Q In this case, there must have been a typewritten copy? remember?
A I can't remember; I'm sorry. follows on the receipt of such an agreement certain orders would follow. In one of these orders perhaps the name OKW was mentioned or the signature?
A I don't know which orders you mean. RSHA and OKW, naturally that office which will Carry through the things that were discussed, and they have to be put into a certain form, and then military orders will be carried out through that. Is such an order known to you, originating from OKW?
A There were orders from the Army. These orders did not come to me. I only received my orders or wishes from the Army.
Q From the Army or from your superior. Therefore, between you, as the leader of this Einsatzgruppe, and the OKW, as an institution, there was no direct connection?
A No direct connection. All I know is that individual orders came in the regular channels to the OKW. after all, OKW covered many?
DR. NELTE: I thank you. to give us a picture about the confidence to be placed in the members of the Cabinet and the ability to keep confidential the most important matters. Please answer this question: Whether the order which is under discussion today regarding the liquidation according to your opinion, was born or originated in the Reichscabinet and whether this order, according to your opinion, was made known to the individual members?
A I am convinced both questions can be answered with "NO". Dr. KUBUSCHOF (Counsel for the Reichscabinet). In addition, I'd like to ask the witness a few questions for the Defendant Speer, for Counsel for Speer is absent and I have undertaken to do this matter for him.
of Hitler, took measures to prevent the destruction of industrial and other institutions? such as Upper Silesia, and so forth? excepting a few spheres in the West, the East was not essential.
Q Another question, that you perhaps may know. Do you know that the Defendant Speer in the middle of February of this year prepared an attempt on Hitler's life? so that he could face his responsibilities and possibly could shield other people who were innocent? DR. KUBUSCHOF: This question will be certified through another witness later.
Q Do you have a clear picture of the 20th of July? of-July, the Defendant Speer was to be kept on as Minister? Do you know any particulars? was a plan of organization and that he was to be in the Department of Armament. be brought back to this: That the Defendant Speer, according to his activity, was, not only in these circles, but otherwise, was considered an expert and a non-political man?
A The question is hard to answer. It is very difficult not to be considered political when you are so close to the political circles of the Reich, and perhaps the most important, the most essential factor from whom decisions evolved.
On the other side, we knew that Minister Speer was not considered a completely political man.
BY DR. MERKEL (Counsel for the Gestapo):
Q Do you know that in April of 1933 the Gestapo was created in Prussia?
A I don't know the month but the year.
Q Do you know what the purpose of the institution was? and extended over the rest of the Reich? institution as a political measure. These political police were established in 1934 or '35, as I recollect, put under the Reichsfuehrer at Essen, and he was to be the political chief, and they were to be under his jurisdiction. The first comprehensive office was the Prussian Gestapo.
After the creation of the main office of the Security Police, the matters of authority were given over to Heydrich and the RSHA carried out the orders.
Q Who instituted this in the various countries?
A I can't tell you. political police?
A Yes, that was present, as far as I remember. For instance, in Berlin, I believe there were institutions like that. before '33?
Q Do you know about how the personnel of the Gestapo was set up? The Gestapo police seems to have been something new. It was not a taking over of the old personnel.
of the Criminal Police were taken over and that the leading men in the State Police offices, that is, in the regular offices of the State Police, for the most part came from the inner administration, and they were taken from the inner administration of the country, and the same thing would hold true for the experts of Amt 4 and the Gestapo.
or not to go into the Gestapo if they did not wish to?
A Positive resistance I would not agree to. Some of them probably adroitly protected themselves, but if anyone was in the inner circle and he was commanded, then as an official he had to go and serve,
Q The members of the Gestapo, were they exclusively or not officials?
A During the war, probably not, but on the whole they were. As far as they were experts they were officials, but in their training they were not officials.
the end of the war? Can you give me that figure? were administrative officials--who were administrative officials who didn't have any executive powers? officials? including girls, and it is not possible for me to give a relative number at this time. But surely the No. 1 experts--one to three. That ratio would not be too high.
Q Do you know anything about who was responsible for it? administration of the concentration camps?
AAccording to my knowledge, no; they did not have anything to do with that. people active, or active in the measures which took place there? state police were only examining magistrates present. mentioned this morning?
DR. MERKEL: I ask the Tribunal, after the return of the Defendant Kaltenbrunner, to give me the opportunity to question this witness again, because I am faced with the information received from Kaltenbrunner.
THE PRESIDENT: I think that the Tribunal will be prepared to allow you to put further questions at a later stage.
DR. MERKEL: Thank you.
DR. EXNER (Counsel of the General Staff and the OKW): later led to an agreement between OKW and OKH on one side, and RSHA on the other, and I am interested in this point: Can you tell us--can you confirm that at these conferences there was a discussion regarding the killing of Jews? Army knew about the liquidations, and I'd like to ask do you know anything regarding the other commanders of the other armies? Fuehrer before the beginning of the Russian campaign.
Q That is a conclusion that you drew?
A It is not a conclusion; it is the repetition of the contents of the speech which, according to Himmler, Hitler gave to the commanding generals. of the Eleventh Army gave. What kind of decrees were they? and the directive at that time was that the liquidation was to take place within two hundred miles of the headquarters. The second time I did not talk about the commander-in-chief but from the oberkommando at Simferopol, and I spoke about it, but I couldn't tell you with certainty from whom this plea or request to accelerate the liquidation at Simferopol came.
Q That is the question that I would like to put to you: With which person of the Eleventh Army did you confer? concerned with that question, but the oberkommando of the Army dealt with the local authorities on that, either through the commanding army station or office which dealt with the Einsatz Commando and was in contact with it, I-C or I-CAO, or from the staff of OQ.
Q Who gave directives for the march? day.
Q As the commander-in-chief at that time you mentioned Mannstein. Was there an order in this matter that was signed by von Mannstein?
conversations with Mannstein and the chief of staff and myself.
Q About the execution of the march?
Q You said that the Army was against these liquidations. Can you tell me any more just how this was evidenced? ation.
Q And how did you know that or recognize that?
A In general discussions. Not only the leading personalities of the Army; they were not the only people against this, but a great part of those who had to carry out these liquidations.
DR. EXNER: Thank you.
PROF. KRAUS (Counsel for Defendant Schacht):
Q Do you know the personnel records regarding Schacht? into a concentration camp? Schacht, who was inimical to the Party, and to take him in this way, because he was connected in this matter and could be -
Q Then Defendant Schacht was known to you as inimical to the Party?
Q Since the year 1937 or 1938. And you had the suspicion that he was active on putsches?
A I didn't personally, because I wasn't concerned with these matters, but he was under suspicion because of his inimical position, as far as I know. But this suspicion did not ripen or mature.
Q Can you tell me who was responsible for the arrest of Schacht?
A That I can't say.
Q Then you don't know whether the arrest came through the Fuehrer or Himmler or through a lesser office?
Q Then you assume through the Fuehrer?
DR. STAHMER (Counsel for Defendant Goering): the taking up of power by Hitler, the Gestapo was created in Prussia, but before that time there was an institution which had a similar mission in Prussia; for instance, especially in Berlin. enemies. You said further, in 1933, after the taking up of power, the other countries of Germany then in 1933, after the taking over of power in the other countries or states of Germany, a political police was instituted? was put into a comprehensive scope under Himmler? chief of all the countries -- of the police of all the countries. 1934? After Himmler took over the leadership it wasn't considered a model? marshal Goering led was not considered a model for the rest of the countries.
DR. KRANZBUEHLER (Counsel for Defendant Raeder): I am speaking for Admiral Raeder. commanders-in-chief in which the Fuehrer instructed the commanders-in-chief regarding the liquidation of Jews -- which conference do you mean by that?
place with the commanders-in-chief.
Q And how about the Wehrmacht commanders-in-chief?
Q Were you there?
A No. I repeat what I heard in a conversation with Himmler.
Q And this conversation with Himmler: was that before many people or was it personal?
Q Private conversation. Did you have the impression that Himmler repeated facts, or do you consider it possible that he told you for your difficult task -- a pep-talk, so to speak? from such motives, but Himmler wanted to give expression that some of the Wehrmacht generals could not deviate from things that had taken place and were taking place, because they had the same responsibility as all the rest.
Q And when did this conversation take place?
DR. SERVATIUS (For the Organization of the Political Leaders): its measures according to the local offices, was there a special channel or were the channels of the organization of the political leaders involved, or was the channel through the leadership corps? Did the orders go to the gauleitung or kreisleitung?
A I don't know about that. I do not consider it possible.
Q You Consider it impossible that the kreisleitung was informed?
A You asked me what the channels were; you did not ask me whether they were informed.
Q Were these departments or offices informed on the others? political experts of the gauleiter, and these officials or people were obligated to give the gauleiter reports on the activity. Just how intensively that was carried on I don't know.
I had no way to check, but it depends on the activity and the kind of cooperation that went on between the gauleiter and his experts. But it is not considered possible that the state police on the whole could not carry on this activity without the responsible Party members -- without their knowledge.
Q Did the reports from low to high work in the same way? these were matters of the Reich; that is, such intensive working together would not exist as between the gauleiter and his men.
Q I also represent the Defendant Sauckel. Do you know about the putting in of alien workers?
DR. BABELL (Counsel for the SS and SD): 30,000 of the Security Police. I would now like to ascertain how these figures are to be interpreted or to be taken. The 3,000 members of the Security Police which you mentioned this morning, are they the complete personnel at that time, or are they only those parties which were active mobile units that you mentioned?
A No. Altogether the total number, including all personnel, including female help. were honorary positions which were used only in the interior -- only in Germany?
A Yes, as a rule, yes; and essential parts where there were not SS or not Party members. the executions for the SD?
A SD had no mobile units. There were only particular members of the SD and they were commanded to work with these offices.
The SD was its own department, and it was not independently working.
Q And how many of those people?
A Very small. In my estimate, two to three SD men were active.
Q Now, I'd like some information and I need information regarding the membership of the SS. Do you have any knowledge? other affiliated groups of the SS talking part? Einsatz group should have a company of Waffen SS.
Q A company. And what was the membership of that company at that time? my particular case, about a hundred men.
Q Were Totenkopfverbaende involved?
A No, and I can't tell you the formations from which the men were taken.
Q Another question you touched upon this morning: When did the SD originate and what were its problems?
Q And the mission at that time?
Q These missions--were they changed in the course of time, and how?
A Yes, after the taking over of power. First, the fighting of the opponents was the prime consideration in some spheres, and information on personnel was equally important. At that time a message service was not real in existence, and the development of the SD proceeding in the internal reporti originated In 1936, 1937. After that time the work progressed from personnel to factual matters, and the reorganization in 1939 when the SD main office was dissolved, the treating of the opponents was eliminated from the work of the SD and the SD work was limited to technical matters; and their work was the measures which the leadership provisions of the Reich and of the states carrie on to observe the results and to determine how the localities involved were reacting, and also to see what the public feeling was in every phase during th war and howpublic opinion was working during the war.
It was, as a matter of fact, the only critical position within the Reich which, according to objectives views, could report to the top leadership positions of the country, and I'd like to point out that the Party did not make legitimate this work up until 1945. The only real legitimate reason for this work came from Goering and after the beginning of the war, at the conferences of the Reich Defense Council, to bring the other departments to point out mistake to the other departments of the Reich, and this critical expert work after 1939 was the chief content of the SD interior department; that was their chief work.
Q Another question. How far did the SD--how were they active in concentration camps? SD Ausland,--I can't give you any information; but the chief, Schellenberg, is present and will give you information. As far as Amt III is concerned, I know no single case that SD Inland had anything to do with concentration camps.
Q Now, a personal question. From whom did you have the orders of the liquidation of the Jews and so forth? From whom, did you receive them? In what form? commando, and the Einsatz commando had had from Berlin those orders from Himmler, Heydrich, and Streckenbach. They had received this order from Berlin, and this order was again given by Himmler at Nikolaiev. how the Einsatz commandos were carrying through the orders that they had received.
Q Did you have no thought, no qualms, against these orders?
Q And how is it that they were carried out regardless? leader can not carry through the orders that were given to him by the leadership of the state.
or attitude was taken by most people involved, not just by you, out of the circle of the men who had to execute these orders? Didn't some of these people tell you that they would like to relieve you of these missions?
A I can't remember any concrete example. Some of these men were relieved whom I didn't believe had the nerve to carry through these executions, and I sent them home.
Q Was the cloak of legality given to these orders?
A I do not exactly understand. The order was given so that the legalit; the matter of legality, was not the concern of the people who had to carry these orders out, because the oath of obedience was upon all these people.
Q The particular man,--could he try to go against these orders?
A No; the result would have been a court martial.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Colonel Amen. Do you wish to re-examine?
COLONEL AMEN: Just a very few questions, Your Honor.
BY COLONEL AMEN:
Q What organization furnished the supplies to the Einsatz Groups?
Q What organization furnished weapons to the Einsatz Groups?
Q What organization assigned personnel to the Einsatz Groups? to the operating members?
COLONEL MEN: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: That will do; thank you.
COLONEL MEN: The next witness to be called by the prosecution is Dieter Wisliceny That witness will be examined by Lt. Col. Smith W. Brookhart, Jr. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q What is your name?
Q Will you repeat this oath? I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient that I will speak the pure truth and will withheld and add nothing (Witness repeated oath in German.)
BY COLONEL BROOKHART:
Q How old are you?
Q Where were you born?
Q Were you a member of the NSDAP?
Q Since what year? again in 1933.
Q Were you a member of the SS?
Q Were you a member of the Gestapo?
Q What rank did you achieve?
Q Do you know Adolf Eichmann?
A Yes, I know Eichmann since 1934. In 1934, at about the same time, we joined the SD together. Until 1937 we were in the same department.
Q Did you know Eichmann personally?
A We knew each other very well. We went to the same school, and I know his family very well.
Q What was his position?
Q Section IV or a subsection, and if so which subsection?
A He led Section IV-A-4. This section had two spheres; the church and the other Jewish problem. IV-A-4-b from the RSHA?
Q Did you prepare this diagram? sections dealing with Jewish problems?
A Yes. It concerns the section at the beginning of the year 1944, and its personnel. the lower Section of the paper, were you personally acquaited with each of the individuals named therein?
A Yes; I knew all of them myself.
Q What was the particular mission of IV-A-4-b of the RSHA? Eichmann had special powers from Mueller, the chief of Amt IV, and from the Chief of the Security Police. He was responsible for the so-called solution of the Jewish question in all of Germany and all occupied countries.
Q Were there distinct periods of activity affecting the Jews? types of activity.
A Yes. Until the year 1940 the general policies were in Germany and in the occupied countries to settle this through planned immigration. The second phase, the concentration of Jews in Poland and the rest of the occupied territories in the East; to have them concentrated in Ghettos. This period was approximately until the beginning of 1942.
And the third period, the final solution of this problem, the planned destruction of the Jewish race. This period covered the period until October 1944; until Himmler gave the order to stop this period of destruction or annihilation.
(A recess was taken from 1520-1530.) BY COL. BROOKHART: R.S.H.A.?
A That was in 1940. Eichmann suggested to me to go to Bradislav as a counsellor on the Jewish question, to the Slovakian Government.
Q Thereafter how long did you hold that position? Greece, and then from March, 1944, until December, 1944, I was with Eichmann in Hungary. In January, 1945, I left Eichmann's apartment. which directed the annihilation of all Jews? taken from Slovakia to Poland as workers, and what the substance of the order was, in the spring of 1942. There was an agreement with the Slovakian Government, and it was requested whether the members of the families of these workers could not also be taken into Poland. Originally Eichmann declined this request. that from now on families could be taken to Poland. Eichman himself in May of 1942 was at Bratislav and taled with the re sponsible members of the Slovakian Government.
He visited Minister Macht and the then Ministerpresident Tugas. At that time he gave the Slovakian Government assurance that these Jews would be treated decently and humanely in Polish ghettos, and this was the specified wish of the Slovakian Government. As a result of this assurance about 35,000 Jews were taken from Czechoslovakia into Poland, The Slovakian Government made efforts to see that these Jews would be treated humanely; especially did they made efforts on behalf of Jews who had been converted to Christianity. expressed the wish that a Slovakian delegation visit the regions in which the Slovakian Jews were, supposedly. This wish of Tugas I transmitted to Eichmann, and the Slovakian Government was notified of this. Eichmann gave an evasive answer. him in Berlin and asked him emphatically to grant the request of the Slovakian Government regarding the Jews. I pointed out to him that in the foreign countries there were rumors that all Jews in Poland would be annihilated. I further pointed out to him that the Pope intervened with the Slovakian Government. I further pointed out to him that such a proceeding, if it actually had taken place, would damage German prestige in the foreign countries, and for these many reasons I please asked him to grant the request; and after a lengthy discussion Eichmann told me that this request to visit the Polish ghettos could be granted under no circumstances. On my asking him "Why"? he said these Jews were not alive for the most part. I asked him who had given this order, an order of that type, and he said that it was an order of Himmler's. I begged him to show me this order, because I couldn't conceive that such an order was actually existing.
Q Where were you at the time of this meeting with Eichmann? Strasse 116, in Eichmann's office.
it would sooth my conscience. He went to a safe and took a small manuscript out of it and showed me a document, or piece of writing, of Himmler's. In this piece of writing there was the following: and the Chief of the Security Police and SD and the Inspector of Concentration Camps were designated as responsible for the execution of this order, which was as follows regarding the final solution of the Jewish problem: Males and females who are able to work should be set aside and they should work in concentration camps. This piece of writing was signed by Himmler himself. There is no possibility of a mistake, because I know Himmler's signature for certain.
Q To whom was the order addressed?
A To the Chief of the Security Police and SD. That means to the office of the Chief of the SD and Security Police.
Q Was there any other addressee on this order? order was addressed to both of these officers.
Q Did the order bear any classification for security purposes?
Q What was the approximate date of this order?
Q Have you personally examined this order in Eichmann's office? myself. "final solution" as used in the order?
A Eichmann explained this concept to me. He said that in this concept of final colution the planned biological destruction of the Jewish race in the eastern territories was meant, and in later discussions on the same subject the same phrase was used again and again.
give him under this order? execution of this order. The execution of this order brought with it all powers and was given to him by the Chief of the Security Police, and he himself was personally responsible for the execution of this order.
Q Did you make any comment to Eichmann about his authority?
A Yes. It was perfectly clear to me that this order was the death sentence for millions of people. I told Eichmann, "God forbid that our enemies should over have the opportunity to do the same to the German people," and Eichmann said I should'nt become sentimental, that it was an order of the Fuehrer and it would have to be carried through. operation of Eichmann's department?
Q For how long?
A How long? This decree was in force until October, 1944. At that time Himmler gave a contrary decree regarding the annihilation of the Jews and rescinded the first order. the order was first issued? Kaltenbrunner? Kaltenbrunner knew Eichmann for a long time. Both came from Linz, and when Kaltenbrunner was made the Chief of the Security Police Eichmann mentioned his satisfaction, and he said to me at that time that he knew Kaltenbrunner personally very well, and that Kaltenbrunner knew his family from Linz.
