The SD was its own department, and it was not independently working.
Q And how many of those people?
A Very small. In my estimate, two to three SD men were active.
Q Now, I'd like some information and I need information regarding the membership of the SS. Do you have any knowledge? other affiliated groups of the SS talking part? Einsatz group should have a company of Waffen SS.
Q A company. And what was the membership of that company at that time? my particular case, about a hundred men.
Q Were Totenkopfverbaende involved?
A No, and I can't tell you the formations from which the men were taken.
Q Another question you touched upon this morning: When did the SD originate and what were its problems?
Q And the mission at that time?
Q These missions--were they changed in the course of time, and how?
A Yes, after the taking over of power. First, the fighting of the opponents was the prime consideration in some spheres, and information on personnel was equally important. At that time a message service was not real in existence, and the development of the SD proceeding in the internal reporti originated In 1936, 1937. After that time the work progressed from personnel to factual matters, and the reorganization in 1939 when the SD main office was dissolved, the treating of the opponents was eliminated from the work of the SD and the SD work was limited to technical matters; and their work was the measures which the leadership provisions of the Reich and of the states carrie on to observe the results and to determine how the localities involved were reacting, and also to see what the public feeling was in every phase during th war and howpublic opinion was working during the war.
It was, as a matter of fact, the only critical position within the Reich which, according to objectives views, could report to the top leadership positions of the country, and I'd like to point out that the Party did not make legitimate this work up until 1945. The only real legitimate reason for this work came from Goering and after the beginning of the war, at the conferences of the Reich Defense Council, to bring the other departments to point out mistake to the other departments of the Reich, and this critical expert work after 1939 was the chief content of the SD interior department; that was their chief work.
Q Another question. How far did the SD--how were they active in concentration camps? SD Ausland,--I can't give you any information; but the chief, Schellenberg, is present and will give you information. As far as Amt III is concerned, I know no single case that SD Inland had anything to do with concentration camps.
Q Now, a personal question. From whom did you have the orders of the liquidation of the Jews and so forth? From whom, did you receive them? In what form? commando, and the Einsatz commando had had from Berlin those orders from Himmler, Heydrich, and Streckenbach. They had received this order from Berlin, and this order was again given by Himmler at Nikolaiev. how the Einsatz commandos were carrying through the orders that they had received.
Q Did you have no thought, no qualms, against these orders?
Q And how is it that they were carried out regardless? leader can not carry through the orders that were given to him by the leadership of the state.
or attitude was taken by most people involved, not just by you, out of the circle of the men who had to execute these orders? Didn't some of these people tell you that they would like to relieve you of these missions?
A I can't remember any concrete example. Some of these men were relieved whom I didn't believe had the nerve to carry through these executions, and I sent them home.
Q Was the cloak of legality given to these orders?
A I do not exactly understand. The order was given so that the legalit; the matter of legality, was not the concern of the people who had to carry these orders out, because the oath of obedience was upon all these people.
Q The particular man,--could he try to go against these orders?
A No; the result would have been a court martial.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Colonel Amen. Do you wish to re-examine?
COLONEL AMEN: Just a very few questions, Your Honor.
BY COLONEL AMEN:
Q What organization furnished the supplies to the Einsatz Groups?
Q What organization furnished weapons to the Einsatz Groups?
Q What organization assigned personnel to the Einsatz Groups? to the operating members?
COLONEL MEN: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: That will do; thank you.
COLONEL MEN: The next witness to be called by the prosecution is Dieter Wisliceny That witness will be examined by Lt. Col. Smith W. Brookhart, Jr. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q What is your name?
Q Will you repeat this oath? I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient that I will speak the pure truth and will withheld and add nothing (Witness repeated oath in German.)
BY COLONEL BROOKHART:
Q How old are you?
Q Where were you born?
Q Were you a member of the NSDAP?
Q Since what year? again in 1933.
Q Were you a member of the SS?
Q Were you a member of the Gestapo?
Q What rank did you achieve?
Q Do you know Adolf Eichmann?
A Yes, I know Eichmann since 1934. In 1934, at about the same time, we joined the SD together. Until 1937 we were in the same department.
Q Did you know Eichmann personally?
A We knew each other very well. We went to the same school, and I know his family very well.
Q What was his position?
Q Section IV or a subsection, and if so which subsection?
A He led Section IV-A-4. This section had two spheres; the church and the other Jewish problem. IV-A-4-b from the RSHA?
Q Did you prepare this diagram? sections dealing with Jewish problems?
A Yes. It concerns the section at the beginning of the year 1944, and its personnel. the lower Section of the paper, were you personally acquaited with each of the individuals named therein?
A Yes; I knew all of them myself.
Q What was the particular mission of IV-A-4-b of the RSHA? Eichmann had special powers from Mueller, the chief of Amt IV, and from the Chief of the Security Police. He was responsible for the so-called solution of the Jewish question in all of Germany and all occupied countries.
Q Were there distinct periods of activity affecting the Jews? types of activity.
A Yes. Until the year 1940 the general policies were in Germany and in the occupied countries to settle this through planned immigration. The second phase, the concentration of Jews in Poland and the rest of the occupied territories in the East; to have them concentrated in Ghettos. This period was approximately until the beginning of 1942.
And the third period, the final solution of this problem, the planned destruction of the Jewish race. This period covered the period until October 1944; until Himmler gave the order to stop this period of destruction or annihilation.
(A recess was taken from 1520-1530.) BY COL. BROOKHART: R.S.H.A.?
A That was in 1940. Eichmann suggested to me to go to Bradislav as a counsellor on the Jewish question, to the Slovakian Government.
Q Thereafter how long did you hold that position? Greece, and then from March, 1944, until December, 1944, I was with Eichmann in Hungary. In January, 1945, I left Eichmann's apartment. which directed the annihilation of all Jews? taken from Slovakia to Poland as workers, and what the substance of the order was, in the spring of 1942. There was an agreement with the Slovakian Government, and it was requested whether the members of the families of these workers could not also be taken into Poland. Originally Eichmann declined this request. that from now on families could be taken to Poland. Eichman himself in May of 1942 was at Bratislav and taled with the re sponsible members of the Slovakian Government.
He visited Minister Macht and the then Ministerpresident Tugas. At that time he gave the Slovakian Government assurance that these Jews would be treated decently and humanely in Polish ghettos, and this was the specified wish of the Slovakian Government. As a result of this assurance about 35,000 Jews were taken from Czechoslovakia into Poland, The Slovakian Government made efforts to see that these Jews would be treated humanely; especially did they made efforts on behalf of Jews who had been converted to Christianity. expressed the wish that a Slovakian delegation visit the regions in which the Slovakian Jews were, supposedly. This wish of Tugas I transmitted to Eichmann, and the Slovakian Government was notified of this. Eichmann gave an evasive answer. him in Berlin and asked him emphatically to grant the request of the Slovakian Government regarding the Jews. I pointed out to him that in the foreign countries there were rumors that all Jews in Poland would be annihilated. I further pointed out to him that the Pope intervened with the Slovakian Government. I further pointed out to him that such a proceeding, if it actually had taken place, would damage German prestige in the foreign countries, and for these many reasons I please asked him to grant the request; and after a lengthy discussion Eichmann told me that this request to visit the Polish ghettos could be granted under no circumstances. On my asking him "Why"? he said these Jews were not alive for the most part. I asked him who had given this order, an order of that type, and he said that it was an order of Himmler's. I begged him to show me this order, because I couldn't conceive that such an order was actually existing.
Q Where were you at the time of this meeting with Eichmann? Strasse 116, in Eichmann's office.
it would sooth my conscience. He went to a safe and took a small manuscript out of it and showed me a document, or piece of writing, of Himmler's. In this piece of writing there was the following: and the Chief of the Security Police and SD and the Inspector of Concentration Camps were designated as responsible for the execution of this order, which was as follows regarding the final solution of the Jewish problem: Males and females who are able to work should be set aside and they should work in concentration camps. This piece of writing was signed by Himmler himself. There is no possibility of a mistake, because I know Himmler's signature for certain.
Q To whom was the order addressed?
A To the Chief of the Security Police and SD. That means to the office of the Chief of the SD and Security Police.
Q Was there any other addressee on this order? order was addressed to both of these officers.
Q Did the order bear any classification for security purposes?
Q What was the approximate date of this order?
Q Have you personally examined this order in Eichmann's office? myself. "final solution" as used in the order?
A Eichmann explained this concept to me. He said that in this concept of final colution the planned biological destruction of the Jewish race in the eastern territories was meant, and in later discussions on the same subject the same phrase was used again and again.
give him under this order? execution of this order. The execution of this order brought with it all powers and was given to him by the Chief of the Security Police, and he himself was personally responsible for the execution of this order.
Q Did you make any comment to Eichmann about his authority?
A Yes. It was perfectly clear to me that this order was the death sentence for millions of people. I told Eichmann, "God forbid that our enemies should over have the opportunity to do the same to the German people," and Eichmann said I should'nt become sentimental, that it was an order of the Fuehrer and it would have to be carried through. operation of Eichmann's department?
Q For how long?
A How long? This decree was in force until October, 1944. At that time Himmler gave a contrary decree regarding the annihilation of the Jews and rescinded the first order. the order was first issued? Kaltenbrunner? Kaltenbrunner knew Eichmann for a long time. Both came from Linz, and when Kaltenbrunner was made the Chief of the Security Police Eichmann mentioned his satisfaction, and he said to me at that time that he knew Kaltenbrunner personally very well, and that Kaltenbrunner knew his family from Linz.
Kaltenbrunner as being helpful to him?
he could at any time go to Kaltenbrunner personally. He didn't need to do that, since his connection with his Chief, Mueller, was very cood.
Q. Have you been present when Eichmann and Kaltenbrunner met?
A. Yes, at one time I saw a hearty greeting between Eichmann and Kaltenbrunner and that was in February, 1945, in Eichmann's office at Berlin. Kaltenbrunner came every noon for his noon meal to the Kurfuersten Strasse 116, and there gathered the Chiefs for company; and on one occasion like that I personally saw that Kaltenbrunner greeted Eichmann heartily and asked about the health of Eichmann's family in Linz.
Q. In connection with the administration of his office, do you know to what extent Eichmann submitted matters to Heydrich and later to Kaltenbrunner for approval?
A. The ordinary channel of Eichmann to Kaltenbrunner was through Mueller, mid reports to Kaltenbrunner, as far as I know, from time to time were made by Eichmann and submitted to Kaltenbrunner. I also know that in the summer of 1944 he made a personal report to Kaltenbrunner.
Q. Did you have an opportunity to examine files in Eichmann's office?
A. Yes, frequently I had the chance to look into the files of Eichmann's office and I know that Eichmann questioned as to which pertained to his own mission and these he treated with great care. He was a decided bureaucrat, and any conference with any of his superiors was put down in writing and a record made. He always repeated to me that the most important thing was for him to be covered from above at all times. He himself shied away from personal responsibility and was very careful to have the responsibility with his superiors, such as Kaltenbrunner and Mueller.
Q. In the case of a typical report going from Eichmann's department through Mueller, Kaltenbrunner, and to Himmler, have you seen copies of such reports in Eichmann's file?
A. Yes, such copies were in the files, and the regular channel was as follows: Eichmann had a sketch made through an expert or he made it himself, this sketch being to Grupenfuehrer Mueller, his superior, his chief.
Mueller either signed it himself or left the signature to Eichmann. In Meuller signed them.
When the report was signed without change by Mueller, it was returned to Eichmann's office and then the final copy was made, together with a copy.
This original went to Mueller for his signature and from then on it was sent to Kaltenbrunner or Himmler.
In some himself signed those reports, and I saw conies with Kaltenbrunner's
Q. Turning now to countries in which measures were taken affecting of such operations?
A. I have personal knowledge of all measures which were taken in Czechoslovakia.
I am also informed on the evacuation of Jews from Greece and the evacuation from Hungary.
I also know about certain measures in Bulgaria and in Croatia.
The measures taken in other countries I heard about of course, but didn't have a clear picture.
Q. Considering the case of Slovakia, you have already made reference to the 17,000 Jews specially selected who were sent from Slovakia.
Will in Slovakia?
A. I mentioned before that the first 17,000 laborers were Jews;
about 35,000 Jews, including families, followed. About August or beginning unsatisfactory answer.
This state of affairs went on until 1944; from
Q. What happened to the first group of 17,000 specially-selected worke
A. This group wasn't annihilated, but was used for labor purposes
Q. How do you know that?
A. I know this because the Commander of Auschwitz in 1944 came to Hungary and made a remark to that effect to me.
He said at that time that
Q. What was his name?
A. The Commandant of Auschwitz -- his name was Hoess.
Q. What happened to the approximately 35,000 members of the families of the Jewish workers?
A. They were treated according to the order showed me in August of 1942.
Part of them were left alive if they could be used for work. The
Q. How do you know this?
A. I know that from Eichmann and from Hoess, according to the con
Q. What portion of this group remained alive?
A. Hoess gave me the figures in a conversation with Eichmann, at
Q. Referring now to the 25,000 Jews who remained in Slovakia until September of 1944, do you knwo what was done with them?
A. After the Slovak insurrection in the fall of 1944, Hauptsturm Fuehrer Brunner sent through a man of Eichmann's, and my wish to go to Slovakia was turned down by Eichmann.
Brunner, with the help of German Auschwitz.
According to Brunner's statement, about 14,000 were involved.
from Slovakia? cause this order was not rescinded until some weeks after this all took place. knowledge, will you tell the Tribunal of the actions there in a chronological sequence? told me that I was to go to Saloniki and in connection with the German military administration at Macedonia to solve the Jewish problem there. Eichmann's permanent representative was in Saloniki and my departure for Saloniki was February '42. The end of January '42, I was told by Eichmann that for the technical execution of all actions in Greece, Brunner was designated and he was to go with me to Saloniki. Brunner was not under me. He acted independently. In February '42 we went to Saloniki and with the military administration took up our connections as the first action.
Q Who was the military administration that you dealt with?
A It was Dr. Merkel, the chief of the military administration.
Q I believe you used 1942 once or more in reference; did you at all times refer to 1943 in dealing with Greece?
A That is a mistake. These happenings in Greece took place in '43.
Q What arrangements were made through Dr. Merkel and what actions were taken? parts of the city. In Saloniki there were about 60,000 Jews of Spanish descent. Beginning March then, after this concentration had taken place, there was a wire from Eichmann to Brunner directing him for the immediate transportation of Jews of Saloniki and Macedonia to transport them to Auschwitz. With this order Brunner and I went to the military administration. No exceptions were to be made and the measures were carried through as planned. Brunner himself led this action in Saloniki. The transports necessary were requisitioned from the Wehrmacht Commandant, and Brunner, all he had to do was mention how many cars he needed and what time he needed them.
Merkel or the military administration? wanted about -- after this construction was completed, the Jews were returned. Just like the rest, they were transported to Auschwitz and these works were carried out in the frame of the Organization Todt. Organization Todt? transport? cases of illness, but in some of the quarters, parts of the city which were inhabited by Jews a certain kind of typhus and other infections contagious diseases, especially Tuberculosis of the lungs.
this typhus? transportation of all Jews, and told him about these cases of typhus. He did not respond to this and ordered the immediate beginning of this transportation of the Jews. Greece?
A There were more than 50,000 Jews. I believe that 54,000 Jews were transported from Saloniki and Macedonia.
Q What was the basis for your figure?
A I, myself, saw a comprehensive report of Brunner's to Eichmann, which was drawn up after these Jews had been transported. Brunner left Saloniki at the end of May, '43. From the beginning of April until May I was not at Saloniki, and Brunner carried out this action alone. Saloniki?
Q And how many were shipped in each transport? thousand in each.
Q What type of railway equipment was used for these shipments?
A Field freight cars. But the evacuees received food to last for about ten days. There was chiefly bread, olives, and other dried foods, also water and a few other hygienic or sanitary means.
Q Did you furnish this railway transportation?
A Transports were furnished by the Wehrmacht. That means the cars and the locomotives. The foodstuffs were furnished by the military administration. this transportation, and who in that sub-section dealt with transportation?
THE PRESIDENT: You needn't go into this in such great detail.
LT. COL. BROOKHART : If your Honor please, this particular question, I believe, will have a bearing on the implications involving the military administration, but I can cut down on the other details.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you've spent some considerable time in describing how many of them were concentrated. Whether it was 60,000 or how many were kept for the Todt Organization--all those details are really unnecessary.
LT. COL. BROOKHART : Very well, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: You must use your own discretion about how you cut down. I don't know what details or what facts you are going to prove.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: If your Honor please, this witness, as he has testified, is competent to cover practically all details in these Balkan countries. It is not our wish to add accumulative evidence, but his testimony does furnish a complete story from the Head Office to the Reichssicherheitshauptamt through the field operations and through the final solution.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, what is he going to prove about these 50,000 Jews?
LT. COL. BROOKHART: An ultimate disposition, sir, as far as he knows.
THE PRESIDENT: What is he going to prove?
LT. COL. BROOKHART: His ultimate disposition at Auschwitz, as far As he knows.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you can go on to what ultimately happened to them then.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: What was the destination of these transports of Jews from Greece?
Auschwitz from Greece?
upon to furnish their own subsistence?
A I didn't understand the question exactly.
THE PRESIDENT: The matter 'brought to the final solution' I suppose means death.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: Your Honor, this witness will in the Greek National Bank for the subsistence of these people:
administration. That is all I have hope to prove by this question.
LT. COL. BROOKHART TO THE WITNESS: Is that a correct statement of your testimony?
A Yes. The cash which the Jews possessed was taken away were deported or transported away from Saloniki.
Then this account was taken over by the military administration.
About final solution:
what do you mean by that?
that they were destroyed biologically. As I could gather from my conversations with Eichmann, this annihilation took place in death chambers. The bodies were burned, or cremated.
COL. BROOKHART: If your Honor please, this witness is able to testify as to actions in Hungary, involving approximately five hundred thousand Jews.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on, then. You must use your own discretion. I cannot present your case for you.
COL. BROOKHART: I have no desire to present cumulative evidence. actions taken there and your participation? personally with a great staff to Hungary, through an order which was signed by the Chief of the SD. I was named to Eichmann's staff. Eichmann began his activities at the end of March, 1944. His activities in Hungary, that is. He worked with the members of the Hungarian government. The first measures which Eichmann, in connection with these officials, took, was a concentration of the Jews in Hungary in certain spots. These measures began in a zone-like arrangement and had their beginning in the so-called Carpatho-Russia and Siebenburgen.
The beginning of this action was the middle of April, 1944. In Carpathia, Russia, more than two hundred thousand Russians were covered by this order and through that, in the small towns and rural regions, where the Jews were concentrated, almost impossible conditions as to food and shelter arose, and from this situation arose the suggestion of Eichmann to the Hungarians that those Jews be transported to Auschwitz and other concentration camps. be submitted to him. This request was made by State Secretary Von Backer, and the Hungarian police carried through this evacuation.
Eichmann himself made me a liaison officer by Lt. Col. Ferency, who was appointed from the Hungarian Ministry to assist in this evacuation. The transporting of these Jews from Hungary began in May 1944 and the transporting away began with the Carpathian district of Russia, Siebenburgen, North Hungary and South Hungary and in West Hungary.
Budapest was to be evacuated by the end of June but this did not take place because Von Horthy did not permit it. This action included about 450 thousand Jews. A second action took place.
Q. Will you tell the Tribunal what, if anything, was done about organizing Einsatzgruppe to act in Hungary on the Jewish question? Security Police and SD was made up at Mauthausen by Linz. Eichmann himself had special command of all people who had special functions in his sphere, and a special action Kommando was collected at Mauthausen. Dr. Geschke was head of this Gruppe in business matters.
Q What was the meaning of the designation "Special Action Kommando Eichmann", in relation to the movement into Hungary?
A Eichmann's activities in Hungary included all matters connected with the Jewish problem. Eichmann organized? Eichmann was subordinate to Geschke, and Eichmann reported on action which he undertook directly to Berlin, either to Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, or, in more important things, to the Chief of the Security Police; that was Kaltenbrunner. what, if any, contact was made by the Joint Distribution Committee on Jewish Affairs, with Eichmann's representative? with Eichmann and to try to prevent the destiny of the Hungarian Jews, I, myself, facilitated this connection with Eichmann. I wanted to find a means that this half-million Jews -- that the Jews in Hungary should not be covered by the measures mentioned. requested that the Jews remain in Hungary. Those suggestions were specially of a financial nature. Eichmann saw that he had cause to give these suggestions to Himmler, although he hesitated to do that.