Q. Have you had an opportunity to discuss with any one of your or as to the work of those machines?
A. I still cannot understand the sense of the question.
Q. Have you had an opportunity to discuss with any one of your wagons from *---* as to their performance?
A. I cannot recall any specific discussion of that.
Q. Have you had any information with regard to the fact that members use those murder wagons?
A. The Einsatz group made use of the gas vans.
Q. No, I have something else in mind. I want to clarify the question troops did not like that form of execution and preferred others instead?
A. They preferred to use the gas vans to shooting?
Q. Just the other way, that they preferred shootings to the execution to the murder wagons?
A. As I said before,
Q. For what reasons did they prefer shootings and executions by firing squads to the use of murder wagons?
A. As I said before, the unloading of the vans subjected the men in the
Q. What do you have in mind under the circumstances, from the psychological point of view?
A. As far as I can remember the specific psychological, circumstances,
Q. Do you want to say that the victims very clearly showed their sufferings which they had been submitted to?
A. Do you mean during the killing in gas vans?
Q. Yes.
that the victims of killing in the gas vans felt no pain. question was that the unloading of those murder wagons had a very bad impression on the members of the Kommandos? vans were dirtied and so on.
COLONEL POKROVSKY: At the present stage of the trial I have no more questions for this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the prosecutor for the French Republic desire to put any questions to the witness? at a later date?
DR. KAUFMANN (Counsel for Defendant Kaltenbrunner): Perhaps I could ask a few questions now with the request that I should be allowed to make my cross examination later after I have already spoken to Kaltenbrunner.
THE WITNESS: May I address a request to the Tribunal? May I sit down?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I saw Kaltenbrunner for the first time on a trip from Berlin to the headquarters of Himmler at the time when Kaltenbrunner was to be appointed Chief of the RSHA and SD. Previous to that I simply knew the fact of his existence. BY DR. KAUFMANN: personally, or official conversations after he had become Chief of the RSHA?
Q Do you know his attitude, as an example, toward the Jewish question?
A I am not familiar with any particular attitude of Kaltenbrunner's.
Q How about the question of the Church?
the State. He agreed, or he was of the opinion that an understanding should be reached with the Church. tion of civilians, parachute troops, and so on? he supported the direction that this work was taking. had no authority to carry out executive orders, for example, that he had no authority to put people into concentration camps or to take them from concentration camps, that those things were handled exclusively by Himmler and Mueller? answer it concretely. The question will have to be broken down. executive action, I must answer in the affirmative. If you then name Himmler and Mueller to the exclusion of Kaltenbrunner, then I must point out that according to the organization of the RSHA Mueller was a subordinate of Kaltenbrunner, and consquently orders from Himmler to Mueller were also orders to Kaltenbrunner and Mueller was obliged to inform Kaltenbrunner of them. concentration camps -- the final decision as regards entry into or departure from was essentially determined by Himmler. I can say that I know absolutely that the expression that often came up, namely, "to the last washerwoman" -- Himmler had the final decision. Whether or not Kaltenbrunner had no authority at all in this regard, I can make no statement.
Q Have you seen original orders of Kaltenbrunner's that ordered the liquidation of sabotage groups and so on?
Q Do you know, either directly or indirectly, that after Heydrich's death a change, which to be sure was not a formal change, but nevertheless a change, took place, as a result of which a milder course was taken by Kaltenbrunner ?
A I couldn't answer that question specifically.
Q I withdraw that question. Here is another question. East?
Q Who gave you this order?
Q That was before the time?
DR. KAUFMANN: I have no further questions at this time. BY THE TRIBUNAL (GENERAL NIKITCHENKO): the Einsatzgruppe was operating? As far as I remember, a fighting Kommando was made of it under the leadership of Bierkamp. Thereafter, the Einsatz Group was, as far as I remember, entirely dissolved. It was amalgamated into the general government and a large number of its personnel were taken thither.
Q What was your occupation after this happened? the retreat from the Caucasus. Thereafter, it took over functions similar to those performed by the Army and to the immediate orders of the Chief of the Kripo in the Ukraine. way I understand, but the function which it had before it continued to perform?
A No, that is not true. It became an actual fighting unit.
Q What does it mean? Against whom were the military actions directed?
Q Or can you say more particularly what this group was actually doing?
it has conducted operations.
A I have no concrete experiences myself. It was used for reconaissance against the partisans and also was actually used as a fighting unit militarily.
Q- But did it carry out any executions? period of time for it now entered into territories in which that sort of activity no longer came into question. of annihilation of the Jews and the Kommissars, is that correct?
Q And in what group did you consider the children? For what reason were the children massacred? its entirety.
Q Including children?
Q Were allthe Jewish children murdered?
Q The children of those whom you considered as children of Kommissars? inquired after. the group carried cut? the annihilation of thousands of people, which you did? You, personally, did you submit any report? and the Einsatz Group informed the RSHA.
Q Where to?
Q Personally?
Q What was the name of this police officer? Can you name his name? Can you tell his name?
Q After Heydrich?
A I didn't experience what happened after that, but that was the standing order. Heydrich.
AAfter Heydrich's death I was no longer serving, but the order, of course, continued in effect. Heydrich left or were discontinued? formity with the policy of the German Government or was it against it? Do you understand the question?
A Yes. One must, however, discriminate. The order for the liquidation came from the Fuehrer of the Reich and it waste be carried out by the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler. the German Party and the German Government, or was it contrary to it?
A Politics is already activity. It was a policy that was determined by the Fuehrer. If you ask whether this activity corresponds to the idea of National Socialism, then I should deny that. BY THE PRESIDENT: Jewish victims by the Jewish Council of Elders.
Q Did the Jewish Council of Elders settle who were to be killed?
Q How did they know who was to be killed? them. them?
A That was done in various ways. As far as I remember, the Council of Elders was given the order to collect valuables.
Q So the Jewish Council of Elders wouldn't know whether or not they were to be killed?
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now until five minutes past two. (Whereupon at 1250 hours the hearing of the Tribunal adjourned to reconvene at 1405 hours).
Military Tribunal, in the matter of: The (TESTIMONY OF OTTO OHLENDORF, CONTINUED) BY THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): the Einsatz Groups and the Army, do you know whether or not the functions and purposes of the Einsatz Groups were described in the agreement?
Did the agreement say what the Groups were going to do?
Q Do you understand the question?
A Yes. I cannot say that exactly, whether there was a general sentence in the agreement regarding the Security Police activity in this operational sphere, but I am certain that regarding the activity of liquidation, there was nothing said. of all Jews. Was that order in writing?
Q Do you know who gave the order?
A Is this question regarding the activity of the Einsatzgruppe? Heydrich, Streckenbach to the Einsatzgruppe verbally, and the second time repeated by Himmler personally.
Q Did a similar order go to the Army?
THE PRESIDENT: Now, do any of the Defendants Counsel wish to crossexamine this witness?
BY DR. NELTE (Counsel for Defendant Keitel):
Russian campaign, there were conferences regarding the missions or activities of the Einsatzgruppe and Einsatzkommandos.
Were you personally present at these conferences? was not the mission of the Einsatzgruppe but the structure of the mobile units for an activity in the scope of the operating units of the Army. the Army? hand and the OKW and OKH on the ether was made. Are you familiar with the distinction between the OKH and the OKW?
Q Who from OKW was present at these conferences? but these conferences were led by Heydrich on one hand and by his deputy Schellenberg, on the other side. he talked about the question and he mentioned General Quartiermeister Wagner as that person with whom he was dealing. Can you remember whether this was true at these conferences, the conferences of which you are speaking? remember from these conferences as a name that was mentioned in the conferences. connected with OKW. You cannot mention any personality which was really representative of OKW?
A No, I cannot. I only said that I remembered the letterhead OKW-OKH. I remember these letterheads, and the double title meant to me that there were some conferences with Canaris, and some agreement with Canaris would be material in this agreement, and the letterhead was strange to me, and I explained the letterhead that way. There was a matter of plot connected with this. A general letterhead, OKW-OKH, there was no such thing.
Q In this case, there must have been a typewritten copy? remember?
A I can't remember; I'm sorry. follows on the receipt of such an agreement certain orders would follow. In one of these orders perhaps the name OKW was mentioned or the signature?
A I don't know which orders you mean. RSHA and OKW, naturally that office which will Carry through the things that were discussed, and they have to be put into a certain form, and then military orders will be carried out through that. Is such an order known to you, originating from OKW?
A There were orders from the Army. These orders did not come to me. I only received my orders or wishes from the Army.
Q From the Army or from your superior. Therefore, between you, as the leader of this Einsatzgruppe, and the OKW, as an institution, there was no direct connection?
A No direct connection. All I know is that individual orders came in the regular channels to the OKW. after all, OKW covered many?
DR. NELTE: I thank you. to give us a picture about the confidence to be placed in the members of the Cabinet and the ability to keep confidential the most important matters. Please answer this question: Whether the order which is under discussion today regarding the liquidation according to your opinion, was born or originated in the Reichscabinet and whether this order, according to your opinion, was made known to the individual members?
A I am convinced both questions can be answered with "NO". Dr. KUBUSCHOF (Counsel for the Reichscabinet). In addition, I'd like to ask the witness a few questions for the Defendant Speer, for Counsel for Speer is absent and I have undertaken to do this matter for him.
of Hitler, took measures to prevent the destruction of industrial and other institutions? such as Upper Silesia, and so forth? excepting a few spheres in the West, the East was not essential.
Q Another question, that you perhaps may know. Do you know that the Defendant Speer in the middle of February of this year prepared an attempt on Hitler's life? so that he could face his responsibilities and possibly could shield other people who were innocent? DR. KUBUSCHOF: This question will be certified through another witness later.
Q Do you have a clear picture of the 20th of July? of-July, the Defendant Speer was to be kept on as Minister? Do you know any particulars? was a plan of organization and that he was to be in the Department of Armament. be brought back to this: That the Defendant Speer, according to his activity, was, not only in these circles, but otherwise, was considered an expert and a non-political man?
A The question is hard to answer. It is very difficult not to be considered political when you are so close to the political circles of the Reich, and perhaps the most important, the most essential factor from whom decisions evolved.
On the other side, we knew that Minister Speer was not considered a completely political man.
BY DR. MERKEL (Counsel for the Gestapo):
Q Do you know that in April of 1933 the Gestapo was created in Prussia?
A I don't know the month but the year.
Q Do you know what the purpose of the institution was? and extended over the rest of the Reich? institution as a political measure. These political police were established in 1934 or '35, as I recollect, put under the Reichsfuehrer at Essen, and he was to be the political chief, and they were to be under his jurisdiction. The first comprehensive office was the Prussian Gestapo.
After the creation of the main office of the Security Police, the matters of authority were given over to Heydrich and the RSHA carried out the orders.
Q Who instituted this in the various countries?
A I can't tell you. political police?
A Yes, that was present, as far as I remember. For instance, in Berlin, I believe there were institutions like that. before '33?
Q Do you know about how the personnel of the Gestapo was set up? The Gestapo police seems to have been something new. It was not a taking over of the old personnel.
of the Criminal Police were taken over and that the leading men in the State Police offices, that is, in the regular offices of the State Police, for the most part came from the inner administration, and they were taken from the inner administration of the country, and the same thing would hold true for the experts of Amt 4 and the Gestapo.
or not to go into the Gestapo if they did not wish to?
A Positive resistance I would not agree to. Some of them probably adroitly protected themselves, but if anyone was in the inner circle and he was commanded, then as an official he had to go and serve,
Q The members of the Gestapo, were they exclusively or not officials?
A During the war, probably not, but on the whole they were. As far as they were experts they were officials, but in their training they were not officials.
the end of the war? Can you give me that figure? were administrative officials--who were administrative officials who didn't have any executive powers? officials? including girls, and it is not possible for me to give a relative number at this time. But surely the No. 1 experts--one to three. That ratio would not be too high.
Q Do you know anything about who was responsible for it? administration of the concentration camps?
AAccording to my knowledge, no; they did not have anything to do with that. people active, or active in the measures which took place there? state police were only examining magistrates present. mentioned this morning?
DR. MERKEL: I ask the Tribunal, after the return of the Defendant Kaltenbrunner, to give me the opportunity to question this witness again, because I am faced with the information received from Kaltenbrunner.
THE PRESIDENT: I think that the Tribunal will be prepared to allow you to put further questions at a later stage.
DR. MERKEL: Thank you.
DR. EXNER (Counsel of the General Staff and the OKW): later led to an agreement between OKW and OKH on one side, and RSHA on the other, and I am interested in this point: Can you tell us--can you confirm that at these conferences there was a discussion regarding the killing of Jews? Army knew about the liquidations, and I'd like to ask do you know anything regarding the other commanders of the other armies? Fuehrer before the beginning of the Russian campaign.
Q That is a conclusion that you drew?
A It is not a conclusion; it is the repetition of the contents of the speech which, according to Himmler, Hitler gave to the commanding generals. of the Eleventh Army gave. What kind of decrees were they? and the directive at that time was that the liquidation was to take place within two hundred miles of the headquarters. The second time I did not talk about the commander-in-chief but from the oberkommando at Simferopol, and I spoke about it, but I couldn't tell you with certainty from whom this plea or request to accelerate the liquidation at Simferopol came.
Q That is the question that I would like to put to you: With which person of the Eleventh Army did you confer? concerned with that question, but the oberkommando of the Army dealt with the local authorities on that, either through the commanding army station or office which dealt with the Einsatz Commando and was in contact with it, I-C or I-CAO, or from the staff of OQ.
Q Who gave directives for the march? day.
Q As the commander-in-chief at that time you mentioned Mannstein. Was there an order in this matter that was signed by von Mannstein?
conversations with Mannstein and the chief of staff and myself.
Q About the execution of the march?
Q You said that the Army was against these liquidations. Can you tell me any more just how this was evidenced? ation.
Q And how did you know that or recognize that?
A In general discussions. Not only the leading personalities of the Army; they were not the only people against this, but a great part of those who had to carry out these liquidations.
DR. EXNER: Thank you.
PROF. KRAUS (Counsel for Defendant Schacht):
Q Do you know the personnel records regarding Schacht? into a concentration camp? Schacht, who was inimical to the Party, and to take him in this way, because he was connected in this matter and could be -
Q Then Defendant Schacht was known to you as inimical to the Party?
Q Since the year 1937 or 1938. And you had the suspicion that he was active on putsches?
A I didn't personally, because I wasn't concerned with these matters, but he was under suspicion because of his inimical position, as far as I know. But this suspicion did not ripen or mature.
Q Can you tell me who was responsible for the arrest of Schacht?
A That I can't say.
Q Then you don't know whether the arrest came through the Fuehrer or Himmler or through a lesser office?
Q Then you assume through the Fuehrer?
DR. STAHMER (Counsel for Defendant Goering): the taking up of power by Hitler, the Gestapo was created in Prussia, but before that time there was an institution which had a similar mission in Prussia; for instance, especially in Berlin. enemies. You said further, in 1933, after the taking up of power, the other countries of Germany then in 1933, after the taking over of power in the other countries or states of Germany, a political police was instituted? was put into a comprehensive scope under Himmler? chief of all the countries -- of the police of all the countries. 1934? After Himmler took over the leadership it wasn't considered a model? marshal Goering led was not considered a model for the rest of the countries.
DR. KRANZBUEHLER (Counsel for Defendant Raeder): I am speaking for Admiral Raeder. commanders-in-chief in which the Fuehrer instructed the commanders-in-chief regarding the liquidation of Jews -- which conference do you mean by that?
place with the commanders-in-chief.
Q And how about the Wehrmacht commanders-in-chief?
Q Were you there?
A No. I repeat what I heard in a conversation with Himmler.
Q And this conversation with Himmler: was that before many people or was it personal?
Q Private conversation. Did you have the impression that Himmler repeated facts, or do you consider it possible that he told you for your difficult task -- a pep-talk, so to speak? from such motives, but Himmler wanted to give expression that some of the Wehrmacht generals could not deviate from things that had taken place and were taking place, because they had the same responsibility as all the rest.
Q And when did this conversation take place?
DR. SERVATIUS (For the Organization of the Political Leaders): its measures according to the local offices, was there a special channel or were the channels of the organization of the political leaders involved, or was the channel through the leadership corps? Did the orders go to the gauleitung or kreisleitung?
A I don't know about that. I do not consider it possible.
Q You Consider it impossible that the kreisleitung was informed?
A You asked me what the channels were; you did not ask me whether they were informed.
Q Were these departments or offices informed on the others? political experts of the gauleiter, and these officials or people were obligated to give the gauleiter reports on the activity. Just how intensively that was carried on I don't know.
I had no way to check, but it depends on the activity and the kind of cooperation that went on between the gauleiter and his experts. But it is not considered possible that the state police on the whole could not carry on this activity without the responsible Party members -- without their knowledge.
Q Did the reports from low to high work in the same way? these were matters of the Reich; that is, such intensive working together would not exist as between the gauleiter and his men.
Q I also represent the Defendant Sauckel. Do you know about the putting in of alien workers?
DR. BABELL (Counsel for the SS and SD): 30,000 of the Security Police. I would now like to ascertain how these figures are to be interpreted or to be taken. The 3,000 members of the Security Police which you mentioned this morning, are they the complete personnel at that time, or are they only those parties which were active mobile units that you mentioned?
A No. Altogether the total number, including all personnel, including female help. were honorary positions which were used only in the interior -- only in Germany?
A Yes, as a rule, yes; and essential parts where there were not SS or not Party members. the executions for the SD?
A SD had no mobile units. There were only particular members of the SD and they were commanded to work with these offices.