Q The regiment was very widely drawn out, was it not ?
AYes.
QHow far, approximately ?
AIn the entire area of the army group center, Orel shall we say, OrelVitebsk -- in that entire area they were widely dispersed.
QHow many kilometers was that, approximately ?
AFour or five hundred kilometers.
QDo you know Judge Advocate General Dr. Konrad of the Army group ?
AYes.
ADo you know whether he, in 1943, interrogated the local inhabitants about the date when the Polish officers were supposed to have been shot in the wood ?
ANo, I do not know.
DR. STAHMER :I have no further questions, Mr. President. BY THE PRESIDENT :
QWere there any Einsatzkommandos in the Katyn area during the time that you were there ?
ANothing has ever come to my knowledge about that.
QDid you ever hear of an order to shoot Soviet commissars ?
AI only heard of that by heresay at the time.
QWhen ?
AProbably at the beginning of the Russian campaign, I think.
QBefore the campaign started or after ?
AI cannot remember having heard anything like that before the beginning of the campaign.
Q Who were to carry out that order?
1 July A LJG 16-1
AIn that sense, signal troops are not really fighting troops. Therefore, that probably had nothing to do with that, and therefore, we were in no way affected by the order.
QI did not ask you that. I asked you who had to carry it out.
AThose who came into contact with those people, presumably.
QAnybody who came in contact with Russian Commissars had to kill them; is that it?
ANo, I assume that the fighting troops, the actual fighting troops who were right out front and therefore had immediate contact with the enemy could be the only ones who were affected by that order. A signal regiment did not come into a position to to meet Commissars. That is probably why we were not mentioned in the order or affected by it.
THE PRESIDENT:The witness can retire.
COLONEL SMIRNOV:Mr. President, I ask permission to call as witness the former deputy mayor of the city of Smolensk during the German occupation, Professor of Astronomy, Bazilevsky Boris.
---------------
BAZILEVSKYBORIS, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
QWill you state your full name, please?
AProfessor Bazilevsky Boris.
QWill you make this form of oath:
I, a citizen of the USSR, called as a witness in this case, solemnly promise and swear before the High Tribunal to say all that I know about this case and to add or to withhold nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT:You may sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
COLONEL SMIRNOV:With the permission of the Tribunal, I should like to start with my interrogation, Mr. President.
1 July A LJG 16-2
THE PRESIDENT:Certainly. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
QPlease tell us, witness, what your occupation was before the German occupation and where you were living in Smolensk.
ABefore the occupation of S molensk and the surrounding region, I lived in the city of Smolensk and was professor first at the Smolensk University and then-
QPlease speak slowly.
A --and then of the Smolensk Pedogogical Institute, and at the same time I was Director of the Smolensk Astronomical Observatory. For twenty years I was the Dean of the Physics and Mathematics Faculty, and in the last years I was deputy of the Director of the Scientific part of the Institute.
QHow many years did you live in Smolensk altogether?
AFrom 1919.
QDo you know what the Katyn Woods was?
AYes.
QP lease speak slowly.
AActually, it was a grove, a clearing in which the inhabitants of Smolensk used to pass their leisure time and holidays.
QWas this forest before the war a special reservation which was fenced or guarded?
ADuring the many years tha t I lived in Smolensk, this place was never fenced, and no restrictions were ever placed on access to it. I personally used to go there very frequently. The last time I was there was in 194- and in the spring of 1941. In this woods there was also a camp for pioneers. Thus, there was free access to this place for everybody.
QP lease tell me in what year there was a pioneer camp?
AAs far as I know, it was there during many years.
THE PRESIDENT:Wait a minute. Professor, will you wait a minute, please? When you see that yellow light go on, it means that you are going too fast, and when you are asked a question, will you pause before you answer it? Do you understand?
THE WITNESS:Yes.
BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
1 July A LJG 16-3
QWill you please repeat your answer, and very slowly, if you please.
AFor the last time I know that the pioneer camp was in the area of the Katyn Woods in 1941.
QConsequently, in 1940 and 1941 before the beginning of the war--and you speak also of the spring of 1941--the Katyn Woods was not a special reservation and was accessible to everybody?
AYes. I say that that was the situation.
QDo you say this as an eye-witness or from hearsay?
A. No, I say that as an eye-witness, who used to go there frequently.
Q.Please tell the Tribunal under what circumstances you became the first deputy of the mayor of Smolensk during the period of the German occupation. Please speak slowly.
A.I was an administrative employee, and I did not have an opportunity of leaving the place in time, since I was busy saving the very precious library of the Institute and the very precious equipment. I had an opportunity, thanks to circumstances, to try to escape only on the 15th in the evening, but I did not succeed in catching the train. I was supposed to leave the city on 16 July in the morning,but during the night of 15 to 16 the city was unexpectedly occupied by German troops. All the bridges across the Dneiper were blown up, and I found myself in captivity.
After a certain time, on 20 July, a group of German soldiers visited the observatory of which I was the Director. They took down that I was the Director and that I was living there and that there was also a professor of physics living in the same building.
In the evening of July 20 two German officers came to me and brought me to headquarters of the unit which had occupied Smolensk. After checking my documents and after a short conversation, they suggested that I become Chief of the city. I refused, basing my refusal on the fact that I was a professor of astronomy and that I had had no experience in such matters and that I could not assume this role. They then declared categorically, "We are going to force the Russian intelligentsia to work."
Q.Thus, if I understand you correctly, the Germans forced you my threats to become the Deputy Mayor of Smolensk?
A.That is not all. They told me also that in a few days I would be summoned to the Kommandantur.
THE PRESIDENT:You are spending a lot of time on how he came to be Mayor of Smolensk.
COLONEL SMIRNOV:Will you please allow me to pass to other questions, Mr. President? Thank you for your observations.
BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q.Who was your immediate superior? Who was the Mayor of Smolensk?
A.Michagin.
Q.What were the relations between this man and the German administration and particularly with the German Kommandantur?
A.These relations were established and became closer and closer every day.
Q.Is it correct to say that Michagin was the trustee of the German administration and that they even told him some secret information?
A.Yes.
Q.Do you know that in the vicinity of Smolensk there were Polish prisoners of war?
A.Yes, I do very well.
THE PRESIDENT:I do not know what this is going to prove. You presumably do, but can you not come nearer to the point?
COLONEL SMIRNOV:He said that he knew there were Polish prisoners of war in Smolensk, and with the permission of the Tribunal, I would like to ask the witness what these prisoners of war were doing.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well; go on. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q.Please answer. What were the Polish prisoners of war doing in the vicinity of Smolensk, and at what time?
A.In the spring of 1941, and at the beginning of the summer they were working on the restoration of reads.
Q.What do you know about the further fate of the Polish prisoners of war?
A.Thanks to the position that I occupied, I learned about the fate of the Polish prisoners of war very early.
Q.Please tell the Tribunal what you know about it.
A.In view of the fact that in the camp for Russian prisoners of war there was such a regime that prisoners of war were dying by the hundreds every day, I tried to liberate men whenever I had the slightest reason to enter this camp.
I learned that in this camp there was also a very well known pedagogue named Chivlinski.
I asked Michagin to ask the German Kommandantur of Smolensk, and in particular von Schwaetz, and try to liberate Chivlinski from this camp.
Q.Please do not go into detail and do not wast time, but tell the Tribunal about your conversations with Michagin. What did he tell you?
A.Michagin answered my request with, "What is the use? We can save one, but hundreds will die." However, I insisted, and Michagin, after a certain amount of hesitation, agreed to make such a demand upon the German Kommandantur.
Q.Please be short and tell us what Michagin told you about the German Kommandantur.
A Two days later he told me that he was in a bad spot be-
cause of my demand. Von Schwaetz refused him, referring to an instruction from Berlin in establish a very severe regime with respect to prisoners of war.
QWhat did he tell you about Polish prisoners of war?
AAs to Polish prisoners of war, he told me that Russians themselves would die in the camps while there were orders to exterminate the Poles.
QWhat conversation took place between you?
AI answered. I said. "What do you mean? What do you want to say? How do you understand this"? And Michagin answered: "You should understand this in this in the very literal sense of these words. He asked me not to tell anybody about it, since it was a very great secret."
QWhen did this conversation of yours take place with Michagin?
AThis conversation took place at the beginning of September I cannot remember the exact date.
QBut you remember it was the beginning of September?
AYes.
QDid you ever mention once more this fate of Polish prisoners of war in your further conversations with Michagin?
AYes. Two weeks later--that is to say, at the end of September--I could not help asking him, "What was the fate of the Polish prisoners of war?" At first Michagin hesitated, and then he told me, "They have already died. It is over with them."
QDid he tell you where they were killed?
AHe told me that they had been shot in the vicinity of Smolensk.
QDid he Mention has exact place?
ANo, he aid not mention the exact place.
QTell me this. Did you, in turn, tell anybody about the extermination, by Hitlerites, of the Polish prisoners of war near Smolensk?
A I talked about this to Professor Ischimov, who was liv-
ing in the same house with me. In addition to that, a few days later I had a conversation about this with Dr. Nipolski, who was a physician in the city. However, I found out that Nipolski know about this from some other source.
QDid Michagin tell why these shootings took place?
AYes. When he told me of the prisoners of war who were killed, he emphasized once more the necessity of keeping it a secret, in order to prevent disagreeable compromises. He started to explain to me the reasons for the German behavior with respect to the Polish prisoners of war. He pointed out that this was only one link in the chain of the general system of German policy with respect to Polish prisoners of war.
QDid you hear anything about the extermination of the Poles from the employees of the German Kommandatura?
AUes, two or three days later.
THE PRESIDENT:You are both going too fast, and you aren't pausing enough. You are putting your questions whilst the answers are coming through. You must have longer pauses, and go slower.
COLONEL SMIRNOV:Thank you, Mr. President. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
QPlease continue, but slowly.
AI don't know where I was.
QI asked you whether any of the employees of the German Kommandatura told you anything about the extermination of the Poles.
ATwo or three days later, when I visited the office of Michagin, I found there an interpreter from the Seventh Division of the German Kommandateur who was in charge of the Russian Administration, and who had a conversation with Michagin concerning the, Poles. He was a German from the country.
QPerhaps you can tell us quickly what he said.
AWhen I entered the room he said: "The Poles are not a valuable nation, and their extermination may serve for the widening of living space for the German Nation." However, he said it in a very general form.
QDid you hear about the concrete fact of the shooting and the extermination of the Polish prisoners of war?
THE PRESIDENT:You are doing exactly what I said just now. You are asking the questions before the translation comes through.
COLONEL SMIRNOV:Excuse me, Mr. President, I will try to speak more slowly. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
QDid you hear about the shooting of Polish prisoners of war near Smolensk? You heard it from Michagin and he, in turn, heard it from von Schwaetz. Is that true?
AWhen I entered the room I heard the conversation with Hirschfeld. I missed the beginning, but from the context of the conversation it was clear that they spoke about this event.
QDid Michagin tell you about the shooting of Polish prison ers of war, referring to the Commandant, von Schwaetz?
AYes; as far as my impression goes, he referred to von Schwaetz. But--and this is my deep conviction--he had conversation, about it with private persons in the Kommandatura.
QWhen did Machagin tell you that Polish prisoners of war were killed near Smolensk?
AIt was at the end of September.
COLONEL SMIRNOV:I have no further questions to put to this witness, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will adjourn.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: If it please the Tribunal, the defendant Hess is absent,
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Stahmer.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. STAHMER:
QWitness, in your testimony, just before the recess, you read off your testimony, if I observed correctly. Will you tell me whether that was so or not?
AI was not reading anything. I have only a plan of the courtroom in my hand.
QIt looked to me as though you were reading off your answers. How can you explain the fact that the interpreter already had your answer in his hands?
AI do not know in what manner the interpreters could have my answers beforehand. The testimony which I am giving was known to the Commission beforehand and during the preliminary questioning.
QDo you know the little castle on the Dnieper, the little villa? Didn't you understand me or hear me? Do you know the little castle on the Dnieper, the little villa on the Dnieper?
AI do not know which villa you mean. There were quite a number of villas on the Dnieper.
QThe house which was near the Katyn Forest on the precipitous bank of the Dnieper River.
AI do not quite understand which house you mean. The shore of the Dnieper is quite wide and I do not understand your question.
QDo you know where the graves of Katyn were found, in which eleven thousand Polish officers had been buried?
AI was not there. I did not see the Katyn burial grounds.
QHad you never been in the forest of Katyn?
AAs I already said, I was there not once but many times.
QDo you know where this burial site was located?
AHow can I know where the burial grounds were situated since I could not be there since the occupation?
QHow do you know that the little forest was not fenced in?
A Before the occupation of Smolensk District by the German troops, the entire district, as I already stated, was not surrounded by any barrier but according to hearsay I knew that after the occupation, access to this forest was prohibited by the German High Command, by the German local command.
QTherefore, you have no knowledge of the fact that here in the Katyn forest a sanitarium or a convalescent home of the GPU was located?
AI know very well that was known to all the citizens of Smolensk.
QThen, of course, you also know exactly which house I meant when I put my question to you a little bit age?
AI,myself, had never been in that house. In general, access to that house was only allowed to the families of the employees and of the convalescents. As to the other persons, there was no need for then to go there.
QThe house therefore was closed off?
ANo, the house was not forbidden to strangers but why should a stranger go there since he was not meant to go to rest there. This was not a rest home for him but the garden and part itself was not fenced off.
QWeren't there guards located there?
AI did not see them.
QThis Russian witness who reported to you about the matter dealing with the Polish officers, is that witness still alive?
AThe lawyer must mean the Mayor Minchagen, if I am to understand you.
QYes. When you read off your testimony before, it wasn't easy for me to follow. Mayor Minchagen, is he still alive?
AMinchagen went away together with the German troops during their retreat, and I remained, and the fate of Minchagen is unknown to me.
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Stahmer, you are not entitled to say to the witness "when you read your testimony off" just now, because he denied that he read his testimony off and there is no evidence that he has read it off. BY DR. STAHMER:
QDid this Russian witness tell you that the Polish officers had come from the camp at Kosieltsk?
ADo you mean the camp at Kosieltsk, yes.
QYes.
A The witness did not say that.
QDo you know that place and locality?
ADo you mean Kosieltsk? I do, yes. In 1940, in the month of August, at the and of August, I spent my leave there with my wife.
QDo you know anything about this fact, whether Polish officers were present in a Russian prisoner-of-war camp?
AYes, I knew that.
QUp until what time did these prisoners of war remain there?
AI do not know that for sure but at the end of August 1940, they were there. I can say that with great certainty.
QDo you know, witness, whether this camp, together with its inmates, came into German hands?
APersonally, according to my observations I do not know it but according to rumors, this was the case; that is, of course, not my own testimony and I myself did not see it but I heard it.
QDid you hear where these prisoners or inmates remained or what happened to them?
AYes, I know that they could not be evacuated.
QDid you find out or learn what happened to them?
AI have already in my answers to the prosecutor testified that they were shot upon the order of the German Command.
QAnd where did these shootings take place?
AThe defense counsel has apparently not heard my answers. I already testified that the Mayor Minchagen said that they were shot in the neighborhood of Smolensk but where he did not say.
QHow many prisoners were involved here, what were the number of prisoners?
ADo you mean to say, during my conversation with Minchagen? I do not understand your question. Do you mean to say during my conversation with Minchagen? The exact number was not given.
QWhat was the figure quoted to you by this?
AMinchagen did not quote the figure to me. I repeat that this conversation took place on the last days of September 1941.
Q Can you give us the name of an eye-witness who attended this shooting, anyone who witnessed the shooting or was present there?
AI believe that these executions were carried out under such circumstances that I doubt any Russian witness would be present there.
THE PRESIDENT:Witness, you should answer the question directly. You were asked: "Can you give the names of anybody who was there?" You can answer that yes or no and then you can add any explanations necessary.
THE WITNESS:I will follow your instructions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you give the name of anybody who saw the executions?
THE WITNESS:No, I cannot name anybody who had seen it personally. BY DR. STAHMER:
Q.Through what German organization or unit did the shootings allegedly take place?
A.I cannot give the precise name of that unit, but we heard that it was the Pioneer Battalion which was located there; but of course I do not know the exact location of the German troops.
Q.Were Poles involved here who came from the Camp at Kosieltsk?
A.In general, at that moment during our conversation, they were not connected, but I do not know whether there were any other prisoners of war who had not been previously at Kosieltsk.
Q.Did you yourself see Polish officers?
A.I did not know them myself but my students saw them and they told me that they had seen them in 1941.
Q.And where did they see them?
A.On the road where they were cutting out work at the beginning of summer, 1941.
Q.In what general area or location?
A.In the district of the highway Moscow-Minsk, a little bit to the west of Smolensk.
Q.Can you testify whether the Russian commander in chief had a report to the effect that Polish prisoners at the camp at Kosieltsk had fallen into the hands of the Germans?
A.No, I have no knowledge of that.
Q.What is the name of the German official with whom you talked at the Commandantur, the military government office?
A.Not in the Commandantur, but in theoffice of Minchigan. His name was Hirschfeld.
Q.What was his position?
A.He was a Sonderfuehrer of the 7th Detachment of the German Commandantur in the town of Smolensk.
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions, Mr. President - just another question of two, Mr. President.
BY DR. STAHMER:
Q.Because of your collaboration with the German authorities, were you because of that fact punished by the Russian government?
A.No, I was not.
Q.Are you at Liberty?
A.Not only at liberty but, as I have already reported, I am at the present time a professor of two high schools.
Q.Therefore, you are back in office?
A.Yes.
THE PRESIDENT:Colonel Smirnov, do you wish to re-examine?
COLONEL SMIRNOV:No, Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT:Witness, do you know whether the man, whose name I understand to be Minchagen, was told about these matters himself or whether he had any direct knowledge of them?
THE WITNESS:According to the words of Minchagen, I understood quite definitely that he had heard that himself at the Commandantur from von Schwaetz who was the commandant at the beginning of the occupation. At the beginning of the occupation the commandant was von Schwaetz.
THE PRESIDENT:Then the witness may retire.
COLONEL SMIRNOV:Mr. President, I beg the Tribunal to allow me to call as witness Professor of the Sofia University, Marko Antonova Markov, a Bulgarian citizen.
THE PRESIDENT:Are you the interpreter?
THE INTERPRETER:Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT:Will you give us your full name?
THE INTERPRETER:Ludomir Valev.
THE PRESIDENT:Will you repeat this oath after me:
I swear before God and the Law that I will interpret truthfully and to the best of my skill the evidence to be given by the witness.
(The Interpreter repeated the oath).
MARKO ANTONOVAMARKOV, a witness, took the stand and testified through the Interpreter as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q.Will you give us your full name, please?
A.Dr. Marko Antonova Markov.
Q.Will you repeat this oath after me:
I swear, as a witness in this case, that I will speak only the truth, being aware of my responsibility before God and the Law, and that I will withhold and add nothing.
THE PRESIDENT:You may sit down.
MR. DODD:Mr. President, before this witness is examined, I would like to call to the attention of the Tribunal the fact that Dr. Stahmer asked the preceding witness a question which I understood went: How did it happen that the interpreters had the questions and the answers to your questions if you didn't have them before you. Now that question inplied that Dr. Stahmor had some information that the interpreters did have the answers to the questions, and I sent a note up to the interpreters and I have the answer from the Lieutenant in charge that no one there had any answers or questions, and I think it should be made clear on the record.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes, I think so, too.
DR. STAHMER:Outside the court room I was advised that this fact existed. Of course if it is not a fact, I wish to retract my statement. I was from authentic sources although I did not recall the name of the person who gave me this information; but I did receive this information.
THE PRESIDENT:Such statements ought not be made Stahmer until they have verified it.
COLONEL SMIRNOV : May I begin the cross examination of this witness , Mr. President ?
THE PRESIDENT :The examination, yes.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY COLONEL SMIRNOV :
QWitness, I beg you to tell us briefly, without taking up the time of the Tribunal with too many details, under what conditions you were included in the so-called International Medical Commission created by the Germans in the month of April 1933 for the examination of the graves of Polish officers in the Katyn woods.
I beg you, whilst answering me, to pause between the question I put to you and your own answer.
AThis occured at the end of April 1933. While working in the Medical Legal Institute where I am still working, I was called to the telephone by Dr. Guerow.
THE PRESIDENT :The witness must stop before the interpreter begins. Otherwise, the voices come over the microphone together. So the interpreter must wait until the witness has finished his answer before he repeats it.
Now, the witness has said -- at least what I have heard -- that in April 1943 he was called on the telephone.
A (Continuing) : I was called to the telephone by Dr. Guerow who was a secretary of Dr. Philo who was then Prime Minister of Bulgaria. I was told that as a representative of the Bulgarian Government I was to participate in some sort of international medical commission which would investigate certain corpses dicovered in the forest of Katyn, the corpses of Polish officers.
Not wishing to go, I answered that I had to replace the director of the institute who was away in the country. Dr. Guerow told me that according to an order of the Minister of Foreign Affairs who had sent the telegram, I would have to go to replace him there. Guerow told me to come to the Ministry. There I asked him if I could refuse to comply with this order. He answered that they were in a state of war and that the government could send anybody wherever and whenever it was deemed necessary.
Guerow took me to the principal secretary of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Schuchmarnov. Schuchmarnov repeated this order and told me that we were to examine the corpses of thousands of Polish officers. I answered that to examine thousands of corpses would take several months, but Schuchmarnov said that the Germans had already exhumed a great number of these corpses and that I would have to go together with other members of the commission in order to see what had already been done, and in order to sign, as Bulgarian representative, the protocol which had already been compiled.
After that, I was taken through the German Embassy to Councillor Mormann who arranged all the technical sides of the trip.
This was on Saturday, and on Monday the 26th of April in the morning I flew off to Berlin. There I was met by an employee of the Bulgarian Legation and I was taken to the Hotel Atlon.
QPlease answer the next question : Who took part in this international commission and when did they leave for Katyn ?
AOn the next day, the 27th of April, we stayed in Berlin and the other members of the commission arrived there.
QWho were they ?
AThey were the following. Besides me, there were Dr. Birckler, the chief doctor of the Ministry of Justice and first assistant of the Bucharest University; Dr. Milosawitch, professor for Legal Medicine at Zagreb, who was representative for Croatia; Professor Palmiera, who was Professor for Legal Medicine at Naples; Dr. Orses, Professor of Legal Medicine at Budapest; Dr.Schubeck, Professor of Pathological Anatomy at Bratislava for Slovakia; Dr. Haja, Professor for Legal Medicine at Prague, who represented the so-called Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia; Professor Mavin, Professor of Legal Medicine, Geneva, representative for Switzerland; Dr. Sperleres, Professor for Eye Illnesses, who represented Belgium; Dr. De Burlett, Professor of Anatomy, representing Holland Dr. Transe, First assistant for the Institute for Legal Medicine at the Copenhagen University, representing Denmark; Dr. Saxein from Helsinki, Finland who was also Professor for Pathological Anatomy.
During the entire work of the commission, a doctor assisted who declared that he was a personal representative of President Laval.
Professor Pilger from Madrid also arrived, a very elderly man who did not take any part in the work of the commission.
QDid all these persons go to Katyn ?
AAll these persons came to Katyn with the exception of Professor Pilger.
QWho besides the members of the commission left for Katyn with you ?
A On the 28th we took off from Templehof Airdrome, Berlin for Katyn.
We took off in two airplanes, about 13 to 20 persons were in each.
QMaybe you can see who exactly was there?
ATogether with us was Director Dietz, who met us and accompanied us. representing the Ministry of Public Health. There were also press representatives, and also representatives of the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
QI will interrupt you. Will you tell us now when did the commission arrive in Katyn?
AThe commission arrived in Smolenk on the 28th of April, in the evening.
QHow many work days did the commission stay in Smolensk, I insist work days?
AWe stayed in Smolensk two days only, the 29th and 30th of April, 1943 and on the first of May, in the morning, we left Smolensk.
QHow many times did the members of the commission personally visit the mass graves in the Katyn forest?
AWe were twice in the Katyn forest and precisely in the first part of the day on the 29th of April.
QI mean how many hours did you spend near the mass graves?
AI consider not more than three or four hours every time.
QWere the members of the commission present once during the exhumation of one of the graves?
ANo graves were exhumed in our presence. We were shown only several graves which had already been exhumed before we arrived.
QTherefore, you were shown already exhumed graves, near which the corpses were already laid out, is that right?
AQuite right. Near those graves were exhumed corpses already laid out there.
QWere the necessary conditions for an objective and an all-sided scientific examination of the corpses allowed the members of the commission?
AThe only part of our activity which could be characterized as a scientific, legal, medical examination was the autopsy carried out by certain members of the commission who were themselves legal medical experts but there were seven or eight of us who could answer to those qualification and as far as I recall only eight corpses were opened. Each of us opened one corpse, except Professor Heicker, who opened two corpses.