THE MARSHAL: If it please the Tribunal, the defendant Hess is absent,
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Stahmer.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. STAHMER:
QWitness, in your testimony, just before the recess, you read off your testimony, if I observed correctly. Will you tell me whether that was so or not?
AI was not reading anything. I have only a plan of the courtroom in my hand.
QIt looked to me as though you were reading off your answers. How can you explain the fact that the interpreter already had your answer in his hands?
AI do not know in what manner the interpreters could have my answers beforehand. The testimony which I am giving was known to the Commission beforehand and during the preliminary questioning.
QDo you know the little castle on the Dnieper, the little villa? Didn't you understand me or hear me? Do you know the little castle on the Dnieper, the little villa on the Dnieper?
AI do not know which villa you mean. There were quite a number of villas on the Dnieper.
QThe house which was near the Katyn Forest on the precipitous bank of the Dnieper River.
AI do not quite understand which house you mean. The shore of the Dnieper is quite wide and I do not understand your question.
QDo you know where the graves of Katyn were found, in which eleven thousand Polish officers had been buried?
AI was not there. I did not see the Katyn burial grounds.
QHad you never been in the forest of Katyn?
AAs I already said, I was there not once but many times.
QDo you know where this burial site was located?
AHow can I know where the burial grounds were situated since I could not be there since the occupation?
QHow do you know that the little forest was not fenced in?
A Before the occupation of Smolensk District by the German troops, the entire district, as I already stated, was not surrounded by any barrier but according to hearsay I knew that after the occupation, access to this forest was prohibited by the German High Command, by the German local command.
QTherefore, you have no knowledge of the fact that here in the Katyn forest a sanitarium or a convalescent home of the GPU was located?
AI know very well that was known to all the citizens of Smolensk.
QThen, of course, you also know exactly which house I meant when I put my question to you a little bit age?
AI,myself, had never been in that house. In general, access to that house was only allowed to the families of the employees and of the convalescents. As to the other persons, there was no need for then to go there.
QThe house therefore was closed off?
ANo, the house was not forbidden to strangers but why should a stranger go there since he was not meant to go to rest there. This was not a rest home for him but the garden and part itself was not fenced off.
QWeren't there guards located there?
AI did not see them.
QThis Russian witness who reported to you about the matter dealing with the Polish officers, is that witness still alive?
AThe lawyer must mean the Mayor Minchagen, if I am to understand you.
QYes. When you read off your testimony before, it wasn't easy for me to follow. Mayor Minchagen, is he still alive?
AMinchagen went away together with the German troops during their retreat, and I remained, and the fate of Minchagen is unknown to me.
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Stahmer, you are not entitled to say to the witness "when you read your testimony off" just now, because he denied that he read his testimony off and there is no evidence that he has read it off. BY DR. STAHMER:
QDid this Russian witness tell you that the Polish officers had come from the camp at Kosieltsk?
ADo you mean the camp at Kosieltsk, yes.
QYes.
A The witness did not say that.
QDo you know that place and locality?
ADo you mean Kosieltsk? I do, yes. In 1940, in the month of August, at the and of August, I spent my leave there with my wife.
QDo you know anything about this fact, whether Polish officers were present in a Russian prisoner-of-war camp?
AYes, I knew that.
QUp until what time did these prisoners of war remain there?
AI do not know that for sure but at the end of August 1940, they were there. I can say that with great certainty.
QDo you know, witness, whether this camp, together with its inmates, came into German hands?
APersonally, according to my observations I do not know it but according to rumors, this was the case; that is, of course, not my own testimony and I myself did not see it but I heard it.
QDid you hear where these prisoners or inmates remained or what happened to them?
AYes, I know that they could not be evacuated.
QDid you find out or learn what happened to them?
AI have already in my answers to the prosecutor testified that they were shot upon the order of the German Command.
QAnd where did these shootings take place?
AThe defense counsel has apparently not heard my answers. I already testified that the Mayor Minchagen said that they were shot in the neighborhood of Smolensk but where he did not say.
QHow many prisoners were involved here, what were the number of prisoners?
ADo you mean to say, during my conversation with Minchagen? I do not understand your question. Do you mean to say during my conversation with Minchagen? The exact number was not given.
QWhat was the figure quoted to you by this?
AMinchagen did not quote the figure to me. I repeat that this conversation took place on the last days of September 1941.
Q Can you give us the name of an eye-witness who attended this shooting, anyone who witnessed the shooting or was present there?
AI believe that these executions were carried out under such circumstances that I doubt any Russian witness would be present there.
THE PRESIDENT:Witness, you should answer the question directly. You were asked: "Can you give the names of anybody who was there?" You can answer that yes or no and then you can add any explanations necessary.
THE WITNESS:I will follow your instructions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you give the name of anybody who saw the executions?
THE WITNESS:No, I cannot name anybody who had seen it personally. BY DR. STAHMER:
Q.Through what German organization or unit did the shootings allegedly take place?
A.I cannot give the precise name of that unit, but we heard that it was the Pioneer Battalion which was located there; but of course I do not know the exact location of the German troops.
Q.Were Poles involved here who came from the Camp at Kosieltsk?
A.In general, at that moment during our conversation, they were not connected, but I do not know whether there were any other prisoners of war who had not been previously at Kosieltsk.
Q.Did you yourself see Polish officers?
A.I did not know them myself but my students saw them and they told me that they had seen them in 1941.
Q.And where did they see them?
A.On the road where they were cutting out work at the beginning of summer, 1941.
Q.In what general area or location?
A.In the district of the highway Moscow-Minsk, a little bit to the west of Smolensk.
Q.Can you testify whether the Russian commander in chief had a report to the effect that Polish prisoners at the camp at Kosieltsk had fallen into the hands of the Germans?
A.No, I have no knowledge of that.
Q.What is the name of the German official with whom you talked at the Commandantur, the military government office?
A.Not in the Commandantur, but in theoffice of Minchigan. His name was Hirschfeld.
Q.What was his position?
A.He was a Sonderfuehrer of the 7th Detachment of the German Commandantur in the town of Smolensk.
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions, Mr. President - just another question of two, Mr. President.
BY DR. STAHMER:
Q.Because of your collaboration with the German authorities, were you because of that fact punished by the Russian government?
A.No, I was not.
Q.Are you at Liberty?
A.Not only at liberty but, as I have already reported, I am at the present time a professor of two high schools.
Q.Therefore, you are back in office?
A.Yes.
THE PRESIDENT:Colonel Smirnov, do you wish to re-examine?
COLONEL SMIRNOV:No, Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT:Witness, do you know whether the man, whose name I understand to be Minchagen, was told about these matters himself or whether he had any direct knowledge of them?
THE WITNESS:According to the words of Minchagen, I understood quite definitely that he had heard that himself at the Commandantur from von Schwaetz who was the commandant at the beginning of the occupation. At the beginning of the occupation the commandant was von Schwaetz.
THE PRESIDENT:Then the witness may retire.
COLONEL SMIRNOV:Mr. President, I beg the Tribunal to allow me to call as witness Professor of the Sofia University, Marko Antonova Markov, a Bulgarian citizen.
THE PRESIDENT:Are you the interpreter?
THE INTERPRETER:Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT:Will you give us your full name?
THE INTERPRETER:Ludomir Valev.
THE PRESIDENT:Will you repeat this oath after me:
I swear before God and the Law that I will interpret truthfully and to the best of my skill the evidence to be given by the witness.
(The Interpreter repeated the oath).
MARKO ANTONOVAMARKOV, a witness, took the stand and testified through the Interpreter as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q.Will you give us your full name, please?
A.Dr. Marko Antonova Markov.
Q.Will you repeat this oath after me:
I swear, as a witness in this case, that I will speak only the truth, being aware of my responsibility before God and the Law, and that I will withhold and add nothing.
THE PRESIDENT:You may sit down.
MR. DODD:Mr. President, before this witness is examined, I would like to call to the attention of the Tribunal the fact that Dr. Stahmer asked the preceding witness a question which I understood went: How did it happen that the interpreters had the questions and the answers to your questions if you didn't have them before you. Now that question inplied that Dr. Stahmor had some information that the interpreters did have the answers to the questions, and I sent a note up to the interpreters and I have the answer from the Lieutenant in charge that no one there had any answers or questions, and I think it should be made clear on the record.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes, I think so, too.
DR. STAHMER:Outside the court room I was advised that this fact existed. Of course if it is not a fact, I wish to retract my statement. I was from authentic sources although I did not recall the name of the person who gave me this information; but I did receive this information.
THE PRESIDENT:Such statements ought not be made Stahmer until they have verified it.
COLONEL SMIRNOV : May I begin the cross examination of this witness , Mr. President ?
THE PRESIDENT :The examination, yes.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY COLONEL SMIRNOV :
QWitness, I beg you to tell us briefly, without taking up the time of the Tribunal with too many details, under what conditions you were included in the so-called International Medical Commission created by the Germans in the month of April 1933 for the examination of the graves of Polish officers in the Katyn woods.
I beg you, whilst answering me, to pause between the question I put to you and your own answer.
AThis occured at the end of April 1933. While working in the Medical Legal Institute where I am still working, I was called to the telephone by Dr. Guerow.
THE PRESIDENT :The witness must stop before the interpreter begins. Otherwise, the voices come over the microphone together. So the interpreter must wait until the witness has finished his answer before he repeats it.
Now, the witness has said -- at least what I have heard -- that in April 1943 he was called on the telephone.
A (Continuing) : I was called to the telephone by Dr. Guerow who was a secretary of Dr. Philo who was then Prime Minister of Bulgaria. I was told that as a representative of the Bulgarian Government I was to participate in some sort of international medical commission which would investigate certain corpses dicovered in the forest of Katyn, the corpses of Polish officers.
Not wishing to go, I answered that I had to replace the director of the institute who was away in the country. Dr. Guerow told me that according to an order of the Minister of Foreign Affairs who had sent the telegram, I would have to go to replace him there. Guerow told me to come to the Ministry. There I asked him if I could refuse to comply with this order. He answered that they were in a state of war and that the government could send anybody wherever and whenever it was deemed necessary.
Guerow took me to the principal secretary of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Schuchmarnov. Schuchmarnov repeated this order and told me that we were to examine the corpses of thousands of Polish officers. I answered that to examine thousands of corpses would take several months, but Schuchmarnov said that the Germans had already exhumed a great number of these corpses and that I would have to go together with other members of the commission in order to see what had already been done, and in order to sign, as Bulgarian representative, the protocol which had already been compiled.
After that, I was taken through the German Embassy to Councillor Mormann who arranged all the technical sides of the trip.
This was on Saturday, and on Monday the 26th of April in the morning I flew off to Berlin. There I was met by an employee of the Bulgarian Legation and I was taken to the Hotel Atlon.
QPlease answer the next question : Who took part in this international commission and when did they leave for Katyn ?
AOn the next day, the 27th of April, we stayed in Berlin and the other members of the commission arrived there.
QWho were they ?
AThey were the following. Besides me, there were Dr. Birckler, the chief doctor of the Ministry of Justice and first assistant of the Bucharest University; Dr. Milosawitch, professor for Legal Medicine at Zagreb, who was representative for Croatia; Professor Palmiera, who was Professor for Legal Medicine at Naples; Dr. Orses, Professor of Legal Medicine at Budapest; Dr.Schubeck, Professor of Pathological Anatomy at Bratislava for Slovakia; Dr. Haja, Professor for Legal Medicine at Prague, who represented the so-called Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia; Professor Mavin, Professor of Legal Medicine, Geneva, representative for Switzerland; Dr. Sperleres, Professor for Eye Illnesses, who represented Belgium; Dr. De Burlett, Professor of Anatomy, representing Holland Dr. Transe, First assistant for the Institute for Legal Medicine at the Copenhagen University, representing Denmark; Dr. Saxein from Helsinki, Finland who was also Professor for Pathological Anatomy.
During the entire work of the commission, a doctor assisted who declared that he was a personal representative of President Laval.
Professor Pilger from Madrid also arrived, a very elderly man who did not take any part in the work of the commission.
QDid all these persons go to Katyn ?
AAll these persons came to Katyn with the exception of Professor Pilger.
QWho besides the members of the commission left for Katyn with you ?
A On the 28th we took off from Templehof Airdrome, Berlin for Katyn.
We took off in two airplanes, about 13 to 20 persons were in each.
QMaybe you can see who exactly was there?
ATogether with us was Director Dietz, who met us and accompanied us. representing the Ministry of Public Health. There were also press representatives, and also representatives of the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
QI will interrupt you. Will you tell us now when did the commission arrive in Katyn?
AThe commission arrived in Smolenk on the 28th of April, in the evening.
QHow many work days did the commission stay in Smolensk, I insist work days?
AWe stayed in Smolensk two days only, the 29th and 30th of April, 1943 and on the first of May, in the morning, we left Smolensk.
QHow many times did the members of the commission personally visit the mass graves in the Katyn forest?
AWe were twice in the Katyn forest and precisely in the first part of the day on the 29th of April.
QI mean how many hours did you spend near the mass graves?
AI consider not more than three or four hours every time.
QWere the members of the commission present once during the exhumation of one of the graves?
ANo graves were exhumed in our presence. We were shown only several graves which had already been exhumed before we arrived.
QTherefore, you were shown already exhumed graves, near which the corpses were already laid out, is that right?
AQuite right. Near those graves were exhumed corpses already laid out there.
QWere the necessary conditions for an objective and an all-sided scientific examination of the corpses allowed the members of the commission?
AThe only part of our activity which could be characterized as a scientific, legal, medical examination was the autopsy carried out by certain members of the commission who were themselves legal medical experts but there were seven or eight of us who could answer to those qualification and as far as I recall only eight corpses were opened. Each of us opened one corpse, except Professor Heicker, who opened two corpses.
Our further activity during these two days bore the character of a rapid examination under the direction of Germans or even a tourist walk and we saw the open graves and we were shown the peasant's house, a few miles distant from the Katyn forest, where in glass cabinets papers and objects of various sorts were kept.
We were told that these papers and objects had been found in the clothes of the corpses which had been exhumed.
QDid you see yourself how these papers were discovered or were they shown to you when they were already in glass cases?
ADocuments which we saw in the glass cases had already been found before we arrived.
QWere you allowed to investigate these documents, to examine these documents, for instance to see whether the papers were impregnated with any acids coming from the corpses, from the disintergration of the corpses or to carry out any other kind of scientific examination?
AWe did not carry out any scientific examination of these papers. As I have already told you, these papers were exhibited in glass cases and we did not even touch them.
QBut I would like you to answer me nevertheless with a short answer, yes or no, to a question which I have already put to you briefly. Were the conditions which were created for you and for the members of the commission, were these conditions quite adequate for a scientific examination?
AIn my opinion these conditions can in no way be qualified as adequate for a complete and objective scientific examination. The only thing which bore the character of a scientific nature was the autopsy.
QBut did I rightly understand you, that from the eleven thousand corpses which were discovered only eight were opened by members of the commission?
AQuite right.
QPlease answer the next question. In what condition were these corpses? I would like you to describe the state in which they were and also the state of the inner organs.
AAs to the condition of the corpses in the Katyn graves I can only judge according to the state of the corpse which I myself opened.
The condition of this corpse was, as far as I could ascertain, the same as that of all the other corpse. The skin was very well preserved, was partly dried up, of a brown-red color and in some parts there were blue markings from the clothes. The nails and hair, in most eases, had already fallen out. In the head of the corpse I opened there was a snail shot, a bullet wound in the nape of the head. Only an unformed mass remained of the brain. The muscles were still preserved to such an extent that one could even see the heart valves. The inner organs were also preserved in a good state of preservation. But, of course, they were dried up, bent and darkened. The stomach bore the trace of some sort of contents. A part of the fat had turned into wax. We were impressed by the fact that while being dragged brutally, no members had detached themselves. I dictated on the spot of the examination a protocol. A similar protocol was dictated by the other members of the commission. This memorandum was published by the German under number 827.
QI would like you to answer the following question. Did the legal medical exports testify to the fact that they were in the graves already three years?
AAs to that question I could also only judge from the corpse I myself had opened. The condition of this corpse, as I have already stated was typical of the average condition of the Katyn corpses. These corpses were far from disintegrated since the fat was only beginning to turn into wax. In my opinion these corps were buried for a far shorter period of time than three years. I considered that these corpses had been buried not more than a year or a year and a half.
Q Therefore, applying the criteria of Bulgaria--that is, of a core Southern climate--you considered that the corpses that were exhumed in the Katyn Forest had been lying under the earth for not more than a year and a half?
Did I understand you correctly?
AYes, quite right. I considered that they had been buried for not more than a year and a half.
THE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will adjourn now.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 1000 hours, 2 July 1946.)
Official Transcript of the International Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America, the French Republic, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics against Hermann Wilhelm Goering, et al, Defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 2 July 1946.
1000-1700, Lord Justice Lawrence presiding.
MARKO ANTONOVA MARKOV -- Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION -- Continued BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
QWitness, when did you, together with the other members of the Commission, perform the autopsies of these eight corpses? What date was it exactly?
AThat was 13 April, early in the day.
QAnd, on the basis of your personal observations, you decided that the corpses were in the ground one and a half years?
AThat is correct.
QBefore putting the next question to you, I should like you to give me a brief answer to the following question;
Is it correct that in the practice of Bulgarian legal medicine you make a special art of legal medicine and that this art includes deductions?
AIn our practice, as well as in the practice of other countries so far as I know, it is done in the following way: First of all, we give a description and then the deduction.
QWas a deduction contained in the protocol which you made regarding the autopsy?
AMy protocol regarding the corpses on which I performed the autopsy contained only a description without a conclusion.
QWhy?
ABecause, from the papers which were there, I understood that they wanted us to say that the corpses were in the ground for three years. This could have been deduced from the papers which were shown to us in the little peasant hut about which I have already spoken.
QWere these papers shown to you before the autopsy or after the autopsy?
A Yes, the papers were given us one day before.
THE PRESIDENT:Colonel Smirnov, you are interrupting the interpreter all the time. Before the interpreter has finished the answer, you have put another question. It is very difficult for us to hear the interpreter.
COLONEL SMIRNOV:Thank you, Mr. President.
THE WITNESS:Because the objective deduction regarding the autopsy was not in accordance with the official version, I did not make any deductions. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
QYou did not make any deduction because the objection data which were submitted to you testified to the fact that the corpses had been in the ground, not three years, but oneyear and a half?
THE PRESIDENT:Colonel Smirnov, you must remember that it is a double translation, and unless you pause more than you are pausing, your voice comes in upon the interpreter's and we cannot hear the interpreter.
COLONEL SMIRNOV:Very well, Mr. President.
THE WITNESS:Yes, thatis quite correct. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
QWas there, among the members of the Commission unanimity,regarding the time the corpses had been in the graves?
AAmong the members of the delegation who performed the autopsies and excavations in the Katyn Woods, there were differences of opinion regarding the time the corpses had been buried. Some of them, as for instance, Professor Heim, spoke about immaterial things; as for instance, that one of these who were shot had bruises. Some of the others, as for instance, Professor Bueckle from Bucharest, cut off some hair from the corpse in order to determine the age of the corpse. I think that that is most immaterial. Professor Balmieri, on the basis of the autopsy that he performed, said that the corpse had been in the ground over a year but no could not determine exactly how long.
The only one who gave a definite statement in regard to the time the corpses remained in the ground was Professor Miroslavic from Zagreb, and he said it was three years.
However, when the German book regarding Katyn was published, I read the result of his objective consultation, and his statement regarding the corpse on which he had performed the autopsy. I had the impression that the corpse on which he had performed the autopsy did not differ in its stage of decomposition from the other corpses. This led me to think that his statement that the corpses had remained in the ground for three years was not a true fact in accordance with his description.
QI would like to ask you to reply to the following question.
Were there many skulls with pserdo callous which were submitted to the members of the Commission? I should like to say that this term is not very well known in general criminal medicine. I should like you to give us an exact explanation of what Professor Orses, of Budapest, means by the term "pserdo callous."
THE PRESIDENT:Would you repeat that question? BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
QWere there many skulls with signs of pserdo callous which were submitted to the members of the Commission? I should like to remark that as this term is not very well known in the books on legal medicine, I should like to stop and give a detailed explanation of what Professor Orses means by the term "pserdo callous."
THE PRESIDENT:What are you saying the skulls had? You asked if there were many skulls with something or other.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: It is "pserdo callous." It is a Latin term of some sort of corn which is formed on the inside of the skull.
THE PRESIDENT:Can you spell the word in Latin?
(Colonel Smirnov submitted a paper to the President.)
THE PRESIDENT:What you have written here is p-s-e-r-d-o. Do you mean p-s-e-u-d-o, which means false?
COLONEL SMIRNOV:Yes, that is right, "pseudo."
THE PRESIDENT:Now then, put your question again, and try to put it shortly.
COLONEL SMIRNOV:Yes.
BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
QWere there many skulls in various stages of pseudo callous which were submitted to the members of the Commission? Will you please give an exact explanation of this term of Professor Orses?
AProfessor Orses spoke to us regarding pseudo callous at a general conference of the delegates. That took place on the 30th of April, in the afternoon, in the building where the field laboratory of Smolensk was located.
Professor Orses understood the term "pseudo callous" as meaning some formation of indissoluble salt of calcium and other salts on the inside part of the skull. Professor Orses stated that, according to his observations in Hungary, this happened if the corpses remained in the ground for at least three years. When Professor Orses stated this at the scientific conference, none of the delegates said anything either for or against it. I deduced from that, that this term "pseudo callous" was also unknown to the other delegates, just as it was to me.
At the same conference Professor Orses demonstrated to us that -
Q (interposing) I should like to answer this for me. What number did the corpse have from this skul was taken which had signs of pseudo callous?
AThe corpse from which the skull was taken which was noted in the book bore the number 526. From this I deduced that this corpse was exhumed from the grave before our arrival at Katyn, because all the other corpses on which we performed autopsies on the 30th of April had numbers which ran over 800. It was explained to us that as soon as a corpse was exhumed it immediately got a special number placed on it.
QTell me this, please. Did you notice any pseudo callous on the skulls of these corpses on which you, as well as your colleagues, performed autopsies?
AOn the skull of the corpse on which I performed an autopsy, instead of brain in the head there was some sort of gruel-like mass, but I never noticed any pseudo callous in the skull. The other delegates-- after the explanation, which they supported -- did not state that they found any pseudo callous in the other skulls. Even Butz, an assistant, who examined the corpses even before our arrival, did not state that they had noticed any pseudo callous.
Later on, in a book which was published by the Germans and which con-
tained the report of Butz, I noticed that Butz referred to pseudo callous in order to give more weight to his statement that the corpses had remained in the ground for three years.
QDid I understand you correctly that of the 11,000 corpses only one skull was submitted to you which had pseudo callous?
AThat is quite correct.
QI should like you to describe to the Tribunal, in detail, the state of decomposition of the clothing which you found on the corpses.
AIn general, the clothing was very well preserved, but of course it was impregnated with some things emanating from the decomposition of the corpses. When you pulled the clothing in order to undress the corpses, or when you tried to take off the shoes, the clothing did not tear, nor did the shoes fall apart. I even had the impression that this clothing could have been used again, after having been cleaned. There were some papers contained in the pockets of the clothing of the corpse on which I performed the autopsy, and these papers were also impregnated with corpse fluid.
Some of the Germans who were present when I was performing the autopsy demanded that I should describe these papers and the contents of those papers; but I refused to do it, thinking that his was not the duty of medical men.
In substance I had already noticed the previous day when the papers were submitted to us that with the help of the dates contained in those papers, they were trying to make us think that the corpses had remained in the ground for three years.
Therefore, I wanted to base my deductions only on the actual condition of the corpse. Some of the other delegates who performed the autopsy also found some papers in the clothing of the corpse. The papers which were found in the clothing of the corpse on which I performed the autopsy were put into a record which bore the same number as the corpse, No. 827. Later on, in the book which was published by the Germans, I saw that some of the delegates described the contents of the papers which were found on the corpse.
Q.I should like to ask you to reply to the following question. On what objective medical data did you base your deductions that the corpses remained in the ground not less than three years ?
THEPRESIDENT: ill you put the question again ? I did not understand the question.
COLONEL SMIRNOV:Very well, Mr. President. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q.I asked on what objective legal medical data did you base the deductions of the protocol of the medical commission that the corpses remained in the ground not less than three years ?
THE PRESIDENT:Has he said that that was the deduction he made ? Not less than three years ?
THETRIBUNAL (MR. JUSTICE BIDDLE): He has not said that.
THE PRESIDENT:He has not said that at all. He never said that he made the deduction that the corpses remained in the ground not less than three years.
COLONEL SMIRNOV:He did not make this deduction; but Professor Markov together with the other members of the commission, signed a report of the international commission.
THE PRESIDENT: I know; but that is why I ask you to repeat your question.
The question that was translated to us was: On what grounds did you make your deduction that the corpses had remained in the ground not less than three years, which is the opposite of what he says.
Now, will you put the question again?
COLONEL SMIRNOV:Very well. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q.I am not asking you about your personal reports, but about the general reports of the entire commission, of which, among other people, you were a member?
THE PRESIDENT:Wait a minute. Now, then, Colonel Smirnov, will you put the question agai n,
COLONEL SMIRNOV:Yes, Mr. President. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q.I was asking, on what grounds, such as objective data of legal medicine, was based not the individual report of Dr. Markov, but the deduction of the eitire commission together, in the international reports that the corpses remained not less than three years in the ground?
A.The collective report of the commission which was signed by all the delegates was very poor regarding the real objective, legal medical data. Concerning the decomposition of the corpses, it was stated--there was only one sentence about this in the report--that the corpses were in various stages of decomposition, and there was no description of the real stage of decomposition.
Thus, in my opinion, this deduction was based on papers and on testimony of the witnesses, but not on the actual legal medical data. As far as legal medicine is concerned, they tried to support this deduction by the statement of Professor Orses regarding the finding of psuedo-callous in the skull of the corpse in corpse No. 526. That is my opinion.
Since this skull was the only one with psuedo-callous, it was impossible to arrive at a conclusion regarding the stage of decomposition of thousands of corpses which were contained in the Katyn graves. Fruthermore, the remark of Professor Orses regarding psuedo-callous was made in Hungary; that is to say, in quite different soil and climatic conditions, and only in individual graves and not in mass graves, as was the case in Katyn.