THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will be seated please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. SAUTER: Dr. Sauter for the Defendant Lanz. May it please the Tribunal, we have here a witness, and I have agreed with Mr. Fenstermacher that the cross-examination be interrupted at this moment so that the witness can be examined. We will be finished with the witness today. The witness is, at the moment, here, but he must leave Nurnberg tomorrow, I would therefore, ask that the Tribunal allow the cross-examination of the Defendant Lanz to be interrupted here so that this witness, Georg Lipp, can be examined here.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: That course may be pursued.
DR. SAUTER: General Lanz, would you please return to your place in the dock?
(GENERAL LANZ RETIRES TO THE DOCK)
GEORG LIPP, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE:
You will repeat after me please: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing. (THE WITNESS REPEATED THE OATH) You may be seated.
DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Witness, would you please state your full name?
A Georg Lipp.
Q When were you born?
A On the 15th of April 1904.
Q And what is your profession?
A I am a Studienrat, that is, a high school teacher.
Q And a Catholic clergyman?
A Yes, I am a Catholic clergyman.
Q And where do you live?
A In Rosenheim, Upper Bavaria.
Q Witness, after each question would you please make a brief pause so that the questions and answers can be translated? -
Q Do you know General Lanz?
A Yes, I have known General Lanz since 1938.
Q Where did you first meet him?
A I met him in Bad Reichenhall. Then he was Commander of the 100th Jaeger Regiment.
Q And did you also meet General Lanz during the war? Were you amongst his troops? How is it that you can state anything about him and about his attitude during the war?
A Since 1938, except for a few months, I was, without a break, with the Regiment, and later on I was with the Division under his command.
Q And what position did you hold? What official position did you hold with the troops under General Lanz?
A During this period I was Catholic Divisional Chaplain, and my task was to look after the spiritual needs of the Catholics who were under the command of General Lanz.
Q And during this period did you have only official contact with General Lanz or did you also have any social relations with him?
A Because of his attitude and because of his deep faith, apart from official dealings I had very much to do with his family and also with him personally about pending religious or military questions.
Q And, Witness, what can you tell us about the ideological opinions of General Lanz which you found out from conversations with him and from his actions?
AAt the very first meeting with him in Bad Reichenhall he expressed to me quite clearly that my work in looking after the souls of his men was absolutely supported by him because he did not agree with the ideology.
Heotook part in all the services in the garrison headquarters, and later on outside in the field, and he was always in the forefronts of these services.
Q And how then did the troops who served under General Lanz regard this emphasized Christian attitude of General Lanz?
A The troops who, for the most part, came from Upper Bavaria, were thankful for this unique example.
Q You say, Witness, that General Lanz even at the first meeting with you made no secret of the fact that he himself did not agree with National Socialist ideology. Did he make any derogatory remarks about decidedly National Socialist actions on the part of the State or the Party or did he agree with them?
A With regard to all the measures taken by this State, measures contrary to all natural laws of decency, contrary to morals and against the church, and concerned questions of education, of youth etc. he expressed his strong disapproval. This he did even in the presence of National Socialist officers. Therefore, in no way did he take his own person into account at all.
Q Well then during the war when did you come to General Lanz? Was that before the beginning of the Russian Campaign, which, as is known, started in tho summer of 1941, or was it after that?
A I came to General Lanz and remained with him uninterruptedly from November, 1940 until he left in January, 1943.
Q At the beginning of the Russian Campaign did anything happen between you and General Lanz which made a special impression upon you? That is, immediately before the Russian Campaign?
AA few days before tho beginning of the Russian Campaign the General asked me to hold field services with all parts of his troops. After this had been done I was to report to him. And on this occasion he gave me his will whereupon we had a rather prolonged conversation.
Q And what did he tell you during this conversation, which would, perhaps, be of importance here for this case?
I'm thinking about this will which you yourself mentioned.
A During this conversation he expressed his greatest misgivings about the success of this operation.
Q About the Russian Campaign?
A Yes, the Russian campaign. Because, with his groat knowledge and far-sighted capabilities he could imagine the tragedy which was to come about later on. If he should die he asked that a Catholic priest should bury him, with the express exclusion of all Party officials and National Socialist symbols. Also the publication in the press was only to be of a Christian character.
Q. You mean here, if I understand you correctly, the publication of the death notice, the obituary?
A. Yes, the obituary notice.
Q. Well, what did he mean by that, that this obituary notice should only be of a Christian character?
A. Since he completely rejected National Socialist ideology he also did not want, at some later date, to be regarded and judged in the papers as an N. S. General.
Q. An "N. S. General", means a "National Socialistic inclined general?"
A. Yes, that's what I mean. Furthermore, he asked me to look after his children so that they would be kept away from the influence of the Hitler Youth, or the B. D. M.
Q. "H. J." is the "Hitler Youth", and "B. D. M." is the "National Social Girls Association"?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. These were, then, the last wishes which General Lanz gave to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, can you tell us from your own observations what General Lanz's attitude was towards the civilian population?
A. As in France also for the area of the East and in the Southeast, he repeatedly issued orders which were aimed at protecting the life and the property of the civilian population. I can remember orders which were very severe against excesses committed by the soldiers.
Q. And did he also intervene against excesses committed by officers against plundering or stealing, for instance, or other things, if they were committed by officers?
A. Officers who were found to be guilty of such offenses were called to account before a court martial, or else General Lanz had them transferred to another troop unit.
Q. And do you know, from your own observation, whether General Lanz, while you were his subordinate, also worried himself at all about prisoners of war and what he did in this direction in order to improve the conditions of the prisoners of war?
A. In all cases he tried to obtain food and also to provide medical treatment for the wounded who were brought in. The competent divisional commanders and the doctors were entrusted with this by him, and he himself kept an eye on it all.
Q. And did you take part in conference in which General Lanz told his commanders and his officers to maintain strict discipline and correctness against the population?
A. I often attended commanders' conferences in which he personally made the officers responsible for the relations with the civilian population if they were not carried on smoothly.
Q. Were you with General Lanz when ho went to the Balkans, and did you there serve under his command?
A. In the Balkans I met General Lanz in August 1943, and as the Division had to carry out many mopping-up operations, I was, for a time, under his direct orders, but I often had many conversations or discussions or conferences with General Lanz.
Q. And during these conferences did General Lanz also say anything about his attitude towards the fighting of the various band organizations?
A. General Lanz regretted very much this fighting against the bands, but, since the lives of the troops under his command were endangered by nearly every-day attacks, he saw himself forced, on the other hand, to take action against them.
Q. And did you make any observations as to how, in Greece, General Lanz's personal relations were carried on towards the Greek population? Did he try to cooperate with them, or did he confine himself to giving them orders?
A. Proof of his cooperation can be seen from the one fact alone that Greek officials.....burgermeisters, priests .....were invited to see him, and they also participated in parties in the mess facilities.
Q. I assume, Witness, that you, as a priest, had especially close contact with the other priests in Epirus, the bishops and the priests there. Can you tell us what the judgment of these Greek priests was about General Lanz and about his attitude? What did they tell you about him?
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
A. The Archbishop of Joannina and the Bishop of Paramythia -- they spoke about him in the most grateful words for the care and the trouble which General Lanz took on behalf of the church and for the civilian population.
Q. Witness, do you know from your own observation anything about how General Lanz wanted to have the captured partisans treated?
A. He gave orders with reference to these people according to which all partisans were to be treated in the same way as all the other prisoners of war. They were sent to a prisoner collection center and the wounded partisans were sent to the nearest main dressing station for medical treatment; and later on he personally found out what was being done with them and with his almost daily visits to the main dressing stations and field hospitals, he also,-- excuse me, I have forgotten how to finish it. He also asked for information about this.
Q. Did you observe that with regard to the medical treatment, for instance, of the wounded partisans or any other wounded enemy, he made any kind of difference between the medical treatment given to them and the treatment given to his own soldiers? What differences did he make there if he made any?
A. I only know that, first of all, the German troops were looked after and subsequently the wounded prisoners, but I can testify for certain that no wounded prisoners was left overnight without care.
Q. Witness, can you from your own observation tell us anything about whether or not it is correct that General Lanz was held in extremely high estimation by all his troops because of his great bravery and how did he show this personal bravery?
A. He was always in the very center of the battle in the very front lines, and from there he took every single tactical measure.
His bravery which was founded in his deep faith brought him into the highest esteem of all his troops. In the battle of Uman, as well as in Charkow, 1942, or in the Kaukasus, he disregarded his own person completely and only thought of the welfare of his soldiers. He wanted to know everything about the death of every single soldier who was killed. He wanted this to be accounted for and every single order was well considered before it was given.
Q. Witness, can you remember or were you there when General Lanz expressed that he be asking himself whether in every single case he was doing his duty? Can you remember anything about that?
A. He, after burial services, in which he took part, often expressed to me, "Chaplain, I am always asking myself when I stand at the side of graves whether these dead men can be accounted for in front of God and my conscience and also before their relatives at home?"
Q. Witness, did General Lanz also say anything to you about how he interpreted especially severe orders when they came to him from higher-up, perhaps from Hitler? Did he carry out these orders willingly and did he say anything to you in this sense?
A. With regard to orders from superior offices, including the OKH, or even orders from the Fuehrer, he always expressed the severe of criticism, and these orders were not carried out by him. This criticism was completely frank, and it was also given in the presence of officers, foreign units, or in the presence of his own officers of the Division who were national socialists.
Q. Then a last question, Witness. Did General Lanz, during confidential discussions with you, ever say anything about the fact that he often had conflicts with his conscience with regard to severe orders from above, and he didn't know whether he should carry out the orders or what he should do?
Did he ever express anything to you on these lines, Witness? If he did, then would you please tell the Tribunal?
A. For a Catholic priest, there are things about which we cannot talk even before a Tribunal, but I can say that his last years had been full of continuous conflicts of conscience; because of the sensibility of his conscience, and his great feeling of responsibility and his Christian attitude, he suffered very much if he had to carry out measures which were not in accordance with his Christian conscience.
DR. SAUTER: I have no further questions to the Witness, thank you.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Are there any further questions by defense counsel?
Dr. Laternser.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Your Honor, I would just like to ask a few questions on behalf of Fieldmarshal von Weichs.
Witness, you said that in August 1943 you arrived in the Balkans?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you remain in the Balkans?
A. I remained in the Balkans until August 1944.
Q. And at that time, who was Commander-in-Chief of Army Group F?
A. Commander-in-Chief of Army Group F was Fieldmarshal von Weichs.
Q. What do you know about the attitude of Fieldmarshal von Weichs towards the spiritual needs of the Wehrmacht?
A. Fieldmarshal von Weichs was regarded by all the soldiers in the Balkans as a general who had a very beneficent attitude towards the spiritual needs of the Wehrmacht.
Q. Was this known within the circle of Wehrmacht priests?
A. Yes, not only in circles of Wehrmacht priests but also by all believing soldiers and officers.
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
Q And was Field Marshal von Weichs regarded as one of those high Generals who were especially interested in the organization of spiritual and religious welfare in the Wehrmacht?
A This last thing was only known to the Wehrmacht priests.
Q Thank you very much, Witness, I have no further questions.
JUDGE BURKE: Any further questions on the part of other members of the defense counsel staff? Apparently not, Mr. Fenstermacher, you may cross-examine.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I have no questions, Your Honor.
JUDGE BURKE: Very well, you may be excused.
(The witness is excused.)
General Lanz, you may return to the stand.
HUBERT LANZ - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION - (Continued) BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q General Lanz, did the O.K.W. hold you responsible for what the Corps Group Joannina did while you were in Hungary?
A I am sorry I did not get it quite clearly, who held me responsible?
Q Did the O.K.W. hold you for what the Corps Group Joannina did?
A Not as far as I know, I don't know anything about this.
Q I believe you testified about this in your direct examination, General Lanz, that no one from your Corps area was deported for labor in Germany?
A I said that I don't remember any case of deportation, on the other hand, I remember that from time to time prisoners were sent to work on the roads by me. I said something about that.
Q Would you look now at Document Book 19, at page 148 of the German, page 136 of the English, you will note there those file notes for the Commanding General under paragraph B, "For labor employment in Germany, deported 160 persons"?
A That was the case which I mentioned in my direct examination.
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
When I found out about this incident from the other report of my I-c I expressly ordered that no one was to be sent away, but that the people should remain in my area because there was work to be done there by them on the roads. That was just the note to intervene here. I think I mentioned that in my direct examination.
Q Weren't these 150 persons already deported by the time you made these notes?
A Just a moment, it states there at the bottom of this, there are at present 56 still in the prisons collecting point, I cannot establish that exactly, but at any rate when I found out about this I intervened at once as I did not want this to happen.
Q And to your knowledge, none of these 150 persons were ever sent to Germany?
A I cannot say exactly, in any case I intervened when I found out about it. I can say that definitely.
Q Now, your Ic, who I believe was named Lenthe?
A Yes.
Q .... Sent in an affidavit that to his knowledge no persons in your Corps anywhere were used to construct fortifications?
A Well, fortifications did not come into the question at all, perhaps trenches are something like that are meant. I cannot remember what he wrote at the moment.
Q To your knowledge were any of the Greek population used to construct trenches or any other fortifications in your Corps area?
AAt the moment I cannot remember one single case where this happened. I can only remember that people, as I said, were temporarily used on road building.
Q Would you consider the use of the Greek population for work on fortifications a violation of International law, General Lanz?
A In any case I would regard it as undesirable for the population to be sent to work in this way and I certainly would avoid it when I could.
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
Q Would you be opposed to it because of its unlawfulness?
A Yes, I would agree with that, but in my opinion if I am correctly informed according to International Laws of War the inhabitants are not allowed to be sent to work on war undertakings, but I would like to adhere that when this law was made the concept of a war undertaking was comparatively narrow, while today a total war comprises almost everything, so that nearly everything can be regarded as a war undertaking.
Q Would you look now, General Lanz, at NOKW 625. Your Honors....
JUDGE BURKE: This is page?
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q I beg your pardon, Your Honors. General Lanz, this is a report to your XXII Mountain Corps headquarters and you will note the receipt stamp of your headquarters for 2 March 1944. Was this Division subordinate to you at that time?
A Yes, it was subordinate to me at that time.
Q You will note what the document says, "The Division reports the following to the above reference. The evacuation of Sarande is in progress....."
JUDGE BURKE: Did you give an exhibit number to this document?
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Yes, Your Honors, it is Exhibit 625.
"The women and children to be evacuated will be sheltered in the localities lying east of Sarande. The male population is still to remain in Sarande for the time being and will be brought up to work on fortifications."
Do you remember having seen this document?
A No, I did not see this report, otherwise I would have initialed it. There is something written on it, some kind of initial that I cannot decipher, but my initial is not on it. I cannot remember that this was reported to me. This was shortly before I left for Hungary.
Q The reference, General Lanz, is to an inquiry of your Ia of the 27th February, 1944, did you institute any inquiries that you know of Court No. V, Case No. VII.
regarding this particular evacuation?
A No, I cannot remember this incident at all, in any case this whole thing does not express my attitude or my desire.
Q Now, regarding the evacuation of Jews from the Island of Korfu, General Lanz, I believe you stated that you were indifferent to that particular matter and in any event did not cooperate with the SS, who was in charge of the operation?
A No, that is not quite correct. I was not indifferent to it as you say, but I was opposed to the measures, but I could not prevent it and I wanted to have nothing to do with this matter. That is what I stated.
Q Did you ever object to Army Group E on the grounds that you were opposed to treating Jews differently from any other persons in your Corps area?
A Probably I expressed my opinion to the Chief of Staff of the Army Group, and in addition I know from a report which my Chief of Staff signed that this whole matter was undesirable, but if it had to be carried out it had to be done; but he expressly stressed that there was no shipping space available. That is what can be found set down somewhere.
Q Were you opposed to this evacuation for military reasons only or were you also opposed because of the distinction made between Jews and other persons in your area?
A Military reasons played no part in this at all. I was against it for humane reasons because I couldn't see why these measures had to be carried out, I couldn't agree with them.
Q Did you specifically say to Army Croup E, "I am opposed to this operation because I disagree with this particular treatment of Jews", is that the reason why you opposed the evacuation?
A Of course, I can't literally remember today what I said. I only know my fundamental altitude towards the measure was expressed to the Army Group and my attitude was, as I have just stated. This whole affair was repugnant to me.
Q You stated, General Lanz, that the population of your area could come to see you at any time at your headquarters and protest to you?
A In any case, I told the Greek authorities whose representatives were frequently with me, that they could come to me at any time if they had any troubles, and it is also a fact that they made use of this offer, and it is also a fact that numerous members of the civilian population came to me in order to tell me about any kind of trouble they had.
Q Did any Jews come to you and protest against the evacuation of other Jews from Korfu?
A During the Korfu period, I don't know this, out I know that in autumn 1943 the Jews from Joannina turned to me through my ADC because they were afraid that some kind of steps would be taken against time. At that time, of course, I had nothing against these people, and I told them that as far as I could prevent it, nothing would happen to them, and I did that with a good and honest conscience; and I also think that in one of the affidavits there is something contained with regard to this, if I am not mistaken.
AAmy Group E was not opposed to the evacuation, were they, General Lanz, you say they agreed, at least, they agreed to cooperate with the SS to the extent of supplying shipping space for the evaluation?
A I really cannot state anything about the attitude of Army Group E. I must honestly say I didn't worry myself very much about it, but I assume that Army Group E was under a certain pressure during this action because at that time there was a general pressure with regard to this question.
Q Amy Group E ordered you to place shipping space at the disposal of the SS for the evacuation, if it were possible, from the military standpoints to do so, did they not?
A Yes, I think there is some teletype in the files about it along these lines, but I didn't have any shipping space.
Q Wasn't it possible for you, General Lanz, for you as the tactical commander to oppose this evacuation on the ground that it would interfere with your military operations and therefore should not be carried out?
A I made this objection, but it didn't get through because the pressure from the very top was much too great.
Q As tactical commander, couldn't you have prevented any action taking place within your Corps Area on the ground that it would disrupt your duties as a combat leader?
A With regard to this question, I have already made some indications during my examination. It shows a misunderstanding of the situation at that time, if one imagines that a commander could actually have prevented such a measure as this.
Q Were Jews in fact deported from the Island of Korfu, General Lanz?
AAs far as I have read in some report or other, I think perhaps 1780 were deported, or something like that.
Q How were they evacuated, if you didn't have any shipping space to put at the disposal of the SS?
A The shipping space after a lot of difficulty, I assume, was made available by the so-called Admiral Aegaeis who was responsible for these things.
Q Could you have ordered the Admiral not to put the ships at the disposal of the SS?
A No, the Admiral was in no way subordinate to me.
Q The Island of Korfu was subordinate to you, was it not?
A Yes, that was tactically subordinate to me.
Q Now, General Lanz, you recall the testimony of the witness Tryandaphilodis who said that your emissaries came to General Zervas and threatened to burn down all of the Epirus area if his attacks upon your troops did not cease. Is that the message your emissaries took to Zervas?
A No, my emissaries never told General Zervas that. The emissary, this was Mr. Bickel from Switzerland, told General Zervas that I was trying to get peaceful relations with General Zervas, and I already stated something about the further course of affairs.
Q Wasn't it part of your policy in Greece to try and divide and conquer, that is to say, didn't you try to play out the Edes units against the Elas units?
A No, that wasn't my intention. My intention was to limit as far as possible the band warfare in Greece and for this reason I tried to achieve a so-called non-aggression pact with General Zervas, that is, to stop the mutual fighting. That was my intention.
Q General Lanz, you made superior orders part of your defense to the charges brought against you. Would you have ignored an OKW order to shoot prisoners of war, if you had received one?
A I don't think so.
Q In spite of the fact that it came from your superior?
A That is a very difficult question of conscience which you are putting here, and you will admit, Mr. Fenstermacher, that the question is much easier to put than to answer. In my case, to conform with my own inner conscience, I must reject this question.
Q As a matter of fact, General Lanz, doesn't paragraph 47 of your own military penal code tell you that you should not obey unlawful orders?
A Yes, it says literally: "The person who carried it out shares the punishment with the perpetrator, if it is known to him that the order ends at a crime."
Q You disobeyed, General Lanz, according to your testimony, a Hitler order while you were in Russia, you disobeyed the Commissar order, you disobeyed the military mission order, you disobeyed on Italian surrender order from Hitler, and you negotiated with General Zervas in spite of being told not to do so by Army Group E. How do you explain your failure to carry out such orders if you considered it your duty to obey the orders of your superiors?
A These orders I regarded in view of the situation and thought about them in view of the situation and carried them out also in this sense. In these very difficult cases, I tried to somehow bring my conscience into line with my duty with regard to carrying out these orders, and you must remember that this was not always easy for us.
Q You talked, General Lanz, about General Sponeck, and about General Heim, and General Hoeppner, and you indicated, I believe, that they had been executed for failure to carry out orders of their superiors, or have I misunderstood you?
A This isn't quite right. I didn't say that they were executed, but said that they were punished, and this was in connection with tactical orders which they did not carry out in Russia. It was in connection with this.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Mr. Fenstermacher, we will conclude, the day's session, and the Tribunal will adjourn until Monday, December 1, 1947, at 9:30 a.m.
(The Tribunal recessed until 0930 hours, 1 December 1947).