Q. Was this known within the circle of Wehrmacht priests?
A. Yes, not only in circles of Wehrmacht priests but also by all believing soldiers and officers.
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
Q And was Field Marshal von Weichs regarded as one of those high Generals who were especially interested in the organization of spiritual and religious welfare in the Wehrmacht?
A This last thing was only known to the Wehrmacht priests.
Q Thank you very much, Witness, I have no further questions.
JUDGE BURKE: Any further questions on the part of other members of the defense counsel staff? Apparently not, Mr. Fenstermacher, you may cross-examine.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I have no questions, Your Honor.
JUDGE BURKE: Very well, you may be excused.
(The witness is excused.)
General Lanz, you may return to the stand.
HUBERT LANZ - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION - (Continued) BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q General Lanz, did the O.K.W. hold you responsible for what the Corps Group Joannina did while you were in Hungary?
A I am sorry I did not get it quite clearly, who held me responsible?
Q Did the O.K.W. hold you for what the Corps Group Joannina did?
A Not as far as I know, I don't know anything about this.
Q I believe you testified about this in your direct examination, General Lanz, that no one from your Corps area was deported for labor in Germany?
A I said that I don't remember any case of deportation, on the other hand, I remember that from time to time prisoners were sent to work on the roads by me. I said something about that.
Q Would you look now at Document Book 19, at page 148 of the German, page 136 of the English, you will note there those file notes for the Commanding General under paragraph B, "For labor employment in Germany, deported 160 persons"?
A That was the case which I mentioned in my direct examination.
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
When I found out about this incident from the other report of my I-c I expressly ordered that no one was to be sent away, but that the people should remain in my area because there was work to be done there by them on the roads. That was just the note to intervene here. I think I mentioned that in my direct examination.
Q Weren't these 150 persons already deported by the time you made these notes?
A Just a moment, it states there at the bottom of this, there are at present 56 still in the prisons collecting point, I cannot establish that exactly, but at any rate when I found out about this I intervened at once as I did not want this to happen.
Q And to your knowledge, none of these 150 persons were ever sent to Germany?
A I cannot say exactly, in any case I intervened when I found out about it. I can say that definitely.
Q Now, your Ic, who I believe was named Lenthe?
A Yes.
Q .... Sent in an affidavit that to his knowledge no persons in your Corps anywhere were used to construct fortifications?
A Well, fortifications did not come into the question at all, perhaps trenches are something like that are meant. I cannot remember what he wrote at the moment.
Q To your knowledge were any of the Greek population used to construct trenches or any other fortifications in your Corps area?
AAt the moment I cannot remember one single case where this happened. I can only remember that people, as I said, were temporarily used on road building.
Q Would you consider the use of the Greek population for work on fortifications a violation of International law, General Lanz?
A In any case I would regard it as undesirable for the population to be sent to work in this way and I certainly would avoid it when I could.
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
Q Would you be opposed to it because of its unlawfulness?
A Yes, I would agree with that, but in my opinion if I am correctly informed according to International Laws of War the inhabitants are not allowed to be sent to work on war undertakings, but I would like to adhere that when this law was made the concept of a war undertaking was comparatively narrow, while today a total war comprises almost everything, so that nearly everything can be regarded as a war undertaking.
Q Would you look now, General Lanz, at NOKW 625. Your Honors....
JUDGE BURKE: This is page?
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q I beg your pardon, Your Honors. General Lanz, this is a report to your XXII Mountain Corps headquarters and you will note the receipt stamp of your headquarters for 2 March 1944. Was this Division subordinate to you at that time?
A Yes, it was subordinate to me at that time.
Q You will note what the document says, "The Division reports the following to the above reference. The evacuation of Sarande is in progress....."
JUDGE BURKE: Did you give an exhibit number to this document?
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Yes, Your Honors, it is Exhibit 625.
"The women and children to be evacuated will be sheltered in the localities lying east of Sarande. The male population is still to remain in Sarande for the time being and will be brought up to work on fortifications."
Do you remember having seen this document?
A No, I did not see this report, otherwise I would have initialed it. There is something written on it, some kind of initial that I cannot decipher, but my initial is not on it. I cannot remember that this was reported to me. This was shortly before I left for Hungary.
Q The reference, General Lanz, is to an inquiry of your Ia of the 27th February, 1944, did you institute any inquiries that you know of Court No. V, Case No. VII.
regarding this particular evacuation?
A No, I cannot remember this incident at all, in any case this whole thing does not express my attitude or my desire.
Q Now, regarding the evacuation of Jews from the Island of Korfu, General Lanz, I believe you stated that you were indifferent to that particular matter and in any event did not cooperate with the SS, who was in charge of the operation?
A No, that is not quite correct. I was not indifferent to it as you say, but I was opposed to the measures, but I could not prevent it and I wanted to have nothing to do with this matter. That is what I stated.
Q Did you ever object to Army Group E on the grounds that you were opposed to treating Jews differently from any other persons in your Corps area?
A Probably I expressed my opinion to the Chief of Staff of the Army Group, and in addition I know from a report which my Chief of Staff signed that this whole matter was undesirable, but if it had to be carried out it had to be done; but he expressly stressed that there was no shipping space available. That is what can be found set down somewhere.
Q Were you opposed to this evacuation for military reasons only or were you also opposed because of the distinction made between Jews and other persons in your area?
A Military reasons played no part in this at all. I was against it for humane reasons because I couldn't see why these measures had to be carried out, I couldn't agree with them.
Q Did you specifically say to Army Croup E, "I am opposed to this operation because I disagree with this particular treatment of Jews", is that the reason why you opposed the evacuation?
A Of course, I can't literally remember today what I said. I only know my fundamental altitude towards the measure was expressed to the Army Group and my attitude was, as I have just stated. This whole affair was repugnant to me.
Q You stated, General Lanz, that the population of your area could come to see you at any time at your headquarters and protest to you?
A In any case, I told the Greek authorities whose representatives were frequently with me, that they could come to me at any time if they had any troubles, and it is also a fact that they made use of this offer, and it is also a fact that numerous members of the civilian population came to me in order to tell me about any kind of trouble they had.
Q Did any Jews come to you and protest against the evacuation of other Jews from Korfu?
A During the Korfu period, I don't know this, out I know that in autumn 1943 the Jews from Joannina turned to me through my ADC because they were afraid that some kind of steps would be taken against time. At that time, of course, I had nothing against these people, and I told them that as far as I could prevent it, nothing would happen to them, and I did that with a good and honest conscience; and I also think that in one of the affidavits there is something contained with regard to this, if I am not mistaken.
AAmy Group E was not opposed to the evacuation, were they, General Lanz, you say they agreed, at least, they agreed to cooperate with the SS to the extent of supplying shipping space for the evaluation?
A I really cannot state anything about the attitude of Army Group E. I must honestly say I didn't worry myself very much about it, but I assume that Army Group E was under a certain pressure during this action because at that time there was a general pressure with regard to this question.
Q Amy Group E ordered you to place shipping space at the disposal of the SS for the evacuation, if it were possible, from the military standpoints to do so, did they not?
A Yes, I think there is some teletype in the files about it along these lines, but I didn't have any shipping space.
Q Wasn't it possible for you, General Lanz, for you as the tactical commander to oppose this evacuation on the ground that it would interfere with your military operations and therefore should not be carried out?
A I made this objection, but it didn't get through because the pressure from the very top was much too great.
Q As tactical commander, couldn't you have prevented any action taking place within your Corps Area on the ground that it would disrupt your duties as a combat leader?
A With regard to this question, I have already made some indications during my examination. It shows a misunderstanding of the situation at that time, if one imagines that a commander could actually have prevented such a measure as this.
Q Were Jews in fact deported from the Island of Korfu, General Lanz?
AAs far as I have read in some report or other, I think perhaps 1780 were deported, or something like that.
Q How were they evacuated, if you didn't have any shipping space to put at the disposal of the SS?
A The shipping space after a lot of difficulty, I assume, was made available by the so-called Admiral Aegaeis who was responsible for these things.
Q Could you have ordered the Admiral not to put the ships at the disposal of the SS?
A No, the Admiral was in no way subordinate to me.
Q The Island of Korfu was subordinate to you, was it not?
A Yes, that was tactically subordinate to me.
Q Now, General Lanz, you recall the testimony of the witness Tryandaphilodis who said that your emissaries came to General Zervas and threatened to burn down all of the Epirus area if his attacks upon your troops did not cease. Is that the message your emissaries took to Zervas?
A No, my emissaries never told General Zervas that. The emissary, this was Mr. Bickel from Switzerland, told General Zervas that I was trying to get peaceful relations with General Zervas, and I already stated something about the further course of affairs.
Q Wasn't it part of your policy in Greece to try and divide and conquer, that is to say, didn't you try to play out the Edes units against the Elas units?
A No, that wasn't my intention. My intention was to limit as far as possible the band warfare in Greece and for this reason I tried to achieve a so-called non-aggression pact with General Zervas, that is, to stop the mutual fighting. That was my intention.
Q General Lanz, you made superior orders part of your defense to the charges brought against you. Would you have ignored an OKW order to shoot prisoners of war, if you had received one?
A I don't think so.
Q In spite of the fact that it came from your superior?
A That is a very difficult question of conscience which you are putting here, and you will admit, Mr. Fenstermacher, that the question is much easier to put than to answer. In my case, to conform with my own inner conscience, I must reject this question.
Q As a matter of fact, General Lanz, doesn't paragraph 47 of your own military penal code tell you that you should not obey unlawful orders?
A Yes, it says literally: "The person who carried it out shares the punishment with the perpetrator, if it is known to him that the order ends at a crime."
Q You disobeyed, General Lanz, according to your testimony, a Hitler order while you were in Russia, you disobeyed the Commissar order, you disobeyed the military mission order, you disobeyed on Italian surrender order from Hitler, and you negotiated with General Zervas in spite of being told not to do so by Army Group E. How do you explain your failure to carry out such orders if you considered it your duty to obey the orders of your superiors?
A These orders I regarded in view of the situation and thought about them in view of the situation and carried them out also in this sense. In these very difficult cases, I tried to somehow bring my conscience into line with my duty with regard to carrying out these orders, and you must remember that this was not always easy for us.
Q You talked, General Lanz, about General Sponeck, and about General Heim, and General Hoeppner, and you indicated, I believe, that they had been executed for failure to carry out orders of their superiors, or have I misunderstood you?
A This isn't quite right. I didn't say that they were executed, but said that they were punished, and this was in connection with tactical orders which they did not carry out in Russia. It was in connection with this.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Mr. Fenstermacher, we will conclude, the day's session, and the Tribunal will adjourn until Monday, December 1, 1947, at 9:30 a.m.
(The Tribunal recessed until 0930 hours, 1 December 1947).
Official Transcript of Military Tribunal V, Case VII, in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 1 December 1947, 0930, Justice Wennerstrum presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom take their seats, please.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if all the defendants are present in the Courtroom?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all the defendants are present in the Courtroom with the exception of defendant von Weichs who is in the hospital.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Mr. Fenstermacher.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) Defendant Hubert Lanz BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q General Lanz, before the Tribunal adjourned last Wednesday, we were discussing the question of your obedience to orders which you received from your military superiors. Certain of the orders which you received from higher offices you obeyed and others you testified you disobeyed. Will you tell us what criterion you used in determining whether or not you would obey orders of your superiors?
A Frequently, one found oneself in a position where it became difficult to decide whether to obey the superior order or whether to obey one's conscience. Therefore, one had to decide of course on obeying to the best extent possible from case to case how one wanted to act.
Q Is it true that you obeyed those orders which you wanted to obey and you disobeyed those which you did not want to obey and that the question of their coming from a superior was immaterial to you?
A I believe that to put it that way is not quite correct. I think one cannot make general comments about the subject; it would always depend on the particular situation in which one might find oneself. To give a basic attitude is not possible for me because that would give a wrong picture of the whole complex.
Q Now your Ic Lenthe was a lawyer and the division subordinate
A He was a lawyer, that is correct.
Q And the division had a court and the army group had a court, did it not?
A That is correct.
Q Did you ever ask either Lenthe or the division and army group judges whether or not orders which you had received from your superior officers were unlawful or not?
A It is quite possible that I discussed the subject with the captain of cavalry, Lenthe. The orders which were received and certain doubts which might have arisen on the basis of those orders in some cases concerned with the sphere of work of the Ic. Our discussions of these things with the divisional judge - I do not remember at the moment but it is quite possible that I did that during such time where I had no court of my own. I endeavored immediately after my arrival in Greece when I organized my staff to get a court right away so that I would be advised. However, despite the constant pressure on my part, I only managed to et a court at the beginning of January of 1944.
Q You didn't have to be a lawyer or a jurist, did you General Lanz, to know that the Commissar and Commander Orders and the ten-toone and fifty-to-one hostage orders were unlawful, did you?
A I think the things weren't quite as easy as they are being described here now. Whether a hostage order one-to-ten can quite generally be called illegal I have very grave doubts about that. One could dispute that fact and argue it. The exaggerated analysing in judging these orders only arose here during the trials in Numberg.
At the time, concerned, circumstances were somewhat different and therefore the problems were judged and thought about in quite a different way. This is what I want to say, basically. I have mentioned before that even the Allies issued orders with a certain ratio; furthermore. I would like to say, on principle that we had to maintain the point of view that orders which came from the OKW had been screened principally because this agency had after all, all experts which it could possibly want so that we could not see any reason off hand to regard such orders coming from the highest agency as being suspicious of illegality.
Q There is nothing in the German Military Penal Code, General Lanz, that says that an inferior officer might assume that orders from his superior officers are lawful, is there?
A That is not provided, that is correct, out the contrary is not provided either.
Q You knew that the Commissar Order was unlawful. Didn't that make you suspicious that other orders coming from OKW were similarly unlawful?
A Of course, this lead to certain misgivings. I admit that, but I still was in no way justified to regard all orders coming from higher agencies as unlawful.
Q What is the meaning of paragraph 47, General Lanz, if you were permitted to assume that all orders coming from your superior officers were lawful?
THE PRESIDENT: Paragraph 47 of what?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: That is of the German Military Code, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I thought so, but it might be well for the record to have it if several other things bear a similar number.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I'm sorry, Your Honor.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q What do you believe that paragraph 47 of the German Military Penal Code means, General Lanz, if an inferior officer by your testimony is permitted to assume that all orders coming from his superior officers are lawful?
A I think that paragraph 47 had the purpose to prevent that an obvious crime or offense was committed, let us say theft or rape or perjury or murder or something like that. Such an obvious crime or offense was to be prevented by this paragraph. It was supposed to be prevented that such an obvious crime was ordered by a superior officer to an inferior officer and that this inferior officer was forced to commit this crime or offense. That is where I see the reason for paragraph 47.
Q You don't believe that the Commissar and Commando orders which provided for the execution of captured prisoners of war had to do with an obvious crime?
A Paragraph 47 can be brought in connection with such an affair if one maintains the attitude that this is killing of prisoners of war. If that fact is presumed as given, then undoubtedly paragraph 47 can be brought in connection with this.
Q What were the consequences of disobedience of superior orders in the German army during the last war, General Lanz?
A This question cannot be answered in a general way. If I am to answer it, I have to answer it generally. The consequence of disobedience was punishment.
Q Nothing happened to you other than retirement for a few months following your disobedience of a Hitler order in Russia. Isn't that true?
A It is not wrong what you are saying but after all one cannot know that beforehand.
Q Was your salary discontinued?
A No, it was not discontinued.
Q You weren't court-martialed?
A No, I wasn't court-martialed.
Q You weren't discharged dishonorably from the army?
A No.
Q No reprisals were taken against your family?
A No, not in that case. But again one couldn't know that beforehand.
Q General Lanz, can you name a single German general who was ever court-martialed or executed for disobedience of a superior order on the grounds that that order was unlawful?
AAt the moment, I remember General Count Sponeck. He, in the Crimea near Feodosia, did not obey an order to hold a position. Instead.
he withdrew. There is a, certain similarity with my own actions near Charkov. This general was later sentenced. I don't know the details because I didn't see the files; for a long time he was detained in the fortress Germersheim and later on he was shot.
Q Sponeck disobeyed a tactical order of Hitler, isn't that so? He retreated in the face of the Russians that landed on the Kerch peninsula.
A I assume, that, yes. That was similar with my own action near Charkov.
Q Sponeck didn't disobey that order because he considered it unlawful? He simply considered it unwise from a military standpoint?
A I can't give you his reasons because I can't imagine what kind of point of view he had at the time. I didn't discuss it with him.
Q Now Sponeck was tried by a court-martial and sentenced to death but the verdict was commuted to six years' imprisonment, was it not?
A I am afraid I can't tell you that in detail. I didn't see the verdict. I only know about it from hearsay.
Q And after being in prison for a few months, he was released, was he not? And executed only later in connection with the 20th of July Putsch?
A I never heard that he was released. Therefore, I cannot say that with certainty. You have probably got better information than I have.
Q Isn't it true, General Lanz, that Sponeck was executed in connection with the attempt on Hitler's life and not because of disobedience of the Hitler order?
A That again I cannot tell you: I have no detailed information why he was shot. All I know is that he was shot. That is what I was told in Germersheim but I may be mistaken.
Q How you talked about General Ferdinand Heim, also, isn't it true
A Yes.
Q Isn't it true that Heim was dismissed because he disobeyed a tactical order at the time the Russians penetrated the Rumanian lines at the end of 1942?
And not because he disobeyed an order on the grounds of its being unlawful?
A That may well be possible. To the best of my knowledge, he was treated in a very unpleasant manner in connection with the events of Stalingrad.
Q There was no court-martial against Heim, was there?
A To the best of my knowledge, he was dishonorably discharged from the Wehrmacht and for sometime he was in the prison or penitentiary in Moabit in Berlin.
Q He was later restored to the army, was he not?
AAbout approximately two years he spent in prison; then he was brought to a hospital because he was sick and then he wan discharged from the hospital. Later on for quite some time he was at home to the best of my knowledge and later on he succeeded to be rehabilitated and got a new assignment.
Q Someone can't say that he was executed for disobeying a superior order?
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me just a minute. It seems to me you are questioning the witness on matters which necessarily will have to be hearsay on his part and matters of which he has no personal knowledge. Can we limit it to something about which he has some definite personal information?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Very well, Your Honor.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Do you know, yourself, General Lanz, the details of General Hoeppner's dismissal from the army?
A I don't know the details. I only know that Hoeppner wan chased away, if I may put it that way, in a very unpleasant manner again, but I don't know the details.
Q Do you know why he was executed?
A I can't tell you that either with certainty.
Q Was it in connection with the 20th of July Putsch, do you know?
A I believe that the picture is this, around the plot of 20 July, or as of an earlier time, in connection with the Roehm plot, the opportunity was used to eliminate all people who, at any time, showed a negative attitude against the system or acted in any way against it. I don't think it is correct to say that all these people were executed because of the events of 20 July. I rather think that this opportunity was used just as the Schleicher affair, which was on the occasion of the Roehm Putsch to eliminate these people. I think that is the proper way of showing it.
Q When was it that General Hoeppner was dismissed from the army?
A To the best of my recollection it was at the beginning of the Russian campaign. I may be mistaken on this. I have not prepared myself to answer these questions, nor have I any information about it.
Q I believe you stated at the time of the evacuation of the Jews from Corfu you addressed a letter to the Army Corps E against the evacuation because it was militarily unwise and ethically and morally in violation of your principles?
A That is approximately correct, the way you put it.
Q Will you look now at this document, please, NOKW-1915, which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 626.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I suggest, Your Honors, this be paginated page 1 through page 10.
Q Would you turn now, General Lanz, to page 6 of the document which you have (page 4 of Your Honors' Document) - this is a communication from your 22nd Mountain Corps Headquarters to Army Group E, dated 18 May 1944. Subject: "Evacuation of Jews from Corfu."
Enclosed is submitted a copy of the report from the Island Commander Corfu dated 14 May 1944, according to which the SD at Joannina intends to evacuate the Jews on Corfu.
Corps Headquarters considers the intended measure only expedient if the evacuation is carried out suddenly together with immediate and complete removal, since otherwise the disadvantageous effect emphasized in the attached report would be unavoidable.
Transportation space is presently not available for such a number of people.
You appear here, General Lanz, to base your protest against the evacuation solely on military matters?
A It may well be that when launching this protest about which I just have this document now, and I have no documents proving what I discussed with the Army group itself, it may well be that in the case present here I launched this protest in a military form. That is quite possible.
Q The report which you enclosed in this report to Army Group E is dated 14 May 1944, and it is from Col. Jaeger to your headquarters.
It reads:
Q On 13 May 1944 SS Obersturmfuehrer von Hanowsky reported to the Island Commander with an order from the Reichsfuehrer SS to send away the Jews from Corfu.
Since this measure depends on the amount of shipping space furnishedit is a matter of about 1800 - 2000 Jews - this was requested from the Admiral Aegean. A full answer has not been received up to this hour. In the meantime the SS Obersturmfuehrer has departed."
Then the report continues with a discussion of the details involved in the proposed evacuation, and at the end of paragraph 7 is a summary:
Corfu is a military outpost. It cannot be desirable to evacuate the Jews at the price of a loss of morale of the troops, effective strengthening of enemy intelligence work, stirring up band activity, and a loss of ethical prestige in the eyes of the population. The latter would be because the unavoidable brutalities would only have a repulsive effect. In addition there is the inability to carry out this operation quickly and painlessly.
Did Colonel Jaeger ever discuss with you the question of the nonavoidable brutalities that could have occurred?