I do know, however, that some officers were transported off Kephalonia together with the other prisoners.
Q. How does it happen that your report states that all of the officer of Gandin's were shot?
A. May I ask you what report you have reference to?
Q. Document Book 19, General Lanz, at page 88, of the German, page 66 of the English. In the English, Your Honors, it is on page 67. You will note there, General Lanz, that on the 24th of September, 1943, Army Group E reports under your Corps that General Gandin and all his officers were shot and the previous report on the preceding page for the 23rd of September -one day earlier -- states that you captured General Gandin and his staff. Were all these courts-martial concluded within one day?
A. I suppose that the report saying "all officers shot" is intended as a supplement to the report -- which preceded it, and that this supplement refers to General Gandin and his staff.
Q. How many officers were there on General Gandin's staff?
A. I am afraid again I can't give you an exact figure. I could only estimate.
Q. Well, would you estimate, please?
A. It was a divisional staff, and I would estimate that there were about fifteen to twenty officers in that staff. That would be in comparison with a German divisional staff.
Q. And how many officers were there in the whole division?
A. I am afraid that again I cannot tell you with any exactitude. I would estimate about 200.
Q. How many officers do you believe were actually shot?
A. I have stated that to the best of my knowledge General Gandin, his Chief-of Staff and some of the officers in his staff were executed. If I gave you a figure I did only hasard a guess.
Q. Now, in the report of Army Group E under your Corps, for the 23rd of September, the report which talks about the capture of General Gandin and his staff, it is stated that special treatment according to the Fuehrer decree is to be given to the officers.
What was so special about this treatment, General Lanz, if it was simply the routine way of dealing with mutineers?
A. The special treatment was to mean that the people were to be shot after a summary court-martial.
Q Is there anything special about that kind of treatment regarding the way you handled mutineers?
A I don't quite know what this question is driving at. I don't quite know how I should answer it.
Q Well, General Lanz, if mutineers were involved here, wouldn't the report simply say Italian officers handled in the usual way -because they had committed mutiny? Why do you use the term, "special treatment"?
A Well, I didn't ponder that problem up to now.
Q General Lanz, how far away was the judge who was with the Division at this time? I believe you stated that you had no court with your Corps at this time, but the Division had a court.
A The Division was in Joannina.
Q Did you ever ask the head of the Zudicial Department of the Division what he thought about this whole procedure?
A I believe I talked to him about it.
Q Did he tell you it was in accordance with international law to treat the Italian officers in this way?
A If I remember correctly, he said that a Fuehrer Order was in existence and therefore he as Divisional Judge could not change anything in the matter. That was a special case, an exception.
Q General Lanz, you stated that one of the motives for your strict treatment of General Gandic was the fact that you had suffered losses in the course of the combat, about forty or fifty wounded -- I beg your pardon, about forty or fifty killed and about a hundred wounded.
A No, that is not what I said. I didn't say that was one of the reasons. The losses had occurred as a consequence of the combat, and these combat actions in my opinion were superfluous and regrettable. I had honestly endeavored to avoid this fighting.
Q Are you quite sure the Italian losses during the course of the fighting were not greater than a thousand, General Lanz?
AAs I said before, I am unable to give an exact figure, because I could only just guess at it. I mentioned that the Italians losses were comparatively high, which I remember from the combat report which I saw. That's all I can say about it.
Q If you will look at NOKW--1857, which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 623, Your Honors -- these are excerpts from the war diary of your higher headquarters Army Group E. Will you look at paragraph 4, under the entry 1425 hours, which I believe is on page 4 of the original document -- page 1 of your Honor's exhibit. It says there, General Lanz, that "in case of refusal, the Italian commanders responsible for the resistance are to be shot as franctireurs. Independently of this, the Italian commanders responsible for the resistance are to be shot after capture."
Now, would you turn, General Lanz, to the entry under the 24th of December, 1943, which I believe is on page 5 of your document, second page of Your Honor's exhibit, under Kephalonia:
"Mopping-up of Kephalonia concluded up to the northern point and to Ithaca. About 4000 Italians killed or shot, about 5000 Italians captured, since for the most part they deserted without weapons in closed battalions outside the combat zone. All officers shot."
General Lanz, you will note that it says there, "About 4000 Italians killed or shot." What does that mean?
A These 4000 Italians were killed during combat action and shot during combat action.
Q You don't think there is a distinction between Italians killed in battle and other Italians shot after the combat?
A That is difficult to establish now. Up till now I didn't know anything about it, that Italians were supposed to have been shot after the combat action. According to what I saw on the spot, these people were killed in action.
Q You believe this entry is erroneous, General Lanz?
A I don't mean to say that. I don't know who made the entry.
Q Why should the person who made that entry distinguish between killed and shot?
A I don't know where that difference originates from. I don't know. All I know is that the Italians fought there and were killed in action. That is the extent of my information up till now.
Q How many Italian officers were shot as a result of their resistance to German troops on the Island of Korfu, General Lanz?
A To the best of my recollection about eight to ten. That is what I stated on direct examination.
Q I believe you said that you knew that the Corps Commander had been shot.
A No, not the Corps Commander; the Regimental Commander.
Q He was the Commander of the Island?
A Yes.
Q Now, your I-c, Rothfuchs, sent in an affidavit according to which he does not remember that Island Commander was shot. Would your I-c have known that?
A I would really suppose that he ought to have known that, because the First Mountain Division was the division assigned to these fights. General von Stettner was in charge of the operation.
Q Do you believe, then, that Rothfuchs made a mistake in his affidavit on that point?
A I wouldn't go as far as saying that. I cannot judge what Rothfuchs remembered and what he didn't remember. I cannot comment on his memory.
Q What were your losses and what were the Italians' losses in the fighting on Korfu?
A If I remember correctly, I stated our losses as being about sixty men having drowned and the balance of the losses -- or rather, the total losses I estimated at eighty to one hundred.
Q And how many Italian losses?
A To the best of my knowledge I didn't make any statements as to that. I can't do that, because I don't know.
Q How many Italian officers were there in the Korfu Detachment?
A I am afraid I can't tell you that exactly, because to the best of my recollection a number of Italians from Albania were in Korfu and the original occupation force of the island had thus become stronger than it had originally been. And allegedly, approximately 6,000 Italians were to have been on Korfu, but again I must say I can't make any exact statements.
Q Would you look, General Lanz, at page 10 of the original document which you have there -- this is on page 3 of Your Honor's exhibit. To the entry in Army Group E's war diary for the 29th of September, 1310 hours:
"Final report; On Korfu about 600 Italians killed or shot; 10,000 deserted without weapons, mostly in closed battalions. Officers, special treatment according to Fuehrer Order."
Again you will note, General Lanz, that it is stated that 600 Italians were killed or shot. Do you have any explanation for that.
A.- I can only repeat what I said before when I talked about Kephalenia, I have no explanation.
Q.- How many officers, General Lanz, were shot during the resistance at Sarande?
A.- As far as I can see it from the lists, which I received here, there were I believe 74.
Q.- And were they all from your single battle battalion?
A.- No, they belonged to various troop units, which in the course of the combat actions had been taken prisoner in Southern Albania.
Q.- Were all those officers given Courts martial before they were shot do you know?
A.- General Stettner, in reply to my inquiring, answered that in the affirmative, that was done by the 1st Mountain Division without my knowledge and contrary to my original order.
Q.- Contrary to this, wasn't this whole Italian affair a political affair rather than a judicial or military affair primarily?
A.- I could not follow what you mean.
Q.- Well, perhaps you will take a look at Document Lanz 218, this is offered as Prosecution Exhibit Lanz 264, Your Honors. At the moment no German documents can be distributed, but we will have them in a day or so, meanwhile Dr. Sauter has a photostat copy for his examination.
General Lanz, would you turn to document B, which is on page 3 of Your Honors' copy, this is a communication from Dr. Lehmann, dated Berlin, 30 September, 1943; do you know who Dr. Lehmann was?
A.- To the best of my recollection, he was a judge in the OKW, there was a judge of that name, but I may be wrong.
Q.- The subject of his communication is "Principal rules for the treatment of soldiers of the Italian Armed Forces and the Militia of 15 September 1943." You will note, he has reference there to Hitler's Order of 15 September, 1943, which we have already concerned ourselves with in Document Book 19.
He states: "With regard to Paragraph 11, Number 3 of the "Principal Rules'" and that you will note refers to Italian officers who actively or passively offered resistance - they shall be shot as insurgents. According to information received by the High Command of the Armed Forces this Fuehrer Order is to be considered a political measure without creating any judicial competency. The Supreme Command of the Armed Forces asks that the courts be instructed accordingly."
JUDGE BURKE: Would you please repeat the last?
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q.- Do you happen to know what Dr. Lehmann has in mind with regard to this communication?
A.- I read this communication for the first time today. I did not know it up to now since I myself had no such order at the time and had no knowledge of it.
Q.- Isn't this an indication, General Lanz, that the Courts are to have nothing to do with the treatment of Italian soldiers and in fact, they are to be shot without court martial procedure?
A.- One might assume this from the document, but as I stated I did not know anything about it until now, I was not concerned with it up until now.
Q.- Now would you turn, General Lanz, to page 97 of the German document, page 99 of the English, Your Honors. I believe you stated, General Lanz that you considered an order not to take prisoners to be in violation of International law?
A.- Yes, I said that.
Q.- You passed this order not to take prisoners during the operation "verrat", did you not?
A.- I did not pass it, nor I did not know that the order was passed by my office without my knowing it to the 1st Mountain Division.
Q.- Was it customary for your subordinates, either your 1a or 1c, to pass on orders of tills kind without telling you about it?
A.- It was not customary, but it could happen. I don't know what the circumstances were at the time when we received the order. I don't know who passed it on, I can only say it was not I who passed it on, as I would not have done this.
Q.- Did you first hear about this order here in Nurnberg or had you known about it before?
A.- I read it here in this document.
Q.- For the first time?
A.- Yes, I read it here.
Q.- Would you also have disapproved of the Brandenburg Regiment wearing Italian uniforms during the course of an action if you had known about that fact?
A.- I was never in a position to have to refute that because that Regiment was committed without my doing anything about it or knowing anything about it. As a matter of fact it was not committed at all and later on one unit complained about me.
Q.- As a matter of fact, it was simply an error on the part of the Regiment regarding their landing and taking part in the undertaking?
A.- Certainly, that is how I described it, these people made an error as to time, they were too late and there was no use for them anymore, but this planned committment did not originate from an order by me, but this regiment was directly assigned to the Division.
Q.- If you had known about the Brandenburg Regiment wearing Italian uniform in a combat action against other Italian units, would you have permitted that action?
A.- If I had been in a position to avoid it, I would certainly have done that. I was no friend of such practices.
Q.- Before the Brandenburg Regiment took part in tactical operations they had to have your permission as tactical superior in Greece, did they not?
A.- That is correct in the formal sense, but in this particular case the situation was slightly different. This regiment received directives immediately from the Army Group and in order to save the detour via Joan nina these directives were immediately sent to Igumenica or Sarande. At least they were never in my area, besides they were pressed for time because they were late.
Q.- Who was in charge of the Corps Group Jeanina while you were in Hungary, General Lanz?
A.- Whom it was subordinate to? It was subordinate to Major General von Ludwiger, he was Commander of the 104th Rifle Division, he deputized for me.
Q.- You had a Court Martial operating in Jeannina while you were in Hungary, did you not, General Lanz?
A.- What do you mean in Jeannina?
Q.- While you were in Hungary you had a Corps Court operating in Jeanina, isn't that so?
A.- At the moment I cannot state with certainty whether the Court remained behind in Jeannina or whether it came with me at the moment, as I know parts of my staff accompanied me and I cannot state with certainty whether the Court came with me.
Q.- Do you recall one of your affiants stating that your Corps Court punished one of the judges for firing at a Jewish shop in the Agrinien area?
A.- The looting of the shop had not taken place in Agrinien, it was in Hungary. I believe you are making a mistake there.
Q.- Perhaps, I have, General Lanz.......
THE PRESIDENT: While you are checking the subject, we will take our afternoon recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will be seated please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. SAUTER: Dr. Sauter for the Defendant Lanz. May it please the Tribunal, we have here a witness, and I have agreed with Mr. Fenstermacher that the cross-examination be interrupted at this moment so that the witness can be examined. We will be finished with the witness today. The witness is, at the moment, here, but he must leave Nurnberg tomorrow, I would therefore, ask that the Tribunal allow the cross-examination of the Defendant Lanz to be interrupted here so that this witness, Georg Lipp, can be examined here.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: That course may be pursued.
DR. SAUTER: General Lanz, would you please return to your place in the dock?
(GENERAL LANZ RETIRES TO THE DOCK)
GEORG LIPP, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE:
You will repeat after me please: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing. (THE WITNESS REPEATED THE OATH) You may be seated.
DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Witness, would you please state your full name?
A Georg Lipp.
Q When were you born?
A On the 15th of April 1904.
Q And what is your profession?
A I am a Studienrat, that is, a high school teacher.
Q And a Catholic clergyman?
A Yes, I am a Catholic clergyman.
Q And where do you live?
A In Rosenheim, Upper Bavaria.
Q Witness, after each question would you please make a brief pause so that the questions and answers can be translated? -
Q Do you know General Lanz?
A Yes, I have known General Lanz since 1938.
Q Where did you first meet him?
A I met him in Bad Reichenhall. Then he was Commander of the 100th Jaeger Regiment.
Q And did you also meet General Lanz during the war? Were you amongst his troops? How is it that you can state anything about him and about his attitude during the war?
A Since 1938, except for a few months, I was, without a break, with the Regiment, and later on I was with the Division under his command.
Q And what position did you hold? What official position did you hold with the troops under General Lanz?
A During this period I was Catholic Divisional Chaplain, and my task was to look after the spiritual needs of the Catholics who were under the command of General Lanz.
Q And during this period did you have only official contact with General Lanz or did you also have any social relations with him?
A Because of his attitude and because of his deep faith, apart from official dealings I had very much to do with his family and also with him personally about pending religious or military questions.
Q And, Witness, what can you tell us about the ideological opinions of General Lanz which you found out from conversations with him and from his actions?
AAt the very first meeting with him in Bad Reichenhall he expressed to me quite clearly that my work in looking after the souls of his men was absolutely supported by him because he did not agree with the ideology.
Heotook part in all the services in the garrison headquarters, and later on outside in the field, and he was always in the forefronts of these services.
Q And how then did the troops who served under General Lanz regard this emphasized Christian attitude of General Lanz?
A The troops who, for the most part, came from Upper Bavaria, were thankful for this unique example.
Q You say, Witness, that General Lanz even at the first meeting with you made no secret of the fact that he himself did not agree with National Socialist ideology. Did he make any derogatory remarks about decidedly National Socialist actions on the part of the State or the Party or did he agree with them?
A With regard to all the measures taken by this State, measures contrary to all natural laws of decency, contrary to morals and against the church, and concerned questions of education, of youth etc. he expressed his strong disapproval. This he did even in the presence of National Socialist officers. Therefore, in no way did he take his own person into account at all.
Q Well then during the war when did you come to General Lanz? Was that before the beginning of the Russian Campaign, which, as is known, started in tho summer of 1941, or was it after that?
A I came to General Lanz and remained with him uninterruptedly from November, 1940 until he left in January, 1943.
Q At the beginning of the Russian Campaign did anything happen between you and General Lanz which made a special impression upon you? That is, immediately before the Russian Campaign?
AA few days before tho beginning of the Russian Campaign the General asked me to hold field services with all parts of his troops. After this had been done I was to report to him. And on this occasion he gave me his will whereupon we had a rather prolonged conversation.
Q And what did he tell you during this conversation, which would, perhaps, be of importance here for this case?
I'm thinking about this will which you yourself mentioned.
A During this conversation he expressed his greatest misgivings about the success of this operation.
Q About the Russian Campaign?
A Yes, the Russian campaign. Because, with his groat knowledge and far-sighted capabilities he could imagine the tragedy which was to come about later on. If he should die he asked that a Catholic priest should bury him, with the express exclusion of all Party officials and National Socialist symbols. Also the publication in the press was only to be of a Christian character.
Q. You mean here, if I understand you correctly, the publication of the death notice, the obituary?
A. Yes, the obituary notice.
Q. Well, what did he mean by that, that this obituary notice should only be of a Christian character?
A. Since he completely rejected National Socialist ideology he also did not want, at some later date, to be regarded and judged in the papers as an N. S. General.
Q. An "N. S. General", means a "National Socialistic inclined general?"
A. Yes, that's what I mean. Furthermore, he asked me to look after his children so that they would be kept away from the influence of the Hitler Youth, or the B. D. M.
Q. "H. J." is the "Hitler Youth", and "B. D. M." is the "National Social Girls Association"?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. These were, then, the last wishes which General Lanz gave to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, can you tell us from your own observations what General Lanz's attitude was towards the civilian population?
A. As in France also for the area of the East and in the Southeast, he repeatedly issued orders which were aimed at protecting the life and the property of the civilian population. I can remember orders which were very severe against excesses committed by the soldiers.
Q. And did he also intervene against excesses committed by officers against plundering or stealing, for instance, or other things, if they were committed by officers?
A. Officers who were found to be guilty of such offenses were called to account before a court martial, or else General Lanz had them transferred to another troop unit.
Q. And do you know, from your own observation, whether General Lanz, while you were his subordinate, also worried himself at all about prisoners of war and what he did in this direction in order to improve the conditions of the prisoners of war?
A. In all cases he tried to obtain food and also to provide medical treatment for the wounded who were brought in. The competent divisional commanders and the doctors were entrusted with this by him, and he himself kept an eye on it all.
Q. And did you take part in conference in which General Lanz told his commanders and his officers to maintain strict discipline and correctness against the population?
A. I often attended commanders' conferences in which he personally made the officers responsible for the relations with the civilian population if they were not carried on smoothly.
Q. Were you with General Lanz when ho went to the Balkans, and did you there serve under his command?
A. In the Balkans I met General Lanz in August 1943, and as the Division had to carry out many mopping-up operations, I was, for a time, under his direct orders, but I often had many conversations or discussions or conferences with General Lanz.
Q. And during these conferences did General Lanz also say anything about his attitude towards the fighting of the various band organizations?
A. General Lanz regretted very much this fighting against the bands, but, since the lives of the troops under his command were endangered by nearly every-day attacks, he saw himself forced, on the other hand, to take action against them.
Q. And did you make any observations as to how, in Greece, General Lanz's personal relations were carried on towards the Greek population? Did he try to cooperate with them, or did he confine himself to giving them orders?
A. Proof of his cooperation can be seen from the one fact alone that Greek officials.....burgermeisters, priests .....were invited to see him, and they also participated in parties in the mess facilities.
Q. I assume, Witness, that you, as a priest, had especially close contact with the other priests in Epirus, the bishops and the priests there. Can you tell us what the judgment of these Greek priests was about General Lanz and about his attitude? What did they tell you about him?
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
A. The Archbishop of Joannina and the Bishop of Paramythia -- they spoke about him in the most grateful words for the care and the trouble which General Lanz took on behalf of the church and for the civilian population.
Q. Witness, do you know from your own observation anything about how General Lanz wanted to have the captured partisans treated?
A. He gave orders with reference to these people according to which all partisans were to be treated in the same way as all the other prisoners of war. They were sent to a prisoner collection center and the wounded partisans were sent to the nearest main dressing station for medical treatment; and later on he personally found out what was being done with them and with his almost daily visits to the main dressing stations and field hospitals, he also,-- excuse me, I have forgotten how to finish it. He also asked for information about this.
Q. Did you observe that with regard to the medical treatment, for instance, of the wounded partisans or any other wounded enemy, he made any kind of difference between the medical treatment given to them and the treatment given to his own soldiers? What differences did he make there if he made any?
A. I only know that, first of all, the German troops were looked after and subsequently the wounded prisoners, but I can testify for certain that no wounded prisoners was left overnight without care.
Q. Witness, can you from your own observation tell us anything about whether or not it is correct that General Lanz was held in extremely high estimation by all his troops because of his great bravery and how did he show this personal bravery?
A. He was always in the very center of the battle in the very front lines, and from there he took every single tactical measure.
His bravery which was founded in his deep faith brought him into the highest esteem of all his troops. In the battle of Uman, as well as in Charkow, 1942, or in the Kaukasus, he disregarded his own person completely and only thought of the welfare of his soldiers. He wanted to know everything about the death of every single soldier who was killed. He wanted this to be accounted for and every single order was well considered before it was given.
Q. Witness, can you remember or were you there when General Lanz expressed that he be asking himself whether in every single case he was doing his duty? Can you remember anything about that?
A. He, after burial services, in which he took part, often expressed to me, "Chaplain, I am always asking myself when I stand at the side of graves whether these dead men can be accounted for in front of God and my conscience and also before their relatives at home?"
Q. Witness, did General Lanz also say anything to you about how he interpreted especially severe orders when they came to him from higher-up, perhaps from Hitler? Did he carry out these orders willingly and did he say anything to you in this sense?
A. With regard to orders from superior offices, including the OKH, or even orders from the Fuehrer, he always expressed the severe of criticism, and these orders were not carried out by him. This criticism was completely frank, and it was also given in the presence of officers, foreign units, or in the presence of his own officers of the Division who were national socialists.
Q. Then a last question, Witness. Did General Lanz, during confidential discussions with you, ever say anything about the fact that he often had conflicts with his conscience with regard to severe orders from above, and he didn't know whether he should carry out the orders or what he should do?
Did he ever express anything to you on these lines, Witness? If he did, then would you please tell the Tribunal?
A. For a Catholic priest, there are things about which we cannot talk even before a Tribunal, but I can say that his last years had been full of continuous conflicts of conscience; because of the sensibility of his conscience, and his great feeling of responsibility and his Christian attitude, he suffered very much if he had to carry out measures which were not in accordance with his Christian conscience.
DR. SAUTER: I have no further questions to the Witness, thank you.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Are there any further questions by defense counsel?
Dr. Laternser.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Your Honor, I would just like to ask a few questions on behalf of Fieldmarshal von Weichs.
Witness, you said that in August 1943 you arrived in the Balkans?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you remain in the Balkans?
A. I remained in the Balkans until August 1944.
Q. And at that time, who was Commander-in-Chief of Army Group F?
A. Commander-in-Chief of Army Group F was Fieldmarshal von Weichs.
Q. What do you know about the attitude of Fieldmarshal von Weichs towards the spiritual needs of the Wehrmacht?
A. Fieldmarshal von Weichs was regarded by all the soldiers in the Balkans as a general who had a very beneficent attitude towards the spiritual needs of the Wehrmacht.