Official Transcript of Military Tribunal V, Case VII in the matter of the United States of America against Milhelm list et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 20 August 1947, 0930, Justice Edward F. Carter presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the judges of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if all the defendants are present in the Courtroom?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor all the defendants are present in the Courtroom with the exception of defendant Weichs who is absent due to illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has a certificate from the physician which I am handing to the Secretary General.
Judge Edward F. Carter will preside at this day's session.
JUDGE CARTER: Is there any further cross-examination of this witness by the defense?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGLER:
Q. Dr. Bergler as deputy for Weisberger for defendant Speidel. Witness, you told us yesterday you were a soldier in the Greek Army. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. In the Greek army you had a service rank?
A. Yes.
Q. Which service rank did you have?
A. I was a Master Sergeant.
Q. Isn't that a non-commissioned officer?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. And is that a comparatively high rank of a non-commissioned officer?
A. Yes.
Q. Which is the next highest service rank after your rank, already an officer's rank?
A. Lieutenant.
Q. Did you have any relationships with officers and did you frequently talk with officers?
A. Yes.
Q. After being released as a prisoner of war, did you then talk with officers?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Another question. While serving as a soldier in the regular army, did you take part in fights against the Germans?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you were captured. I mean how did this take place?
A. No, I wasn't captured as a prisoner of war.
Q. Yes. Well then, how did you get to Kalavrita from the army?
A. I had been wounded and then I was serving in their military hospital Sokratis. It was a hospital on a boat and it was sunk in front of Selanitika near Aeghion on the Aegean Sea. The German aircraft had destroyed it.
Q. I didn't want to know that. I only wanted to know how you reached home.
A. The German troops had not yet arrived in the South of Greece. They were still in the north of Greece and so I managed to go back to Kalavrita which is in the South of Greece.
Q. That is quite enough. I only wanted you to answer the question and not to go on talking when the question is answered. Now, witness, the Greek army capitulated. Did you know that?
A. No, at no time the Greek Army did capitulate.
Q. Well, conditions of capitulation have been fixed. How did it come about that the Greek army was currently released from captivity? Something must have been agreed upon.
A. We did not recognize it because the office government with the King had left and one single officer did capitulate but that we did not recognize.
Q. Okay. Who was this officer who signed?
A. This is a man for whom I never was concerned, a certain Greek officer of whom I do not even like to remember the name.
Q. That is -- do you know his name?
A. Yes, I know his name.
Q. What is his name then?
A. His name is Tsolacogloy.
Q. And what office did he have -- this officer? Was he a General?
A. Yes, he was a General.
Q. What was his position? Was he the commanding general or was he a general in a more subordinate position?
A. Yes, he was a commander.
Q. The commander. Was he a commander of a division of a corps or was he commander of the entire Greek Army?
A. He was not the commander of the whole Greek Army. He was the commander of a corps-of an army corps.
Q. Officers were captured too, weren't they?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Were they also released from c activity?
A. That I don't know. Maybe they were released, maybe they were not.
Q. Did you later see any officers after that or not?
A. Do you mean Greek?
Q. Yes, I mean Greek officers.
A. Very few.
Q. Only very few. Did you talk to those few?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you discuss their captivity and did you discuss the experiences they made with the Germans during the war?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you read papers, witness?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you also read newspapers in the year 1941?
A. Yes.
Q. In 1941, when did the first newspapers appear after the hostilities ceased?
A. The newspapers were always printed and issued. They never ceased.
Q. Did not cease? Well, did these papers contain anything about the conditions of capitulation?
A. Yes, there were certain points, but I don't remember them because the whole Greek people was not interested, as they never recognized this capitulation of a single Greek officer whom all of them despised.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Can we have the remainder of the witness's answer please?
BY DR. BERGLER:
A Yes. Since the Greek government and the king had left and had not capitulated, we all recognized only our official government and not an officer or people whatsoever to whom we never gave our agreement.
Q That is what you are concerned with. I only asked whether you read the capitulation conditions in the paper; whether you recognize them that has nothing to do with this question.
A I repeat that I do not remember those terms and conditions because I was not interested in them and I never remember things that I am not interested in at all.
Q You don't remember anything about these terms of capitulation, not a single point of them?
A No.
Q Did you never discuss these terms with anyone?
A No.
Q How do you know then that the population did not recognize these terms.
A This is very well known. I am Greek and I know the whole mentality and the feelings of the whole Greek people. It was just one feeling.
Q Witness, can you tell us when the Greek government left Greece?
A Ten hours before the German troops entered Athens.
Q Had the army capitulated by that time?
A One single unit of the Greek army capitulated. I told you before that the Greek army as a whole never capitulated.
Q But it went into captivity as a whole, as a unit, didn't it?
A No., that is not correct. Only part of the Greek army, one part went and joined the Allies in the Middle East. Another part went up to the mountains to continue fighting and another part managed to escape and to come back to their homes without being captured as prisoners of war.
Q Where did those people go? A part you just said -did they all leave Greece?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I didn't get the first part of the question, if your Honor please.
BY DR. BERGLER:
Q You told us previously, witness, of the Greek soldiers. A part went to join the Middle East command. Where did they go now? Did they remain in Greece?
A The whole navy and the air forces left for the Middle East. The mercantile navy left to go with the army.
Q They did no longer remain in Greece?
A Both the fighting navy and the mercantile navy had left Greece. One part, when they were withdrawing, proceeded to Creta and after Crete had been conquered by the Germans they left Crete for the Middle East.
Q But a part went into captivity. That is to say, a large part, and now I am asking you, witness, did you never hear anything about the Greek officers who were released from captivity giving their word of honor?
A I want to tell you that in Albania we had 500,000 Greeks fighting. The army consisted there of 500,000, only 50,000 of them capitulated. Do you mean by the whole Greek army -- do you mean by those 50,000 who capitulated?
Q I have asked you, witness, whether you had heard anything about officers giving their word of honor at being released from captivity?
You can answer me yes or no. You heard this question. I don't want to hear any other questions. I didn't ask you about the strength of your fighting forces.
A No, I don't know that.
Q Did the papers print anything about these or not.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If your Honor please, I submit we are getting quite far afield from the direct examination which as I remember it only took up the operation Kalavrita.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Overruled. He may answer the question.
BY DR. BERGLER:
A No, I don't remember such a thing and I repeat again that the Greek people never recognized those officers. The only officers and army they recognized were those who were faithful to the Greek government.
Q I didn't ask you concerning this. I only asked you whether you knew something about it. Something must have been known to you about it because you did not recognize these officers that there were officers who were released from captivity, and who gave their word of honor when they were released. You just told me you did not recognize these officers, but something must have been known to you that officers were released from captivity and gave their pledged word on this occasion.
A I would like to repeat that I was never concerned with those things. The only thing I know, since a single unit only had capitulated, we never recognized this single unit and we never did know what they did, whether they gave their word of honor or not. I want to repeat that I was never concerned with anybody having dealt with capitulation.
Q. You were a liaison man, you said, witness?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Between whom did you act as a liaison man?
A. Between the British commander and the Greek Army.
Q. From what date onwards were you a liaison man?
A. Approximately, from October 1942.
Q. Did you also act as a liaison with the partisans?
A. I don't know any partisans; I only know the Greek Army.
Q. Were you also acting as a liaison with those people whom you call the Greek Army?
A. I do not call them "Greek Army". They really are the Greek Army; they were the Greek Army; and they still are the Greek Army.
Q. Well, did you also act as a liaison man for this Greek Army?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes. What was your task as a liaison man?
A. We liberated our country from the conqueror.
Q. I would like to know in detail what you did as a liaison man. This is a bit too general for me. Did you collect news about the German Army?
INTERPRETER: Excuse me, I did not get the last word: "Did you collect information about the German Army....?"
Q. Did you collect news regarding the German Army? That is, the German troops who were in Greece?
A. Yes; and we transmitted -- I transmitted that information to the Greek Government and the government in command of the Middle East.
Q. That is to say, you were a spy?
A. No, I was no spy. I was a Greek soldier.
Q. Did you wear a uniform on those occasion?
A. Yes, accordingly.
Q. When did you wear a uniform?
A. When I was with the Greek Army and the British commander, I were a uniform, and when I was in the town I did not wear it.
Q. And when you were in town you collected news, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. -- And then you did not wear uniform?
A. No.
Q. From whom did you obtain this news? Did you collect it all yourself? Did you go yourself?
A. From various persons I just got the information wherever I could get it.
Q. Did they also come from Kalavrita?
A. We all had the task and the desire to increase our liberation army in order to liberate the country from the invader.
Q. I ask you whether the people from whom you obtained this news care from Kalavrita. That is what I asked you.
A. Certainly not, because Kalavrita is a very small place and we couldn't get any information at such a very limited, small place.
Q. Yes. I didn't want to know whether they all came from Kalavrita but weren't some people from Kalavrita among those people who got news for you, and told it to you?
A. No. I repeat that it was impossible to get information at such a small and very limited place.
Q. Apart from you, none was ordered to act news from people from Kalavrita, and to ask them to tell you something if they got to know of something? Did you not ask a single person in Kalavrita to tell you something as soon as he heard smoothing about news regarding Kalavrita?
A. No.
Q. Well, now when you put on your uniform did you leave the town of Kalavrita in uniform?
A. No; because I put on the uniform when I was with the Greek Army when I arrived at the British commandos place, at the battlefield.
Q. Where did you keep that uniform?
A. It was there where the Greek Army was, actually.
Q. At home you didn't have a uniform?
A. No.
Q. Well, you joined the Greek Army. Of what did this Greek Army consist?
A. That army consisted of Greek officers, Greek soldiers; and British officers and British soldiers.
Q. Did all these people wear uniforms?
A. All of them were wearing uniforms.
Q. There were two groups, weren't there, in Greece? Do you know anything regarding a group lead by General Cervas, and that there was a Communist group?
A. I know of no Communist group. I know only of Greek resistance groups. How they called themselves is of no importance because the German army, too, had several groups, with several names: Divisions and corps, and so forth.
Q. Witness, you claim that you don't know that in the Greek resistance movement there were groups who were at loggerheads with each other?
A. No; one thing that I can tell you is that they always agreed with reward to the common struggle against the enemy. If they had some personal differences between themselves--that is another matter.
Q. Yes, witness; well, that is another matter.
Well, witness, I am now putting to you that we have examined a witness here who belonged to the organization of General Cervas, and this witness was at all times in the immediate neighborhood of General Cervas and his troops, and he told us the following about the uniforms worn by the troops of General Cervas: Only a few officers were supposed to have worn uniforms.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honor please, I object to the statement of defense counsel. I don't believe that is a proper or correct summary of the evidence given by a preceding witness in this case.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER:
Objection sustained.
Q Witness, from whore did those people get their uniforms?
A From the Headquarters of the Middle East, from the Creek and British Government.
Q What was the strength of this Greek Army which still remained in Greece?
A In our sector -- I mean the whole province of Kalavrita between Tripolis and Aegion, there were three battalions, about 2,000 men.
Q What is the strength of three battalions?
A Between 1,800 and 2,000.
At what time did they have that strength?
A The strength was reached little by little, and at the time of the destruction of Kalavrita, we had approximately that strength, 2,000 --3,000 men.
Q Witness, where did the others come from then, the people who currently joined the Army?
A They came from the various districts of Greece. They got their equipment from the British Headquarters of the Middle East.
Q And how was this equipment transported to Greece?
A With airplanes.
Q Was it possible to drop so much equipment that these people could currently be equipped with uniforms?
A I told you before, little by little, gradually, not at once.
Q Witness, tell me now is the organization Edes known to you?
A Yes.
Q What kind of an organization was Edes?
A Edes was part of the Greek Army.
Q By whom was it led?
A Cervas.
Q Cervas? yes. Is the organization Elas also known to you?
A Elas, too, is a part of the Greek Army.
Q By whom was this organization led?
A There were several officers.
Q Is an organization called EAM known to you?
A Yes.
Q By whom was this organization led?
A This was not a military organization. It was a political organization and I was never concerned with political organization. I was in the Greek Army and I was fighting in the Greek Army and I had nothing to do with political organizations.
Q Is it now known to you that EAM also formed formations and that they fought?
A I was not concerned and I do not know anything about this. I was a Greek soldier fighting and my whole feelings and interest were concentrated on that.
Q Who was the overall commander of this Greek Army of Edes and Elas together?
A This was General Wilson of the Headquarters in the Middle East.
Q To which of the two organizations did you yourself belong? to Edes or to Elas?
A I did not belong to any organization. As I told you before, I was a Greek soldier fighting for the liberation of Greece, and obeying the British commanders who were under the High Command in the Middle East.
Q You just said the Supreme Commander and the two groups, Elas and Edes were subordinate to this group. As a Greek soldier you must have belonged to one of these organization. You were not a British soldier, were you? You said you were a Greek soldier and belonged to the Greek Army and the Supreme Commander was General Wilson.
To which of the Greek organizations did you belong?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honors please, I object to the question. I believe the witness has already stated that he belonged to neither of the organizations named by the defense counsel.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: The witness so testified. Objection sustained.
Q Witness, -- Since what date did this Command Middle East take an interest in these Greek soldiers?
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: Counsel, tills man wasn't asked anything about that on direct examination. So far as his personal connection with those organizations is concerned, you are perfectly within bounds in asking him about that, but I think your questions are improper as they are and that this question has been pursued far enough.
Q Witness, since when did you have anything to do with Greek officers -- what I wanted to say was, with British officers?
A The Greek Army -- where I was fighting -- was organized when the British Officers came together with Greek officers from the Headquarters Middle East.
Q When did you take part for the first time?
A I told the High Tribunal already that it was in October, 1942.
Q Well, as another question, Witness, let us come back to your release from the military hospital. At which military hospital were you? You also mentioned a hospital ship.
A I was on the hospital ship which had been bombed by the German airplanes, although it was full of wounded soldiers. I was on that hospital ship on the 16th of April -
Q I didn't ask you -
A Yes, on the 16th of April, 1941.
Q And where was this ship anchored?
A I just told you about where it was. I came from the front and it was at Selanitika near Ageion, - near the Ageian coast in the Corinthian Bay.
Q That is what you are saying now. Didn't you tell us before that Ageion was in the Ageian Sea.
INTERPRETER ANAGNOSTOPOULOS: I want to make a personal remark.
This was translated by me, "Ageian Sea, Salanitika near the Ageion. The whole is the Ageion Sea, I think.
BY DR. BERGLER:
A Witness, now another question. Were there several liasonmen between the population as you said, and the British command, and the Greek army?
A What do you mean?
Q In Kalavrita and other regions. Is it known to you that apart from you, there are other such liaison men?
A Yes, there were several.
Q Did they have the same tasks as you?
A Yes, the same tasks.
Q Did the others wear uniforms?
A The whole army being on the march, did wear uniforms.
Q When these men were not in the mountains, when they were collecting their information did they then wear uniforms?
A I was in one part of Greece. It was impossible for me to know what they did in other parts of Greece.
Q You need only answer my questions regarding the regions in which you were, - in the part in which you were. Were there other liaison men or were you the only one?
A I was the only one.
Q The only man in the whole neighborhood? Don't you know any other liaison men apart from yourself?
A In this territory I was the only one.
DR. BERGLER: I have no further questions.
DR. LATERNSER: Your honors, I only want to clarify two points, which I forgot to clarify yesterday. I shall be through in five minutes.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, did you also fight against the Germans in the front, during the war between Greece and Germany?
A No.
Q Later, as you said, you were fighting in the Greek Army for the liberation?
A Yes.
Q When and where?
A Do you mean after the occupation by the Germans?
A Yes.
A No, then I did not participate in a battle.
Q You said that you had worn a uniform on various occasions, and that you were with the British Commander, or with the Regular Army?
A Yes, I was wearing the uniform, ad I would even have participated in the battle, out it did not occur just at the times when I was there. If it had, I would have taken part.
Q Well now, where did you talk with the British Commanders, and how long were you always absent from Kalabrita for this purpose?
A This was at Demestricha, about 40 kilometers from Kalavrita.
Q For how long did you always stay at Demestricha, or whatever the name of the place is?
A One, two or three days.
Q Now something else. You said yesterday that 10 minutes after the shooting had been carried out, the German troops had left Kalavrita. Is that correct?
A I meant by that, and I made it clear that after they had exterminated everybody they left. Not 10 minutes after the shooting with the machine guns had taken place.
Q That is to say--how am I to understand it? 10 minutes after the executions were concluded, the troops left Kalavrita?
A The event took place in the following way, as I told you yesterday, to the Tribunal-
Q I only want to put one question, whether it is correct as you said that the German troops left the community 10 minutes after the execution. Yes or No? Did all people leave Kalavrita then, -I am sorry, I mean all of the German troops. Did they all leave Kalavrita?
A Yes, all of them.
Q 10 minutes after the executions were concluded, all German troops left Kalavrita?
A Yes, after thy had given the finishing shots to everybody. I mean that was 4 hours after the machine gun shooting had finished. After that time they left.
Q Did more of the soldiers take part in the execution?
A Do you mean the shooting of the machine guns, or the finishing extermination which took place after the shooting by machine guns?
Q I mean the shooting of the inhabitants.
A I told the High Tribunal approximately 10 machine guns were shooting, so naturally not the whole of the German soldiers could participate. As many as were necessary for that shooting. I cannot tell the number.
Q When did the 1st of the soldiers leave Kalavrita on that day?
AApproximately five o'clock the last German soldiers left, after having put a fire under the school building.
Q At that date, prior to that time the shootings were carried out?
A Do you mean the shooting by the machine guns?
Q. No, I mean the actual shooting.
AAbout 4 hours.
Q How long did the troops need in order to herd away the 35,000 cattle?
A I don't know how long it took for the German troops, they usually were looting and had quite a system in that. I do not know because we are not accustomed to that.
Q. I want to ask you when did they start driving the cattle out of Kalavrita?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honors please, I believe all this had been gone into in great detail yesterday.
DR. LATERNSER: I did not put this question.
Q. I ask you, when did the troops start to drive away these 35,000 head of cattle?
A. They started -- they brought them in about 12 o'clock and started at 2 o'clock to drive them away until the next day, on the 13th. When the execution took place, they had taken almost all of them because the German troops, when they left Kalavrita after the execution had taken place, went with them.
Q. Now, how did the troops get all these 35,000 head of cattle together?
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Dr. Laternser, they went through all that yesterday - somebody did - on cross examination. It seems to me like repetition.
DR. LATERNSER: I only wanted to try and clear up this incredible story because it is completely impossible that 35,000 head of cattle could be brought together in this neighborhood. I only want to show that the witness told untruths in this matter. It is impossible to get 35,000 head of cattle in this neighborhood. For this reason I am putting this question.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I followed counsel on the other cross examination on the same story and repeating again and again isn't going to help us much.
DR. LATERNSER: I only wanted to establish how the cattle was herded, Your Honors.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: All right. Do it briefly.
Q. Witness, quite briefly, how did the German troops herd these 35,000 head of cattle together?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honors please, I don't believe the witness ever testified that there were 35,000 head of cattle.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think that's correct and I think that question was answered yesterday. It's repetition, Sustain the objection.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Continue with the cross examination by the defense. Any further redirect examination?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Witness, yesterday you were asked whether you knew that German soldiers were killed before the destruction and executions which took place at Kalavrita.
A. The German prisoners were killed after the destruction and the executions at Kalavrita had taken place and retaliation measures for the whole massacre.
Q. What information have you in that respect, witness, that leads you to that belief?
A. I was told of this fact by the head of the British command, Anthony, as well as by the Greek major, Sfagjanos, and by the inhabitants of surrounding villages.
Q. Witness, during the period 6 to 13 or 14 December 1943, were any announcements made to you by the German troops in your village to the effect that Kalavrita would be burned or was being burned in retaliation for the execution of German prisoners?
A, No, most certainly not, because if they would have told us such a thing we would have fled and would have reached the ocean.
Q. Were there any units of Greek forces fighting the German troops in the neighborhood of Kalavrita during the month preceding the events of the 8th to the 13th of December 1943, to your knowledge?
A. There was a small section.
Q. How far-
A. At the time when the massacre took place, there was a small section of three soldiers who watched the massacre from the fortress.