DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: Dr. Mueller-Torgow for the Defendant Felmy. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q Witness, you're a businessman by profession?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q What kind of business do you have?
A I have a grocery, and hides, and a factory for candles and wax lights.
Q May I please have this answer repeated?
(English-German Court Interpreter repeats answer.)
Have you travelled much in your business?
A Yes, within Greece I should say, and as far as Smyrna and Asia Minor.
Q Do you knew the Peleponnesus well?
A Yes, I do.
Q Witness, do you speak English?
A No, I don't speak English.
Q Witness, you said that the District of Kalavrita has 62,000 inhabitants.
A The whole province of Kalavrita, with the town of Kalavrita. That is correct.
Q And the district outside the town of Kalavrita consists of 55 villages and other small villages. Is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And the two largest towns each had 350 inhabitants. Is that correct?
A The smallest villages, because the largest had about 3,000 inhabitants. I said the smallest, and the largest 3,000 -- Daphni and Kiporia. I mentioned the two largest villages.
Q Witness, how many houses did the town of Kalavrita have in November, 1943 -- approximately?
AApproximately 600 to 680 houses -- approximately.
Q From 500 to 580?
A No, from 600 to 680. Besides the shops and besides the public stadia, the Tribunal and schoolhouses, etc.
Q And in these 600 to 680 houses there lived about 4200 people. Is that right?
A That's correct -- from 3800 to 4000 -- that's correct.
Q And after the destruction of Kalavrita you said about 2800 inhabitants were left.
A That's not correct. I said that now we had a population of about 2800. After the destruction of Kalavritz about 650 to 800 had remained in the 22 houses that had not been completely burned down but were still there as ruins. And this population from about 650 to 800 stayed there only a few days after the destruction; then the Government took care to sent them to Patras, Aegion, to Athens, and the Pyraeus in order to be settled in other villages and smaller villages of the province of Kalavrita where they were placed.
Q Witness, where are the 2800 inhabitants living who are there now?
AAfter the liberation, the Greek Government, with the help of the Allies, built 200 new houses at Kalavrita. And we repaired many of the houses that had not been completely burned down and that could be repaired.
Q Witness, I'd like to go back to a prior point. You said that there were 30,000 pieces of cattle.
A Yes, and I estimate that there were even more. I mean goats, sheep, horses, oxen, and I'm insisting on that.
Q Could you tell me, approximately, of what those 30,000 pieces of cattle were composed?
AAbout 15,000 sheep and about 5,000 horses and oxen together.
Q And how was this cattle transported away?
A They drove them away through the highways to Patras and Aegion and Corinthos. And they loaded besides, two wagons with chickens and ducks and geese that they had already slaughtered.
Q Witness, but you said before that most of the cattle was taken away by trucks and a small part by railway. What was transported by trucks and what was transported by railway?
A I told you that by trucks they transported items that they had looted from the stores. That is to say, the jewelry, clothing, shoes, cereals, fruits, apples -- and by railway they transported that is by two wagons which they loaded chickens, ducks, and geese.
Q But you said something else, Witness. You did not speak of 5 but 150 trucks which were filled with plundered things, but that was previously. You said then once more that the greater part of the cattle was likewise transported by trucks.
A I told you that on the 150 trucks the merchandise was loaded -and not the cattle. The cattle had been driven away mostly by the highways leading to Patras, Aegion, and Corinthos, and also by paths leading from Kalavrita to Aegion.
Witness, you said unequivocally that 150 trucks transported cattle away; besides you s aid that the largest part of the cattle was transported on trucks. Another question: Were the railroads running at that time?
A Yes, the railway was running. There had been a certain damage which had been repaired. And I can even tell you that they put on the engine a man who was not able to conduct the train because the regular railway officials had gone to the mountains in order to avoid doing service for the Germans. Two Germans had assumed the job to conduct the engine with one Greek who was not able and did not know anything about this job.
Q. How were the railroads run then?
A. This is the cog wheel railway which runs from Diakophta for eleven kilometers with one car and then with two cars.
Q. Witness, you said that for seven days or longer the bodies were buried by the survivors and that you had to dig the graves with your fingers.
A. That's correct.
Q. You said this morning, and I must come back to it once again, "We dug the graves." and you said then upon a protest by Dr. Laternser that it is customary in the Greek language to say "we". Will you please explain why it is customary in modern Greek to say "we" if you yourself did not participate?
A. That's very simply explained. That is just a Greek idiom. When we say "we", we understand that that means persons very close to us and as we were connected through this terrible tragedy we were just like one person.
Q. What did you do during that time?
A. After I had recovered from my wounds - it was about 25 days later - I began to take care of the few inhabitants that had remained. For instance, I went to Patras to ask the German commander to release the flour that the Red Cross had sent to us and that had been withheld from us by the Germans. And I even went there with the representative of the Swedish Red Cross, but the German commander still refused to release the foodstuff that had been sent by the Red Cross, saying--
Q. Witness, you said that approximately two months later, at the end of February 1944, when the Germans came for the second time, you all had fled into the snowed-in mountains, 2500 meters high. Which mountains do you mean, witness?
A. The mountains of Chelmos.
Q. How are they situated in relation to Kalavrita?
A. About two hours from Kalavrita.
Q. In what direction?
A. Southeast of Kalavrita.
Q. Witness, in spite of my eager scrutinizing, I don't find any trace of this in the map submitted by the prosecution, nor do I find that on any other map, nor can I find any mountains 2500 meters high two hours from Kalavrita in that direction.
A. The highest peak of this mountain is about 2500 meters. We naturally went to hide there in the woods of the mountains. I didn't say that we climbed up to the peak of the mountain.
Q. But you said that near Kalavrita there are mountains 2500 meters high.
A. The mountain range of Kalavrita really begins very close to Kalavrita, about 20 minutes after Kalavrita, and the mountains naturally rise gradually. So I can really say that it is near Kalavrita, as this mountain range begins very close to Kalavrita.
Q. Are there any mountains 2500 meters high in the Kalavrita area? Is that correct?
A. About two hours distant.
Q. Then the map is all wrong, witness.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I object to defense counsel's last remark, if Your Honors please.
THE PRESIDENT: I see no basis for that remark. There's no showing as to whether the maps, as presented, cover all the territory of which the witness has testified. And on the Court's own motion the statement of counsel will be stricken.
JUDGE BURKE: I'm wondering as a matter of natural history, Dr. Mueller-Torgow, if you have any serious doubts of the existence of such a mountain, regardless of the map.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: No, I don't have those doubts, but the witness said that "we fled to the snow-covered mountains, 2500 meters high".
JUDGE BURKE: But the question now seems to revolve around the fact of natural history, of whether there is such a mountain or not. It ought not to be ultimately such a mystery. Either there is or there isn't; it can be proven.
BY DR. MULLER-TORGOW:
Q. Witness, you said that you were informed to come back to Kalavrita.
A. Yes.
Q. Who informed you of that?
A. The German colonel from Patras let me know that I should return to Kalavrita.
Q. Witness, in June 1944 the German soldiers came for the third time to Kalavrita and again took along 30,000 pieces of cattle. How did that happen at this time?
A. I never told the Tribunal such a thing. First of all, nothing happened there because in Kalavrita there were only ruins and blackdressed widows.
Q. May I ask you to repeat that please?
(Answer repeated by the English-German interpreter)
Witness, you said then that two monasteries were burned and near one of them some monks had been thrown into a gorge from there.
A. That's correct. They had been pushed down from a rock into the depths -- down the precipice.
Q. Did you see that yourself?
A. No, but this had been told me by the Bishop of Afxentios, as well as by the Metropolite of Kalavrita.
Q. Witness, let us return to the school for a moment -- I mean in front of the school. No doubt it was this way: Women and children were locked up there while the men gathered in front of the church. Is that correct?
A Yes, we first had boon told to gather, everybody, men, women and children as well, in front of the cathedral but then the plans were changed and we had to gather in the school while the men were kept in the courtyard of the school and the women locked up in the school building.
Q How many floors did the school have?
A Two.
Q Two? Do you mean by that the first floor and the second floor or do you mean first, second, and third floor?
A I mean the ground floor and one floor above which was being used.
Q And how was the school built?
A With stone. It had been, it was built with stone.
Q And this school was lit up by gasoline? How was that done?
A They naturally poured the gasoline over the wooden doors and over other wooden items, and over the floor too - the floor and the ceiling were also of wood.
Q And how many women and children were in there? How many women and children were able to escape?
A Everybody was saved with the exception of an old woman who had been trampled upon and the others had wounds but nobody died except this woman.
Q Witness, you said before this action in Kalavrita, 78 German soldiers had been taken prisoner and were taken care of and were treated well in Kalavrita.
A Yes, and I can tell you that they hod been placed in the same school building and that we had given them meat and everything, fed them very carefully and took care of them in the same school building that afterwards was burned.
Q Do you know witness, what became of those 78 prisoners?
A Yes, they were then transferred from Kalavrita to a village by the name of Planiterou, approximately 30 kilometers from Kalavrita.
Q In what direction?
A Southeast, rather to the east.
Q Witness, do you know anything about the village Marsi?
A Yes, I know of that.
Q That is also situated southeast of Kalavrita.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Can we have the witness' answer to the last question, please?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I know Marsi.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q Do you know, witness, that in Marsi before the so-called action in Kalavrita, that in Marsi they found the same number of mutilated German soldiers as you saw as prisoners in Kalavrita?
A I know that about five days after the destruction of Kalavrita and after a battle between the Germans and the Greek Liberation Fighters, these German soldiers were killed as a retaliation for the massacre of Kalavrita.
Q In your opinion then, these soldiers were killed after this action in Kalavrita. Is that right?
A That is not my opinion, but the Major of the British Commandos Anthony and the Greek Major Sphagianos know that.
Q Witness, what is your opinion? In your opinion, are these 78 murdered German soldiers connected in any way with the 78 prisoners which you saw? I would like to point out to you in this connection that these bodies were already found on the 7th of December.
A I know from official sources that the bodies of these German soldiers have been found about the 17th of December. Why should they have been killed just during the destruction of Kalavrita since the Greeks hold them captured since three months and had treated and fed them well? There was no reason at all to kill them since they had kept them for three months and a half.
Q Witness, did you ever think about why the men of whom you told us, were killed in Kalavrita?
A Yes, I know perfectly what was the idea -- because the Germans who wanted to break the Greek resistance had just chosen the sacred place of the Greek country where the liberation had been announced and started about 130 years ago and so as a symbol they wanted to destroy the very sacred place of the liberation of Greece.
Q Witness, I return once more to the date. The prosecution has submitted this in document book 20 in document No. 1246, Exhibit 473, this is the War Diary No. 3, 68th Army Corps, up to the 31st of December 1943. There it says on cage 64 in the German text - from the 1st July to the 31st December. There it says under 8th of December, 1943, "Peloponnesus according to a testimony of two refugees from the 5th Battalion, 749th Infantry Regiment which was destroyed on the 19th of October at Kalavrita, the company commander Schober who had been taken prisoner and 78 men are alleged to have been shot on the 7th of December in the mountains cast of Kalavrita." Witness, do you maintain your statement that the German prisoners were not killed until after the action at Kalavrita?
A Yes. That is the truth. I insist upon it and I can prove it.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: I have no further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court will stand in recess until tomorrow morning at nine-thirty.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 20 august 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of Military Tribunal V, Case VII in the matter of the United States of America against Milhelm list et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 20 August 1947, 0930, Justice Edward F. Carter presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the judges of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if all the defendants are present in the Courtroom?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor all the defendants are present in the Courtroom with the exception of defendant Weichs who is absent due to illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has a certificate from the physician which I am handing to the Secretary General.
Judge Edward F. Carter will preside at this day's session.
JUDGE CARTER: Is there any further cross-examination of this witness by the defense?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGLER:
Q. Dr. Bergler as deputy for Weisberger for defendant Speidel. Witness, you told us yesterday you were a soldier in the Greek Army. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. In the Greek army you had a service rank?
A. Yes.
Q. Which service rank did you have?
A. I was a Master Sergeant.
Q. Isn't that a non-commissioned officer?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. And is that a comparatively high rank of a non-commissioned officer?
A. Yes.
Q. Which is the next highest service rank after your rank, already an officer's rank?
A. Lieutenant.
Q. Did you have any relationships with officers and did you frequently talk with officers?
A. Yes.
Q. After being released as a prisoner of war, did you then talk with officers?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Another question. While serving as a soldier in the regular army, did you take part in fights against the Germans?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you were captured. I mean how did this take place?
A. No, I wasn't captured as a prisoner of war.
Q. Yes. Well then, how did you get to Kalavrita from the army?
A. I had been wounded and then I was serving in their military hospital Sokratis. It was a hospital on a boat and it was sunk in front of Selanitika near Aeghion on the Aegean Sea. The German aircraft had destroyed it.
Q. I didn't want to know that. I only wanted to know how you reached home.
A. The German troops had not yet arrived in the South of Greece. They were still in the north of Greece and so I managed to go back to Kalavrita which is in the South of Greece.
Q. That is quite enough. I only wanted you to answer the question and not to go on talking when the question is answered. Now, witness, the Greek army capitulated. Did you know that?
A. No, at no time the Greek Army did capitulate.
Q. Well, conditions of capitulation have been fixed. How did it come about that the Greek army was currently released from captivity? Something must have been agreed upon.
A. We did not recognize it because the office government with the King had left and one single officer did capitulate but that we did not recognize.
Q. Okay. Who was this officer who signed?
A. This is a man for whom I never was concerned, a certain Greek officer of whom I do not even like to remember the name.
Q. That is -- do you know his name?
A. Yes, I know his name.
Q. What is his name then?
A. His name is Tsolacogloy.
Q. And what office did he have -- this officer? Was he a General?
A. Yes, he was a General.
Q. What was his position? Was he the commanding general or was he a general in a more subordinate position?
A. Yes, he was a commander.
Q. The commander. Was he a commander of a division of a corps or was he commander of the entire Greek Army?
A. He was not the commander of the whole Greek Army. He was the commander of a corps-of an army corps.
Q. Officers were captured too, weren't they?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Were they also released from c activity?
A. That I don't know. Maybe they were released, maybe they were not.
Q. Did you later see any officers after that or not?
A. Do you mean Greek?
Q. Yes, I mean Greek officers.
A. Very few.
Q. Only very few. Did you talk to those few?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you discuss their captivity and did you discuss the experiences they made with the Germans during the war?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you read papers, witness?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you also read newspapers in the year 1941?
A. Yes.
Q. In 1941, when did the first newspapers appear after the hostilities ceased?
A. The newspapers were always printed and issued. They never ceased.
Q. Did not cease? Well, did these papers contain anything about the conditions of capitulation?
A. Yes, there were certain points, but I don't remember them because the whole Greek people was not interested, as they never recognized this capitulation of a single Greek officer whom all of them despised.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Can we have the remainder of the witness's answer please?
BY DR. BERGLER:
A Yes. Since the Greek government and the king had left and had not capitulated, we all recognized only our official government and not an officer or people whatsoever to whom we never gave our agreement.
Q That is what you are concerned with. I only asked whether you read the capitulation conditions in the paper; whether you recognize them that has nothing to do with this question.
A I repeat that I do not remember those terms and conditions because I was not interested in them and I never remember things that I am not interested in at all.
Q You don't remember anything about these terms of capitulation, not a single point of them?
A No.
Q Did you never discuss these terms with anyone?
A No.
Q How do you know then that the population did not recognize these terms.
A This is very well known. I am Greek and I know the whole mentality and the feelings of the whole Greek people. It was just one feeling.
Q Witness, can you tell us when the Greek government left Greece?
A Ten hours before the German troops entered Athens.
Q Had the army capitulated by that time?
A One single unit of the Greek army capitulated. I told you before that the Greek army as a whole never capitulated.
Q But it went into captivity as a whole, as a unit, didn't it?
A No., that is not correct. Only part of the Greek army, one part went and joined the Allies in the Middle East. Another part went up to the mountains to continue fighting and another part managed to escape and to come back to their homes without being captured as prisoners of war.
Q Where did those people go? A part you just said -did they all leave Greece?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I didn't get the first part of the question, if your Honor please.
BY DR. BERGLER:
Q You told us previously, witness, of the Greek soldiers. A part went to join the Middle East command. Where did they go now? Did they remain in Greece?
A The whole navy and the air forces left for the Middle East. The mercantile navy left to go with the army.
Q They did no longer remain in Greece?
A Both the fighting navy and the mercantile navy had left Greece. One part, when they were withdrawing, proceeded to Creta and after Crete had been conquered by the Germans they left Crete for the Middle East.
Q But a part went into captivity. That is to say, a large part, and now I am asking you, witness, did you never hear anything about the Greek officers who were released from captivity giving their word of honor?
A I want to tell you that in Albania we had 500,000 Greeks fighting. The army consisted there of 500,000, only 50,000 of them capitulated. Do you mean by the whole Greek army -- do you mean by those 50,000 who capitulated?
Q I have asked you, witness, whether you had heard anything about officers giving their word of honor at being released from captivity?
You can answer me yes or no. You heard this question. I don't want to hear any other questions. I didn't ask you about the strength of your fighting forces.
A No, I don't know that.
Q Did the papers print anything about these or not.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If your Honor please, I submit we are getting quite far afield from the direct examination which as I remember it only took up the operation Kalavrita.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Overruled. He may answer the question.
BY DR. BERGLER:
A No, I don't remember such a thing and I repeat again that the Greek people never recognized those officers. The only officers and army they recognized were those who were faithful to the Greek government.
Q I didn't ask you concerning this. I only asked you whether you knew something about it. Something must have been known to you about it because you did not recognize these officers that there were officers who were released from captivity, and who gave their word of honor when they were released. You just told me you did not recognize these officers, but something must have been known to you that officers were released from captivity and gave their pledged word on this occasion.
A I would like to repeat that I was never concerned with those things. The only thing I know, since a single unit only had capitulated, we never recognized this single unit and we never did know what they did, whether they gave their word of honor or not. I want to repeat that I was never concerned with anybody having dealt with capitulation.
Q. You were a liaison man, you said, witness?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Between whom did you act as a liaison man?
A. Between the British commander and the Greek Army.
Q. From what date onwards were you a liaison man?
A. Approximately, from October 1942.
Q. Did you also act as a liaison with the partisans?
A. I don't know any partisans; I only know the Greek Army.
Q. Were you also acting as a liaison with those people whom you call the Greek Army?
A. I do not call them "Greek Army". They really are the Greek Army; they were the Greek Army; and they still are the Greek Army.
Q. Well, did you also act as a liaison man for this Greek Army?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes. What was your task as a liaison man?
A. We liberated our country from the conqueror.
Q. I would like to know in detail what you did as a liaison man. This is a bit too general for me. Did you collect news about the German Army?
INTERPRETER: Excuse me, I did not get the last word: "Did you collect information about the German Army....?"
Q. Did you collect news regarding the German Army? That is, the German troops who were in Greece?
A. Yes; and we transmitted -- I transmitted that information to the Greek Government and the government in command of the Middle East.
Q. That is to say, you were a spy?
A. No, I was no spy. I was a Greek soldier.
Q. Did you wear a uniform on those occasion?
A. Yes, accordingly.
Q. When did you wear a uniform?
A. When I was with the Greek Army and the British commander, I were a uniform, and when I was in the town I did not wear it.
Q. And when you were in town you collected news, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. -- And then you did not wear uniform?
A. No.
Q. From whom did you obtain this news? Did you collect it all yourself? Did you go yourself?
A. From various persons I just got the information wherever I could get it.
Q. Did they also come from Kalavrita?
A. We all had the task and the desire to increase our liberation army in order to liberate the country from the invader.
Q. I ask you whether the people from whom you obtained this news care from Kalavrita. That is what I asked you.
A. Certainly not, because Kalavrita is a very small place and we couldn't get any information at such a very limited, small place.
Q. Yes. I didn't want to know whether they all came from Kalavrita but weren't some people from Kalavrita among those people who got news for you, and told it to you?
A. No. I repeat that it was impossible to get information at such a small and very limited place.
Q. Apart from you, none was ordered to act news from people from Kalavrita, and to ask them to tell you something if they got to know of something? Did you not ask a single person in Kalavrita to tell you something as soon as he heard smoothing about news regarding Kalavrita?
A. No.
Q. Well, now when you put on your uniform did you leave the town of Kalavrita in uniform?
A. No; because I put on the uniform when I was with the Greek Army when I arrived at the British commandos place, at the battlefield.
Q. Where did you keep that uniform?