Q Witness, during the experiments were your temperature taken?
A Yes.
Q Who took your temperatures?
A There were two Frenchmen, one tall thin and one short blond one; and they took the temperatures and the doctor from the Luftwaffe took the temperatures, too.
Q When you say "the doctor from the Luftwaffe" you mean man you refer to as the professor. The professor and the doctor from the Luftwaffe are the same or arc they two different people?
A Yes.
Q I see. Thank you. Now, who performed the liver punctures?
A The doctor from the Luftwaffe carried out the liver punctures himself. Some people were given liver punctures and at the same time a lumbar puncture. The doctor from the Luftwaffe did that himself. It was very painful. Something ran out -- water or something -- I don't know what it was.
Q Well, did you receive a liver puncture?
A Yes.
Q Did the professor tell you what reason he gave you that liver puncture -- for what reason he gave you that liver puncture?
A The doctor from the Luftwaffe came to me and said, "Now, Hollenreiner, it's your turn." I was lying on the bed. I was very weak from this water and from not having anything to eat. He said, "Now, lie on your left side and take your clothes off your right side I held on to the bedstead on top of me and the doctor from the Luftwaffe sat down next to me and pushed a long needle into me. It was very painful. I said, "Doctor, what are you doing?" The doctor said, "I have to make a liver puncture so that the salt comes out of your liver."
Q Now, witness, can you tell us whether or not the subjects used in the experiments were gypsies of purely German nationality or were there some Polish gypsies, some Russian gypsies, Czechoslavakian gypsies, and so forth?
A Yes, there were about seven or eight Germans and the rest of them were all Poles and Czechs, Czech gypsies and Polish gypsies.
Q Were any of the experimental subjects ever taken out of the station room to the yard outside the experimental barracks?
A Yes, at the end when the experiments were all finished; and three people were carried out with white sheets over them on a stretcher. They were covered with sheets but I don't know whether they were dead; but we, my colleagues and I, talked about it. We never saw them again neither at work nor anywhere in the camp. We often talked about it and wondered where they were. We never saw them again. I assume that the people died.
Q Do you know where they were taken to?
A No, I don't know.
Q Well, during the course of the experiments were you weighed every day?
A Yes, we were weighed, too.
Q Was that every day or every other day?
A I don't remember exactly.
Q Well, now, after the completion of the experiments in early September what happened to you?
A When we had finished the experiments?
Q Yes.
A I told you that already. We were sent to the hospital and the doctor from the Luftwaffe came and said we were to take our clothes off and we lined up and were divided into three groups. The doctor from the Luftwaffe said, "Now you will be given good food. You have never had such good food." We were given potatoes, dextrose, cookies, milk -
Q Just a minute, witness. I am referring to the end of the
Q Just a minute, witness. I am referring to the end of the experiments, after the experiments were all completed. Could you tell us what date that was that your experiments were completed and you were transferred from the experimental station?
A The experiment lasted, maybe, four or five weeks altogether. I don't know the date.
Q Well, then, they were completed in early September. Is that correct? You arrived -
A Yes.
Q Now, after the experiments were completed did you then return to the camp proper or to the camp hospital?
A No, into the camp -- about twenty-two -- we couldn't walk. We had to help each other in walking. We were exhausted and I forgot to tell you one thing. Before we began the experiments and we had this good food for about one week the doctor took us out into the courtyard near the hospital. The doctor from the Luftwaffe came. He had a little bottle and he put a number on our chest. I had number "23." It burned and then we went back into the block. On every bed there was a number, the same number that we had on our chest and one man -- but I don't remember who it was -- one of the prisoners, said: "That is what they call the death number." Then I was scared and the prisoner said, "Yes, that is the death number so that the doctor of the Luftwaffe will know right away who is dead."
We didn't want to go on with the experiments but what choice did we have? We were just poor prisoners. We had to let them do with us what they wanted. We couldn't resist. I haven't got the power to relate everything as it......
Q All right. Just a moment. Was your bed number "23"?
A Yes.
Q Then you were considered to be experimental subject No. 23?
A Yes.
Q Were you sick during the course of the experiments, witness?
A Yes.
Q Now, witness, after the completion of the experiments in early September were you then called in and weighed to determine your weight about two weeks later?
A No, not after two weeks.
Q Were you called in and weighed one week after you had completed the experiments? Do you remember?
A I don't remember. But we were weighed.
Q You were weighed every day during the experiments?
A Yes.
Q What I want to know is, were you weighed after the completion of the experiments? For instance, you were weighed every day during the experiments; then the experiments were completed; then you were not weighed again for a period of one or two weeks. Did you get weighed one or two weeks after the completion of the experiments?
A When the experiment was all finished? No.
Q Well, now after you left the experimental block and went to the camp how long before you were able to resume work?
AA few days. Then we were given a detail at a farm in Feldmochingen. We had to work hard and the food was better than in the camp but, you know, if you are a prisoner; what did the farmers give you? A little bread, some soup -- but, in any case, it was better than in the camp; and then every evening we came back to our block and then we got the regular camp food.
Q Now, witness, were you ever subjected to any other medical experiments during the time that you were incarcerated in the concentration camps?
A No.
Q Did you ever suffer from any other diseases while you were in the concentration camps?
A Yes. When the experiments were finished I got phlegmonal. I worked for the farmer for about a week and then I come back to the camp in Dachau and had phlegmonal. That was a few months I was in the hospital. It was the same block -- not the same block where we had the experiment. It was a different building. Then I had phlegmonal. I was there about a fewmonths. Then I came out there. My leg was stiff because I have a big wound there.
Q All right, witness.
AAnd then the doctors didn't help me the hospital and I had to leave the hospital again with my bent leg and I was examined by the SS doctors but they didn't care about my leg whether it was straight or bent. They weren't interested in me at all. They said I had to go to Augsburg and work for Messerschmidt.
Q All right, witness, Did you ever have malaria while you were in the concentration camp?
A No.
MR. HARDY: At this time, your Honor, the prosecution has no further questions to put to this witness. I might call attention of the Tribunal that this witness is Case No. 23, the man -- we examined his charts and graphs, and the ones where the stenographic notes appear on the back thereof have been admittedly offered by the defendand Beiglboeck.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. STEINBAUER (Counsel for defendant Beiglboeck):
Q Witness, what was your father's name?
A My father, Rudolf Hoellenreiner.
Q What was your mother's maiden name?
A Johanna Wagner.
Q What were your grandparents' names?
A My father's parents I know only my grandmother's name, Johanna Hoellenreiner. On my mother's side, Amalia Wagner.
Q When you were examined the first time you said that you had never been convicted of any crime. Do you maintain this assertion?
A No, I have been convicted.
Q When why did you lie?
A I did not lie. I meant from the experiments.
Q The question was whether before you came to the Gestapo you had ever been convicted and punished by the police. Nothing had been said about experiments at that time. That's an excuse. Do you admit that you lied? It's much better for you.
A No, I did not lie.
Q Well, you have been convicted?
A Yes.
Q For theft?
A Yes.
Q For fraud?
A Yes.
Q For assault?
A Yes.
Q For blackmail?
A What do you mean by that?
Q Well, coercion.
A No.
Q For using a false name?
A No, I never used a false name.
Q You have to speak more slowly. We will come back to that. Then you were prosecuted for desertion?
A Yes.
Q You refused to obey your draft order?
A Yes.
Q Isn't that why you were sent to the concentration camp?
A No, just because I am a gypsy. My brothers were in the war and they came back from Russia and came to Sachsenhausen and were murdered there, because there weren't supposed to be any more gypsies in the German army.
Q What kind of a triangle did you wear in the camp?
AA black one.
Q Your wife said that you were in malaria, phlegmone, typhoid and sea-water experiments?
A No, only this one experiment, no malaria.
Q Do you admit that you lied to the young doctor who talked to you?
A No, I didn't lie to the doctor. I just told him the truth. My wife and I weren't allowed to marry. My wife had a child and it was burned in Birkenau. My sister was burned and both her children.
Q Don't get excited. I asked you whether you told the young doctor that you were in four different experiments. All you have to say is yes or no.
A I told the doctor I drank salt water.
Q Lister, Mr. Mettbach, don't evade my question after there fashion of gypsies. Give me a clear answer as a witness under oath. Did you tell the doctor that you were in other experiments, yes or no?
A No. I just drank salt water.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, the testimony of this doctor is not in evidence before this Tribunal. I don't understand what Dr. Steinbauer is referring to.
DR. STEINBAUER: In cross examination the prosecutor repeatedly read from testimony without offering it in evidence. I have the right to ask him -
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel is correct. He may proceed, but it would be better if counsel would ask the witness when and where he spoke to this doctor and the name of the doctor if he knows it.
Q (By Dr. Steinbauer) In Erlangen did you talk to a doctor from the hospital named Dr. Kloger?
A No.
THE PRESIDENT: Give the witness the date, Counsel. Tell him when that conversation took place or is supposed to have taken place.
Q (By Dr. Steinbauer) A few weeks ago.
A I was under medical treatment in Erlangen, but I don't know any Dr. Kloger.
Q Didn't a doctor come to your house? Didn't he come to see you?
A Yes, I don't know whether it was a doctor.
Q Well, but you talked to a young gentleman?
A Yes.
Q He said he was a doctor?
A No, he didn't say he was a doctor.
Q Didn't you tell this young man that you had been in four experiments?
A No, I just told him I drank salt water, and I had a liver puncture and I had phlegmone. And this malaria and typhoid happened in these camps.
Q Now, I am asking you for the last time, witness. I don't want to waste the Court's time. Did you tell this young man, Dr. Kloger, that you were in four experiments?
A No.
Q Then how can you explain the fact that your wife told me that?
A I don't know. We went through a great deal in the camps. The Jews and the gypsies were all exterminated. We had no value in the camp.
Q Didn't this young man leave a note with his address?
A Yes.
Q Well then, you knew his name?
A How should I know if the man comes and writes this note and says his name is Kloger, but I don't know that he is a doctor.
Q Now you know because you have that note.
A Yes, and he told me to come see him.
Q Didn't you tell this doctor that you wanted to go see Commissioner Auerbach in Munich because of your many sufferings?
A Yes, because we were oppressed here in the concentration camp offices. The Nazis took everything away. We were sent to the camp and the Nazis took all our property.
Q Well then, it's true that you want to ask for a large sum of money?
A No, I haven't taken a penny.
Q But you want 20,000 marks?
A No.
Q How much do you really want?
A I haven't got anything yet. A man named Issner, from whom we made purchases before the war, his brother was exterminated in Auschwitz, and I haven't got a penny from the concentration camp office.
Q Witness, you don't understand me. I didn't ask you how much you got. I believe you are telling the truth that you haven't got anything. I just asked you how much you want to ask for?
A I haven't asked for anything yet.
Q How much do you intend to ask for? Didn't you say that you were going to ask for 20,000 marks?
A No.
Q Aren't you Uncle Karl?
A My name is Karl Hoellenrainer.
Q Didn't your relatives at Herzbruck call you Uncle Karl?
A No.
Q What is your religion?
A I am Catholic.
Q Are you married.
A Yes.
Q When and where were you married.
A I married in Erlangen.
Q When?
A In 1946.
Q What month?
A I don't remember what month.
Q Well, was it in the summer or winter?
A It was in the summer.
Q You said you were in Auschwitz?
A Yes.
Q Were you in the Birkenau extermination camp?
A Yes.
Q Weren't the gypsies in a big camp there?
A Yes.
Q Were there women and children there?
A Yes.
Q Did you have a wife there?
A Yes, my fiancee, Ida Schmidt. She was gassed. She was burned. I never sow her again.
Q Didn't you beat this woman till she bled?
A No.
Q Did you ever beat her?
A No.
Q In what block were you there?
A Block 18.
Q Wasn't it block 20?
A Oh, 20, yes, 20.
Q You were in block 20. Do you remember who was the senior inmate there?
A There was a big Hungarian. He distributed the food.
Q Wasn't there a fellow named Laubinger?
A Yes, but he only distributed the food.
Q Yes, yes, I understand, and who was his deputy?
A In the block you mean?
Q Yes, Laubinger's deputy.
AA litle man, an East Prussian.
Q Well, you are not so little, witness.
A Me, yes.
Q Yes, I am talking about Laubinger's deputy in this room.
A I don't know.
Q Was it you?
A No, no.
Q Witness, these are very unimportant things, of little consequence, but it is better to tell the truth.
A Yes.
Q Now, just think. Weren't you Laubinger's deputy?
A No.
Q Didn't you help him carry the food?
A No.
Q Were you in any experiments there?
A No.
Q Now, let's go to the next camp, Buchenwald.
A Yes.
Q Were you in block 46 or 20 or where were you?
A We were in a tent camp.
Q Very good, in a big tent camp.
A Yes, there were several tents.
Q Were there a hundred gypsies or two hundred, how many?
A Oh, for God's sake, how shall I remember an exact number? There were a great many from Auschwitz. Some were put on a Wehrmacht transport. My brother was there. He was sent to Ravensbruck.
Q A little slower, witness. Then I am right if I say there were some thousands of gypsies?
A Yes.
Q Now, there was a roll call one day and volunteers were asked for for a work detail.
A No.
Q Do you remember that?
A No.
Q You yourself said that there was a roll call and people were wanted for Dachau?
A No, I don't know anything about it.
DR. STEINBAUER: The German record on Laubinger and Hoellenrainer is not yet available unfortunately.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, for the benefit of defense counsel, this witness did not say that. The witness Laubinger did. I didn't ask this witness how they selected them at Buchenwald.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, I am sorry I only have the English.
Q (By Dr. Steinbauer) Here when you were a witness you testified, "I was in a tent camp in Buchenwald."
A Yes.
Q "And suddenly our numbers were called."
A Yes.
Q "Forty men were called up including me."
A Yes -- no, we were just forty.
Q It says "including me." I didn't write the record. "We were told that we had to leave for Dachau; we had to work there."
A We were in Buchenwald in the tent camp and an SS man came and called our numbers. He called up my number too, and then we lined up in a group of our own. One gypsy who had already been in Dachau said it will be better in Dachau; we are going there to work, but we never volunteered for any experiments.
Q I didn't ask you about that, witness. I asked you whether it is true what I have just read to you; that you were called up against your will?
A We weren't asked at all. Forty of us were called together and were sent to Dachau.
Q Now, I have to tell you that your countryman -- he is from Furth too -- Mettbach, said that he talked to you; that he wanted to come because Dachau was nearer Furth than Buchenwald; is that true?
A That might be. I didn't mind going to Dachau because my brothers live in Munich.
Q Then you did go voluntarily?
A No, I did not.
Q How does it happen that Laubinger said something else. Laubinger said you were deceived, that is why you volunteered?
A No, I never volunteered. I certainly wouldn't ask for my own death and volunteer for....
Q Well, you went to Dachau?
A Yes.
Q Do you know the old Herzberg?
A No.
Q You don't remember the gypsy from Pressbourg?
A No.
Q Who was the oldest gypsy?
A I don't remember.
Q You were with your comrades for weeks, and don't know their names?
A No.
Q It is possible that Mettbach did not know all the names then, isn't it?
A How should I know? I did not have time to ask everybody what his name is.
Q Did the professor, when the experiments were to begin explain the purpose that it was for rescuing people from shipwrecks, and it was a sea-water experiment?
A Yes, of course.
Q Did he explain that you would be very thirsty?
A Yes, he did first.
Q And that thirst was very unpleasant?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember a Rudi Taubmann?
A Yes.
Q You said today that you thought he was a revolutionary?
A No, I did not say that.
Q And that he resisted, and the professor had to hold him back with a pistol?
A No, no Rudi Taubmann was in the cold water experiments already, and the doctor from the Luftwaffe said, "You will have to drink sea--water, and you will be hungry, and you won't get anything to eat," Then Rudi Taubmann came up and told the doctor from the Luftwaffe he would not do it. The doctor from the Luftwaffe said, "If you refuse, if you mutiny, I will shoot you."
Q Witness, I must put to you the testimony of Laubinger. You consider Laubinger a decent, trustworthy person?
A Yes.
Q Laubinger said on page 10220 of the English record when he was asked whether Taubmann and a certain Bamberger in Dachau -- do you know them?
A Yes, I know Bamberger.
Q Whether they were volunteers, and he said, yes, they volunteered?
A No, I never volunteered.
Q No, no, no. Laubinger and Bamberger -- I mean Taubmann and Bamberger?
A I don't know.
Q You said nobody volunteered?
A No.
Q But now I am telling you that Laubinger said. He said that Taubmann and Bamberger, who were in Dachau before volunteered?
A No.
Q Then Laubinger was lying?
A I don't know.
Q You know that he sad exactly the opposite to what you said?
A On that day if Taubmann had volunteered, he would not get so excited.
Q Then Laubinger was lying?
A I don't know.
Q Witness, I have read to you what the witness Laubinger testified to on this important point. Now I will ask you, is that true or not?
A I don't know what it is about.
MR. HARDY: Defense counsel, may we read the Laubinger testimony. I apparently missed it.
DR. STEINBAUER: Can you be kind enough to read it in English, Mr. Hardy. You do better than I.
MR. HARDY: (Reads transcript silently) BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Well, then, Mr Laubinger -
A My name is not Laubinger.
Q Oh, Mr. Hoellenreiner. Was Laubinger lying on you?
A Laubinger said the same thing I did. He has to, too. He has to tell the truth about what the doctor did.
Q Yes, you both have to tell the truth, but now you are saying exactly the opposite. One of you must be lying.
A I don't tell lies. I tell the truth what the doctor said.
Q Now then Laubinger was lying?
A I don't know.
Q That is enough. You said that the young Mettbach from Furth, that he was telling the truth?
A Yes. I know him.
Q But you never saw him again, you said, is that right?
A Yes, when he left the experiments we did not see him any more.
Q That is enough. Now this Mettbach said that until the end of the experiments he was always in the Water Station I/1 during the daytime, and only went to the Department II during the night?
A I don't know.
Q You just said you never saw him again?
A Yes.
Q How bid was the room where you were?
A Where these were carried out, where the experiments were carried out?
Q How big was that room? As big as this room?
A Not quite as big.
Q Then could you see the people?
A No, I did not see him any more.
Q Witness, wasn't there another Mettbach?
A I don't know.
Q About this Mettbach, didn't you see him in the room?
A No.
Q Then Mettbach is lying?
A We were so exhausted that we could not run around any more.
Q Then you were blind?
A No, I was not blind.
Q Then you became nearsighted?
A No. We were lying'on beds. We did not have any strength to run around.
Q Witness, thirst dries out the mouth?
A Yes.
Q How can you explain that these people had froth?
A They had attacks and fits, and foamed at the mouth, they got raving madness fits.
Q I am just asking you how it can be that when the mouth is completely dry there can be froth?
A I don't know.
Q Then some became mad?
A Yes.
Q You Gypsies stick together, too, don't you?
A Yes, of course.
Q Then you can tell me who became mad?
A I don't remember.
Q You must know, if a fried of mine -- I was a soldier twice and if a friend of mine had gone mad then I would have known it.
A It was a tall man who had first rolled on the floor. He was the first one and he and fits, and when he was there he was thrashing around with his hands and feet. He was a tall slim gypsy.
Q You said that you were weighed?
A Yes.
Q Isn't it possible that after you got out of the experiment, and got good food again and plenty of water, that you were weighed again?
A No.
Q But then they had a chart showing where you were weighed every day?
A I don't know.
Q Were you weighed standing up or lying down?
A Standing up.
Q Were some of the people weighed lying down?
A I don't remember.
Q Was this scale such that people could be weighed lying down?
A I don't know.
Q Where -- what did this scale look like?
A Well, it was a scale, a big scale. You had to stand on it. There was an indicator that showed the weight.
Q The man who had his mouth fastened shut, did he have a tube for his stomach, too?
A I don't remember.
Q You had a liver puncture?
A Yes.
Q Do you have a scar?
A I don't know.
Q Don't you ever look at yourself?
A Yes. You want to see it?
Q No. I am just asking you if you have a little circle, a little round scar there?
A I did not look at it as carefully as that.
Q Well, don't you think you have it? You do or you do not?
A I don't know. I was not interested in these camp matters any more. I would go crazy. I did not want to hear anything more about the camp. We suffered long enough.
Q Witness, do you think you are crazy or mentally defective?
A No.
Q Do you think there is something wrong with you mentally?
A No.
Q You say you are going crazy?
A Well, if I keep thinking of that camp.
MR. HARDY: I object to this line of questioning, your Honor.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Well, you had a liver puncture?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether you have a scar, yes or no?
A I don't know.
Q What was the nationality of the people in the camp who were experimental subjects?
A poles and Czechs.
Q How many Germans were there?
A Ten or eight, that spoke German.
Q Were there some Hungarians and Burgenlaender?
A No, I don't know.
Q Wasn't there a fellow there called Papai?
A I don't know.
Q Were the Frenchmen there nice, or were they typical SS men?
A No, they were good to us.
Q Were they inmates?
A Yes.
Q They were nurses. Were these Frenchmen good people?
A Yes.
Q Where did they sleep?
A I don't know.
Q Listen, witness, they slept next to you. You must know that?
A No. The doctor from the Luftwaffe was with the guards, and they guarded us with a pistol.