A Block 18.
Q Wasn't it block 20?
A Oh, 20, yes, 20.
Q You were in block 20. Do you remember who was the senior inmate there?
A There was a big Hungarian. He distributed the food.
Q Wasn't there a fellow named Laubinger?
A Yes, but he only distributed the food.
Q Yes, yes, I understand, and who was his deputy?
A In the block you mean?
Q Yes, Laubinger's deputy.
AA litle man, an East Prussian.
Q Well, you are not so little, witness.
A Me, yes.
Q Yes, I am talking about Laubinger's deputy in this room.
A I don't know.
Q Was it you?
A No, no.
Q Witness, these are very unimportant things, of little consequence, but it is better to tell the truth.
A Yes.
Q Now, just think. Weren't you Laubinger's deputy?
A No.
Q Didn't you help him carry the food?
A No.
Q Were you in any experiments there?
A No.
Q Now, let's go to the next camp, Buchenwald.
A Yes.
Q Were you in block 46 or 20 or where were you?
A We were in a tent camp.
Q Very good, in a big tent camp.
A Yes, there were several tents.
Q Were there a hundred gypsies or two hundred, how many?
A Oh, for God's sake, how shall I remember an exact number? There were a great many from Auschwitz. Some were put on a Wehrmacht transport. My brother was there. He was sent to Ravensbruck.
Q A little slower, witness. Then I am right if I say there were some thousands of gypsies?
A Yes.
Q Now, there was a roll call one day and volunteers were asked for for a work detail.
A No.
Q Do you remember that?
A No.
Q You yourself said that there was a roll call and people were wanted for Dachau?
A No, I don't know anything about it.
DR. STEINBAUER: The German record on Laubinger and Hoellenrainer is not yet available unfortunately.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, for the benefit of defense counsel, this witness did not say that. The witness Laubinger did. I didn't ask this witness how they selected them at Buchenwald.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, I am sorry I only have the English.
Q (By Dr. Steinbauer) Here when you were a witness you testified, "I was in a tent camp in Buchenwald."
A Yes.
Q "And suddenly our numbers were called."
A Yes.
Q "Forty men were called up including me."
A Yes -- no, we were just forty.
Q It says "including me." I didn't write the record. "We were told that we had to leave for Dachau; we had to work there."
A We were in Buchenwald in the tent camp and an SS man came and called our numbers. He called up my number too, and then we lined up in a group of our own. One gypsy who had already been in Dachau said it will be better in Dachau; we are going there to work, but we never volunteered for any experiments.
Q I didn't ask you about that, witness. I asked you whether it is true what I have just read to you; that you were called up against your will?
A We weren't asked at all. Forty of us were called together and were sent to Dachau.
Q Now, I have to tell you that your countryman -- he is from Furth too -- Mettbach, said that he talked to you; that he wanted to come because Dachau was nearer Furth than Buchenwald; is that true?
A That might be. I didn't mind going to Dachau because my brothers live in Munich.
Q Then you did go voluntarily?
A No, I did not.
Q How does it happen that Laubinger said something else. Laubinger said you were deceived, that is why you volunteered?
A No, I never volunteered. I certainly wouldn't ask for my own death and volunteer for....
Q Well, you went to Dachau?
A Yes.
Q Do you know the old Herzberg?
A No.
Q You don't remember the gypsy from Pressbourg?
A No.
Q Who was the oldest gypsy?
A I don't remember.
Q You were with your comrades for weeks, and don't know their names?
A No.
Q It is possible that Mettbach did not know all the names then, isn't it?
A How should I know? I did not have time to ask everybody what his name is.
Q Did the professor, when the experiments were to begin explain the purpose that it was for rescuing people from shipwrecks, and it was a sea-water experiment?
A Yes, of course.
Q Did he explain that you would be very thirsty?
A Yes, he did first.
Q And that thirst was very unpleasant?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember a Rudi Taubmann?
A Yes.
Q You said today that you thought he was a revolutionary?
A No, I did not say that.
Q And that he resisted, and the professor had to hold him back with a pistol?
A No, no Rudi Taubmann was in the cold water experiments already, and the doctor from the Luftwaffe said, "You will have to drink sea--water, and you will be hungry, and you won't get anything to eat," Then Rudi Taubmann came up and told the doctor from the Luftwaffe he would not do it. The doctor from the Luftwaffe said, "If you refuse, if you mutiny, I will shoot you."
Q Witness, I must put to you the testimony of Laubinger. You consider Laubinger a decent, trustworthy person?
A Yes.
Q Laubinger said on page 10220 of the English record when he was asked whether Taubmann and a certain Bamberger in Dachau -- do you know them?
A Yes, I know Bamberger.
Q Whether they were volunteers, and he said, yes, they volunteered?
A No, I never volunteered.
Q No, no, no. Laubinger and Bamberger -- I mean Taubmann and Bamberger?
A I don't know.
Q You said nobody volunteered?
A No.
Q But now I am telling you that Laubinger said. He said that Taubmann and Bamberger, who were in Dachau before volunteered?
A No.
Q Then Laubinger was lying?
A I don't know.
Q You know that he sad exactly the opposite to what you said?
A On that day if Taubmann had volunteered, he would not get so excited.
Q Then Laubinger was lying?
A I don't know.
Q Witness, I have read to you what the witness Laubinger testified to on this important point. Now I will ask you, is that true or not?
A I don't know what it is about.
MR. HARDY: Defense counsel, may we read the Laubinger testimony. I apparently missed it.
DR. STEINBAUER: Can you be kind enough to read it in English, Mr. Hardy. You do better than I.
MR. HARDY: (Reads transcript silently) BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Well, then, Mr Laubinger -
A My name is not Laubinger.
Q Oh, Mr. Hoellenreiner. Was Laubinger lying on you?
A Laubinger said the same thing I did. He has to, too. He has to tell the truth about what the doctor did.
Q Yes, you both have to tell the truth, but now you are saying exactly the opposite. One of you must be lying.
A I don't tell lies. I tell the truth what the doctor said.
Q Now then Laubinger was lying?
A I don't know.
Q That is enough. You said that the young Mettbach from Furth, that he was telling the truth?
A Yes. I know him.
Q But you never saw him again, you said, is that right?
A Yes, when he left the experiments we did not see him any more.
Q That is enough. Now this Mettbach said that until the end of the experiments he was always in the Water Station I/1 during the daytime, and only went to the Department II during the night?
A I don't know.
Q You just said you never saw him again?
A Yes.
Q How bid was the room where you were?
A Where these were carried out, where the experiments were carried out?
Q How big was that room? As big as this room?
A Not quite as big.
Q Then could you see the people?
A No, I did not see him any more.
Q Witness, wasn't there another Mettbach?
A I don't know.
Q About this Mettbach, didn't you see him in the room?
A No.
Q Then Mettbach is lying?
A We were so exhausted that we could not run around any more.
Q Then you were blind?
A No, I was not blind.
Q Then you became nearsighted?
A No. We were lying'on beds. We did not have any strength to run around.
Q Witness, thirst dries out the mouth?
A Yes.
Q How can you explain that these people had froth?
A They had attacks and fits, and foamed at the mouth, they got raving madness fits.
Q I am just asking you how it can be that when the mouth is completely dry there can be froth?
A I don't know.
Q Then some became mad?
A Yes.
Q You Gypsies stick together, too, don't you?
A Yes, of course.
Q Then you can tell me who became mad?
A I don't remember.
Q You must know, if a fried of mine -- I was a soldier twice and if a friend of mine had gone mad then I would have known it.
A It was a tall man who had first rolled on the floor. He was the first one and he and fits, and when he was there he was thrashing around with his hands and feet. He was a tall slim gypsy.
Q You said that you were weighed?
A Yes.
Q Isn't it possible that after you got out of the experiment, and got good food again and plenty of water, that you were weighed again?
A No.
Q But then they had a chart showing where you were weighed every day?
A I don't know.
Q Were you weighed standing up or lying down?
A Standing up.
Q Were some of the people weighed lying down?
A I don't remember.
Q Was this scale such that people could be weighed lying down?
A I don't know.
Q Where -- what did this scale look like?
A Well, it was a scale, a big scale. You had to stand on it. There was an indicator that showed the weight.
Q The man who had his mouth fastened shut, did he have a tube for his stomach, too?
A I don't remember.
Q You had a liver puncture?
A Yes.
Q Do you have a scar?
A I don't know.
Q Don't you ever look at yourself?
A Yes. You want to see it?
Q No. I am just asking you if you have a little circle, a little round scar there?
A I did not look at it as carefully as that.
Q Well, don't you think you have it? You do or you do not?
A I don't know. I was not interested in these camp matters any more. I would go crazy. I did not want to hear anything more about the camp. We suffered long enough.
Q Witness, do you think you are crazy or mentally defective?
A No.
Q Do you think there is something wrong with you mentally?
A No.
Q You say you are going crazy?
A Well, if I keep thinking of that camp.
MR. HARDY: I object to this line of questioning, your Honor.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Well, you had a liver puncture?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether you have a scar, yes or no?
A I don't know.
Q What was the nationality of the people in the camp who were experimental subjects?
A poles and Czechs.
Q How many Germans were there?
A Ten or eight, that spoke German.
Q Were there some Hungarians and Burgenlaender?
A No, I don't know.
Q Wasn't there a fellow there called Papai?
A I don't know.
Q Were the Frenchmen there nice, or were they typical SS men?
A No, they were good to us.
Q Were they inmates?
A Yes.
Q They were nurses. Were these Frenchmen good people?
A Yes.
Q Where did they sleep?
A I don't know.
Q Listen, witness, they slept next to you. You must know that?
A No. The doctor from the Luftwaffe was with the guards, and they guarded us with a pistol.
Q Well, 3 people were carried out, you said.
A Yes.
Q Do yon know their names?
A No.
Q Did anybody die during the experiment, as far as you know? Could you say Meier died, for example?
A No.
Q Then, after the experiment was over, you worked on a farm?
A Yes.
Q That was in September - harvest?
A Yes.
Q Was that clean work or was that dirty work?
A That was dirty work.
Q One got dirty easily?
A Yes.
Q. And where did you get after you left that farm? You had a phlegmone after this dirty work...
A Yes.
Q And then where did you go?
A Then I went to Augsburg.
Q To the Messerschmidt Works.
A Yes.
Q What were you there in the Messerschmidt Works?
A I was a laborer.
Q No, you were more. Just think.
A No, I was nothing. I was a common laborer. I was just a prisoner when I worked for Messerschmidt. My leg was still crooked when they sent me away from Dachau.
Q Weren't you the foreman there?
A No.
Q What are you living on now?
A I am a dealer in textiles and musical instruments.
Q Can you read and write?
A Yes.
Q Do you like to read the newspaper?
A No.
Q Do you have a radio?
A Yes.
Q At the beginning of this trial why didn't you come here and volunteer as a witness?
A I didn't hear about it.
Q But you have a radio!
A Yes.
Q Aren't you in the Care Station?
A Yes?
Q Didn't they talk about the experiments in Dachau?
A No. If I had known about it I would have come here immediately.
Q Didn't you ever beat anybody in Auschwitz?
A No. I can swear to that.
Q Now another question -- the witness, Massion....
A I don't know him.
Q He was a soldier, a young fellow from the Rhineland.
A In Auschwitz?
Q No, no. We are talking about Professor Beiglboeck's station.
A Yes.
Q He was a witness; his name was Massion - a young Luftwaffe soldier.
A Yes.
Q Do you remember him?
A Did he wear glasses?
Q No, a student from the Rhineland.
A I don't know. I only knew 2 -- the doctor from the Luftwaffe... there was an older man from the Luftwaffe and a younger man, with glasses. There was something wrong with his eyes.
Q Witness, a fellow named Pillwein, Fritz. Do you remember him? He was a nurse; he gave aid and food and weighed the people.
A Yes.
Q He was from Vienna?
A Yes, he was from Vienna.
Q Was he a nice fellow?
A Yes, he was a very good man.
Q Do you consider him trustworthy?
A Yes.
Q Then there was a Dr. Lesse there; he made the blood tests, etc.
A Yes.
Q Was he a nice fellow?
A From the Luftwaffe?
Q Yes, he was from the Luftwaffe.
AA big tall fellow?
Q Was he a nice fellow?
A Well, what do you mean -- nice?
Q I am just asking you, do you consider him trustworthy?
A No.
Q How about Worlicek?
A I don't know him.
Q He was from Vienna too; he helped Pillwein.
A I don't remember that.
Q Did this Pillwein treat you well?
A Yes.
Q Now I have to tell you that these witnesses, so there is no mistake -- the witness Worlicek said that the people were treated well outside of the experiment and then I should like the Prosecutor to read what the witness Laubinger said ... Well, that is not important...they all said that the Professor treated the experimental subjects well.
A No!
Q Well, are all these people lying then?
A How could the doctor from the Luftwaffe treat us well?
Q This doctor...
A What doctor?
Q Dr. Bieglboeck.
A No, he did not treat us well.
Q All right. Let us go on. Do you smoke a great deal?
A Yes, I used to smoke.
Q Did you smoke in the camp?
A Yes.
Q Was it easy to get cigarettes there?
A No.
Q In 1944 was it easy to get cigarettes anywhere in Germany outside of the camp?
A No.
Q Then cigarettes were very valuable?
A Yes.
Q Did you often sell or trade your food for cigarettes?
A No.
Q Did the professor give cigarettes to the patients?
A Yes.
Q How many?
A Two or three.
Q And the people who did the experiment well, got more?
A I don't know.
Q Well, think If Laubinger knew about it you must know about it.
A No I don't know.
Q Well, then you were in the experiment?
A Yes.
Q Your numbers 23?
A Yes.
Q Can it be that from the 22nd to the 30th of August 1944 you were in the experiment? That is 9 day -- 8½ days -- is that right, when you were directly in the experiment?
A The water experiments and the liver puncture and so on lasted a week or two.
Q Don't evade me -- when you yourself were drinking the water under supervision.
A I don't remember.
Q But think! It is important.
A I don't remember.
Q Why don't you remember? Do you want to make it more days or don't you want to tall the truth?
A No. I am telling the truth.
Q Well, I will show you a chart which shows that you were in the experiment 9 days at the most.
A No, it was longer.
Q Do you know what your weight was at the beginning?
A No.
Q At the end?
A No.
Q Were you ever photographed?
A Yes.
Q When you were in bed?
A On a stretcher in the courtyard we were photographed.
Q Was that at the beginning, the end, the middle, or when?
AAt the end of the experiment.
Q I am afraid I don't have the photographs with me but we don't need them. At the end of the experiment you were photographed?
A I don't remember exactly.
Q Now I asked you whether you were photographed and you said it was at the end.
A Yes.
Q All right. Now I would like to tell me whether you are the one with the No. 23 here.
A Yes.
Q First look at the picture.
A Here I am. (Indicating on photograph)
Q That is right? That is you?
A Here, in these two pictures.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be seated. Sit down, witness. BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Witness, these pictures were taken just before the end of the experiment?
A Yes.
Q And how did the experiment and in your case -- do you remember?
A I don't remember what day it was.
Q I asked you how, and were you given water to drink, or milk?
A No.
Q Well, what happened?
A We had to drink salt water.
Q Yes, but when that stopped?
A Well, when the experiment was finished, then we got water.
Q Well, did the professor give you an injection?
AAt the end he gave me a long bottle; it was water; he tied it up at the top and let it go into my arm.
Q That is what I wanted to know. Then after that did you feel better?
A No.
Q And it is not true if the professor says that it was almost a miracle how you revived and were able to walk around again?
A No. I did not jump nor did I run around when the experiment was finished. Prisoners had to help each other to walk.
Q Witness, weren't you photographed after you got this injection?
A I don't remember.
Q Well, think. Don't just say you don't know, but think it over. If you need time just think it over.
A No. I don't remember.
Q Now when these experiments were going on did you swindle?
A No, no, never.
Q You never drank any water?
A No.
Q We had a famous professor from America, here and he found out exactly who drank water, and when.
A I never drank any water. We were so exhausted we could not even get up and we were under guard.
Q You say you never drank water.
A No.
Q Then it is not possible that on 3 days -- on the 24th, the 25th and the 29th you certainly drank water and on the 28th probably?
A I did not drink any water during this experiment.
Q Didn't you throw away your urine?
A No, the doctor from the Luftwaffe examined the urine and he said, "Hollenrainer,..."
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, the translation has not been coming through.
Q Witness, did you throw away your urine?
A No.
Q How much of this water did you drink -- this yellow water?
A That was about the size of mug.
Q Could it have been half a litter?
A Yes.
Q And it had to be elimated, too. If it is taken into the body it has to be eliminated.
A Yes.
Q Well, how does it happen that on 2 days you had less urine than you drank, where otherwise you had exactly the same value? It is a very unimportant thing -- it would be much nicer...make a much better impression, if you tell the truth. The other gypsies admitted that they swindled. That you should be the only one...
A I didn't do anything; I didn't drink any water; I didn't eat anything.
Q And you did not throw away any urine?
A No.
Q Well, when you were so weak after the experiment and came back to your barracks, which barrack did you come to?
A Block 22.
Q 22. Weren't there other gypsies there too? Room 4, I think?
A I don't remember. And it is not important.
Q Did you meet Laubinger there?
A Yes.
Q Mettbach?
A No. No Mettbach.
Q Witness, I will have you confronted with Mettbach who will say that he was with you.
A When the experiment was finished he was with me but he went away to Mauthausen.
Q Witness, I am asking you whether Mettbach was in the room in Block 22 with you?
A I don't remember.
Q You don't remember -- that is something different. Do you consider it possible that he was there?
A I don't know.
Q Were there people who repeated the experiment?
A I don't know that either.
Q If a gypsy was lying on the ground, wouldn't you have helped him, or wouldn't the Frenchmen have helped him?
A The doctor from the Luftwaffe took the patients down on a stretcher and made the liver puncture; some of them in their beds, too.
Q. I am asking you if a person became mad or was writhing on the ground wouldn't any of his comrades have helped him?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Because they couldn't walk.
Q. Because you were weak?
A. Yes, we were weak.
Q. But the Frenchmen weren't so weak?
A. I don't know.
Q. They were next door?
A. The Frenchmen were there. They were in the other room.
Q. How far away was the other room?
A. In the same block on the right.
Q. There was just a door between them?
A. Yes.
Q. Were all the gypsies in the experiment at the same time or were there some that weren't in the experiment?
A. They were all in the experiment except Ernst Mettbach.
Q. You didn't understand me. I am sorry, witness. I am asking you whether all 44 of them drank sea water at the same time, or whether one group was thirsting and the others were going for a walk?
A. No, there were three kinds of water, white water and yellow water, and three groups, about 13 men in each group and 14 in one.
Q. That is what I wanted to know. The group not in the experiment did they eat in the room or out of the room?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, witness, you were there?
A. How should I know. When I was drinking seawater we didn't get anything to eat.
Q. What about the others?
A. We were all in the block. We couldn't walk.
Q. Did some people have to repeat the experiment?