MR. FERENCZ: If your Honor please, the Prosecution has no objection to the defense taking the stand in any order they see fit, but we Would appreciate it if the Prosecution could be given notice in advance of the order they intend to take so that we may prepare our cross-examinations at the same time.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. For the information of the Prosecution the Tribunal will state that Joost's order was moved back only because his counsel was appointed a little later than the other attorneys, so that it now stands this way: Naumann, Schulz, Joost. Then we have no reason to assume that the regular order will not be followed following that.
MR. FERENCZ: We would like to know if the Defendant Rasch intends to take the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: We had set that aside because of the physical condition involved there, and I don't suppose Rasch's attorney is here this afternoon. No. Very well, will someone -- I will ask the Secretary-General to obtain information at the Defense Information Center as to the condition of Rasch and the intention of his counsel with regard to placing Rasch on the witness stand.
DR. GAWLIK: Dr. Gawlik for the Defendant Naumann. the examination of the Defendant Naumann in his own defense. With the permission of the Tribunal I call the Witness Naumann to the witness stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The oath has not yet been administered.
ERICH NAUMANN, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE DIXON: Defendant you will stand. Raise your right hand and repeat after me. the pure truth and will withold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE DIXON: You may be seated.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q When and Where were you born? English and 4 of the German text of Exhibit 113, Document NO-2970, and from Document Book II-D, Page 1 of the English and Page 1 of the German, Exhibit 112, Document NO-4150. Are the statements in these documents about your person correct?
A In Document 4150 there is one small mistake. It must be on Page 1. Instead of "1940" it should read "1942."
A Yes, I am just looking for it. In the seventh line from the top, but this is in the German text, you must read the whole text, the sentence reads: "In the year 1935 I became SS-Fuehrer in full time capacity and from 1940 on I became an official and a police officer." Here it should read "1942" instead of "1940."
THE PRESIDENT: Which page of the original?
THE WITNESS: That is Page 1 of the Document 4150. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q And in the original?
THE PRESIDENT: Read the sentence again, please.
THE WITNESS: On Line 7 of the German text, "In the year 1935 I became SS-Fuehrer in a full time capacity, and from 1940 on I became an official and a police officer." There it should read "1942" instead of "1940."
THE PRESIDENT: "1940" does not appear in the English text.
MR. FERENCZ: If your Honors please, I believe the English text says "1935." I believe that is what the defendant is referring to.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, it should be, "I have been a member of the SD since 1940," is that the correction he wishes to make?
THE WITNESS: That is already the next sentence, I mean the previous sentence.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it reads in the English this way. "I joined the SA in a fulltime capacity. In 1935 I became full-time SS leader, and since 1935 I was an official and officer of the police." Is it that "1935" which is incorrect?
THE WITNESS: Yes, that is not correct, but in the German text it says "1940", not "1935."
THE PRESIDENT: And it should be nineteen-forty -- what?
THE WITNESS: 1942.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the correction is made.
THE WITNESS: The other document is 2970, in the same document book, Page 14 of the German text.
DR. GAWLIK: This is Exhibit 113, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: In the middle of this page, it is on Page 11 of the original document.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Next to my signature it says "10th of January '42." That should read 10th of January, 1943, because in January, 1942, I was neither Brigadier General nor Major General. Otherwise, outside of a few typographical errors, which are not important, this document is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: The corrections will be noted. BY DR. GAWLIK: the year 1929? not at all active politically. The distress of the year 1929, the struggles between the various parties, the collapse of the economy, the unemployment with all its devastating results, and the resulting party struggles caused me to bother my head about political parties.
Thus in May 1929 I went for the first time to a gathering of the Nazi Party. In November 1929 I then joined the Party. Before I worried about political parties I was a neutral German as far as party policies were concerned who loved his Fatherland, but who rejected Marxism, the Nazi Party seemed to be the only party which would find the way out of this distress and misery which was not Marxistic but was yet socialistic. For this reason I joined the Party in November 1929.
Q How long were you an SD leader in full capacity? first of July, 1935, until the end of the war.
Q Where were you active before? and I was this from October, 1933, until June, 1934.
Q In what were you active after that? the Educational Matters. Here I remained until June 1935 when the organization was dissolved.
Q Was this an agency of the Party of an affiliation of the Party? connections with the Party, of its affiliations. was accepted by you? Educational Matters was dissolved in the year 1935. Therefore, I had to look for another position. Through a former acquaintance of mine, the then SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Joost, who offered me a post as a department head in the SD Main Office, I came to the SD.
Q What position did you first hold in the SD?
AAs department chief in the central Department III/2.
Q What was your activity in this central Department III/2?
protection organization? fuehrer in Austria? Graz and Klagenfurt, had to be given SD subdepartments which then would function as branches of the SD Main Office, just like all the other SD subdepartments worked in the Reich.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Gawlik, may I interrupt please? The Defendant Ohlendorf will be excused from attendance this afternoon for the purpose of an interrogation which is to be made by Mr. Wolfe.
(The Defendant Ohlendorf was thereupon excused.)
Q (By Dr. Gawlik) And what were the missions and the activities of the SD in Austria? fuehrer in Berlin? domestic services for the District of the Reich capital, Berlin, and for the District of the Province Mark Brandenburg.
Q When did you become Chief of Einsatzgruppe B in Russia? Einsatzgruppe in Russia?
Q Did you voluntarily report for this mission?
Q Who gave you this order to take over this Einsatzgruppe B? B from Streckenbach, the head of Office I. Heydrich gave the order for me to take this group over.
Q Who signed the Transfer- order? Russia?
Q Can you give reasons for this?
A Yes. Orders of Heydrich had to be obeyed, especially during war time. the commitment? would have been sentenced to death for refusing to obey an order.
Q When did you leave Berlin?
Q When did you arrive at the Einsatzgruppe B?
Q And when did you take over the command of Einsatzgruppe B? introduced me to the job and during that time I did not have my power of command. Nebe still held it. After the expiration of this week, Nebe handed the Einsatzgruppe over to me and frm then on I was Commanding Officer of Einsatzgruppe B.
Q How long were you Commanding Officer of Einsatzgruppe B? of the German text, I submit to you Exhibit 113, Document NO-2970. This document says from the 1st of November 1941 you were Chief of Einsatzgruppe B. How do you explain this statement in this document book? Is that correct?
A The 1st of November is the date of my Transfer - order. After Gruppenfuehrer Streckenbach had ordered me to take over Einsatzgruppe B, Rasch suddenly was supposed to take over Einsatzgruppe B and I was supposed to go to Kiev. At the same time it was discussed that Rasch should go to Berlin and Thomas was to be sent to Russia and it was not clear whether Thomas or I were to go to Kiev or Smolensk. After a long discussion back and forth I finally went to Smolensk. Rasch did not go to Smolensk but went to Berlin and Thomas went to Kiev as new Chief of Einsatzgruppe C. During that time I had to remain in Berlin, because my destination was not yet determined. English, page 23 of the German text, Exhibit 72, Document NO-2830. This concerns the Operational Situation Report 132 dated 12th of November, 1941. In this Operational Situation Report of the 12th of November 1941, you are already mentioned as the Commanding Officer of Einsatzgruppe B. Were you already Chief of Einsatzgruppe B at that time?
November, 1941. Report 132 of the 12th of November, 1941? RSHA, but as my Transfer Order was of the 1st of November 1941, I of course, was automatically mentioned in the reports as Chief of Einsatzgruppe B.
Q Where were these Operational Situation Reports compiled? It may have been Office IV, but I am not sure. on these situation reports?
A Yes, for example, in the case of Rasch, I don't remember these two reports, but there are two operational Situation Reports of the 29th of October and the 5th of November. In these two Operational Situation Reports of the 29th of October and the 5th of November. In these two operational Situation reports, Rasch is designated as Commanding Officer of Einsatzgruppe B, even though he never was in Smolensk in all his life. It may have been caused by the fact that Rasch as I said before was to go to Smolensk before me, which was made known in Office I and therefore Rasch was certainly mentioned as Chief of Einsatzgruppe B in these Operational Reports.
Q Who was your predecessor in Einsatzgruppe B?
Q Who was Nebe?
A Nebe was the Chief of the Reich Criminal Office. That is, the Chief of the Reich Criminal Police.
Q What were the reasons why Nebe was recalled?
A I don't know. I assume that he had to return in order to continue his very important activity as Chief of the German Criminal Police.
Q What Einsatzkommandos belonged to Einsatzgruppe B? 7b, and the Special Kommando Moscow and the independent, detachments Smolensk and a small detachment which was the advance command post. gruppe B?
Q What was the composition of this staff? assistants, the signal personnel, guard personnel, and the drivers. These together were members of the staff.
Q What was the garrison of Einsatzgruppe B?
Q Where is Smolensk? subordinated to you?
A That varied. The Einsatzkommandos contained about 130 to 150 men. The Special Kommandos were smaller, about 60 to 70. The Special Kommando Moscow contained about 30 men during my time. Einsatzgruppen and the Special Kommandos from your garrison? kommando 9x -- that was about 150 kilometers -- and others were considerably farther. For instance, 7b was in Orel, which was about 450 kilometres away. 7a was in Kalinin, about 500 kilometres away and these distances cannot be measured with our Middle European conditions here, because the road conditions in Russia especially after the battles were very bad and to travel even small distances took a considerable amount of time. As an example I might cite that a trip from Einsatzkommando 9 to Einsatzkommando 7a took me about 1 whole day from early morning to night to travel 300 kilometres.
Q How large was the area of Einsatzgruppe B approximately? a whole Army corps. Thus it consisted of the areas of first 6, later 5, and 4 Armies and then extended back. The territory began in the north east in the Kalinin, which is north of Moscow. The boundry went farther south and down to the area near Orel. From there the border went from east to west, down south west of Gomel in the Pripet Marshes and from there a line south to north to the Delta of the Dyna and from there a line from the west to the east to Kalinin. I once placed this territory on the map of central Europe and this square covered the following area: The points of the square were Kiel in the North-east, Vienna in the South-east, Paris in the south west and London in the north west.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, I ask that the defendant may rise and point this teritory out on the map.
THE PRESIDENT: He may do so.
THE WITNESS: Kalinin -- there is Moscow. North of Moscow is the Volga. North from Moscow is Kalinin, near the Volga and there its borders cross the M of Moscow down through Podolsk, down to about Tula, which is near Orel. Then the border went through Kursk. South of Kursk, Cherkassy, then along the Pripet Marshes down to the old Polish border and then north outside of the territory, Borisov is still included, then up near the source of the Dune River and then across the lake up there back Kalinin.
Q. Were you subordinated to the Chief of the Security Police and SD?
A. Yes.
Q. Where you also subordinated to any other agencies?
A. Yes. To the Commander-in-Chief of the Army Group Center, the Commander of the Rear Army Center and the Higher SS and Police Leader Central Russia.
Q. To what extent were you under the command of the Commanderin-Chief of Army Group B?
A. Not Army Group B, but Army Group Center. The Commander-inChief of Army Group Center was my superior as far as march-routes housing, food, and these matters were concerned. Furthermore, I had to report to the Commander-in-Chief and as far asthe tactical situation demanded it I had to accept orders from him.
Q. To what extent were you subordinated to the command of the Commander of the Rear Area?
A. In the same manner, only restricted to the Rear Area.
Q. To what extent were you subordinated to the Higher SS and Police Leader?
A. The Higher SS and Police Leader exercised a sort of supervision over all parts of the SS and Police units in his area.
Q. Did you give the Einsatzkommandos and special detachments under your command, any special orders to execute Jews, Gypsies, and Communist functionaries?
A. No.
Q. On the basis of what orders did the Einsatzkommandos and Special Kommandos carry out executions of Jews, Gypsies, and Communist functionaries?
A. On the basis of the order handed down by the Chief of the Security Police and SD, and by Gruppenfuehrer Streckenbach.
Q. Witness, was this order handed down to you during your time of service with the Einsatzgruppe B?
A. No, this order had already been handed down before the Einsatzkommandos and Special Kommandos went to Russia.
Q. And who wasthen commanding officer of Einsatzgruppe B -- in order to determine this once and for all?
A. The first Chief of Einsatzgruppe B was my predecessor, Nebe.
Q. On the basis of this order was every member of the Communist party to be killed?
A. No. Only insofar as they exercised any endangering activity.
Q. Could you have prevented the execution of this order?
A. No, I could not.
Q. Can you give any more reasons for this?
A. Yes, I had no possibility of preventing the execution of a Fuehrer Order. This would have brought the most severe measures in its wake against me. Furthermore, I would not have been able to change anything in the order if I had disobeyed it.
Q. Perhaps you can express more clearly what would have happened to you if you had attempted to prevent the execution of this order, already given to the Einsatzkommandos and Special Kommandos.
A. I would have been put before an SS and Police Court, and certainly would have been sentenced to death; but I think it would have been even more probable that Himmler would have given the order to have me shot if I had refused to obey the order.
Q. From Document Book III-B, page 1 of the English text, page 1 of the German text, I submit to you Exhibit 112, Document NO-4150. This if your affidavit of the 27th of June 1947. Are the statements in this affidavit correct?
A. Yes, I already said that with one exception -- 1942, instead of 1940 -- outside of this, they are correct.
Q. Under number 4 of this affidavit, you stated the following: "I know that while I wasits chief, Einsatzgruppe B--- or, as the case may be -- the Einsatzkommandos, Sonderkommandos and other units under its control carried out executions."
Is this statement correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Did Einsatzgruppe B itself - that is, the staff - carry out any executions?
A. No, this was not its job.
Q. What were the other units outside of the Einsatz- and Special Kommandos Which carried out executions?
A. That was the independent detachment Smolensk.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Gawlik, I don't quite understand your differentiation between the affidavit and the interpretation that you are attempting to derive from it. How, paragraph 4 states that "Einsatzgruppe B carried out executions" -- leaving out the intervening phraseology. Noe, you are having the witness to say Einsatzgruppe B did not carry, out executions. How do you interpret that from this very clear statement in the affidavit?
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, shall I explain this, or shall the witness explain?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I would like to have the witness explain it, under your direction.
A. (By the witness) The Einsatzkommandos and Special Kommandos belonged to Einsatzgruppe B. If the Einsatzkommandos and Special Kommandos carried out executionsthey are to be counted as total executions of Einsatzgruppe B as a total unit. But I was asked by Dr. Gawlik whether the staff of Einsatzgruppe B -- the 60 men - carried out any executions. To that I answered No, - it was not its task, it was not the mission of the staff to carry out executions.
THE PRESIDENT: But the Einsatzgruppe B was responsible for the executions. The staff was responsible for the executions. They may not have actually pulled any trigger, but the Einsatzgruppe B was in charge of executions assigned to that action group.
A. (By the witness) No, Your Honor, it was not this way. I already said in the beginning that the area of Einsatzgruppe B was very large, -- and I believe Dr. Gawlik will come back to this during the trial -- it was, therefore, not possible to give express orders to each pendently, to a large extent. The largo distances forced them to do it; so did the lack of communications; and also local subordination to the army or to the Commander of the Rear Area.
THE PRESIDENT: You knew that there was an order which required the Einsatzkommandos and Sonderkommandos to perform executions? Answer that, please.
A. (By the witness) Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, and these Einsatzkommandos and Sonderkommandos came under your jurisdiction in Einsatzgruppe B?
A. (By the witness) Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, so that the only distinction you were drawing is between the trigger men and the headquarters? Lot me put it in another way -
A. (By the witness) No, Your Honor -- I am describing the situation asit was. In Pretsch and in Schmieberg I don't know exactly how it was -- I was not there -- the Einsatzgruppen chiefs and the leaders of the Einsatzkommandos and Special kommandos were given these orders, and on the basis of these orders they acted.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. And they were under your supervision and control. You were the superior officer of those Einsatzkommandos and Sonderkommandos?
A. (By the witness) Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, and what you are telling the Tribunal is that you and your staff did not actually participate in an execution?
A. (By the witness) No.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, he wants to say even more than that.
He wants to say that he did not give any order for those executions because the order already was existing for the Einsatzkommandos and Special Kommandos at the time when he took over the Einsatzgruppe.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR FERENCZ: Excuse me, Your Honor. I believe the defendant is on the stand, and we will hear from him what he intends to say, and not his defense counsel. We object to defense counsel explaining what defendant wants to say.
DR. GAWLIK: This is the moment, Your Honor, which I have already mentioned before, When I raised an objection against some additions which the Prosecution made in their presentation of evidence, and them at that time Your Honor was kind enough to tell me that if I would make such additions Your Honor would tell the Prosecution the very same thing.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I assure you that my kindness, as you very kindly termed it, will carry over to this point -- and therefore you are absolved from any sin. BY DR. GWLIK:
Q. We were under number 4 of this Document NO-4150. I ask you now, - Did the Einsatzgruppe B itself - that is, its staff - carry out any executions?
A. No. The staff did not carry out any executions. That was, as I said, not its mission.
Q. What were the missions and the activities of the Einsatz and Special Kommandos?
A. The Einsatz and Special Kommandos had the mission to keep order and security in the entire army area, in the rear of the combatting army.
Q. What were the activities and missions of the staff?
A. The staff was to busy itself with personnel questions, administrative questions, organizational matters; it had the motor questions under it; food, housing.
Furthermore, it had to accept the reports from the Kommandos; it had to compile collective reports and send them to Berlin, to the Main Office, end to other agencies.
independently?
A They had to work completely independently. This was because of the great distances, the very bad communications, and the various orders commands of the army and their localities, or the commander of the rear area. Kommandos active as a result of orders given to them by the staff? detection in building up indigenous police; in reporting all necessary domestic information; and other such matters. police? police--to see that order and security were maintained, that crime be prevented. Furthermore, the indigenous police was used also in partisan detection, and it also fought partisans. gruppe B?
A The Commandos and detachments had to do this. The detachments were called "Troops", with Einsatzgruppe B- therefore, "Troop Detachment Smolensk" for instance.
page 1 of the English and German text, Exhibit 112, Document 4150. This is your affidavit of the 27th of June 1947. Under number 5 it says: "Einsatzgruppe B received from the Reich Security Main Office Berlin, two or three gas vans but these were shortly afterwards passed on to Einsatzgruppe in the south. As far as I know Einsatzgruppe B did not use these vans.
Are these statements correct?
Q Did you ask for these gas vans?
Q Who ordered the assignment of these gas vans?
A I don't know; probably some agency in the RSHA.
Q Did you know about this order?
Q Could you have prevented the assignment of these gas vans?
Q How long were these gas vans with Einsatzgruppe B? give you the exact period.
Q What happened to those gas vans?
A I don't know whether they were used for the purpose assigned to them. I know I saw one of them, that once one of those gas vans was used to carry wood, I don't know whether they were used for original purpose. I did not hear of any such case.
Q Who ordered that the gas vans be given away? of the German, I submit to you exhibit of Ott, of the 24th of April 1947. Ott speaks of an execution in this affidavit, which took place in the surroundings of Bryansk.
Did you order the execution near Bryansk? it?
Q Could you prevent the carrying out of this executions? the execution?
Q On the basis of what orders were the valuables collected? I took over the Einsatzgruppe.
Q Who gave this order?
A Ott must be mistaken here. I already said that this order already existed when I took over Einsatzgruppe B.
THE PRESIDENT: Do I understand, Dr. Gawlik, that it is your intention, or your client's intention, to repudiate the affidavit of Ott?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, in this respect, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: I notice in the defendant's own affidavit, in paragraph 7, the affidavit of June 27, 1947, that he says, "I am aware that the administration chiefs collected valuables and money belonging to the persons intended for execution. The money and valuables were remitted to the Ministry of Finance." It would appear from this statement that he know beforehand, before the executions, that the valuables were to be collected.
DR. GAWLIK: Perhaps he can asnwer that question.
THE WITNESS; There was an order that the valuables of those people to be executed were to be collected by the administrative cheifs and were to be sent back to the staff of Einsatzgruppe B with a letter. The staff of Einsatzgruppe B, that is, Department II, the Administration, now was to send these valuables on to the RSHA, later to an agency of the Reich Finance Ministry in Mogilew, or Borisow, I don't know exactly which place it was.
THE PRESIDENT: Wouldn't parts of this affidavit be correct in that incident where he says that the valuables which were collected from these people were sent to Einsatzgruppe B. This was ordered by command of Naumann.