recollect and then in '20 yes, I think it must have been '20, I come to Koenigsberg. That is approximately how it was.
Q You mean '20 you went to Koenigsberg? Arnsberg as a section chief and you remained in that position until 1941. Do you remember whether that is correct?
A 1940 to Koenigsberg? That is quite impossible.
Q How is it according to your recollection? I don't remember.
Q You can't remember that? Do you remember that your activity as section chief in Dortmund was interrupted on repeated occasions. Do you remember that? Do you understand what I asked you? went to Russia, or the middle of '40, of '40 I went to Russia, and then I first was under Stahlecker. certain events. Do you remember that during your activity with the sector in Dortmund, you repeatedly did something else just them cope with your SD activity? it is very difficult to concentrate. I can't even keep that thing on, the earphones on.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Gick, we will anticipate the recess by five or ten minutes, and I would suggest that when we reconvene after the recess that you begin with the year 1939. He will have had a little rest, his energies may be refreshed, and then we can get immediately to the issue. Later on, if you believe that it is important, then you can go back in to the period prior to 1939, but now that we have him here and he is oriented, let's get to the issue. So I would suggest that after recess you do that.
( A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. BELZER: Dr. Belzer for the defendant Graf. Your Honor, I would like to ask that, for the further preparation of his defense, the defendant Graf be excused from attendance in court this afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Graf will be excused from attendance in court this afternoon.
Q Dr. Gick, it will be permissible within reasonable limits for you to lead the witness, so that the amount of talking that he will need to do will be reduced to a minimum. You can take him right up to a situation, and then put the question to him.
DR. GICK: Very well, Your Honor. your Honor, I had my earphones on , and thus I was not able to hear the English translation. During the recess it was pointed out to me that the testimony of the witness didn't come through in the English translation as it was said originally by the witness. What the defendant said here as a witness appeared in the German as rather confused German, in fact, completely confused. I understand the fact that it is difficult to translate the words of the witness in such a manner that the Tribunal gets the impression exactly as given by the witness. But I think it necessary, that the translation, in order to give you a correct impression, give every word the defendant says, no matter what nonsense it is.
THE PRESIDENT: Now Dr. Gick -
DR. GICK: Even that repititions are also mentioned.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, please, Dr. Gick. Now, we will instruct you not to keep referring to the defendant's condition, to nonsense, and so on. You proceed with the examination. The Court will determine whether it is nonsense or not, and we are not aware there were any libertics taken with the translation, but if any mistakes occur in the translation, and they are pointed out to the Tribunal later, or even now if you know exactly which ones they were, the corrections will be made.
Now let's proceed immediately to the issue. 1939, what happened?
DR. GICK: In order to bring this up again, may I ask the interpreter be asked that every word be translated.
THE PRESIDENT: We have the utmost faith in the interpreter, and that will be done without any additional admonition or request on the part of the Tribunal.
DR. GICK: Very well. BY DR. GICk: At that time you were still Section Chief?
A Well, when was I supposed to have arrived? At that time you were Section Chief in Dortmund?
Q What office did you take over after the year 1941?
Q That is all right. You should merely answer. as Section chief in Dortmund, where were you transferred to ?
A Yes. Yes.
Q Do you understand my question?
Q Please, answer it?
Q You don't understand the question then?
Q Then please will you reply to it? already discussed that I was to go somewhere else, and the Section Chief said - -
THE PRESIDENT: Witness. Witness, will you please direct your attention to the Tribunal. Where were you in the year 1941?
THE wITNESS: I beg your pardon?
THE PRESIDENT: Where were you in the year 1941?
THE WITNESS: Well, Your Honor, I always get the German. I always hear you speaking in German. I don't know that much German.
THE PRESIDENT: Where were you in the year of 1941?
THE WITNESS: In the year of 1941, I was in Koenigsberg.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, Proceed Dr. Gick. BY DR. GICK: Koenigsberg then?
A Yes. No answer.
Q What office did you take over there?
Q I don't understand you?
A The Government Counsellor's Office.
Q The Government Counsellor's Office, is that right? Herr Strauch, please think what you are saying. You could not have taken over the Government Counsellor's Office?
A No, I didn't take it over. I took over one department in the Government Counsellor's Office, that is what I took over. The Government Counsellor's Office in the police - - the subject of - - - in the police county counsellor, senior government, that is too main government.
Q In Koenigsberg there is a district government?
Q Were you with the district government?
A No. There are two government. There is one main government, and another government.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, please, please, now Dr. Gick, you know from the document, and from the personnel record, of Eduard Strauch, that since 4 November 1941 he was leader of Einsatzcommando Latvia, two. so begin with the date, November 4th, 1941. you know what he is charged with in the documents. Take up the document immediately and have him give whatever explanations. Counsel, you may begin with. when he actually arrived in Russia, or, when he was assigned to go to Russia, but this is a crux of the charges against him, what he did in the East, and, if you want to go back later, you may. You may lead two witness to that point.
DR. GICK: Your Honor, It is very difficult for me to conduct this direct examination here, because in my opinion I don't have a man in front of me with whom I can conduct this examination in a normal manner. I was just about - -
THE PRESIDENT: That is quite obvious to the Tribunal, and for this reason we said that you may lead the witness. you know your case. you know what he is charged with.
DR. GICK: yes, I am just about to clarify that point.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q Herr Strauch, when did you come to Koenigsberg? Hundred and -- Well, as far as I know -
Q How long were you in Koenigsberg then?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Gick, you don't need to labor over a date. If he doesn't think of it, you may supply it. We don't need to linger and work and puzzle over things which can easily be found in the record and which you undoubtedly know, so help the witness.
DR. GICK: Your Honor, may I comment on this very briefly? It is my opinion that the most important part is to hear what the defendant has to reply himself to may questions, and, if I lead him and he answered a leading which I put to him, this would not give exactly the same impression which the defendant would give otherwise.
THE PRESIDENT: We don't mean that you should lead him on a very vital point, but the matter of when he left Koenigsberg, if it is in the documents, you needn't worry him with that, and, incidentally, it is the first time, Judge Speight observes, that we have heard a lawyer objecting to leading a witness.
DR. GICK: The special situation requires it, Your Honor. May I continue, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: Please do. Q (BY DR. GICK) Herr Strauch, may I remind you that in Koenigsberg you were Section Chief of the SD, which is the same as in Dortmund, until the time when you were supposed and had to take over another office.
Do you know what office you were supposed to take over? to Riga? reached me on 2 January, as far as I know.
Q Second of January, what year?
A In what year? Nineteen Hundred -- Nineteen Hundred -22 -- 20 -- 2d January 1920.
Q Herr Strauch in 1941 you were in Koenigsberg. Then the order only could have reached you in the year 1941, is that right?
Q When do you think that the order reached you? Yes, 1941 Is that right, 1941? And then 19-- I took over the kommando in Riga for a very brief period. I had to remain there and them in 1942 I was transferred form Riga to -what is that called again? I can't think of it. I will think of it in a moment. Just a moment. Rovno. the date.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Glancy, just a moment, Dr. Gick. Mr. Glancy, will you please furnish the Tribunal with the document numbers, document books, and the pages which contain ther specific charges against this witness?
MR. GLANCY: Sir, that might be found in the Order of Presentation contained in Document Book III-A, Responsibility. of the Defendant Strauch.
THE PRISIDENT: Page?
MR. GLANCY: Page 2 of Document Book III-A. It begins with NO-2966 in Document Book III-A and continues on.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR. GLANCY: Do you have that, Sir?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I have it now, thank you. All right, proceed, Dr. Gick. Q (BY DR. GICK) Herr Strauch, please concentrate hard and try to remember when you received the order to take over the office in Riga.
A I can't say quite exactly. but I assume that -- I assume that in '44 -- that must have been in 1944. few days of November, 1941, you received a teletype message containing the order that you were to go to Riga, is that right?
Q What happened after this? No, it is not right. It isn't right.
Q What is wrong here?
A This teletype message was not this one. It was a teletype message where it was suggested to me in Riga to remain. I was told in this teletype message to remain in Riga.
Q What happened as a result of that teletype message? I was to remain in Riga forever.
Q That you were to remain in Riga forever? to remain there constantly.
elbow and your upper arm again? I am asking you again?
A It is quite simple. I wrote to my wife and told her
Q You would have to return to Berlin?
A No, to Koenigsberg. I would have to return to Koenigsberg.
Q But you were in Koenigsberg. You were to go to Riga from Koenigsberg?
A Where was I? O, like this -- that is how it was In Derrings I was in Koenigsberg and I waited there and wanted to get away and then there came my attempt to remain in Koenigsberg and since -- and since I did not want to remain in Koenigsberg, I made an attempt -- well, through a teletype message, I was trying to get away through this teletype message, and then I was told I would not be permitted. I could not -- or, rather, I could get leave, but that I had to go back to -- to -- what do you call it? To Frankfurt on the Oder River.
Q Frankfurt on the Oder River?
Q Weren't you to go to Riga, not to Frankfurt on the Oder River? Figuero, Fruehr.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Gick -
DR. GICK: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness Strauch. Witness Strauch, please look at me. You are in court and you are charged with serious crimes. we are aware of the fact that you have been ill and that on certain occasions you are afflicted with seizures, but we are not aware that between these seizures you are not fully mentally capable of understanding and participating in ordinary conversations. Now, your demonstration this morning is not very convincing of a willingness to cooperate with your attorney. We do not believe that you purposely are giving unresponsive answers, but we are of the opinion that you are being very careless. Now, if you think that by giving irresponsible answers that you are helping your case, you are making a very bad mistake, Now, we want you to take hold of yourself and answer intelligently, The medical records do not show that you are incapable of answering questions intelligently. Now, please, in a very calm and tranquil way listen and answer and answer Intellingently.
Now, Dr. Gick, we will call to your attention that in this very brief survey which I have made, after Mr. Glancy called to my attention the page on which I could find the documents, that there are two documents here to which you could well direct your attention at once, namely, the letter from the Commissioner Kube and the affidavit made by Sandberger, both of which charge this present defendant with crimes. Now, direct your attention, please, to these specific charges to begin with. Are you familiar with the document, PS-3428on page 30 of Document Book III-A? That is, it begins on 30. On page 32 you will find the reference to Strauch in which it is alleged that he participated in some way in executions which eventually mounted to 55,000.
DR. GICK: Your Honor, I do not have the document with me. I already pointed out that I Started the direct examination of the defendant in November 1947 - I started working on it, I mean - but that about the beginning of December it was no longer possible
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, Dr. Gick, are you familiar with this document?
DR. GICK: Yes, I know the document.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then, ask the witness about the statements in that document.
DR. GICK: Your Honor, may I not develop this chronologically? In Latvia the defendant was also charged with several things, for instance, the Jeckeln Action.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Very well. That is what I would like to have you do. Proceed to the direct charges. I only chose this one because it is the first one that came to my attention. You choose any one you desire. Now, please, have the defendant answer to the charges and don't tire him out with what can be omitted until later on, if we find then that it is relevant.
BY DR. GICK: to Riga. Do you know when you came to Riga?
A Is it so terribly important for me to know this? 14 Jantsen.
Q Herr Strauch, I Shall come back to this later. Please reply to my following question - what office did you hold in Riga?
A I did not get it. Please answer again. However, I did not carry out any office. I did not -
Q You were in Charge of an SS or SD office in Riga. That is, you were transferred there in order to take over an office.
What office was this?
A Well, I don't know. I don't know.
Q In Riga were you the commander of the Security police and SD?
Q Were you the Chief of Einsatzkommando 2?
Q I did not understand you. Please repeat.
Q Were you Commander of the SD and the Security Police? Einsatz - of the Chief -- the commander of the Einsatzkommando 2 no, it is wrong again. Well, I had nothing to do with the kommando, but immediately as commander -- as Chief of the Einsatzkommando, I went to Riga. Einsatzkommando.
Q You said you became Chief of the Einsatzkommando. That does not agree.
A Noo, I have nothing to do with it. I am not Chief of the Einsatzkommando but I was commander of the Einsatzkommando. Do you understand me now? and the SD in Latvia stationed in Riga?
A Right. That's it. Kommando Chief -- Chief of the kommando of the Einsatzkommando - Latvia.
Q Who was the commander of the Security Police and the SD in Riga?
A That was before my time, when I arrived - yes, who was it? In any case I had a predecessor - I don't know any more who it was. you came to Latvia?
established and the predecessor, I was to be trained and I was well, this work was kept away from me. I was to be trained first for three days or so. That is how it was to remain and then during the time when I was there for three days, the predecessor was retained there and that was Patz.
Q Who was Patz?
Q What was his office as Chief? police.
Q Commander of the Security Police? And you were to become Patz' successor? of the Kommando which was advancing but we wre merely the administrative office.
Q You were merely the administrative office?
Q Were you chief of the Administrative office?
Q In Chena?
Q Riga? And the chief of which office were you? Police and SD.
Q you were then Commander of the Security Police and SD? II, number II? example, I had nothing to do with the State Police. One could say that and then, for example, I did not have to give any orders to the State Police and they had people - as Commander one did not have to give any orders and one did not have to make decisions.
Q As a commander? Riga?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Gick, now the important thing is not when, where, and how he broke his arm but whether he killed and Jews. Now, ask hii that - did he kill any Jews? That's what he is charged with you know.
DR. GICK: Your Honor, here for example a date is of important, namely the 3th November 1941, That was the day when the so-called Jeckeln operation is supposed to have taken place in Latvia. I am now discussing those dates because I want to show whether Strauch was still commander on that day, chief of the Einsatzkommando or not.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, why not ask him that question? Why not ask him that question - that's the way to find out instead of going around Robin Hood's barn.
DR. GICK: In my opinion I have to create a basis for this which should help the defendant to answer this question what happened.
THE PRESIDENT: But why not have him answer first. Then, if any explanation is in order ample opportunity is permitted but you see the difficulties you are having. So, try to got to the pivotal point. Now ask him about this Jeckeln action. Was he commander at this time in Jeckeln?
DR. GICK: Your Honor, you will see we cannot. I shall now put this specific question.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, now, Dr. Gick, if you are anticipating that you can't proceed, that doesn't show that you are very anxious to cooperate either. You are already saying now we won't be able to proceed. How do you know? Has thedefendant told you he won't be able to proceed?
DR. GICK: Your Honor, I realize the witness cannot remember any dates.
THE PRESIDENT: Listen, Dr. Gick, you do not need to repeat to us what we through our own senses are able to scertain. Proceed to the question.
BY DR. GICK:
Q Herr Strauch, where were you on 30 November 1941?
A I don't get that at all.
Q I asked you were you were on 30 November 1941?
THE PRESIDENT: Now tell him what happened on that day. which took place, took place on 11 November 1941.
Q Herr Strauch, do you know anything about a Jeckeln action?
Q What happened during this Jeckeln operation?
A The following happened during this Jeckeln operation. The SS_Obergruppenfuehrer Jeckeln, who has now been condemned - what do you call it? Well, he was killed somewhere and there his wife was waiting for him and relatives and did not get any news and suddenly it was published in the paper that SS_Obergruppenfuehrer Jeckeln had died. And then he was dead, that's all.
THE PRESIDENT: Captain Carpenter and Dr. Bayer, will you please come to the bench.
(Captain Carpenter and Dr. Bayer conferred at the bench with the Tribunal)
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, up until a very short time ago you were thoroughly capable of intelligently carrying on conversations. There was no indication when you were in the courtroom the other time and since then up until a few days ago that you weren't thoroughly capable of comprehending question. Now we again ask you to pay attention to the question and use all yourmental forces to respond to the question and don't let your mind wander. We think with a little bit of will you can answer intelligently and respond factually to the questions which are put to you. Do you understand me?
THE PRESIDENT: Now, please try to answer your attorney and Dr. Gick will continue.
BY DR. GICK: called Jeckeln operation was.
A The Kuechler operation was very difficult. One day an operation was carried out, instigated by Jeckeln and he wanted all forces, he wanted to use all forces for this and we also were to participate. And at the time I think I said that Heydrich had given strict orders for a blockade, for restirictions, in Estonia, and on that evening - yes the evening when we said that it is impossible to carry out such an-to give such instructions. First of all it was against the Fuehrer and secondly other orders were received which were contrary. It is quite impossible and he did not want to reject this, to revoke it, and he did not want to give up his principles and we pointed out to him that it is impossible, quite impossible - that's nonesense - and he did not want to revoke this. He issued orders - the order is valid and will be carried out. And, now one day the famous order from Jeckeln came then and I simply got rid of the order. I ignored the order. I said simply for him to take back his order. He sent three or four officers - three officers - and I Sent the officers back and I told him that this was impossible that such an order could be carried out and I think my wife if she testified here as a witness she would know more. Well, in any case - it's funny how this looks. And then I have in this letter - I wrote a letter to him.
THE PRESIDENT: You wrote a letter to whom?
To whom did you write the letter? to Heydrich and I think it was Heydrich - to Heydrich.
THE PRESIDENT: Well why did you write a letter to Heydrich?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, what did this have to do with the Jeckeln action? Now you remember you were -
THE PRESIDENT: No the Jeckeln action.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, proceed. You were describing the Jeckeln action. Now direct your mind to that and stay on that particular action. refused to take part in this, for example, I know very well that Stahlecker -- Sal -- Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Stahlecker?
THE PRESIDENT: You mean one of your co*defendants?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, which one? Count him from the end, which one do you mean?
A The first, the second of the first. Not him, the third one.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, count him. You mean Sandberger? Well, count from the end, 1- 2- 3.
THE PRESIDENT: Well. that's Sandberger.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. All right, now what about Sandberger?
THE PRESIDENT: Well what did Sandberger have to do with this Jackeln action?
A He did not want to carry it our either. He also refused to Sandberger - rather did not refuse - refused to participate.
THE PRESIDENT: Well than who did carry out the action? time. We had some sort of tour i, for example had to carry out a tour - I don't know from Strauch, from Stahlecker. Stahlecker had, I believe, wanted to - did not want to do this -
THE PRESIDENT: Well, now Strauch, you began to tell us about the Jeckeln action and you spoke very well.