Q.Did they make any verbal protest, was there any shouting?
A.No.
Q.When they reached the ground my understanding is that then they were relieved of their money and valuables, is that correct?
A.As far as the people complied with the order to give up their valuables, yes, these things were collected, but they were not forced to give up anything.
Q.Was their outer clothing collected at this time, overcoats and shoes?
A.I know nothing about shoes, out coats were also taken away, overcoats.
Q.Was their suit or their outer clothing, besides clothing -- in other words, witness, were they stripped down to their underwear?
A.No, Mr. Prosecutor, no more than their overcoats or furs were taken away, otherwise nothing.
Q.Now long after they were relieved of their valuables and their outer clothing or their overcoats before they were ordered to the anti-tank ditch, how much time elapsed?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, this period of time was very brief, and I would say that it wasn't even five minutes.
Q.How were these gypsies placed in the tank-ditch, were they kneeling or were they standing or were they lying down?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, I have to draw your attention to an unfortunate phrase in the affidavit. There it also says, "in the anti-tank ditch", under No. 6. I must have overlooked this when I signed it. In any case, it isn't correct. The people that were to be shot were standing at the edge of this anti-tank ditch and were shot there.
Q.Did they face the execution squad or were they shot in the back?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, they were lined up with their faces turned away. During the execution which I witnessed myself it happened that some of the people to De shot on their own turned their faces towards the execution kommando and had themselves shot this way in a very courageous way.
Q.Mr. Schubert, I believe you testified that General Ohlendorf wanted these people executed in the most humane manner possible. I now ask you were mercy shots administered to those who were not killed instantly?
A.I did not witness, or I was not able to witness such a procedure. The execution which I saw, or during this execution I did not see that such mercy shots had to be fired. The persons were dead.
Q.Now, after these people were shot, did you walk over and view the anti-tank ditch, the bottom of the antitank ditch?
A.I saw this anti-tank ditch, yes.
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Walton, your question presupposes that as they were shot they fell into the ditch.
MR. WALTON:He said so, your Honor, they were shot on the edge.
THE PRESIDENT:On the edge, out develop then that they actually fell into the ditch.
MR. WALTON:I am sorry. I reached that conclusion.
Q. (By Mr. Walton). I believe you testified a few moments ago that these people were lined up on the edge of this anti-tank ditch and they were facing away from the execution squad. Some of them turned and were shot then. Now, where did the bodies fall after they were shot?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, these bodies dripped into this ditch.
Q.Now then, the question which I asked you was, did you ever view this anti-tank ditch or did you yourself ever stand and look down into the anti-tank ditch after these executions were performed?
A.In this case, yes, I did.
Q.Did you see whether or not any of the people lying there moved or seemed to be still alive?
A.No, Mr. Prosecutor, I didn't See that.
Q.It would have been apparent to you when you stood there on the edge of that ditch if someone had moved, would it not?
A.Oh, yes, certainly.
Q.Well, your inspection confirmed the fact to you that these people were dead in that ditch; everyone was killed outright; there was no one allowed to suffer, is that correct?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, I had no cause to believe that such a thing happened.
Q.Now, Mr. Schubert, whose task was it to bury these people?
A.I did not witness that procedure out according to what I heard about it, members of the execution kommando had to fill in this anti-tank ditch with earth after the execution.
Q.Now, let's go back to the money, valuables-
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Walton, while you are on that subject, before you proceed to the next one, would you find Out if anyone was assigned to determine that desth had been instantaneous, that the victims prior to being buried were actually dead?
MR. WALTON:Yes, sir.
Q. (By Mr. Walton). Mr. Schubert, did you know whether or not the staff phusician was present, Dr. Schnapwagner, was he present at this execution?
A.Not at my time, no. Whether he was there otherwise I cannot say.
QDo you know of your own knowledge whether any officer or enlisted man had the task to determine whether those people lying on the bottom of that ditch were dead?
AYes, Mr. Prosecutor, this was the job of the Officer in charge of the execution squad.
QThat was a lieutenant from the police company attached to Einsatzgruppe D?
AAmong others, yes, but there Were several officers, because there were several execution squads who relieved each other.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
QThat did this officer do to assure himself that the executees were dead, did he get down into the ditch or merely view from above?
AYour Honor, I did not see him get into the anti-tank ditch, but certainly he convinced himself whether these people were actually dead according to his conviction. It was only a matter of determining whether a person actually was not killed and thus was still moving in order to giv e him a coup de grace then.
QHow big was the ditch?
AThis anti-tank ditch was about two meters deep.
QFrom a distance of two meters it could be possible that a person was alive and yet seemed dead, wasn't it?
AYour Honor, according to human judgment and in view of the manner in which the execution was carried out, that is, it was fired from a relatively short distance of five to six meters, and thus the result could only be fatal; it was a matter of course for the officer that if the man who had shot had really hit the person to be executed, that person was really dead.
QDo you exclude the possibility that one might have aimed badly and as a result the victim received only a shock, he could have been knocked unconscious with the bullet but not yet actually be dead so that to the casual observer he would seem to be dead but in fact his heart was still beating?
AYour Honor, I cannot exclude such a possibility.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. WALTON:
QNow, Mr. Schubert, coming back to the point where the money and the valuables and the outer clothing were collected from these people, was an officer or an enlisted men in charge of this detail?
AThis operation too was under the command of the officer who supervised these matters at the place.
QDo you know his name?
ASturmbannfuehrer Schulz, yes.
QNow, you say this was in December, 1941. The weather was quite cold, wasn't it?
AMr. Prosecutor, in the Crimea it never really gets cold as far as our concept of cold is concerned, but I do recall that the temperature was a few degrees above zero at that time. (That is probably Centigrade.)
THE PRESIDENT:Just one more question please, on the matter of the execution. Did the executors aim at the head, was that the vital point, the back of the head, or at a point in the back that the bullet would penetrate through to the heart?
THE WITNESS:Your Honor, I merely saw that the people aimed at the head. Q (By Mr. Walton) Mr. Schubert, how soon after the execution did this property arrive in the headquarters of Einsatzgruppe D for transshipment to Berlin?
AThose objects which came to Einsatzgruppe D were exclusively valuables.
Certainly they got there on the same day, either they got to the Einsatzgruppe or they were delivered to the kommando and the kommando, as I said, was in the same building.
QDid you over see any of this property after it reached Einsatzgruppe D headquarters?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor, I merely know that the Einsatz gruppe sent these things on to Berlin.
QWho was the person responsible for receiving these valuables in the Einsatzgruppe D headquarters and for transshipment to Berlin?
AThat was the administrative officer in the staff of the Einsatzgruppe.
QHis name was Ulrich?
AYes, that is right.
QDo you know how long it remained in group headquarters before it was transshipped to Berlin, this money and these valuables?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor. As far as I know they only were with the group staff a short time, that is they were deposited there as a package ready to be sent off to Berlin.
QHow many guards were posted around the vicinity to keep away unauthorized persons out at the execution site?
AI can't really estimate that, but I would say that altogether approximately twenty-five to thirty people were used to block off the area.
QHow many roads passed within sig ht of this place, and by roads I mean Russian roads, which might be field paths, places were people walked and drove
AThis entire terrain, Mr. Prosecutor, was bordered on one side by the road from Simferopol to Karasubasar. That was really the only road. Beyond that there were same field paths which branched off and which had to be blocked off. The traffic was re-routed via another road quite a distance away from this place.
QDid you inspect all those guard posts, or rather did you visit these guard posts to see that these approaches were blocked off?
AI think that I actually did pass the last blockingoff guards. I don't think I missed any one of them.
QThey were carrying out their mission correctly, were they not?
AAs far as I think they carried out their orders, yes.
QWere some of those guards members of Einsatzgruppe Einsatzkommando llb?
AI cannot exclude this possibility, but I don't know with certainty. I don't remember the various individuals.
QI don't mean that, but they were not exclusively the police company?
ACertainly not, Mr. Prosecutor. There were also members of the field police which had been furnished by the Army.
QNow, Was Dr. Braune at the Site of this execution at any time you were there?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor.
QNow, to what place did you return when you left the site Of the execution?
AWhen I left the execution site itself and while on the way back to the building of the group staff I passed by a large number of guards that were blocking off the area before I actually returned to headquarters.
QDid you go all the way back to the loading site to see how near finished this action was?
AYes, I already said I again inspected this place shortly to see whether things had been completed there or if they hadn't, that things were carried out according to orders there.
QAll right. Then you left the execution Site and you proceeded past this road block on your way book to view once more the number of people still to be executed, still to be loaded on to trucks, was that your action?
AI wanted to convince myself once mere whether there were any persons left there to be loaded, and when I saw that there were some more I watched them for a short time in order to be certain that these matters were carried out as ordered.
QWhat I want is the answer to my question. You left the actual execution site, drove in your car by the roadblock, and then went on to the loading site again. That is the action you took after you saw these fifteen or twenty people shot?
AYes, Mr. Prosecutor.
QYes. Now then, Mr. Schubert, after you had determined that the loading was still going on properly, where did you go When you left the loading site for the second time?
AI than returned to the office.
QWas General Ohlendorf present in the office on your arrival?
ANo, when I arrived he was not there certainly not.
QWas Seibert there?
AHerr Seibert was not there at all. He was on furlough.
QHe hadn't come in as yet?
ANo, he only returned on the 24th of December, 1941.
QNow, how soon after your arrival back at headquarters did you report to General Ohlendorf?
AToday I no longer know how much time passed, but I think I can say with certainty that I saw him the day during the late afternoon and talked to him.
QNow, you reported what you had observed to General Ohlendorf orally, or did you make a written report?
AI told him only orally.
QDid you ever relate the events which you have just talked about or discuss the facts of this execution with Seibert on his return shortly after?
AThese incidents they way I have described them here I discussed with Herr Ohlendorf, yes. As far as Seibert is concerned I don't think I spoke to him about them not even after he returned.
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Walton, it is twelve-thirty. Would you want to suspend?
MR. WALTON:Yes.
DR. WISMANN:Dr. Wismann, assistant for Dr. Schwarz for the defendant Joost.
Your Honor, Mr. Barr of the interrogation branch has expressed the desire to have the defendant Joost excused this afternoon - or rather to interrogate the defendant Joost in the presence of the defense this afternoon. Therefore, I would ask the Tribunal to excuse the defendant Joost from this afternoon's session and to see to it that he be sent to Room 57 until three o'Clock.
THE PRESIDENT:In accordance with the request made, the defendant Joost will be excused from attendance in court this afternoon, and the proper authorities are directed to see to it that defendant Joost is taken to Room 57, to three o'clock this afternoon.
The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:45.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION ( The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 6 January 1948.
)
THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in Session.
Dr. ULMER (Attorney for the Defendant SIX):
Your Honor, so that the closing brief may be finished I had my client excused for this afternoon and I would like to him him excused as well for tomorrow in Romm 55
THE PRESIDENT:In room 55?
DR. ULMER:Tomorrow I would like to have the Defendant Six again so that in room number 55 I may talk about the closing brief with him.
THE PRESIDENT:I understood it was Room 57 in which these conferences were heard.
DR.ULMER: 57 is the entrance and 55 is the room where the discussions take place.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well. The Defendant Six will be excused from attendance in court tomorrow for the purpose indicated by his counsel.
HEINZ SCHUBERT --Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION--Continued BY MR. WALTON:
Q.Mr. Schubert, I was particularly interested in what you said during the morning session about the fact that you inspected, or, rather, you visited the loading site twice, and, if I remember your testimony on this point you stated that there was no disorder.
Also in answer to the President's question, if my memory is correct, you stated that these people at that time did not know the fate which was in store for them.
Am I correct so far?
A.May I have the last sentence again, please?
Q.Certainly. I believe you stated in answer to a question by the President of the T ribunal that one of the reasons in your opinion why there was no disorder was be cause these people who were being loaded on the trucks did not know at that time what their ultimate fate would be.
Am I correct in that?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, I replied to your question, whether during the loading an unrest or disorder occurred, because of these people and I replied to this, "no". The president asked me whether those people already knew at that time that they were going to be shot.
To this question I re plied "no" again, because at that time the people did not yet know the end.
I saw no disorder, therefore.
Q.Did these people hold any conversations with their guards on the trucks that you could see or the people who called the roll, or the German personnel who were standing around?
A.It certainly happened that various people talked through interpreters, yes.
Q.And no one of the German personnel told them at the loading site where they were going, did they?
A.Where they were going to be sent to, they were not told about, as far as I know.
Q.Now, was there any disorder that you could see when the trucks arrived at the execution site?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, in order to be quite correct here I should like to say, disorder in that sense that riots occurred, this never happened.
Of course, when the people arrived at the place of execution and were unloaded there, they were nervous.
Q.Was there any weeping and lamentation among the women and children?
A.During my time I saw neither women nor children, but concerning those men which I did see, I would like to say that among those men, there was a certain amount of unrest, because when they arrived there they could suspect what was going to happen, because they heard, doubtlessly, the firing by the execution squads, but no great unrest really came about, no real disorder.
I would like to say, in view of what happened there, I personally was surprised how calm it was.
It was almost too calm. It was frightening because it was so calm how these people not their fate.
Q.None of these men attempted to escape by leaping to the ground and running when they were unloaded, did they?
A.I did not see anything of the kind, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q.Now, was it known to you the reason why these people were being executed?
A.I did not know why the individuals were being ex ecuted.
It is possible that there were persons among them who, because of some special examination were being executed.
As for me, in general, however, I was certain of one thing, that this was an execution based on the Fuehrer Order.
Q.Did you ever see a written report on this total of 700 to 800 gypsy executions during the normal course of business which came from Kommando 11 B?
A.No, Mr, Prosecutor. I would like to point out something here, if I may.
Today you only talked about gypsies, I think.
In my affidavit I said, or, rather, Mr. Wartenberg worded it, "Russians and Jews who" -- originally it said "member of other nationalities."
This wording seemed rather general to me and I asked Mr. Wartenberg to replace by "Russians and Jews" but surely there were gypsies among them as well.
perhaps even the majority of them.
Q.Then the change should be instead of "gypsies", "Russians, Jews, and Gypsies"?
A.One could add there "gypsies". That would make it quite correct.
Q.Do you know whether or not this instance ever appeared in one of Seibert's reprts to Berlin?
A.I do not remember it and consider it quite impossible.
QWell, weren't executions reported to Berlin?
AIt was reported to Berlin about a certain number during a certain period.
QYes, but you misunderstood my question. Did you ever see a written report of this total of 700 to 800 Russians, Jews, and Gypsies?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor.
QAnd you don't know of your own knowledge whether this same total was included in one of Seibert's reports or not?
AI cannot say in which of the reports this number was contained. I cannot say that any more.
QNot in which report, but the fact of 700 to 800 was included in the total number of executions performed for the month of December, wasn't it?
ACertainly, I heard of some figure in which these 700 were contained. That is quite possible.
QNow, I believe in your direct testimony you stated that later that same day you met Dr. Braune in the building in which the Head_ quarters of Einsatzgruppe D was and also the Headquarters of Einsatzkommando 11B were.
AYes.
QDid you have any discussion with Dr. Braune about this matter?
AI do not remember any definite discussions, Mr. Prosecutor. I believe that I remember correctly that I saw Dr. Braune during a discussion with Mr. Ohlendorf.
QDid he make any comments on your report to General Ohlendorf?
ANo.
QHe listened to what you had to say, though?
AMr. Prosecutor, however hard I try, I cannot tell you whether Dr. Braune, when I described the events I had seen to Herr Ohlendorf, whether he was present then or whether I saw him after I had reported to Herr Ohlendorf. I cannot tell you that now.
QAfter you reported to Herr Ohlendorf what comment, if any, did he make?
ANothing much was said about this any more and there was nothing much to be said about it.
I think the attitude of my chief at the time showed me that he was quite satisfied with the manner of carrying out which he could personally convince himself of and as it was reported by me to him, inasfar as no objections could be raised.
These things were not discussed any further then.
QDid he tell you that you had done a good job?
AHe did not prasie me at all. Mr. Prosecutor. He did not tell , me anything else either, that he was satisfied with me.
Mr. Prosecutor.
but he did not reproach me either, nor did he have to reproach me.
QNow, Mr. Schubert, let's turn to Document Book III-D, on page 1, both in the German and the English, Exhibit 148.
Now I direct your partiu lar attention to paragraph 2 and the reference to you on page 2 of the German text.
Indicate when you have found your place.
AI have the document and figure 2 in front of me.
QNow, according to this and according to your own statement, your duties included the distribution of official mail when you received it, did they not?
AI believe, Mr. Prosecutor, you are referring to the explanation which starts "The former Obersturmfuhrer Heinz Schubert."
QThat is the sentence and the next sentence that follows it.
AThe next sentence, yes, those two sentences in the Affidavit of Herr Ohlendorf are the most correct from in which one could describe my tasks.
QNow I ask you, didn't your duties include the distribution of official mail when you received it?
A of course, yes.
QDid you open all official mail?
AI certainly cannot say, " all of it," Mr. Prosecutor, but I assume responsibility, of course, for the work in the office where these things were done and I assume the full responsibility for this.
QDid you glance through this official mail after you opened it to see what it contained so that you would know to what person it would have to be delivered for the necessary action?
AThis mail in general was given to the Chief of the Einsatzgruppe or, if he was absent, it was given to his deputy in the staff, Herr Seibert.
QDid Seibert receive any official mail other than pertaining to Department III matters?
AI would not like to limit it to the word in Office III only, because Herr Seibert was in charge of the entire reporting to the Army as well. I cannot limit this to his work as Chief III. Certainly. he also received other reports.
QNow, I believe you testified that, when General Ohlendorf was absent, this official mail went to the desk of Mr. Seibert for action. Did this mail include orders from the RSHA in Berlin?
AYes, in that case, it also included that mail.
QDid it also include orders from the 11th Army?
AYes.
QNow did Mr. Seibert over transmit these orders from either two sources to the kommandos?
AI know nothing about that, Mr. Prosecutor. I don't know any specific case.
QYou filed copies of the orders which went out of the office and according to this affidavit, which is now before you of General Ohlendorf, you took care of the registery so that I assume from this affidavit and from other facts you have testified to that you registered outgoing mail as well as incoming mail, am I not correct in that assumption?
AYes, Mr. Prosecutor.
QWell, how could you register outgoing mail without some description of at least a short or a sentence description of what the contents were and where it was going?
AMr. Prosecutor, the outgoing mail in the office was dealt with in the some manner as the incoming mail, which was entered in the mail diary in form ofa brief summary, but now after more than six years I am no longer able to remember any specific case.
QNo, I didn't ask you for a specific case. What I want to know is if when General Ohlendorf was away orders came in which went to the desk of Mr. Seibert, if Mr. Seibert took action or if it was necessary for him to transmit that order to a kommando, through the normal chain of command, wouldn't he forward those letters and wouldn't you register the outgoing mail forwarding those orders to the kommando?
DR.GAWLIK (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANTS NAUMAN AND SEIBERT): Your Honor, I,object to this question.
The witness has already answered to the question, that he does not know.
The witness has no sufficient knowledge on this.
Anything he might say now would be assumptions, or he would just gess.
If the witness does not know, he cannot answer this question.
THE PRESIDENT:Of course, and "I don't know answer" does not exclude inquiry and probing.
That is the purpose of cross-examination.
one could close the door on cross-examination by merely saying, "I don't know."
The cross-examiner has the right to quizz to determine if he merely does not know, so that a certain amount of latitude is permiss ible in order to ascertain whether the defendant's answer of ignorance is really based upon fact.
DR. GAWLIK:Yes, I realize that, Your Honor. In that case the prosecutor would have to tell the witness some facts or give him some evidence, but he is only repeating his question.
It is the same question he has already put and the witness has answered, "I don't know."
He would have to prove that he did know, in order to reply to this question.
THE PRESIDENT:That is what Mr. Walton is trying to do, I presume.
MR. WALTON:Your Honor, shall I refresh your memory. The answer that I got the first time I asked that question was that after six years he could remember no specific instances.
My following question was directed primarily at the practice, the way of doing business in that office.
I am not interested in knowing what these orders to these kommandos contained or the details of it. I merely asked this witness and I think I am entitled to an answer.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, put the specific question now and Dr. Gawlik will have the opportunity to object, Witness, please do not answer this question until you observe whether Dr. Gawlik wishes to interpose an objection.