QI don't know what the German word was but certainly for this one execution you were the personal representative of General Ohlendorf, that is true, isn't it?
AI didn't consider myself as such. I got an order from Mr. Ohlen dorf.
I carried out this order but I never was the personal representa tive of Herr Ohlendorf, not even in this case.
QNow, witness, I don't wish to argue with you but you remarked that you were the only person available in staff headquarters to attend this execution as General Ohlendorf's representative.
Now my next question was, certainly for this execution then you were his personal representa tive.
AI am sorry, but I cannot agree with you. I am of a different opinion.
I was not the representative of Ohlendorf the way you under stand it.
I was sent out to carry an order and I did so and I cannot explain it any other way.
Furthermore, and I would like to mention this too, the staff, the persons in the staff, was so small that actual ly there was no one else there who could have carried out this order.
That's why I got it and otherwise I wouldn't have gotten this order.
QWe will return to this question in a minute. Did you ever carry out any orders given to you by Seibert?
ACertainly I carried out things which Seibert requested me for.
QDid his requests or orders concern, ever concern, the general business of the group?
AI don't know what you mean - general business of the group. I can't quite comprehend it.
Do you mean the orderly room?
QNo. Did these orders ever affect these orders of Seibert ever affect the group as a whole?
ACertainly not the entire group. They could have only affected whatever was done in the group staff.
QDid they ever concern the day to day - the usual - business that happened every day in the staff?
AI don't know any such orders.
QDid any of Seibert's orders ever concern security questions?
ADo you mean executive measures or do you mean security of the office, or what?
QI mean the security -- Well, either one. Answer them both. Did they ever concern security measures of the office?
AThere were no such orders. I don't know of any such orders.
QDid they ever concern security questions that affected the whole Einsatzgruppe D?
AI don't know of any such orders either.
QDid they ever concern security questions of the group staff?
AI think that question was put once before. I cannot imagine anything by this and I don't know any such orders.
I don't know what I an to understand by them.
QThe answer then is you don't know of any such orders. Did they ever concern executive measures to be taken?
ANo.
QBut you do say that he gave you orders and instructions at different times?
AI said that certainly I carried out things which Seibert requested me to do.
QAll right. Now then let's turn to Document Book I, page 108 in the English text, 141 in the German text.
It is your affidavit again, Document NO-3055 and is Prosecution Exhibit 28. Will you indicate when you have found, if you desire to do so, this document in Document Book I.
AI have it here in front of me, yes.
QNow, according to your affidavit you left the group headquarters and went to the Gypsy quarters in Simferopol in obedience to an order of General Ohlendorf to be his official witness at this execution.
Is that right?
That's paragraph 4, Your Honors.
AMr. Prosecutor, I didn't leave Simferopol for this occasion. It says here I went into the Gypsy quarter of the city - that is within the city.
QWell, you misunderstood the question - you left the group headquarters for there?
AYes, I left the building of the group staff -
QDid you proceed first to the headquarters of the office of Kommando 11-B on the way to the Gypsy quarter?
ANo. I had no order to do so.
QYou proceeded directly to the Gypsy quarter of Simferopol from your own office, is that correct?
AYes, from the staff I went to the Gypsy quarter.
QHow far approximately was the Gypsy quarter of the city from your headquarters?
AAbout a five minute walk.
QWhen you got there, I believe you testified, that the first thing you saw was that German personnel were engaged in loading these people on trucks, is that correct?
AI had to inspect the way the trucks were loaded and the gather ing at this place. That is what I had to inspect. There was a roll call and then in certain intervals they were transported away from there by trucks. I was to supervise this incident.
QDid you get there in time?
AMay I say something more. It was translated "supervise". My whole struggle is to make that clear. I apologize, but it should be: "to look at". I was to look at it.
QIf you remember my question I asked you when you arrived at the loading site what was the first thing you saw - what was the first thing that caught your eye. Now you have answered that question and I accept your amendment that the first thing you saw was the roll call being taken, that is correct, is it not?
AThe first impression I saw was a large number of people collected there, that is the first thing I saw. Then there were some trucks there. There were guards and I also saw how people were loaded on trucks and how the trucks left.
QWere you there when the first truck was loaded with these people?
ANo.
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Walton, did I understand you to say that he said there was a roll call.
MR. WALTON:Your Honor, I suppose we must check back with the court stenographer.
THE PRESIDENT:Well in his enumeration now of the things which he saw the roll call was not mentioned. BY MR. WALTON:
QI will ask the question again. Was there a roll call taken of these people gathered at this loading site before they climbed on the trucks?
AI said that these people's names were read off. Well, that's a roll call. I don't know whether you call it such but it was a control which was carried out.
QNow the question I am interested in and I believe you answered it in the negative - were you there when the first truck was loaded? Did I understand you to say you were not?
AMr. Prosecutor, I knew that some transports had already left this place and what I saw was not the beginning of it. I came in the middle of it.
THE PRESIDENT:Witness, do you know who made up the list which was being read?
AI cannot say, Your Honor, I don't know. BY MR. WALTON:
QNow, Mr. Schubert, about how many German personnel were engaged in loading these people on these trucks?
AI estimate those German people at about 25 but perhaps this is too high but approximately 20.
QWas Dr. Braune there when you got there?
ANo, I didn't see Dr. Braune on that day at all, When I returned from this order to the Group Staff I saw Dr. Braune again because Kommando 11-B was in the same building with us.
QWhat was the name of the SS-Sturmbannfuehrer that you stated yesterday in your direct examination who was in charge of this operation?
AI spoke of a Sturmbannfuehrer and I meant Sturmbannfuehrer Schulz of Kommando 11-B.
QNow you also mentioned the fact that two Hauptsturmfuehrers, SS Hauptsturmfuehrers were present. What were their names if you know?
AMr. Prosecutor, I am not sure whether I wouldn't give a wrong name. I thought that one of these captains was Captain Gabel, commanding officer of the Police Company, but it is possible that I am wrong and that it might have been his successor, the name of whom I don't recall. I don't remember this fact so exactly that I could take it upon my conscience to say Gabel or someone else. Perhaps both of them were there but I cannot say with certainty.
QWell, can you remember who the other man was, the other Hauptsturmfuehrer?
AThe other captain was as far as I know the sub-Kommando leader of Kommando 10-A which had been in Simferopol from the beginning and later was subordinated to Kommando 11-B but unfortunately I cannot give you the name of this man. I don't remember.
QAnd did I understand you to say that these three officers were present at the loading site when you got there?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor -
QWell, answer the question - what other officer besides yourself was present during the loading phase while you were there?
AI remember exactly that officers were present, one first lieutenant of the police and there was another SS-first lieutenant and I think those were the two officers who were present at that place.
QNow, Mr. Schubert, was there an officer in charge of these enlisted men who were loading these people on the truck?
AThese were essentially members of the regular police company there, at that moment, in any case they were under command of the 1st lieutenant of the Police Company.
QYou mean the loading squad was under the command of a lieutenant of the Police Company?
AYes.
QNow approximately how many trucks were used to transport these people to the execution site?
AMr. Prosecutor, I cannot tell you exactly. I didn't see all the trucks at Once.
But I recall the fact that the Army furnished us with a large number of trucks for this operation and to the best of my recollection I would estimate them at 25.
QHow long did this loading phase take,that is, to get these 7 or g hundred people in the trucks and get them away from the loading site?
Approximately hour long, how much time did it take?
AMr. Prosecutor, I cannot tell you this from my own knowledge. I wasn't there during the entire time of the transportation.
I was only there for a short time and during that time only a few trucks left this place.
These vehicles were sent off in intervals. I can not say how long a time the entire loading process took.
I can merely say that in the early afternoon I passed this place once more and that it was almost completed by that time.
QYou say that they were loaded at intervals - about how long an interval between the arrival of a truck and the departure of a loaded truck?
AI cannot even answer that question. I merely saw trucks that left the place and I can't say whether a truck that had returned was carrying a load.
I can't really say.
QBut can you give us an approximation or an opinion of how long it took to call off the names of these people, enter the turck, and the truck toke off from the time it was empty until it was filled?
AI have no possibility of estimating. You can do it quickly Or you can do it slowly.
I don't know how long it takes until you have read a list of 25 names end load these 25 people on the truck and lot them go.
It all depends how the these things are carried out.
QWere these Gypsy transported in open trucks or closed trucks?
AAs far as I remember these were trucks which were covered with tarpallin, regular covered trucks.
QHow many guards were on each truck besides the driver?
AAside of the driver whom the Army had furnished with the truck there was an assistant driver.
This was customary in the Army and in the back of the truck there was at least one guard.
QWas he armed?
A yes, yes, he was armed.
QWhat arms did he carry?
ACertainly that varied. He might have carried a pistol, he might have carried a rifle or a machine pistol, but certainly it varied.
QDid these Gypsies enter these trucks Willingly?
AI don't think that they went there gladly in any case.
QI don't mean that - did these guards have to force them up the ramp and into the trucks or did the loading squad have to force them up the ramp and into the truck?
ANo, there was no cause to do so or to use force.
QThey walked up the ramp and into the body of the truck under their own power, in that right?
AWell, they were called up and they were told that they were to board the truck and they did so.
THE PRESIDENT:Did the Gypsies know at that time what was going to happen?
AI don't think so, Your Honor, at that point they didn't.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, when you remarked that they didn't do it gladly the natural assumption was that they knew what was in store for them.
ANo, Your Honor, their fate was not quite certain. It was uncertain and I meant to express this uncertainty.
They knew some change was to take place.
BY MR. WALTON: Witness, how long did you personally remain at this loading site in the Gypsy quarter?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
A.In any case I was not there longer than twenty minutes.
It was sufficient for me to stay there a short time in order to see how these things were carried out.
Q.Now, Mr. Schubert, you said when you first left Einsatzgruppe D headquarters you walked for five minutes down to the site of the execution, I am sorry, site of the loading.
A.I drove, Mr. Prosecutor, but I needed five minutes for that.
Q.Oh, a five-minute drive in an automobile?
A.Yes, yes.
Q.Well then, you probably have answered my next question.
I presume you went in your own car from the loading site to look at or observe what took place at the execution site.
You had your own transportation between these two Places, did you not?
A.I had a car of the office. One was assigned to me for that occasion.
I used it.
Q.Now, did your take the same route that the trucks took in your car when you went from the loading site to the execution site?
A.I cannot tell you definitely because I didn't escort any of the trucks, but I think I drove down the same road.
There was no other possibility.
Q.Do you know whether or not these people created any disorder on the journey from the loading site to the Execution site?
A.I know nothing about that, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q.On the arrival of the trucks at the execution site, who placed these people in the anti-tank ditch?
A.Those were members of this execution kommando who had been ordered to carry out the execution.
They were mem bers of the regular police and also members of the SS formation, SD, or state police men of Einsatzgruppe D.
Q.What was the rank of the man in charge of the execution kommando?
A.That was Sturmbannfuehrer Schulz.
Q.And it was at his command that these people Were placed in the anti-tank ditch, is that right?
A.Well, he certainly didn't order it again and again in every case, out he distributed the men under his command for definite jobs and these officers and men then carried out those jobs.
Q.Now, this execution squad, I believe you state in your affidavit, were armed with automatic weapons and rifles, is that right?
A.They were armed with rifles and partly With machine pistols, yes. I don't know whether I said in the affidavit - yes, yes, so it says here.
Q.Now, was each truckload of these gypsies executed on arrival?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, I myself saw only one such transport out I may assume that every preceding and further transport took place in the same way as the one that I Saw.
Q.Did you, on arrival at the execution site, get out of your car, walk over to the anti-tank ditch and look in it?
A.Later, out first of all I stopped at the road and saw something different which took place there, namely the way they were unloaded and the way the valuables were registered.
Q.We will come back to the valuables in just a moment. You stated that you saw these people unloaded. Was there any disorder among the truckload of people when they were ordered to get out of the truck at the execution site?
A.No.
Q.Did they make any verbal protest, was there any shouting?
A.No.
Q.When they reached the ground my understanding is that then they were relieved of their money and valuables, is that correct?
A.As far as the people complied with the order to give up their valuables, yes, these things were collected, but they were not forced to give up anything.
Q.Was their outer clothing collected at this time, overcoats and shoes?
A.I know nothing about shoes, out coats were also taken away, overcoats.
Q.Was their suit or their outer clothing, besides clothing -- in other words, witness, were they stripped down to their underwear?
A.No, Mr. Prosecutor, no more than their overcoats or furs were taken away, otherwise nothing.
Q.Now long after they were relieved of their valuables and their outer clothing or their overcoats before they were ordered to the anti-tank ditch, how much time elapsed?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, this period of time was very brief, and I would say that it wasn't even five minutes.
Q.How were these gypsies placed in the tank-ditch, were they kneeling or were they standing or were they lying down?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, I have to draw your attention to an unfortunate phrase in the affidavit. There it also says, "in the anti-tank ditch", under No. 6. I must have overlooked this when I signed it. In any case, it isn't correct. The people that were to be shot were standing at the edge of this anti-tank ditch and were shot there.
Q.Did they face the execution squad or were they shot in the back?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, they were lined up with their faces turned away. During the execution which I witnessed myself it happened that some of the people to De shot on their own turned their faces towards the execution kommando and had themselves shot this way in a very courageous way.
Q.Mr. Schubert, I believe you testified that General Ohlendorf wanted these people executed in the most humane manner possible. I now ask you were mercy shots administered to those who were not killed instantly?
A.I did not witness, or I was not able to witness such a procedure. The execution which I saw, or during this execution I did not see that such mercy shots had to be fired. The persons were dead.
Q.Now, after these people were shot, did you walk over and view the anti-tank ditch, the bottom of the antitank ditch?
A.I saw this anti-tank ditch, yes.
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Walton, your question presupposes that as they were shot they fell into the ditch.
MR. WALTON:He said so, your Honor, they were shot on the edge.
THE PRESIDENT:On the edge, out develop then that they actually fell into the ditch.
MR. WALTON:I am sorry. I reached that conclusion.
Q. (By Mr. Walton). I believe you testified a few moments ago that these people were lined up on the edge of this anti-tank ditch and they were facing away from the execution squad. Some of them turned and were shot then. Now, where did the bodies fall after they were shot?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, these bodies dripped into this ditch.
Q.Now then, the question which I asked you was, did you ever view this anti-tank ditch or did you yourself ever stand and look down into the anti-tank ditch after these executions were performed?
A.In this case, yes, I did.
Q.Did you see whether or not any of the people lying there moved or seemed to be still alive?
A.No, Mr. Prosecutor, I didn't See that.
Q.It would have been apparent to you when you stood there on the edge of that ditch if someone had moved, would it not?
A.Oh, yes, certainly.
Q.Well, your inspection confirmed the fact to you that these people were dead in that ditch; everyone was killed outright; there was no one allowed to suffer, is that correct?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, I had no cause to believe that such a thing happened.
Q.Now, Mr. Schubert, whose task was it to bury these people?
A.I did not witness that procedure out according to what I heard about it, members of the execution kommando had to fill in this anti-tank ditch with earth after the execution.
Q.Now, let's go back to the money, valuables-
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Walton, while you are on that subject, before you proceed to the next one, would you find Out if anyone was assigned to determine that desth had been instantaneous, that the victims prior to being buried were actually dead?
MR. WALTON:Yes, sir.
Q. (By Mr. Walton). Mr. Schubert, did you know whether or not the staff phusician was present, Dr. Schnapwagner, was he present at this execution?
A.Not at my time, no. Whether he was there otherwise I cannot say.
QDo you know of your own knowledge whether any officer or enlisted man had the task to determine whether those people lying on the bottom of that ditch were dead?
AYes, Mr. Prosecutor, this was the job of the Officer in charge of the execution squad.
QThat was a lieutenant from the police company attached to Einsatzgruppe D?
AAmong others, yes, but there Were several officers, because there were several execution squads who relieved each other.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
QThat did this officer do to assure himself that the executees were dead, did he get down into the ditch or merely view from above?
AYour Honor, I did not see him get into the anti-tank ditch, but certainly he convinced himself whether these people were actually dead according to his conviction. It was only a matter of determining whether a person actually was not killed and thus was still moving in order to giv e him a coup de grace then.
QHow big was the ditch?
AThis anti-tank ditch was about two meters deep.
QFrom a distance of two meters it could be possible that a person was alive and yet seemed dead, wasn't it?
AYour Honor, according to human judgment and in view of the manner in which the execution was carried out, that is, it was fired from a relatively short distance of five to six meters, and thus the result could only be fatal; it was a matter of course for the officer that if the man who had shot had really hit the person to be executed, that person was really dead.
QDo you exclude the possibility that one might have aimed badly and as a result the victim received only a shock, he could have been knocked unconscious with the bullet but not yet actually be dead so that to the casual observer he would seem to be dead but in fact his heart was still beating?
AYour Honor, I cannot exclude such a possibility.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. WALTON:
QNow, Mr. Schubert, coming back to the point where the money and the valuables and the outer clothing were collected from these people, was an officer or an enlisted men in charge of this detail?
AThis operation too was under the command of the officer who supervised these matters at the place.
QDo you know his name?
ASturmbannfuehrer Schulz, yes.
QNow, you say this was in December, 1941. The weather was quite cold, wasn't it?
AMr. Prosecutor, in the Crimea it never really gets cold as far as our concept of cold is concerned, but I do recall that the temperature was a few degrees above zero at that time. (That is probably Centigrade.)
THE PRESIDENT:Just one more question please, on the matter of the execution. Did the executors aim at the head, was that the vital point, the back of the head, or at a point in the back that the bullet would penetrate through to the heart?
THE WITNESS:Your Honor, I merely saw that the people aimed at the head. Q (By Mr. Walton) Mr. Schubert, how soon after the execution did this property arrive in the headquarters of Einsatzgruppe D for transshipment to Berlin?
AThose objects which came to Einsatzgruppe D were exclusively valuables.
Certainly they got there on the same day, either they got to the Einsatzgruppe or they were delivered to the kommando and the kommando, as I said, was in the same building.
QDid you over see any of this property after it reached Einsatzgruppe D headquarters?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor, I merely know that the Einsatz gruppe sent these things on to Berlin.
QWho was the person responsible for receiving these valuables in the Einsatzgruppe D headquarters and for transshipment to Berlin?
AThat was the administrative officer in the staff of the Einsatzgruppe.
QHis name was Ulrich?
AYes, that is right.
QDo you know how long it remained in group headquarters before it was transshipped to Berlin, this money and these valuables?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor. As far as I know they only were with the group staff a short time, that is they were deposited there as a package ready to be sent off to Berlin.
QHow many guards were posted around the vicinity to keep away unauthorized persons out at the execution site?
AI can't really estimate that, but I would say that altogether approximately twenty-five to thirty people were used to block off the area.
QHow many roads passed within sig ht of this place, and by roads I mean Russian roads, which might be field paths, places were people walked and drove
AThis entire terrain, Mr. Prosecutor, was bordered on one side by the road from Simferopol to Karasubasar. That was really the only road. Beyond that there were same field paths which branched off and which had to be blocked off. The traffic was re-routed via another road quite a distance away from this place.
QDid you inspect all those guard posts, or rather did you visit these guard posts to see that these approaches were blocked off?
AI think that I actually did pass the last blockingoff guards. I don't think I missed any one of them.
QThey were carrying out their mission correctly, were they not?
AAs far as I think they carried out their orders, yes.
QWere some of those guards members of Einsatzgruppe Einsatzkommando llb?
AI cannot exclude this possibility, but I don't know with certainty. I don't remember the various individuals.
QI don't mean that, but they were not exclusively the police company?
ACertainly not, Mr. Prosecutor. There were also members of the field police which had been furnished by the Army.
QNow, Was Dr. Braune at the Site of this execution at any time you were there?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor.
QNow, to what place did you return when you left the site Of the execution?
AWhen I left the execution site itself and while on the way back to the building of the group staff I passed by a large number of guards that were blocking off the area before I actually returned to headquarters.
QDid you go all the way back to the loading site to see how near finished this action was?
AYes, I already said I again inspected this place shortly to see whether things had been completed there or if they hadn't, that things were carried out according to orders there.
QAll right. Then you left the execution Site and you proceeded past this road block on your way book to view once more the number of people still to be executed, still to be loaded on to trucks, was that your action?
AI wanted to convince myself once mere whether there were any persons left there to be loaded, and when I saw that there were some more I watched them for a short time in order to be certain that these matters were carried out as ordered.
QWhat I want is the answer to my question. You left the actual execution site, drove in your car by the roadblock, and then went on to the loading site again. That is the action you took after you saw these fifteen or twenty people shot?
AYes, Mr. Prosecutor.
QYes. Now then, Mr. Schubert, after you had determined that the loading was still going on properly, where did you go When you left the loading site for the second time?
AI than returned to the office.
QWas General Ohlendorf present in the office on your arrival?
ANo, when I arrived he was not there certainly not.
QWas Seibert there?
AHerr Seibert was not there at all. He was on furlough.
QHe hadn't come in as yet?
ANo, he only returned on the 24th of December, 1941.
QNow, how soon after your arrival back at headquarters did you report to General Ohlendorf?
AToday I no longer know how much time passed, but I think I can say with certainty that I saw him the day during the late afternoon and talked to him.
QNow, you reported what you had observed to General Ohlendorf orally, or did you make a written report?
AI told him only orally.
QDid you ever relate the events which you have just talked about or discuss the facts of this execution with Seibert on his return shortly after?
AThese incidents they way I have described them here I discussed with Herr Ohlendorf, yes. As far as Seibert is concerned I don't think I spoke to him about them not even after he returned.
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Walton, it is twelve-thirty. Would you want to suspend?
MR. WALTON:Yes.
DR. WISMANN:Dr. Wismann, assistant for Dr. Schwarz for the defendant Joost.
Your Honor, Mr. Barr of the interrogation branch has expressed the desire to have the defendant Joost excused this afternoon - or rather to interrogate the defendant Joost in the presence of the defense this afternoon. Therefore, I would ask the Tribunal to excuse the defendant Joost from this afternoon's session and to see to it that he be sent to Room 57 until three o'Clock.