On 30 January the Sonderkommando could, after the Russian beachhead in Sudak had been eliminated, establish again a Teilkommando in Sudak. Besides, two further Teilkommandos were established with the assistance of men of the Einsatzkommando 12 for the purpose of combing out the northern Crimea.
A that is quite clear. Now, two further subcommandos--and this refers to 10 b--two further subcommandos of 10 b were assigned with the assistance of my man. If where were two subcommandos of 12, then all men of 12 were there, one would not have to add any more men from 12 to this. All this would be subcommandos of 12 then, but quite obviously these are two subcommandos of 10 b, where the men mentioned here, and this quite agrees with the time... The report in my opinion originates from the end of January or about that time.
PRESIDENT: Aren't we losing a lot of time here? You are not arguing that the whole Einsatzkommando 12 was there, just what the paragraph states, that men of his organization were there.
MR. WALTON: He denied in a previous answer that any of his men were ever in the northern Crimea.
PRESIDENT: Well, yes. Why go into this long discussion--I am not saying you, I am saying you are allowing the witness to do it, however, because you do not claim any more than what appears here, is that right?
MR. WALTON: I merely want to point out that northern Crimea is a large territory, and the men from Einsatzkommando 12 helped in clearing out that.
PRESIDENT: Well, that is what it says. Well, Witness, do you affirm that men of your commando assisted other Teilkommandos in the combing out of the northern Crimea?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, what happened in the Crimea, I did not know.
PRESIDENT: Well, just a minute please, you have read this to yourself and you have read it aloud.
Now the question is very simple, do you affirm that last sentence that men of your commando assisted two Teilkommandos in the combing cut of northern Crimea, Yes or No.?
THE WITNESS: Yes, but I want to add something.
PRESIDENT : You have already added plenty on that subject.
THE WITNESS: But these men were not under my command, I want to express that particularly.
PRESIDENT: You stated that a number of times, but they were men of your commando.
THE WITNESS: Yes, in the same manner as men of a battery are assigned to another unit and are subordinate to this other unit.
MR. WALTON: You have said already, the Tribunal is completely satisfied that that is the way you testify about this document. BY MR. WALTON: was claimed by Roumania you concerned yourself with tasks in connection with the problems of ethnic Germans in that territory, did you not? look after the German settlement and gave me the mission to do this because at this time this territory became Roumanian sovereign territory.
Q Well, the proper answer to my question was "Yes", there is no need to take 150 words just to say "Yes". Let's confine our answers to short, precise, factual answers. Now, was this the territory between the Bug and Dniester rivers where these ethnic Germans were located? assistance?
A Yes. I already indicated the task. and house furnishings?
as a place to live or furniture for a house in which they lived? cannot say what happened in detail during that time.
Q Now, let's go back. documents, as far as I remember, do not enable me to recollect this so clearly. Germans? left event earlier. It happened according to how the commandos of the ethnic German office came in and relieved my commandos, my detachments-Dueben and Pretzsch, you said that about two ways you actively inspected the duties of your commandowith the ethnic German groups? of your commando who was dealing for four months with ethnic Germans? of October, or somebody in your commando did, and you left Dueben in June? Now, I am asking you, during those four months did you ever receive reports from anyone who was dealing with the ethnic German problem?
A There must be a misunderstanding somewhere. I showed very clearly what I did; until the end of July I wasn't even in Russia, then I was in Tscharnomin as reserve until the end of August, and only then we marched into the ethnic German territory. That was the time of say six weeks, six to seven weeks.
Q All right, I will ask you the same question. about the six or seven weeks. Did you ever receive any reports from your commando or subunits of your commando who were directly dealing with the ethnic German problem?
A I myself did not. Hausmann would have received them, I think, and. I read many reports later on and read many reports at a later time, I found many of them here again in the documents.
Q. Well, from what you stated, about the time that you went to the hospital, certainly these six or seven weeks is part of the time that you were in active command of Einsatzkommando 12. You stated that you were at the hospital only three weeks during September, and now you state that your group dealt with this for six weeks or seven weeks. Certainly during part of this time you were in command of Einsatzkommando 12, and they dealt with ethnic German problems. Now, during the time that you were in active command, did you receive any reports from anyone in your commando about the ethnic German activities?
A. Well, may I explain the following here? After the various small detachments were stationed in their locations, in order to carry out their missions there, that is, to get the farms going again and so forth, there of course someone or other made reports to Hausmann. Hausmann will have made out a general report, a summary of all these, but after a certain time no further written reports were made. I assume so. Several reports were made and reports were made about events which had occurred in their territory.
PRESIDENT: Witness, please, why don't you answer the question? It was very simply this, did you receive any reports from the Teilkommandos or from others on the ethnic Germans? Now, you are telling us about reports, but you haven't answered the question whether you received any reports. Please direct yourself to that question immediately.
THE WITNESS: I don't think so--No.
PRESIDENT: All right. BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Now, I ask you to look at Document Book III D, page 16 of the English text, page 17 of the German, Document No. 4489, Prosecution's Exhibit 152. Will you indicate when you have read that?
A. Which paragraph, all the paragraphs on Einsatzgruppe D?
MR. WALTON: Have Your Honors found the place?
PRESIDENT: What page?
MR. WALTON: Page 16, in Document Book III D.
THE WITNESS: That is quite right.
PRESIDENT: All right, that isn't a long paragraph. Proceed. BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Now, Witness, it states that within the area of Einsatzgruppe D the greatest want was relieved by placing homes of Jews or furniture at the disposal, that is, of the ethnic Germans and by delivering children's beds and other necessary items. Did you ever make this or a similar report to Einsatzgruppe D?
A. No. I did not know anything about these events but I did hear about it. It says here, that children's beds and necessary items were brought in. Hausmann told me that he got repeatedly items from Nikolajew to distribute among the ethnic German people or from various villages. He asked mayors to go into Nikolajew, he said.
Q. Do you know if any other of the commandos of Einsatzgruppe D were engaged in handling the ethnic German problem besides Einsatzkommando 12?
A. I did not quite catch it. I just would like the sentence again, I did not catch the verb.
Q. Do you know whether or not any other commando in Einstazgruppe D besides Einsatzkommando 12 was engaged in dealint with the ethnic German problem?
A. Yes, as I had described, Einsatzkommando 10 A. The Einsatzkommando 10 A was stationed in this territory until my commando moved in, and the leader of Einsatzkommando 10 A himself had his headquarters near Speyer in the same location into which Hausmann moved with his headquarters, too.
Q. All right, let me ask you this question as between the Berg and Dniester rivers, this particular area on 4 October 1941 and a few days immediately preceding that date, where was Einsatzkommando 12?
A. A few days before 4 October in this territory, and some small detachments were already being relieved and were taken from Nikolajew.
Q. Do you know for a fact that Einsatz-or Sonderkommando 10 A was also in this territory at this particular time?
A. At that time, Einsatzkommando 10A was not there any more.
They had already moved out, but may I add that this is a summary report on the ethnic problem which in my opinion was made by the Einsatzgruppe during that time when all the ethnic German work had been concluded. The Einsatzgruppe obviously wanted to show to Berlin how the entire territory looks and what had been done in their territory until then. Such a report on the domestic sphere is not a report which refers to a certain date, but it just gives a general impression.
Q. That is exactly what I want. Now, what part did Einsatzkommando 12 contribute in the way of facts to this report? Did they engage in those activities?
A. In these activities which I find in the report is here, No.
Q. They never supplied ethnic Germans with furniture or homes to live in?
A. No. I know nothing about it.
Q. Well, then their settling of ethnic German problems was not concerned with the basic problem of the ethnic Germans, was it, that is, a place to live, with enough furniture in it for reasonable comfort--they had other tasks with the ethnic Germans, did they not?
A. The task which we carried out concerning ethnic Germans I have already explained in detail. It was the task of registration. We had to register them and to bring them together into one area so that we should know where Germans were living and then taking care of them and looking after their security.
Q. Your answer to my question was "No". That is all, there is no need to go into detail.
A. Yes, but if I say only "No", the possibility arises that you may draw a wrong conclusion.
PRESIDENT: The trouble with your question, Mr. Walton, was the first part of your question was very specific, namely, did his commando have anything to do with the basic comfort of the ethnic Germans, but then you tacked on an observation and he addressed himself to the observation rather th to the question. Now, let's put the question very directly, did your Einsatzkommando 12 interest itself at all in the basic living conditions of the ethnic Germans by seeing to it that they were supplied with habitation, with furniture, and other necessary equipment for a decent living?
THE WITNESS: Yes. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Well, then you were interested in seeing to it that they got furniture?
A. Your Honor, I did not take care of it, I know nothing about it but the commando who were stationed there would have taken care of it, Yes.
Q. Well, then, your commando was interested in that?
A. The commando was interested, Yes.
Q. And you were the leader of Einsatzkommando 12?
A. Except for the time when I was in the hospital, Yes.
PRESIDENT: Yes. Proceed Mr. Walton. BY MR. WALTON:
Q. When did you report to duty in the Reich Security main office?
A. I reported to the RSHA at the beginning of April 1942.
Q. Now, was this a normal or routine change of duty from frontline service to service in the homeland?
A. Well, it happened repeatedly that I myself tried to get away from the Einsatz, the assignment, but what they decided by my assignment, I did not know, of course.
Q. Well, was 10 months the usual service for the Eastern f ront for an Einsatzkommando?
A. I cannot answer that--that varied,
Q. All right, now let's consider your service record which is in Document Book III D, page 80 in the English, page 126 in the German. Now, did your service as commander of Einsatzkommando 12 have anything to do w ith your promotion?
A. Certainly not. Concerning the SS or SD promotions, I was only assilmilated to my promotion as an official. The SS promotion often was behind, from two to eight months behind the promotion as official.
Q. As a matter of information, right opposite that promotion it has in my Document Book a paragraph headed "Investigation Procedure", and under that, "Reason: Suspicion of Military Insubordination and Violation of Official Duty in the Field". Now, yesterday you talked about something of this same nature. What I want to know is if this entry of "Investigation Procedure" occurred in 1942 or as you stated in 1944?
A . It was done in the year 1944. If this is a copy of form, the field is made very large for this entry. As it cannot be seen in this copy, a conclusions can be drawn from this. It is the last one, the last subject contained in my SD files, namely, the "Investigation Procedure", for I had not been promoted since '42. It says here at the end: promotion date and only for this '42 is mentioned, and not for carrying cut the investigations.
That is shown quite clearly here in this section, promotion only at '42. disobedience and violation of official duty in 1944.
MR. WALTON: You Your Honors please, the hours is 11 o'clock.
PRESIDENT: Very well. The Tribunal will be in recess for 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Durchholz for Schulz. tomorrow, Wednesday, all day since I want to discuss the trial brief with him, which I shall submit to the Tribunal shortly.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Schulz will be excused from attendance in court all day tomorrow in order that he may confer with his attorney.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Thank you. BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Witness, was your only service in the field prior to September, 1942, that of kommando leader of Einsatzkommando 12?
A. Y es, from June till March, beginning of March, 1942.
Q. What was your last day of command in Einsatzkommando 12?
A. I cannot tell you exactly, It was the time between the 5th and 15th of March.
Q. Do you consider your service with Einsatzgruppe D to have been satisfactory?
A. I really cannot say that. I really cannot designate it as such.
Q. Well, do you mean to tell us that in your opinion your service with Einsatzgruppe D was unsatisfactory?
A. Well, it was an assignment, and an order had been given which certainly could not satisfy anyone. I personally was glad that I got out of the Einsatz and that I got out in the form which accidentally happened.
Q. While you were in command of Einsatzkommando 12, did you ever hear of General Ohlendorf or anyone asking for your removal?
A. I didn't hear anything about this.
Q. All right. Were you ever reprimanded or tried for any offense you were commander of Einsatzkommando 12?
A. No, I never was.
Q. Then your service with Einsatzkommando 12 was satisfactory, was it not?
A. Within my assignment no reprimand could be brought up, but I know that during the proceeding instigated against me in 1944-
Q. No. No, I am only talking about your service with Einsatzgruppe D. We are not going into 1944.
A. Yes. Correct, and I only want to answer from that. In that time I first saw my reports, the reports about me, because they reprimanded me because of my bad achievements.
Q. Who made out these reports? General Ohlendorf?
A. All my predecessors made them out, and Herr Ohlendorf, of course, for the Einsatzgruppe.
Q. Did General Ohlendorf criticize you for your activities in Einsatzgruppe D?
A. It was not a good recommendation. It was just fair. There were few reprimands which were contained in this report. Otherwise they wouldn't have reproached me with them.
Q. You haven't answered my question. Did General Ohlendorf put a reprimand in there about your service with Einsatzgruppe D? He is shaking his head in the box. He says not.
A. I don't think that any conclusions have to be drawn from the gesture, which Herr Ohlendorf exhibits here in the dock.
Q. Well, how could your service have been more or less satisfactory unless you had killed Jews, Communists and Soviet Party functionaries in obedience to the Fuehrer Order?
A. Herr Ohlendorf knew himself in whit areas I was stationed and what he could expect of me. That, however, I was rather inactive could be seen from the report.
Q. Well, in September, 1942, do you suppose that you would have been promoted in rank unless you had had a satisfactory service up to that date?
A. When in September, 1942, I was made Obersturmbannfuehrer, (Lieutenant Colonel) is in assimilated rank, this came about automatically my promotion to Senior Government Councillor, and this promotion to Senior Government Councillor I received before H err Ohlendorf's report about me had reached my files.
Q. Yes, I don't doubt that, but do you suppose that you would have been in September, 1942, promoted to Senior Government Councillor unless your entire service to that point had been satisfactory?
A. I was promoted very late, and my promotion as can be seen from my record did not come about very quickly and was not very high. That was rather in automatic promotion.
has been most unsatisfactory in Einsatzgruppe D, or in the Gestapo Office prior to your service in Einsatzgruppe D; if any of your service had been unsatisfactory, you would have still got this promotion as Senior Government Counsellor? recommendations which do not weigh so heavily that I would be out of the question to be promoted within a certain time as on official. unsatisfactory remarks, your services generally were considered satisfactory, weren't they? had a recommendation from Dr. Best in 1939 in the files; that was a good recommendation.
Q All right. Let's come to the time when you were in service in the Reich Security Main Office after your return to Berlin. You have stated that you were designated to take over the staff command of the Security Police and SD, have you not?
A I did not make this statement in this form. Herr Wartenberg asked me: "You were to take over the staff-commando, weren't you?" I said: "First of all it was not e staff-commando. Secondly, I don't know whether I was to take it over." And, he said: "Yes, but I know that you were." I made so many corrections in this thing, about every first, second end third line you can see my initials, and this was so difficult to read that nobody could make head or tail of it, and some unclarity was left in it, which I didn't even basically object to, because the context is quite clear. a school in the suburbs of Berlin, end then you were called for duty in the Reich Security Main Office. What were you first told that you would have to do when you reported to the Reich Security Main Office?
That is all I want to know. that no decision had been arrived at as to what use I was to be put to. an inspector of some kind for a few months, or a few weeks, and after that, after you were relieved of this duty as an auditor or inspector. Then what were you assigned to do? them, Mr. Prosecutor. Please do not mind if I do so, I was not an inspector, I was an examiner in examinations; that was temporary job because they had nothing to do for me, and it was customary that they take practically experienced people to take part as an examiner, and they had to put questions in examinations. it. What did you next do? Chief IV, and report to him. I did so.
Q What did you do? What duties were you assigned to in Office IV?
Q What did the Department IV-D-V concern itself with? of the reports about partisans in the Eastern area of partisans. consolidation, and distribution of operational situation reports from USER, wasn't it? form. They had nothing to do with distribution, I merely got the reports which were competent for my department. They were sit distributed by the Main Office. four Einsatzgruppen?
Q Well, give us some approximate date? Every two weeks, every three weeks, every two months?
A Such report? Every day.
Q All right. How often would your committee of your commando staff meet for discussions and consolidation of these reports? from the East were discussed, but we read through those exceprts which had been written by various departments about the messages from the East, and of which these departments contributed, or made contributions. Every one came in there with the sheets, which had already been prepared as a contribution.
Q Do you know Dr. Knobloch, K-N-O-B-L-O-C-H?
Q Did you know Friedrich Rang, R-A-N-G?
Q Did you know Kurt Lindow, L-I-N-D-O-W?
Q Did you collaborate with him in these reports?
A Not with Lindow. During my time Lindow didn't have any idea about this. He sent reports, but how it was handled at my time Lindow didn't know. Rang was chief of a different group which had nothing to do with Russia. That was Rang, but he didn't know anything about these matters, I stayed with him in Nendorf, and, I stayed with him in the same cell when I was interrogated by the British, and he always said he knew nothing about these matters. After I was relieved from my office he may have participated in these editorial meetings, I don't know, but about whet happened during my time Rang didn't know anything, and he didn't work with me.
MR. WALTON: All right. At this time the Prosecution in refutation of his statement which has been made by the witness, that one Friedrich Rang knew nothing about his activity, and didn't attend any meetings of his commando-staff, I should like to offer into evidence Document NO-5153, which will become Prosecution Exhibit 189, and which is an affidavit of the witness Friedrich Rang, and respectfully submit a basis has been laid for the introduction of this affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Is the affiant alive?
MR. WALTON: Yes. Well, I'll say, I think, yes, he was the last time I heard from him, which was some time after he signed the affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I don't know whether Dr. Hoffmann was harboring a hope that he might have been dead.
MR. WALTON: I take it, it is not necessary for me to comment on that, Your Honor, I shall pass unto further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. BY MR. WALTON: of an Einsatzgruppe, or Einsatzcommando, was not suppelemented or altered in any way by your committee when they acted on these reports, was it?
Q I am not even asking you about the document. You can have that and read it when you leave. I am completely through with that document, The question which I asked you is about your general nature and not what Rang said about it, your general duties?
THE PRESIDENT: Better repeat the question, Mr. Walton.
MR. WALTON: Yes. BY MR. WALTON: of an Einsatzgruppe, or an Einsatzcommando, was this supplemented by Your committee, or altered in any way by your committee before it was issued?
A Yes, of course, he could do so. I shall give you an example, which might make these things very clear. Let's say a report coming from White Ruthenia, a report about the youth there. That the newly founded White Ruthenian Youth Movement was anti-Soviet and that the support of all youth, and another report about partisans which another department contributed said that this applied to the partisans....
Q I think you misunderstand the question. Let me rephrase the question?
AA mong the partisans there were many youths? Then that was a contradiction.
Q Let me rephrase the question. Would your committee alter such facts as the location of a specific Einsatzgruppe or a specific Einsatzcommando.If the commando reported that it was at Tarnopol, would you think the committee would alter that statement in the report? reports, is that correct, never supplemented, or never altered in any way?
AAt my time it was handled in the following manner:
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. Just a moment.
MR. WALTON: Just a moment.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, witness, all the examiner desires to know is whether you reported whet cane to you; you didn't change the geographical facts, did you?
THE WITNESS: No, I did not alter geographical facts.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, so you did not alter any facts?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that is all. BY MR. WALTON: the total number of executions during a reported period, would you?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I have expected this question, and that is why I tried to make this limitation, and to give this explanation. Those things in which I participated -
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. Just a moment. You say you anticipated the question but you certainly did not have your answer ready, because you are going into a long discussion now. What Mr. Walton is really putting to you is, did you falsify any report which came from the field, that is the whole story, did you falsify any report?
A I didn't. But he referred to executions....
A But he spoke of shooting and executions, which didn't occur in these reports on which I worked, those on the basis of Hitler's order, actions against Jews, that is. This is the decisive question for me. BY MR. WALTON: committee of the Commando-staff, weren't you?
A Mr. Prosecutor, to be a senior officer on such low level is a very simple thing, because the departments only delegated pretty low-ranking officers, and it was not very difficult for me to be the Obersturmfuehrer, the highest ranking officer. What I had to do I have already explained in my direct examination. It was merely technical -- purely a technical matter of proof-reading of this material, and the processing of it, to see to it that these contributions were stencilled and distributed. Discussions about measures did not take place in this connection.
Q All right. Were you in charge of the group which met to consider your share of the duties on these reports?
Q All right. Now, let's turn to Document Book II-D again. Page 20 of the English, page 25 of the German. Prosecution's Exhibit No. 86. This document, as you will see, gives the total of executions performed by Einsatzgruppe D to the date of reporting, on 12 December 1941, to be 54,696. Do you still state that the 94 Jews killed in the Harvesting Action, and a few Killed by Einsatzgruppe XII, when Hausmann was in command during your absence, are the only executions contributed to this total of Russian Nationals by Einsatzcommando XII?
committee as being done for racial reasons. It was a measure that I have already made clear. In this connection many reports were made out by me about many executions, that is our own executions, as well as foreign executions. I never got into such a situation as to carry out a purely Jewish action. is that what I understand you to say? necessary. I can not remember a figure but a usual number of measures was necessary in this period. share to this total of 54,696 Russian Nationals? the Fuehrer Order, and anything else, and this number must include my figures, of course. English, and page 27 of the German, the Document NO-2634, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 87, if you will turn to page 20 of the original Your Honor, that is page 28 in the book, under paragraph 4, headed "Jews". That is almost at the end of the document,witness. Do you make the same answer to the total of 75,881 persons?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I can not give you an answer in this connection. I an merely asking if you make the same answer to this, if Einsatzcommando XII, in the total number of shootings it contributed some of them, or its share of them? included again,that is obvious.
Q And one more document, witness. In the same Document Book, page 29 of the English, page 34 of the German, which is Document NO-3338, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 88 -- I am sorry, Your Honor, I think the page is wrong.