A. Even now I cannot decide upon that question. Wherever an emergency arises -
Q. All right. If you cannot decide upon it, why didn't you answer the question the first time I asked it by saying, "I don't know"? There is no need to go into a long explanation. Simply answer the question that is put to you. Witness, is it not a fact that in all territories which were under the control and influence of Germans the non-Jewish population was encouraged to turn over Jews to the Security Police for disposition?
A. I did not say anything of the kind.
Q. All right. From what you heard then, isn't it a fact that they were encouraged to turn over Jews to the Security Police for disposition?
A. I did not hear anything about that either.
Q. Well, let me call your attention to Document Book II-D, Page 20 of the English, Page 25 of the German. This is Document 2828, Prosecution's Exhibit 86. Now, the last paragraph of this quarter of this excerpt contains these words, "The population of the Crimea," and for a time your commando was in the Crimea, was it not?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, a stronger subkommando of mine was sent to the Crimea by me, during the first days of January, upon order of the Einsatzgruppe Chief.
Q. All right.
A. In some of the documents where you can see it for yourself, it says expressly that this subkommando was subordinated to a commando active in the Crimea. This subkommando which might have become active in the Crimea here was not subordinate to me. I could not give them orders, and for reasons of distance I could not have control over them at all.
Q. Now, let me ask you, was a formal order given you to send part of your commando to the Crimea and to put that part of your commando under the command of some other person?
A. The order was: so many men, N.C.O.'s and enlisted men - not even and officer went along -- are to be moved to Simferopol, who have to report to the Einsatzgruppe chief or report to some definite place. That is all I know. I never saw the men again. Please understand, this was a transfer of men to another unit.
Q. That is what I wanted to know, was it a formal transfer by order? You have answered the question. Let's come back to the other question now. This document says that the population of the Crimea is anti-Jewish and in some cases spontaneously bring Jews to the commandos to be liquidated. Did this ever happen to you in the territory which you occupied?
A. No, I never experienced that.
Q. All right. Let's come back once more to this document 2837 which we were discussing. Since the Rumanians knew the German policy to liquidate Eastern Jewry, were they not, as any good ally would, cooperating by seeing that all Jewry, including their own, were removed as a security threat by sending them to you for disposition?
A. Well, I did not catch all the question.
Q. Since the Rumanians knew about the German policy to liquidate Eastern Jewry, were they not, as any good ally would do, cooperating by seeing that all Jewry, including their own, were removed as a security threat by sending them to you for disposition, or to the territory occupied by the Germans?
A. No, I cannot pass a judgment on this. What I heard was only the following. Insome individual locations in the Rumanian territories excesses occurred as a result of which the people came over here. What the Rumanians thought as our allies, I don't know. I simply cannot tell you that. I never considered that problem.
Q. Well, do you agree with this report, the Rumanians had driven thousands of selected persons unfit for labor from Bessarabia and Bukovania into the German sphere of interest. Is that correct, about this incident?
A. This is not quite in line with my experiences. The large majority of those whom I led back across the bridge from that camp, were healthy strong men.They were mixed, like any other population, not selected men for any particular reason. At least I did not notice that.
Q. Let me ask you this, Witness, do you think these Jews would have wandered into the German territory if they hadn't been forced there by the Rumanians?
A. Certainly. That is quite possible.
Q. So they were driven into the German territory?
A. Well, I read it in the reports. I did not experience it. I do not know the events as they happened there. I only noticed them from the report here.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, we have two answers from the witness on this subject, and let's clear it up at once. BY THE PRESIDENT: volition, or were they driven over?
Q Well, you talked with them, What did they tell you?
A They did not talk about their former troubles and worries. They just wanted to go home. with these Jews, that you took them across the river and yet did not find out how they happened to be on your side of the river, whether they were driven over or came over voluntarily. That kind of statement is absolutely contrary to all human observation. The most natural thing in the world would be to ascertain why and how they not over there. Now, you answer that question. You have answered it two ways. How answer that question and tell us whether they came over voluntarily or were driven over.
Q Then they were driven over? case they were led across.
Q Well, were they compelled to cross?
CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. WALTON: into German territory?
A I should think Rumanian soldiers. I don't know the previous events in that territory.
Q I know you weren't in the territory but you at least inquired about these facts through people, through the interpreter, for you gave in direct examination full details of the event. Now, as a matter of fact, isn't it reasonable to suppose that your Rumanian allies sent you these Jews for disposition? reason. I don't know. Excesses occurred in some places.
Q You testified on this several times. We have gone further, since you are very reluctant to give all the facts of the incident. Did you personally negotiate with the Rumanian troop commander for the passage of these Jews over the Dnjestr River bridge?
Q Who negotiated with this officer? across the bridge not knowing what kind of reception they would set on the other side?
A Well, I saw the soldiers, and I just led then across. The soldiers simply let them loose on the other side. I told these soldiers: here comes a convoy. Then we led them across and the soldiers stood by and the people walked along the road, away from the bridge, somewhere into the country.
Q You never conferred with anyone; you simply took these Jews across that bridge and said, "Now no on back to your homes." Is that what was done?
A Well, I didn't know that any measures had been taken. I just assumed that they would find their way home, wherever they were to go.
Q Now, this report was written in Berlin, was it not? report?
A I don't know. They could have come from various places. Some of it might have come from Einsatzgruppe D, from Einsatzgruppe C, or, and this seems the most probable, that can have come from the Higher SS and police Leader who, together with a few units, according to the documents, was in this territory. facts from Einsatzgruppe C and put them under a section of their report which said "Einsatzgruppe D"? Einsatzgruppe D, yes, I think so. They have to accommodate it somewhere. Einsatzgruppe D headquarters directly?
Q Yes, and where did Einsatzgruppe D headquarters get those facts?
A What facts they used for this, I am afraid I can't tell you.
Q I didn't ask you that; I didn't ask you that. When activities of Einsatzkommando 12 were reported by Einsatzgruppe D, where did they get the facts about Einsatzkommando 12? group.
Q That is right. So then -gruppe D?
A I cannot tell you. I don't know how the report was made up. I consider this report, according to what I heard in the area of Einsatzgruppe D, I consider this quite improbable. reports, changing the figures from 19 murdered Jews to 91 murdered Jews, isn't it reasonable for us to suppose that this is a report of yours based on a hyperactive imagination which has improved since you have been in this courtroom?
nor the other fact is right either. I described how it happened with Hausmann. This was not exaggeration, and another figure was added, and here I went to emphasize again, I did not give a written report which dealt with this subject at all, but merely reported verbally very briefly, "I have carried out the mission, and thanks to the support of the German bridge commander, the matter went very easily and very quickly." That is all I had to do with this.
Q All right, Let's so to Document Book III-D again, page 72 of the English, page 118 of the German, which is Document NOKW-634, Prosecution's Exhibit 168. Now, on page 74 of the English text, your Honors, and on page 119 of the German text, this gives a detailed account of the capture and subsequent interrogation of a Russian paratrooper by the name of - I will have to swell it, I can't pronounce it - K-r-a-p-i-w-n-i-k-o-w. Was this report based on your report of the capture of this man?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor. This report occurred or is based on a report by the subkommando leader who was near Grigojevka, that is New Anantal, and was doing ethnic German work. command, was he not?
A He was under Hausmann's command because I said on 24 -of your command, he was subordinate to you. Now, this man that wrote this original report was a member of Einsatzkommando 12, was he not?
A Well, Mr. Prosecutor, you draw wrong conclusions. When I was in the hospital the Einsatzgruppe Chief told me to transfer the command to somebody else. Then this man is the chief -
Q That is what I want to know. Why didn't you state you were in the hospital and temporarily relieved of command when this incident occurred?
A We have talked about that in detail. It seemed too boring to me to repeat that again.
Q Just a minute, just a minute. Witness, it makes no difference how many times you have talked about it in detail. You will now talk about it to me, and I shall conduct the cross-examination. Let's understand each-other. Now, answer this question. Since the man was caught behind the German lines in civilian clothes and armed, under the rules of warfare he had a right to be executed, or the Germans had the right of executing this man, did they not?
A Not at all. These parachutists are not to be mixed up with any agents, but they were soldiers, and if a soldier tries here to break through to his lines, well, he is lucky if he manages it. If he doesn't, he is treated like a prisoner, provided that the interrogation gives a satisfactory result. And he was treated like a prisoner, and never did the sub-kommando leader tell me that even one man was shot, and the Detachment Commander Beck never said one word that one of those men was ever shot. all eleven of these parachutists were made prisoners of war and were never executed?
A These POW's as far as I can judge, and as long as I was there, were never shot. They were in the custody of the Wehrmacht, and it was one of my official actions to look after this dispersed commando, how they were doing, and when I arrived there three or four days later, I found the conditions as I have described them here. I could not object to the attitude, and neither the Wehrmacht nor anyone ever told me that they were shot, but I still found prisoners, quite a number, who were being interrogated.
Q All right. Were you in command of Einsatzkommando 12 during January, 1942?
A In January, '42 , yes -
Q You were in active command of it, or at least half of it? Crimea. This was the second lot that went to the Crimea.
in the Crimea?
A I personally, Yes. Only I alone with my driver made an official trip in January to the Crimea. When I received the radio message to take care of winter supplies which had arrived late and to collect them with a recently consigned truck and I had to abandon this truck in which I travelled, after a short while.... is that what you said? Yes.
Q Well, that is what I wanted to know. Now, you have stated that in January 1942 your activity was hampered because your commando was split and because of extreme cold weather, have you not? 121 of the German, Document No. 3401, which is Prosecution's Exhibit 52. Now, I would like for you to turn to page 12 of the original, at the latter part of the document, and on page 115, Your Honors. This is a report of Einsatzgruppe D. report and indicate to me when you have finished reading it. Teilkommandos for the purpose of combing out the northern Crimea. What combing operation did you order your men to perform in northern Crimea?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I believe the sense is quite different to how you are trying to interpret it. Einsatzkommando 12 is never mentioned here. I believe the paragraph is so short that I would like to read it to understand it better. "In the time of reporting, Sonderkommando 10 b was in Feodosia, and they were able to resume its security police operations after the Russians were driven out.
On 30 January the Sonderkommando could, after the Russian beachhead in Sudak had been eliminated, establish again a Teilkommando in Sudak. Besides, two further Teilkommandos were established with the assistance of men of the Einsatzkommando 12 for the purpose of combing out the northern Crimea.
A that is quite clear. Now, two further subcommandos--and this refers to 10 b--two further subcommandos of 10 b were assigned with the assistance of my man. If where were two subcommandos of 12, then all men of 12 were there, one would not have to add any more men from 12 to this. All this would be subcommandos of 12 then, but quite obviously these are two subcommandos of 10 b, where the men mentioned here, and this quite agrees with the time... The report in my opinion originates from the end of January or about that time.
PRESIDENT: Aren't we losing a lot of time here? You are not arguing that the whole Einsatzkommando 12 was there, just what the paragraph states, that men of his organization were there.
MR. WALTON: He denied in a previous answer that any of his men were ever in the northern Crimea.
PRESIDENT: Well, yes. Why go into this long discussion--I am not saying you, I am saying you are allowing the witness to do it, however, because you do not claim any more than what appears here, is that right?
MR. WALTON: I merely want to point out that northern Crimea is a large territory, and the men from Einsatzkommando 12 helped in clearing out that.
PRESIDENT: Well, that is what it says. Well, Witness, do you affirm that men of your commando assisted other Teilkommandos in the combing out of the northern Crimea?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, what happened in the Crimea, I did not know.
PRESIDENT: Well, just a minute please, you have read this to yourself and you have read it aloud.
Now the question is very simple, do you affirm that last sentence that men of your commando assisted two Teilkommandos in the combing cut of northern Crimea, Yes or No.?
THE WITNESS: Yes, but I want to add something.
PRESIDENT : You have already added plenty on that subject.
THE WITNESS: But these men were not under my command, I want to express that particularly.
PRESIDENT: You stated that a number of times, but they were men of your commando.
THE WITNESS: Yes, in the same manner as men of a battery are assigned to another unit and are subordinate to this other unit.
MR. WALTON: You have said already, the Tribunal is completely satisfied that that is the way you testify about this document. BY MR. WALTON: was claimed by Roumania you concerned yourself with tasks in connection with the problems of ethnic Germans in that territory, did you not? look after the German settlement and gave me the mission to do this because at this time this territory became Roumanian sovereign territory.
Q Well, the proper answer to my question was "Yes", there is no need to take 150 words just to say "Yes". Let's confine our answers to short, precise, factual answers. Now, was this the territory between the Bug and Dniester rivers where these ethnic Germans were located? assistance?
A Yes. I already indicated the task. and house furnishings?
as a place to live or furniture for a house in which they lived? cannot say what happened in detail during that time.
Q Now, let's go back. documents, as far as I remember, do not enable me to recollect this so clearly. Germans? left event earlier. It happened according to how the commandos of the ethnic German office came in and relieved my commandos, my detachments-Dueben and Pretzsch, you said that about two ways you actively inspected the duties of your commandowith the ethnic German groups? of your commando who was dealing for four months with ethnic Germans? of October, or somebody in your commando did, and you left Dueben in June? Now, I am asking you, during those four months did you ever receive reports from anyone who was dealing with the ethnic German problem?
A There must be a misunderstanding somewhere. I showed very clearly what I did; until the end of July I wasn't even in Russia, then I was in Tscharnomin as reserve until the end of August, and only then we marched into the ethnic German territory. That was the time of say six weeks, six to seven weeks.
Q All right, I will ask you the same question. about the six or seven weeks. Did you ever receive any reports from your commando or subunits of your commando who were directly dealing with the ethnic German problem?
A I myself did not. Hausmann would have received them, I think, and. I read many reports later on and read many reports at a later time, I found many of them here again in the documents.
Q. Well, from what you stated, about the time that you went to the hospital, certainly these six or seven weeks is part of the time that you were in active command of Einsatzkommando 12. You stated that you were at the hospital only three weeks during September, and now you state that your group dealt with this for six weeks or seven weeks. Certainly during part of this time you were in command of Einsatzkommando 12, and they dealt with ethnic German problems. Now, during the time that you were in active command, did you receive any reports from anyone in your commando about the ethnic German activities?
A. Well, may I explain the following here? After the various small detachments were stationed in their locations, in order to carry out their missions there, that is, to get the farms going again and so forth, there of course someone or other made reports to Hausmann. Hausmann will have made out a general report, a summary of all these, but after a certain time no further written reports were made. I assume so. Several reports were made and reports were made about events which had occurred in their territory.
PRESIDENT: Witness, please, why don't you answer the question? It was very simply this, did you receive any reports from the Teilkommandos or from others on the ethnic Germans? Now, you are telling us about reports, but you haven't answered the question whether you received any reports. Please direct yourself to that question immediately.
THE WITNESS: I don't think so--No.
PRESIDENT: All right. BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Now, I ask you to look at Document Book III D, page 16 of the English text, page 17 of the German, Document No. 4489, Prosecution's Exhibit 152. Will you indicate when you have read that?
A. Which paragraph, all the paragraphs on Einsatzgruppe D?
MR. WALTON: Have Your Honors found the place?
PRESIDENT: What page?
MR. WALTON: Page 16, in Document Book III D.
THE WITNESS: That is quite right.
PRESIDENT: All right, that isn't a long paragraph. Proceed. BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Now, Witness, it states that within the area of Einsatzgruppe D the greatest want was relieved by placing homes of Jews or furniture at the disposal, that is, of the ethnic Germans and by delivering children's beds and other necessary items. Did you ever make this or a similar report to Einsatzgruppe D?
A. No. I did not know anything about these events but I did hear about it. It says here, that children's beds and necessary items were brought in. Hausmann told me that he got repeatedly items from Nikolajew to distribute among the ethnic German people or from various villages. He asked mayors to go into Nikolajew, he said.
Q. Do you know if any other of the commandos of Einsatzgruppe D were engaged in handling the ethnic German problem besides Einsatzkommando 12?
A. I did not quite catch it. I just would like the sentence again, I did not catch the verb.
Q. Do you know whether or not any other commando in Einstazgruppe D besides Einsatzkommando 12 was engaged in dealint with the ethnic German problem?
A. Yes, as I had described, Einsatzkommando 10 A. The Einsatzkommando 10 A was stationed in this territory until my commando moved in, and the leader of Einsatzkommando 10 A himself had his headquarters near Speyer in the same location into which Hausmann moved with his headquarters, too.
Q. All right, let me ask you this question as between the Berg and Dniester rivers, this particular area on 4 October 1941 and a few days immediately preceding that date, where was Einsatzkommando 12?
A. A few days before 4 October in this territory, and some small detachments were already being relieved and were taken from Nikolajew.
Q. Do you know for a fact that Einsatz-or Sonderkommando 10 A was also in this territory at this particular time?
A. At that time, Einsatzkommando 10A was not there any more.
They had already moved out, but may I add that this is a summary report on the ethnic problem which in my opinion was made by the Einsatzgruppe during that time when all the ethnic German work had been concluded. The Einsatzgruppe obviously wanted to show to Berlin how the entire territory looks and what had been done in their territory until then. Such a report on the domestic sphere is not a report which refers to a certain date, but it just gives a general impression.
Q. That is exactly what I want. Now, what part did Einsatzkommando 12 contribute in the way of facts to this report? Did they engage in those activities?
A. In these activities which I find in the report is here, No.
Q. They never supplied ethnic Germans with furniture or homes to live in?
A. No. I know nothing about it.
Q. Well, then their settling of ethnic German problems was not concerned with the basic problem of the ethnic Germans, was it, that is, a place to live, with enough furniture in it for reasonable comfort--they had other tasks with the ethnic Germans, did they not?
A. The task which we carried out concerning ethnic Germans I have already explained in detail. It was the task of registration. We had to register them and to bring them together into one area so that we should know where Germans were living and then taking care of them and looking after their security.
Q. Your answer to my question was "No". That is all, there is no need to go into detail.
A. Yes, but if I say only "No", the possibility arises that you may draw a wrong conclusion.
PRESIDENT: The trouble with your question, Mr. Walton, was the first part of your question was very specific, namely, did his commando have anything to do with the basic comfort of the ethnic Germans, but then you tacked on an observation and he addressed himself to the observation rather th to the question. Now, let's put the question very directly, did your Einsatzkommando 12 interest itself at all in the basic living conditions of the ethnic Germans by seeing to it that they were supplied with habitation, with furniture, and other necessary equipment for a decent living?
THE WITNESS: Yes. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Well, then you were interested in seeing to it that they got furniture?
A. Your Honor, I did not take care of it, I know nothing about it but the commando who were stationed there would have taken care of it, Yes.
Q. Well, then, your commando was interested in that?
A. The commando was interested, Yes.
Q. And you were the leader of Einsatzkommando 12?
A. Except for the time when I was in the hospital, Yes.
PRESIDENT: Yes. Proceed Mr. Walton. BY MR. WALTON:
Q. When did you report to duty in the Reich Security main office?
A. I reported to the RSHA at the beginning of April 1942.
Q. Now, was this a normal or routine change of duty from frontline service to service in the homeland?
A. Well, it happened repeatedly that I myself tried to get away from the Einsatz, the assignment, but what they decided by my assignment, I did not know, of course.
Q. Well, was 10 months the usual service for the Eastern f ront for an Einsatzkommando?
A. I cannot answer that--that varied,
Q. All right, now let's consider your service record which is in Document Book III D, page 80 in the English, page 126 in the German. Now, did your service as commander of Einsatzkommando 12 have anything to do w ith your promotion?
A. Certainly not. Concerning the SS or SD promotions, I was only assilmilated to my promotion as an official. The SS promotion often was behind, from two to eight months behind the promotion as official.
Q. As a matter of information, right opposite that promotion it has in my Document Book a paragraph headed "Investigation Procedure", and under that, "Reason: Suspicion of Military Insubordination and Violation of Official Duty in the Field". Now, yesterday you talked about something of this same nature. What I want to know is if this entry of "Investigation Procedure" occurred in 1942 or as you stated in 1944?
A . It was done in the year 1944. If this is a copy of form, the field is made very large for this entry. As it cannot be seen in this copy, a conclusions can be drawn from this. It is the last one, the last subject contained in my SD files, namely, the "Investigation Procedure", for I had not been promoted since '42. It says here at the end: promotion date and only for this '42 is mentioned, and not for carrying cut the investigations.
That is shown quite clearly here in this section, promotion only at '42. disobedience and violation of official duty in 1944.
MR. WALTON: You Your Honors please, the hours is 11 o'clock.
PRESIDENT: Very well. The Tribunal will be in recess for 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Durchholz for Schulz. tomorrow, Wednesday, all day since I want to discuss the trial brief with him, which I shall submit to the Tribunal shortly.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Schulz will be excused from attendance in court all day tomorrow in order that he may confer with his attorney.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Thank you. BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Witness, was your only service in the field prior to September, 1942, that of kommando leader of Einsatzkommando 12?
A. Y es, from June till March, beginning of March, 1942.
Q. What was your last day of command in Einsatzkommando 12?
A. I cannot tell you exactly, It was the time between the 5th and 15th of March.
Q. Do you consider your service with Einsatzgruppe D to have been satisfactory?
A. I really cannot say that. I really cannot designate it as such.
Q. Well, do you mean to tell us that in your opinion your service with Einsatzgruppe D was unsatisfactory?
A. Well, it was an assignment, and an order had been given which certainly could not satisfy anyone. I personally was glad that I got out of the Einsatz and that I got out in the form which accidentally happened.
Q. While you were in command of Einsatzkommando 12, did you ever hear of General Ohlendorf or anyone asking for your removal?
A. I didn't hear anything about this.
Q. All right. Were you ever reprimanded or tried for any offense you were commander of Einsatzkommando 12?
A. No, I never was.
Q. Then your service with Einsatzkommando 12 was satisfactory, was it not?
A. Within my assignment no reprimand could be brought up, but I know that during the proceeding instigated against me in 1944-