AYes.
QThen you said there was no dealine.
AYes.
QWhen did you think that finally a deadline would be established; that from a certain day then the order had to go into effect?
AThe deadline itself according to our conditions was the matter of the Chief of the Einsatzgruppe or at least within Einsatzgruppe A; it might have been different with other groups.
QYes. When was the deadline reached in your case?
AStahlecker first of all ordered, or at least he gave a basic order that could not be contradicted at the end of September, referring to one part.
QVery well. So that then the Fuehrer Order was held in abeyance from the early part of June until the end of September.
ANo. Stahlecker knew that; it becomes quite evident from the reports that it was not absolutely carried out. I will also explain the reasons why.
QJust a moment, please; just a moment. You said the order did not have to go into effect immediately. Then I asked you when it did go into effect. You said about the end of September; is that right?
AStahlecker passed on, did not give us the order for all of us at the end of September.
QNow just a moment, please. Answer the question. We lose so much time because you pay no attention to the question. The order did not require you to put it into effect immediately, you tell us; is that correct?
AYes.
QAll right. Now, when did you finally get an order; when did the order finally go into effect so far as you were concerned?
AI do not remember the date.
QWell, you told us before the end of September; is that date incorrect?
AAt the end of September I am only referring to one part, but not totally, not for all of them.
QBut insofar as you were concerned, when were you ordered finally to exterminate Jews, as the Fuehrer Order indicated?
ADuring the course of autumn, 1941.
QWell, what month? The autumn has three months?
AFirst in September and once in October and once in November.
QWell, all right; the first of September was the first time that you finally were called upon to give some effect to this order; is that correct?
AYes.
QAll right; now, I am coming back to that original question, so far as that Fuehrer Order, as far as you were concerned, was held in abeyance during the months of June, July, August, so that this order was held up three months so far as you were concerned.
ANot insofar as my group chief was in agreement that it should not be carried out.
QThen it wasn't out into effect for three months.
AYes, that is correct.
THE PRESIDENT:It took me a long time to get that very simple question. Proceed, Mr. Glancy. BY MR. GLANCY:
QNow that we have ascertained that there was a culminating point as far as you are concerned with regard to the Fuehrer Order, you must have at all times been aware that at some time you would be called on to carry out this order; is that correct?
AI had to reckon with this possibility.
QIt was not a possibility, it was a certainty that a Hitler order must be obeyed; is that right?
AYes; there was no deadline though.
QWitness, let me caution you we have been taking much too much Time. I am sure that my question have been clear and concise, where there is only one interpretation.
We won't waste any time if you will be a little more responsive to my question; consider it and answer it as it is asked, please. You knew that as far as the Hitler order for the extermination of Jews, Gypsies and communists was concerned, that at some time you would be called upon to carry this out; is that correct?
AYes, I had to assume that.
QVery well. You have said that you were a commanding officer of Sonderkommando I.-A; is that right?
AYes.
QYou broke your commando up into five Amts divisions, or offices; is that correct?
AYes.
QYou had subordinates in each one of these offices; is that correct?
AYes.
QThat is Amt I, the personnel.
AYes.
Q II -
AAdministration.
QIII -- for SD work.
AYes.
QIV -- for executive or the Gestapo.
AState Police
QAnd V -- the KRIPO, or criminal police.
AYes.
QYou issued orders and expected them to be carried out?
AYes.
QIt was the original mission of the Einsatzgruppen and Sonderkommandos to exterminate Jews, Gypsies and communists; is that right?
AThat was one of the tasks yes.
QThat was their main task; that was the reason for their formation and organization -- the security of the army's rear area and the extermination of Jews, Gypsies and communists.
AThe securing of the army territory was the task of my commando.
QAnswer the question yes or no; then you may explain after you have given an answer. Was that not the reason for the formation, of the organization of the Einsatzgruppen, the extermination of Jews, Gypsies and communists because they were considered a threat to the security of the army?
ANo, in this formulation it is not correct because the Einsatzgruppen existed as organizations at the time when the Fuehrer Order had not been made known that their assignment would be that of a general securing of the rear army territory.
QAt some time you received the Fuehrer Order; is that right?
AYes.
QDid not that make it your prime, your first main task the extermination of the Jews, Gypsies and communists?
ANo.
QIn other words, Hitler in Germany issued orders and if you felt so inclined you obeyed them; otherwise you relegated them to a position of secondary importance.
ANo, that is not how it was. There were many cases in which we hesitated to carry out the orders.
QHesitancy is not what I am driving at here. You were to carry out the Hitler order as the Chief of Sonderkommando; is that right?
AYes.
QDid you not say that that order took effect in September of 1941?
AI said that, but I added that Stahlecker was agreed to a delay.
QYou said that the deadline was reached in September?
AIn September when I spoke to Stahlecker, it must have been the 2nd of September, he wasn't very well, and he gave me that order.
When hegave me that order he agreed to a delay on that date. At the end of September, in my absence, he repeated this order at my office, but he did not refer to the execution of the whole, but only of a part of it.
QThen, you followed -
AIt becomes evident from the reports.
QThis order in part?
AI wasn't there. Therefore, I couldn't obey it either in part or wholly.
QDid the members of your commando obey it?
AYes, in my absence, without my knowledge.
QDid you not foresee that this order must at some time be carried out whether you were present or not?
AI had to reckon on that possibility, yes.
Q.Did you realize this when you assumed command of Sonderkommando I-A?
A.Yes.
Q.Was it carried out in part by you or by your subordinates in Sonderkommando I-A?
A.By my subordinates, yes, without, my knowledge; in my absence.
Q.Were you in command of Sonderkommando I-A?
A.Yes.
Q.How many Jews were killed in September by members of your command?
A.The report says that there were four hundred forty; I do not know from my own knowledge.
Q.Did't you say that your subordinates reported to you as to this affair?
A.After I had returned.
Q.Did they report to you?
A.After I had returned from the Leningrad area, in the beginning of October they reported to me, yes.
Q.They reported to you?
A.Yes, after it had happened. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q.Did you reprimand them for doing it?
A.I couldn't reprimand. At least the next day...
Q. (Interposing) I didn't ask you whether you could; I asked you whether you did.
A.No.
Q.Did you talk about it at all?
A.Yes.
Q.What did you tell them?
A.I said that I regretted that this order which he knew was going to be delayed by me, that it had to be carried out at least in part.
Q.Did you tell him not to do it again?
A.I had no choice to do that because he was transferred the next day to Berlin.
Q.Well, during the conversation that you had with him, when you expressed your regret this had happened, did you say: Now, I don't want you to do this again.
A.Your Honor, that was not topical at the time because this man was about to be transferred to Berlin anyway.
Q.Witness, answer me: How old are you?
A.Thirty-six years.
Q.Very well. Now, a man thirty-six years of age ought to be able to understand a question and to reply to it directly.
A.Yes.
Q.Now, you talked with this sub-commando leader when you returned?
A.Yes.
Q.And you expressed your regret that he had executed these Jews in your absence.
A.Yes,
Q.How long was this conversation with him?
A.I don't remember that.
Q.Well, a matter of minutes?
A.I think it must have been longer.
Q.Well, about how long? An hour or two?
A.Approximately an hour; it could have been an hour; I have no recollection at the moment.
Q.Yes, all right. Now, all I asked you was that in this conversation which you had with him, did you or did you not say to him: I don't want you to do this again.
Don't tell me about where he went the next day.
A.No, I didn't tell him.
Q.What is the name of that Sonderkommando leader?
A.It wasn't the Sonderkommando leader; it was my deputy; his name was Carstens.
Q.Spell that, please.
A.C-a-r-s-t-e-n-s-.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well, proceed Mr. Glancy. I am sorry to have interrupted.
MR. GLANCY:Not at all, Sir. BY MR. GLANCY:
Q.Dr. Sandberger, where were these Jews located when they were executed in September?
A.The larger part was in the camp Harku; a few had been left outside in the sectors where they had been living and in the prisons.
Q.How were they collected in these concentration camps?
A.They were arrested by the Estonian home guard on my initiative.
Q.On your orders?
A.Yes, on my orders.
Q. When did this take place?
A. It must have been during the last days of September, based upon an order which I had already given them.
I had given it in fact on the 10th of September, as I already stated in my direct examination.
Q. You gave this order which collected these defenseless Jews in concentration camps?
A. Yes, I gave this order.
Q. As a result of this collection, these Jews were shot?
A.That was one of the primary conditions; the main condition of course was the order by Stahlecker.
Q.You didn't possibly understand my question. I said as a result of the collection of these Jews into central points, they were shot.
A.No, the shooting was the result of the order by Stahlecker. It is correct that of course they could not have been snot if they had not seen collected and arrested. The arrest, of course, I ordered.
Q.They were shot?
A.Yes.
Q.You collected these men in the camps?
A.Yes, I gave the order.
A.You knew that at some future time they could expect nothing out death?
A.I was hoping that Hitler would withdraw the order or change it.
Q.You knew that the probability, bordering on certainty, was that they would be shot after being collected?
A.I knew that there was the possibility, yes.
Q.In fact, almost a certainty; isn't that right?
A.It was probable.
A.N ow, at a later time you collected more Jews didn't you?
A.No, the order that Jews and Estonian should be arrested, that all Jews within time should be arrested, I ordered on the 10th of September approximately, and this order was carried out gradually during the months September and October. It was one order by myself which was issued on the 10th of September.
Q.Was there not another occasion on which, according to you, you were absent and more Jews were shot?
A.Yes,
Q.You collected these Jews according to the basic order, didn't you, the Hilter order?
A.Yes.
Q.And then they were shot; they were shot; isn't that right?
A.Yes.
A.By members of your command?
A.From Estonian men who were subordinated to * y Sonderkommando leaders; that is also myself then.
Q.Then, in fact, they were shot by members under your command?
A.Yes.
Q.Was not in fact........were not in fact the Estonian political police and the criminal police subordinated to you?
A.They were under my supreme command at least as far as the factual matters were concerned.
Q.If you needed aid in carrying out executions, you could so order these forces, couldn't you?
A.No, excuse me. It wasn't the Estonian police which carried out the executions, but it was the Estonian home guard.
Q.Was the Home Guard known as the Selbstschutz?
A.Did you ask me whether the Home Guard was known as Selbstschutz? We haven't translated that.
Q.Thank you, that is what I wanted to know. Wasn't the Selbstschutz or Home Guard under your command?
A.No, he was under the.......he was subordinated to the local commandatura of the army.
Q.Did they army; strike that. Were you aware of an order given to the Wehrmacht that they should not execute 14 N ov 47-M-DC-10-6-Sampson (Hildesheimer) Jews and Gypsies and communists but leave that to the forces of the SIPO and SD as that was their primary task?
ANo, such an order is not known to me.
QCan you estimate how many Jews were killed during your time of command?
ADuring the time that the Kommando was under my leadership there must have teen 950 Jews shot, or 960.
QThey were shot?
AYes.
QDo you actually think that these Jews were a security threat, as such, that they were really dangerous?
APart of the Jews were very dangerous for the security, but there were also Jews who individually and personally were not a concrete danger for the security.
QAs a class, they were not actually dangerous, were they?
AThe Fuehrer Order said that they must be regarded as a danger by the Reich leadership and that therefore this order had been given.
QThen, as a result of the Fuehrer Order these Jews were shot?
AYes.
QYou concurred and agreed with this order and issued orders for their collection and their final solution, their deaths?
ANo. I did not regard this order as satisfactory. I gave no order regarding their death or shooting. I have said so.
QYou knew the purpose of the Hitler Order, did you not?
AYes.
QYou ware in Riga on the 4th of July, 1941?
AYes, in the early morning hours. I left Riga at about nine o'clock in the morning.
QYou stated that Stahlecker told you that synagogues would he destroyed and Jews would he murdered on this day, is that right?
ANo, he did not tell me on the very day. He told me later. I explained that explicitly.
QDid you not just as explicitly state that in your conversation on that morning, that is, on the 4th of July, he told you of his intent to murder these Jews?
ANo. When we had this discussion, he said that in Estonia this should happen, in Estonia, and that he caused it himself; of the 4th of July in Riga, he only told me later on the occasion of a discussion on the 20th of July in Novaselia at Staff Headquarters and I said that yesterday.
QYou took a Teilkommando from Riga to Estonia, is that correct?
AA number of subkommandos, yes.
QHow many subkommandos did you leave in Riga?
AI did not leave a subkommando in Riga. It is possible that individual men were left there, because their vehicles were out of order. They had the order to join us. Parts of my kommandoes, these individual men, were there, but not a whole kommando.
QHow much later after the 4th of July did your men, whom you left in Riga, report to you that they had joined in an action against the Jews in Riga?
AThese men did not take part in this operation, this action, in Riga, otherwise they would have reported to me about it, but they did not. Therefore, they did not take part. Stahlecker himself told me that this action was run exclusively by the Latvian Auxiliary Police without the help and aid of the Germans and without his own initiative. It is possible that his interpreter took part in it.
QIt was supervised by the Einsatzgruppen, was it not?
AThat I don't know.
QDo you exclude the possibility the members of your command left in Riga took part in this action?
AYes, I exclude that possibility absolutely, because Stahlecker himself told me that this action had only been carried out by Latvians. Therefore, no man of my own kommando could have taken part in it, no interpreters, even, because I did not leave any interpreter in Riga.
QI was not quite so specific as to mention interpreters. Are you aware of the Einsatzgruppen Situation Reports?
AYes, I read a number of them.
QDid you read that in Riga members of Sonderkommando I-A, aided by the Latvian Police carried out an action against the Jews?
ANo, I did not read that.
QIn a few moments I'll come back to this and refresh your memory. On page 41 of the English, in Document Book II-A, in view of your basic mission, how do you interpret the following: "The following places will still be searched by our Security Police: Wenden, Dorpat, perhaps Pskow -Teilkommando of Sonderkommando I-A"?
AI interpreted it thus. Stahlecker put into this report that he gave his directives to me to the effect that subkommandos should be sent to these mentioned places to deal with tasks of Security Police.
QThe basic task of the Security Police was to search out, find, and execute Jews, Communists, and Gypsies, is that not right?
ANo, that was not the case in this kommando.
QYou again were an exception?
AThat was not the case in other kommandos either that during the very first days these measures were carried out. I am not the only exception here.
QIn Document Book I, page 26 -- I apologize, Your Honors, it is Document Book II-A, page 26. Sandberger, I call your attention to the list of figures and locations under the original page 16.
AMay I ask what document that is? I have forgotten the document number.
Q L-180.
AYes, and what page, did you say, what page of the original?
Q 16 of the original.
AThank you. In the German text there is only one sentence concerning the Lithuanian Auxiliary Police. I do not thirds that is what you mean.
QYou have Document L-180?
AYes.
QPage 16 of the original?
AYes.
QDo you see there Enclosure 8?
ANo, there is no Enclosure 8, but I may say, Mr. Prosecutor, I know the figures which should be in Enclosure 8, as for as they concern Estonia so that I can answer your question.
QIn these figures, there are Jews, 474 executed, Columnists, 684 executed total, 1,158.
AI must assume that these figures are correct.
QThis report is inclusive of actions up to October 15, 1941, is that correct?
ANo, no. Until the 25th of October.
Q 25th
ABut they are not operations of the Security Police exclusively, and I have tried to show that this figure 650 Communists contains also amongst other things the number of 405 Communists in Dorpat, according to the Report of Events 88, which was under the subordination of the Field Commanders and the responsibility of the Field Commanders. This figure is contained in this. I am myself concerned with the figure 650 Communists. According to my approximate estimate this is a number which is less than 100. That is my responsibility, because this included everything that happened in July and August by the Field Commander and the Estonia Home Guard, and the Communists; as far as the Jews are concerned -
QJust a moment. Let's be a little more responsive. As part of this figure some Communists were murdered under your command in Estonia is that right?
AYes, in my responsivility.
QNow, as to the figure of 474 Jews, are your entirely responsible or is some other agency responsible for part of these?
APersonally I am not responsible, because it was a matter of carrying out an order, the order by Stahlecker at the end of September, by my officer of operation.
My kommando is responsible. No, I did not carry it out.
QMembers of your command carried it out?
AMy deputy had passed on the order of Stahlecker to the Estonian Home Guard. The Estonian Home Guard carried this order out.
QYou were in command of Sonderkommando I-A, as of the 12th of October, 1941, were you not?
AYes.
QIn Document Book II-A, page 43 of the English, page 40 of the German.
AYes.
QYou will notice: "The following orders were therefore issued by us." This under the heading of "Sonderkommando I-A." "The arrest of all male Jews over 16; the arrest of all Jewesses fit for work between the ages of 16 and 60."
AYes.
Q "Who were utilized to work in the peat bogs."
AYes.
QDid you have Jews working in the peat bogs?
AYes, I ordered the arrest, yes.
QYou ordered that they would work in the peat bogs?
AYes.
QDid you also order the arrest of all Jews over 16?
AYes, that happened on the 10th of September.
QDid you order the collective billeting of female Jewish residents of Dorpat and vicinity in the synagogue and a tenement house in Dorpat?
AI ordered that the arrest should be carried out, but I did not order where they should be accommodated. I only found out later that they were put into the synagogue and I reproached them for that.
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Glancy, in reading Item 2, did you say, "Jews" or "Jewesses"?
MR.GLANCY: "Jewesses", Sir. BY MR. GLANCY:
QYou recognized this report as coming from you, do you not?
ANo, it did not come from myself. I was absent for three weeks. The report was made at the end of September, on the 28th of September, approximately, and I was south of Leningrad at that time and I was not in charge of any subkommandos in Estonia, or, at least, of parts of any subkommandos in Estonia.
QWere you known at this time as the Commanding Officer of Sonderkommando I-A?
AI was the commander of Kommando I-A, Yes.
QWere you relieved of the command of I-A?
ANo.
QThen you were responsible for those Teilkommandos in Estonia?
AStahlecker knew that I was south of Leningrad at the time and during this time I was not in charge personally of the Sonderkomnandos in Estonia. Consequently, I could not be held responsible for them.
QWere you ever relieved of the command of Sonderkommando I-A in October of '41?
ANo.
QDo you recognize this order?
AExcuse me, what order?
QThis report. The orders for the arrest of all Jews, the working of the Jewesses in the peat bogs, quartering of the female Jewish residents.
ANo. I just said that the accommodation of Jewesses in the synagogues or in the vicinity of the synagogues, I did not order. I did not approve of the housing in the vicinity of the synagogues, when I found out about it, but it is true that I gave the internment order for all Jews in Estonia, approximately on the 10th of September. This should have been carried out gradually.
QYou approved of the arrest of all the Jews, didn't you? You ordered it, in fact?
AYes, I ordered it.
QYou approved of 60 year old women working in peat bogs, didn't you?
AI was told that this was not heavy work. The suggestion was made by Estonian officials who knew these conditions and who were acquainted with them.
QYou approved of it?
AI did not investigate the matter, but I certainly did not disapprove of it.
QYou knew of it?
AYes.
QBut you got a sanctimonious streak and disapproved of billeting females in synagogues?
AYes.
QBut it was all right to work them to death in a peat bog?
AExcuse me, Mr. Prosecutor. The work in the peat bogs does not refer to Dorpat, but that concerns the camp Harku near Reval. Here in an old institution -
QJust a moment. Just a moment. I am not concerned with the location, merely with the truth and the facts. You said that you approved of the working of 60 year old women in peat bogs?
AIn the case of Reval, this was approved, yes. In the case of Dorpat this did not come up at all.
QAnd you laid further plans for the extension and expansion of concentration camps to accommodate more Jews?
AAll Estonian Jews were to be put into the Harpu camp, yes.
QYou knew what their fate must be as a result of this, didn't you?
ANo, I did not.
QDidn't you know the Hitler order?
AYes.
QDidn't it follow if they were collected, they'd be shot?
AYes, the possibility existed.
QThe certainty was there, wasn't it?
AI already said that there was a very strong probability.
QIn Document Book I, page 78a of the English, page -- I believe it is 108 of the German-
AMay I ask you what document it is?
QIt is Document NO-3279.
AYes, yes.
QI read here on page 5 of the original under "Communism" "With the exception of one, all leading Communist officials in Estonia have new been seized and rendered harmless." What is your interpretation of "rendering harmless" as far as it applies to the Communists?
AI have explained that Communists -
QWhat is your interpretation of this phrase "Rendering harmless"?
AIn this case, as leading Communists of top rank were concerned, they were probably executed.
QThis is dated the 14th of January, 1942?
AYes, that is the date of the Report of Events.
QYou were in command of Sonderkommando I-A on the 14th of January, 1942?
AYes, that is correct.
QThese Communists were rendered harmless or killed during this time, weren't they?
AOnly the leading officials are being described in this. The leading Communist functionaries were rendered harmless, yes.
QHow many leading officials were there?
ABy leading functionaries who are mentioned in this document and who, with the exception of one, were arrested, are meant definite people's Commissars and members of the Central Party of the Estonian Socialist Republic, as they were listed in an enclosure to the Document 1180; the number of the personalities to which your question referred may have been 6 or 7%.
QThe sum total of Communists seized runs to about 14,500, do you see that?
AYes, 14,500, yes.
QThat means 1,000 were shot?