THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session. BY THE PRESIDENT.
Q. Witness, is there anything in the reports on this trip of yours, this mission or yours to Leningrad? A. Did I understand you correctly, that you mean whether there is anything in this report about my stay in Leningrad?
Q. Yes.
A. No, that is not possible.
Q. Why not?
A. Because this report only covers the question of the Jews in Estonia within a report by Department IV.
Q. Well, just a moment, is there anything an all these reports........you had an opportunity to study them ........which talks about your mission to Leningrad?
A. Yes, there are several reports which are concerned with the reconnaissance in Leningrad, that is with the G-2 auxiliary service.
Q. Does it refer to you or to your kommando?
A. Part of this activity, or this G-2 auxiliary service for Leningrad, concerns me.
Q. Is there any reference in reports to you, Sandberger, or to your kommando, I-A, being on a mission to the south of Leningrad?
A. Yes.
Q. What document? Let us see it.
A. I can't tell you by heart, your Honor, I didn't write it down. If you permit I shall try to look for it by tomorrow.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, we were discussing Situation Report 111, namely, those points about the internment of Estonian Jews.
I now ask you from what parts of Operation Report 111 can you tell that in July 1941, that is, after your arrival in Estonia, you did not order at first an internment of all Estonian Jews?
A. From page 2 of this report it can be gathered first of all that no general internment of all Jews was at first ordered, for it says expressly here that internment measures were taken at Reval. Dorpat, Pernau, but there were nine other Estonian counties. Your Honor, this is document NO-3155, Operation Report 111, page 2. It says here expressing that internment took place in three different localities. Reval, Dorpat, and Pernau. These are only three counties. Outside of that there were nine other Estonian counties in which Jews also lived. That Jews lived in these other counties and how many can be gathered from Document L-180. On the next page of this operation report, that is on page 3, it is shown that some measures were ordered which would be completely incomprehensible if an internment would hare been ordered simultaneously, namely, forbidding of the public trade, forbidding school attendance, forbidding the use of theaters, and movie theaters, inns, etc.
Q. Why did you have to decide in favor of the internment of all Jews in September?
A. The pressure of Stahlecker became stronger. During a conference Stahlecker had asked me again around the first of September why the executions had not yet been carried out. I told him then repeatedly that the Home Guard, which was to carry out the executions, with his permission was still fully occupied with searching for Communists. Thus I accomplished that for the time being Stahlecker again consented with postponing the execution. But he again demanded categorically that the immediate internment be undertaken for reasons of political security.
Under these conditions I considered the internment as the lesser evil. Added to this was the fact, looked at from a Security Police point of view, that the underground movement which had been underway repeatedly was uncovered, whose leaders were leading Communists and NKVD officials, and further there was the realization of a strong implication of Estonian Jewry in Communism, especially within the NKVD.
Q. Did this internment correspond to your personal feeling?
A. No, the internment of all Jews did not correspond to my personal attitude, but it was unavoidable under these circumstances. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Did this internment correspond to your personal feeling?
A. No, the internment of all Jews did not correspond to my personal attitude, but it was unavoidable under these circumstances. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witnees, when did you join the NSDAP?
A. In November 1931.
Q. And when did you join the 88?
A. On the 1st of January 1936.
Q. When you joined the NSDAP in 1931, did you know the policy of the Nazi Party with regard to Jews?
A. I had no idea that measures of this kind.......
Q. Now, listen Witness, please answer my question. Did you, in 1931, knew the policy of the Nazi Party with regard to Jews?
A. I knew the points of the Party program.
Q. Very well, now what was that program?
A. These points I understood to mean that a Numerus Clausus would have to be introduced, that is, that the Jews in Germany would have to be restricted in their professions corresponding to the ratio in the population which they held, and that a sort of minority right would have to be created for them.
Q. Then in 1935 did you learn of the Nurnberg Laws?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did they provide for?
A. I cannot give the exact contents, your Honor.
Q. You knew they were deprived of citizenship?
A. I cannot remember, but this is possible.
Q. You don't know the Jews were deprived of German citizenship in 1935?
A. I cannot concretely remember this.
Q. Do you know what happened November 10, 1938?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened?
A. The burning of synagogues at the order of Goebbels and on the next day arrests by Heydrich, by the Gestapo.
Q. Yes, and what happened to the Jews in Germany?
A. Many Jews were arrested.
Q. Well, they were sent to concentration camps, weren't they?
A. A part of the Jews were sent to concentration camps. Yes, I heard about that.
Q. Well, generally the policy was to put them all in concentration camps, isn't that right?
A. I did not know anything about this at that time.
Q. Well, you know now, don't you?
A. Now, of course I know that Hitler in the year 1941 gave the well-known order, and in the year 1942 he gave the general order for the extermination of the Jews.
That I know now.
Q. But you know between 1935 and 1941 Jews were sent to concentration camps?
A. I only know this in connection with the 10th of November 1938.
Q. You know that in Germany and in practically all occupied countries; it happened in Holland; it happened in France; it happened in practically all the countries the Jews were herded into concentration camps, if not worse?
A. Your Honor, about the conditions in the occupied territories I had no knowledge.
Q. Well, did you knew that in Germany Jews were sent to concentration camps?
A. Only in connection with the 19th of November. Then I hoard about it.
Q. However, in 1939 or 1940, do you remember that Jews were being sent to concentration camps?
A. In the year 1939 and 1940 I merely saw on the street in Lodz that there the Jews had to wear the Star of David, and I later saw that they were put into a special part of the city. I did not see and I did not hear that any of those Jews were put into concentration camps.
Q. You knew that their liberty was restricted, they were herded, put into ghettos or in concentration camps. You knew generally that was the policy?
A. No, no, that that was the general policy I did not know.
Q. Where were you at this time?
A. Partly in Berlin, partly in......
Q. In what office?
A. Office I of the RSHA.
Q. And you did not know that Heydrich's and Himmler's policy was to put Jews in concentration camps?
A. No.
Q. In which office were you?
A. Office I of the RSHA, that is the personal office.
Q How long were you there?
Q Well, tell me the time?
Q Well, beginning from what time? you did not know that it was the policy of the Reich to put Jews in concentration camps? camps. camps?
A You mean to send them all into concentration camps? cerned Jews?
Q You didn't agree with the Party so far as it referred to Jews? the restriction as to numbers is concerned, not as far as taking the citizenship away from them.
Q You disagreed with the Nuenrberg Laws?
A I wasn't asked.
Q Well, I ask you now, did you disagree with the Nuernberg Laws? it, I would not have approved it.
Q All right. You took the oath to Hitler, didn't you?
Q Now, you believed in German law, didn't you?
answer it concretely. I didn't quite understand it.
Q Did you believe in German Law? As a lawyer that should not be a difficult question. it be the Reichstag, passes a law and it becomes then binding on all German citizens, did you feel yourself compelled to obey that law?
A But I didn't approve of many decrees. it referred to Jews? rights.
Q And when did you come to that conclusion?
Q In 1935? became a member of the SS, and you got an important office in the Reich Main Security Office although you did not agree with the Party program insofar as it referred to Jews: is that right? with whom you worked? these things.
Q You deceived your superiors, did you not?
Q They knew that you were in favor of the Jews?
A Your Honor, I didn't say that I favored the Jews.
approve of their loss of citizenship, the confiscation of property, the placing in concentration camps, and further deprivations? remained in the SS? these measures.
Q The SD had nothing to do with Jews?
Q Don't tell us about Mr. Ohlendorf. He takes care of himself and he has been far more forthright then you have been. Now, can you tell us -- what can you tell us that the SD had nothing to do with Jews?
A No, I don't mean to say that, but I wanted to say that the SD, for example, after the 10th of November, 1938, made out several detailed reports which were against these measures of Goebbels in an economic respect which. Mr. Ohlendorf has already mentioned, as well as in a general respect about the morale of the population. knew that one of the cardinal policies of the SS and of the Nazi Party was the persecution of the Jews? aim was the persecution of the Jews.
Q I didn't say the main aim. Let me ask you this question. Did you know that there were Jews in the concentration camps of Germany? ment camp in Estonia? terned because of an individual guilt.
Germany, did you approve of that?
Q So therefore you did not believe in German law? agreement.
Q I didn't say directives. You told us this morning or yesterday rather, that the Fuehrer Order, even though it violated international law, if it did, was German law and therefore had to be enforced. You paid your respects to law in that instance; is that right?
A I didn't get the question. of Jews may have violated International Law but whether it did or not, it was German Law and therefore should be enforced. Did you say that?
Q Did you say that here in Court?
Q All right. So therefore you approved of the Fuehrer Order insofar as it was German law, but you disapproved of the German law which put Jews into the concentration camps?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. von Stein, you take up two other questions.
DR. VON STEIN: Shall I continue with the same point or shell I continue with my direct examination?
THE PRESIDENT: You continue with your direct examination.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q Witness, did you have any legal misgivings about the internment? just given, because a Fuehrer Order existed. But -
THE PRESIDENT: Now, witness, you say that the reason you had no mis givings about putting Jews in the camp, the internment camp, was that there was a Fuehrer Order to that effect.
Well, there was a Fuehrer Order with regard to the execution of Jews. Why did you not have some misgiving about that, or why did you have misgivings about that?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I did not approve of either, neither of the execution nor of the internment of all Jews, but I had to decide in favor of the internment as the lesser evil because of the pressure of Stahlecker.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed.
A (Cont'd) Independent of the fact that I neither approved of the one or the other, according to my personal feelings, it was no question that this order in reference to the execution and of course in reference to an internment also justified this measure but there was a special reason here about the Jews in Estonia. In any Case I looked at it from that point of view. I had no possibility to examine whether it was completely in accordance with international law.
This point of view was the following. The Jews in Estonia were distinguished from the Estonians, the Russians and the Swedes and the Germans, not in reference to the race or to the religion, but the practical difference as it was politically acute in Estonia was the difference in their ethnic characteristics. That became evident in the legislation which the Estonian Free State permitted its minorities, namely, it permitted them cultural autonomy. This right of a cultural autonomy was granted by the Estonian Free State to the Russian minority, was a question of voluntariness on the part of these groups whether they made use of this or not. The Russian and Swedish minorities made no use of this. The German and the Jewish minorities did. Thereby the Jewish group had become an ethnic unit and thus it came about that within the Estonian Republic the Jews living in Estonia had their own cultural autonomy and therefore they were different in an ethnic respect from the remaining inhabitants of the country. Since this ethnic group
THE PRESIDENT: Well now, just a moment. What is all this leading up to? Now, you have established this ethnic group. Now what's this got to do with putting them into an internment camp. You said it was easy for you to put them into a camp and then you gave us this long explanation. How, bring those two points together.
THE WITNESS: Yes, the conclusion of this train of thought is the following: since this is a special ethnic group, and since this ethnic group had adopted a hostile attitude for the most part against Germany, as the Estonians had reported to us, it seemed justified to undertake such an internment and analogous to the same directives which of war.
THE PRESIDENT: Well then, because of their hostile attitude you found it comparatively easy to confine them to this internment comp. That's what it sums up to?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. Well then, it didn't break your heart too much to put them into an internment camp, did it?
A. I said before that I was against an internment, or rather, that I had personal misgivings about it without establishing individual guilt.
Q. Well now, you have given us two propositions. One, that it was with great regret and reluctance and against your own feelings, and with many misgivings, that you put them into an internment comp; that is one proposition. Then, you give us a long story on how because of their ethnic quality, becuase of the homogeneity of opposition to the German forces, that it was entirely justified to put them in camps; so, on one side your heart is broken; on the other side it is very gay. Now, if you can reconcile those two statements, please do so. If not, which one do you now give us an representing the facts?
A. Your Honor, in this statement is a matter of additional points of justification for these measures, the way it was discussed by me and my collaborators at the time, and the way it is described in an affidavit.
Q. Please answer the question. Were you satisfied to intern these Jews or not?
A. I had personal misgivings.
Q. Even though you know that they were enemies of the state?
A. In the case of those with whom it had been individually established.
Q. (interposing) Now, you put them all into one group. You went to great pains to tell us how you put them into one ethnic group.
A. Your Honor, I had no misgivings about those in whose cases it had been established concretely, but I had misgivings, not legal misgivings, personal misgivings with COURT II CASE IX the others.
Q. How many Jews did you put into that camp?
A. There were about eight to nine hundred.
Q. Did you examine each and every one of these eight to nine hundred to determine whether he was personally hostile to the Reich or not?
A. No.
Q. Then, how could you decide whether one should be confined or not, as against another.
A. Your Honor, perhaps I expressed myself mistakenly. I did not say that this was decided in each individual case,, but I said that all had to be interned, even those in whose cases no investigation had been made, and that is those cases I did not personally confirm it; nevertheless, it was unavoidable.
Q. Did you investigate the cases of any of these eight hundred to nine hundred Jews?
A. Yes.
Q. How many?
A. I cannot give you the number.
Q. Well, why can't you give us the number. You have given us a great deal of details on the Jews, why can't you tell us how many of the eight to nine hundred you examined.
A. I cannot remember this figure.
Q. Well, was it five hundred?
A. If I must give an estimate, it may be about eighty to one hundred.
Q. You examined eighty to one hundred; why didn't you examine the other eight hundred, or seven hundred? Do you think it was fair to examine only eighty to one hundred and not examine the rest? Is that your idea of justice?
A. For two reasons this did not happen, Your Honor.
Q. Why?
A. One reason is that Stahlecker had urgently ordered a COURT II CASE IX general internment, and I could not evade this.
Q. Why did you evade it for the eighty to one hundred you did examine?
A. There the investigations took place because in connection with other cases which were investigated, namely, Estonian communists, with whom these Jewish cases were connected; and, therefore, interrogations had to take place.
Q. Did you examine these eighty yourself?
A. I personally took no investigations myself.
Q. Then you didn't examine the case of any of these nine hundred?
A. I personally did not make any investigations; that was not my job.
Q. So you committed these eight hundred to nine hundred Jews without knowing whether they were enemies of the Reich or not; but only because they formed part of a racial group which had been condemned by Stahlecker and those above him; is that right?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: All right; proceed. BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, is it correct that you faced a choice at that time, a choice of either executing Jewry on the basis of the Fuehrer Order; or, to intern Jewry.
A. After the conferences I had with Stahlecker, and which I have described, an internment was no longer avoidable under any circumstances; the compulsion of the order was too strong.
Q. Witness, is it correct that first of all an order for the execution of the Jewry existed?
A. Yes, of course, I have already said that.
Q. Is it also correct that you chose only the internment COURT II CASE IX of the Jews?
A. Yes, I have said that too.
Q. How was it possible that you were able to delay these internment measures for so long?
A. When Stahlecker addressed me on this question, I repeatedly asked him to agree to a delay in the executions for the reasons which I have already given. He was in a state of unrest about this, but he finally consented to it; but he ordered that the internment was to be carried out immediately, and the executions as soon as possible.
Q. What reasons did you give Stahlecker in order to accomplish a delay?
A. First of all, during a conference in the second half of July, I asked him to agree to a delay-BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. When was this conversation with Stahlecker?
A. In the second half of July.
Q. I thought you told us it was July 4th at Riga. Was there another conversation?
A. That was one conversation, and the next one was around the 20th of July in the Staff Headquarters of Stahlecker.
Q. When did you first speak to Stahlecker when he arrived in Riga?
A. That must have been on the 1st of July.
Q. Then you spoke to him on July 4th again?
A. On the 1st of July we did not speak about the Jews in Estonia, but on the 4th of July we did speak about the Jews in Estonia, yes.
Q. Then the 1st of July he said nothing about the Jews.
A. No.
Q. On the 4th of July he did.
A. Yes.
Q. On the 20th he did.
A. Around the 20th of July, yes.
Q. Yes, Did he ever tell you in all these conversations anything like the following: It was intended from the very beginning to obtain the cooperation of the reliable population for the fight against vermin, that is mainly the Jews and communists? Did he refer to the Jews as vermin?
A. The word vernim was not used.
Q. I am quoting from his language. He never used that word to you?
A. No. The word Vermin in reference to Jews I never remembered that Stahlecker used this.
Q. Did he ever use a more tender term?
A. I cannot remember the expressions he used. I cannot remember that he spoke of them any differently than Jews.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed. BY DR. VON STEIN:
A. Through the fact that Stahlecker in this conference on the 20th of July agreed that the executions not be carried out by members of the German commandos, but by Estonian home guard volunteers, a first delay of the executions was achieved. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Do I understand you to say that Stahlecker agreed that you were not then to execute any Jews?
A. This conference had about the following content. I told him what the conditions were in Estonia, and that thus far -
Q. (Interposing) Please tell us what he said to you with regard to the Jews. Were you or were you not -
A. (Interposing) Your Honor, I think it is necessary in order to explain this answer that I say what I reported COURT II CASE IX to him and what I suggested to him.
Q. How long did you talk to him on July 20th?
A. I cannot say how long we discussed the Jewish question in this conference.
Q. How long was the conference?
A. About two hours.
Q. Very well. What did you tell him? And what did he say to you about the Jews, but give it to us briefly.
A. I told him the following. Thus far no Jews had been executed in Estonia. No pogroms had taken place. This was not possible in Estonia; I would ask him to agree that my commando members would not carry out any executions in Estonia, but that this would only happen on the part of volunteer members of the Estonian home guard. Stahlecker agreed to this. Thereupon I told him -
Q. (Interposing) Well all right; you know that he agreed to that.
A. Yes.
Q. Yes. All right; let us -- and he still had that thought when you dismissed him or he dismissed you after the two hour conference?
13 November 1947_A_MSD_Arminger (Lea)
Q Now, do you know that in his report he said, "In accordance with the basic orders received, however, the screening activities of the Security Police had to aim at a complete annihilation of the Jews"; was he telling you one thing and reporting something else? discussed with me and what he discussed with others and what he reported to Berlin.
Q Well, then, that is what I say. He told you one thing and reported another to Berlin.
Q You think that it wasn't his purpose to execute the Jews?
Q Then his language wasn't exaggerated. He did believe in the annihilation of the Jews? but he made an exception in your case. Was he especially fond of you?
Q So to that extent he made an exception in your favor?
Q Which ones?
A For example, in Lithuania and Latvia, even after Stahlecker's death, tens of thousands of Jews were still living.
Q Wait. You say he made these exceptions after he died? not have all Jews executed in his entire area.
Q Well, he might not have gotten around to it. That doesn't mean that he exempted them, just because there are some Jews living. It doesn't mean that out of the kindness of Stahlecker they are still alive, does it?
A I didn't get the question.
THE INTERPRETER: I will repeat it.
THE PRESIDENT: Don't bother repeating it.
Q (By the President) Did Stahlecker give every evidence of executing the Fuehrer Decree or not?
Q But he made an exception in your case?
A No. He only approved a delay. The Fuehrer -
Q He made an exception to the extent he didn't say to you, "You execute these Jews at once." He made that exception.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, Dr. Von Stein.
THE WITNESS: Shall I continue with the question
DR. VON STEIN (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT SANDBERGER). No, I will ask you another question. BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q What were your thoughts during these repeated delays? Did you keep on hoping that Hitler would revoke the order or limit it?
A Yes, I kept on hoping this? BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Did you ever hear any of Hitler's speeches?
Q And did you hear what he said about Jews? Jews. hope that he would change his views about the Jews? spoke about the Jews.
Q You knew something about Hitler's character, didn't you, that he was very adament and perservering once he made a decision?