PRESIDENT: I thought it had been announced. It is page 43. All right, proceed.
DR. VON STEIN: Yes, page 43.
MR. SANDBERGER: What was the question, please? BY DR. VON STEIN: The question was how many Jews approximately were in Estonia when the German army arrived there? mentioned that after the occupation of the country about 2,000 Jews might still have been in the country at the time. This estimate is incorrect. In reality less than 1,000 Jews were still living in Estonia after the occupation of the country. This is merely an estimate which was not confirmed later on. under what circumstances it was written? monthly report of the month of September to the Einsatzgruppe. It was sent off from Reval on 29 September. I was absent from Estonia at the time, namely, in the combat area of the 18th army near Leningrad for several weeks. The Department Chief IV of my commando had previously suddenly been recalled to Berlin. My deputy who was actually chief of Department III but also had to take care of Department IV simultaneously, did not know much about this subject because the Department Chief IV who had been dealing with the subject on his own written document obviously did not exist. Now suddenly with very short notice a report had been made to Einsatzgruppe A about the measures against Jews so far and simultaneously the Einsatzgruppe had approached us because nothing much had been done until then, and the deputy of the Department Chief IV on his part had to ask the Estonian police and the Estonian home guard to give him the documents about all that had been done until then. This explains that in this report many things are completely wrong, and many things are very unclear, and strong contradictions arise out of this report.
Estonia was started by you. Why did you do this--Stahlecker had ordered you to eliminate all Jews in Estonia immediately according to the Fuehrer decree? this order as far as possible hoping that it would be revoked or rescinded. On the other hand, I did not want to show any open disobedience. When I talked to Stahlecker at the end of July 1941 I asked him to agree to this, that executions in general would not be carried out by German commando members but by the volunteer Estonian guard, but I emphasized that this would mean a delay of executions because the home guard at first was busy dealing with the anti-communist measures.
Q What did Stahlecker say to this? he gave instructions that then at least all Jews in Estonia be interned for security reasons immediately. of events Number 111. It says here it was carried out immediately for the following groups, for all Jewish men over 16 years of age, and for all Jewish women of working age in Reval and vicinity, in Dorpat, and vicinity, and Pernau and vicinity, is that right?
No, that is not right in that form. This report is therefore wrong to that extent. It only applies concerning the case of Pernau. There it concerned internment of about one-hundred Jews in the middle of July 1941. In the District of Pernau there was a special situation; combat had been going on around the forest surrounding the city for some time. For their pro-Soviet attitude a great number of the Jewish population had become known in the meantime. Therefore, this internment of the Jews and Jewesses in Pernau, and the surrounding territory of about one-hundred persons was carried out about the middle of July.
Q And how about the case of Dorpat and Reval? Was internment of Jewish men and Jewish women carried out here immediately after the Germans arrived there? September. Consequently, they were mistaken in this report.
Q The following sentence in the report "Events No. 111" on page 3, does it apply which reads as follows: "For the Jews living in Reval and vicinity, at the moment in Harku, District of Reval, a camp is being prepared which after receiving the Jews from Reval shall be expanded to *---*tain the Jews from Estonia"?
A Yes, this sentence is correct. That is plan which I made at the *---*ginning of September. About the 10th of September I gave the order *---*at Jews be prepared for transfer to camps at Reval and Karku, and *---*ring the following week, in time, this be carried out at first con*---*erning the Reval people, later on the Dorpat people, and later on the *---*ernau people, and in time also concerning the Jews in the rest of the country, during the Fall of 1941.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, how do you explain that this statement is correct. You give unqualified approval of the correctness of the statement you just read. How did you explain this is correct, but the other statement about all male Jews over sixteen with the exception of physicians and appointed Jewish elders being executed by the Estonian Unit under Sonderkommando, how do you explain that is not correct. It is THE WITNESS:
May I ask Your Honor which sentence you mean, which I considered quite correct.
THE PRESIDENT: On page 3 there is the statement of male Jews -I am sorry. (interruption) Of male Jews over sixteen with the exception of physicians and appointed Jewish Elders." Do you find the place?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. I have not yet given an anation of this. If you wish I will comment as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: I thought your attorney asked you on that, you not asked him that?
DR. VON STEIN: Your Honor, the question will come up later.
THE PRESIDENT: I am sorry to proceed on that. Let's ask out that, as I was under the impression you had commented on that. *---*ll, allright, is that statement correct, or not correct?
THE WITNESS: It is correct that all male Jews over sixteen *---*ears of age except physicians and Jewish elders were executed by the Extonian homeguard unit under supervision of Sonderkommando 440, it so says here; that is right, it was done in the time between the 26th and 29th of September, without my knowledge while I was absent from Estonia in the combat area south of Leningrad at the immediate order of Stahlecker.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that the item you referred to in your affidavit? Do you explain that in your affidavit?
THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, I didn't mention this in the affidavit. This point is not contained in that affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, in your affidavit of 23 April, "On the basis of orders issued by Stahlecker I arrested all the Jews in Estonia. In October of November, 1941, Stahlecker ordered these people to be executed."
THE WITNESS: No, that is not this order but a later order. This affidavit refers to these Estonian Jews who remained alive after this first order of Stahlecker's had been carried out, there were fivehundred to six-hundred.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then there were two groups of Jews that were executed?
THE PRESIDENT: I am sorry I interrupted you, Dr. von Stein. You may continue. BY DR VON STEIN: sentence in the Einsatz Report 111, which I quoted, and it deals with the question whether at the time in Harku a camp was prepared for the Jews. You replied, that is right. I see it is in time about 10 September 1941, the order on this?
Q I now ask you; why could it never have been earlier. Your instruction, why was this not given at an earlier date than 10 September 1941? Reval at the end of August before we did not know anything about the existence of Camp Harku. In the following days, the beginning of September, I gave the order that a suitable site be found, and I was informed that a suitable camp existed here, and then I gave the order which I described here.
Q Witness, in this report of Events No. 111, concerning the issuance which showed that you tried not to carry out this order, doesn't that contradict the general attitude of Stahlecker? Did Stahlecker not reproach you about this? and not execution measures, which are only a small extent at least. On the basis of this report by Stahlecker, I was reprimanded severely by him in the middle of October. I told him how such a report had come about, namely, that I had been absent, he knew this, that the Department Chief had been absent, and that my deputy had not been informed, and that the expert had made this wrong report.
the time when this report was made you could not have been present in. *---*e he did not like it, and if I had been present such a report to I would have also objected very strongly would not have been made. *---* A statement made by Herr Jost on the witness stand tells here during the execution of your office he noticed that you personally making out reports always used a very clear wording. Order that of view could you give us the points in this report of Events No. which are so incorrect and full of inconsistencies that you *---*inly would not have written them, or would have approved them, or *---* have signed them? for a decision; not only do they talk about an execution of 440 but on the other hand statements are made which make no sense. *---* very quick execution was forcible for example, it is said that the *---*sh population was to be seized according to their capability of *---* On page 2 in the center, and on the following page 3 in the center, it is said they were prohibited from trading, taking part in trade, and so forth. All of those are instructions which were given, and it would have had no point if an execution would have been considered by me to be carried out very soon, or even been ordered by me. beyond doubt that the original report in which this report is based would have been submitted to you, if yen ha a been staying Reval at the time?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. von Stein, is that a statement by you, or is that a question?
DR. VON STEIN: The question, your Honor --the question, Your Honor.
is, whether the defendant Sandberger would have received this original report which would have been submitted to the defendant Sandberger, and in particular, would it have been submitted to him if he had been in Reval?
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Answer the question.
THE WITNESS: Even if I didn't see all reports of Department IV, owing to the great importance of this report, there is no doubt that I would have seen this report if I had been stationed in Reval.
THE PRESIDENT: We take it from that that you didn't see the report?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor, at the time, about from 12 September until 3 October 1942, I was certainly absent from Reval as Chief of the sub-commando in charge of the area south of Leningrad, and throughout this entire time my deputy acted quite independently with the transactions of the office. I only heard about this report later on when about 3 or 4 October I returned to Reval.
THE PRESIDENT: You had absented yourself from Estonia;
THE WITNESS: Yes, during the time I just mentioned.
THE PRESIDENT: What were you doing on this trip south of Leningrad?
THE WITNESS: I came at the time to my main job which was to be Kommando Chief with the 18th Army. My task with the 18th Army consisted from the very beginning of dealing with sub-kommandos in combat areas, and to be present there. From the middle of September onwards the combat area of the 18th Army was no longer in Estonia but to the south of Leningrad.
THE PRESIDENT: And were any Jews executed on this trip?
THE WITNESS: No, this was not my task. My task during that journey consisted of assisting the G-II Section, just as I had done in July and August in Estonia, as well, and as I have already described here.
THE PRESIDENT: Was it ever your task to execute Jews?
THE WITNESS: In my assignment as Einsatzgruppen Chief Stahlecker did give me the task but I never carried it out.
THE PRESIDENT: You were able to travel all through the Baltic countries, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, up into Russia, and you remained up there two years, and in all of that time you never executed a Jew?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, first of all, may I reply to the statement with an affirmative, but this part of conditions existed in such manner that after February 1942 Estonian Jews did not exist any more.
THE PRESIDENT: They had been all executed?
THE WITNESS: They had been executed at the order of Jeckeln in Pleskav.
THE PRESIDENT: In all this time you yourself never ordered the execution of a Jew?
THE WITNESS: No Jews except those who could have proved to have been active as Communists, who had been examined and had been sentenced.
THE PRESIDENT: And during all this time you were never courtmartialed, you never got into difficulties with your superiors?
THE WITNESS: I repeatedly had difficulties with my superios Stahlecker.
THE PRESIDENT: I mean any serious difficulties?
THE WITNESS: I didn't show any open disobedience towards Stahlecker.
THE PRESIDENT: Now what more open disobedience could you show than to refuse to obey a very clear order. He ordered you to start pograms and you didn't start the pogroms; he ordered you to eliminate Jews, you didn't eliminate Jews; he ordered you to execute Communist functionaries, you didn't do that. Now, what more open disobedience could have been manifested than that?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, concerning the question of pogroms, I told Stahlecker that it was not possible.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, you disobeyed. He wanted you to do it, and you didn't want to do it and you didn't do it.
That is disobedience, isn't it?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor. I said that Stahlecker didn't give this to me as an order to be enforced, but as a directive which should be followed as far as possible.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the difference between a directive and an order? A directive commands you to do certain things, doesn't it?
THE WITNESS: The difference in this case consist of the fact that an order is an absolute and compulsory order, a binding order.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that the reason you didn't obey the directive, because it was not compulsory?
THE WITNESS: Stahlecker told me to carry out the pogrom against the Jews.
THE PRESIDENT: Now please answer the question, why you didn't start the pogroms, and now you tell us it was not an order, but it was a directive, is that right?
THE WITNESS: No, I didn't use the word "order" but I used the word "directive", there is a difference there is a slight difference in the German, Your Honor, which, if possible, didn't absolutely have to be obeyed. I especially meant this difference.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, the reason you didn't obey a directive to carry out a pogrom, because it was not a direct order, is that right?
THE WITNESS: The reason was that I didn't want to enforce a pogrom.
THE PRESIDENT: Then you disobeyed an order, didn't you?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it was not an order in that sense.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Then it was not an order, and you didn't have to follow it at all, is that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Now the Fuehrer Order was an order, there is no question about that, is there?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And you disobeyed that?
THE WITNESS: The order didn't say that the Jews be executed within a certain period.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, that is the reason you were able to do it, you could defer it two years, and in that way you didn't disobey the order?
THE WITNESS: I wanted to delay and defer the execution of this order, and I did this.
THE PRESIDENT: Your explaination then for the reason you didn't obey the Fuehrer Order is that it didn't say to execute the Jews Immediately?
THE WITNESS: No, Your honor, the reason was--
THE PRESIDENT: There will be a recess for fifteen minutes.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session. BY THE PRESIDENT.
Q. Witness, is there anything in the reports on this trip of yours, this mission or yours to Leningrad? A. Did I understand you correctly, that you mean whether there is anything in this report about my stay in Leningrad?
Q. Yes.
A. No, that is not possible.
Q. Why not?
A. Because this report only covers the question of the Jews in Estonia within a report by Department IV.
Q. Well, just a moment, is there anything an all these reports........you had an opportunity to study them ........which talks about your mission to Leningrad?
A. Yes, there are several reports which are concerned with the reconnaissance in Leningrad, that is with the G-2 auxiliary service.
Q. Does it refer to you or to your kommando?
A. Part of this activity, or this G-2 auxiliary service for Leningrad, concerns me.
Q. Is there any reference in reports to you, Sandberger, or to your kommando, I-A, being on a mission to the south of Leningrad?
A. Yes.
Q. What document? Let us see it.
A. I can't tell you by heart, your Honor, I didn't write it down. If you permit I shall try to look for it by tomorrow.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, we were discussing Situation Report 111, namely, those points about the internment of Estonian Jews.
I now ask you from what parts of Operation Report 111 can you tell that in July 1941, that is, after your arrival in Estonia, you did not order at first an internment of all Estonian Jews?
A. From page 2 of this report it can be gathered first of all that no general internment of all Jews was at first ordered, for it says expressly here that internment measures were taken at Reval. Dorpat, Pernau, but there were nine other Estonian counties. Your Honor, this is document NO-3155, Operation Report 111, page 2. It says here expressing that internment took place in three different localities. Reval, Dorpat, and Pernau. These are only three counties. Outside of that there were nine other Estonian counties in which Jews also lived. That Jews lived in these other counties and how many can be gathered from Document L-180. On the next page of this operation report, that is on page 3, it is shown that some measures were ordered which would be completely incomprehensible if an internment would hare been ordered simultaneously, namely, forbidding of the public trade, forbidding school attendance, forbidding the use of theaters, and movie theaters, inns, etc.
Q. Why did you have to decide in favor of the internment of all Jews in September?
A. The pressure of Stahlecker became stronger. During a conference Stahlecker had asked me again around the first of September why the executions had not yet been carried out. I told him then repeatedly that the Home Guard, which was to carry out the executions, with his permission was still fully occupied with searching for Communists. Thus I accomplished that for the time being Stahlecker again consented with postponing the execution. But he again demanded categorically that the immediate internment be undertaken for reasons of political security.
Under these conditions I considered the internment as the lesser evil. Added to this was the fact, looked at from a Security Police point of view, that the underground movement which had been underway repeatedly was uncovered, whose leaders were leading Communists and NKVD officials, and further there was the realization of a strong implication of Estonian Jewry in Communism, especially within the NKVD.
Q. Did this internment correspond to your personal feeling?
A. No, the internment of all Jews did not correspond to my personal attitude, but it was unavoidable under these circumstances. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Did this internment correspond to your personal feeling?
A. No, the internment of all Jews did not correspond to my personal attitude, but it was unavoidable under these circumstances. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witnees, when did you join the NSDAP?
A. In November 1931.
Q. And when did you join the 88?
A. On the 1st of January 1936.
Q. When you joined the NSDAP in 1931, did you know the policy of the Nazi Party with regard to Jews?
A. I had no idea that measures of this kind.......
Q. Now, listen Witness, please answer my question. Did you, in 1931, knew the policy of the Nazi Party with regard to Jews?
A. I knew the points of the Party program.
Q. Very well, now what was that program?
A. These points I understood to mean that a Numerus Clausus would have to be introduced, that is, that the Jews in Germany would have to be restricted in their professions corresponding to the ratio in the population which they held, and that a sort of minority right would have to be created for them.
Q. Then in 1935 did you learn of the Nurnberg Laws?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did they provide for?
A. I cannot give the exact contents, your Honor.
Q. You knew they were deprived of citizenship?
A. I cannot remember, but this is possible.
Q. You don't know the Jews were deprived of German citizenship in 1935?
A. I cannot concretely remember this.
Q. Do you know what happened November 10, 1938?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened?
A. The burning of synagogues at the order of Goebbels and on the next day arrests by Heydrich, by the Gestapo.
Q. Yes, and what happened to the Jews in Germany?
A. Many Jews were arrested.
Q. Well, they were sent to concentration camps, weren't they?
A. A part of the Jews were sent to concentration camps. Yes, I heard about that.
Q. Well, generally the policy was to put them all in concentration camps, isn't that right?
A. I did not know anything about this at that time.
Q. Well, you know now, don't you?
A. Now, of course I know that Hitler in the year 1941 gave the well-known order, and in the year 1942 he gave the general order for the extermination of the Jews.
That I know now.
Q. But you know between 1935 and 1941 Jews were sent to concentration camps?
A. I only know this in connection with the 10th of November 1938.
Q. You know that in Germany and in practically all occupied countries; it happened in Holland; it happened in France; it happened in practically all the countries the Jews were herded into concentration camps, if not worse?
A. Your Honor, about the conditions in the occupied territories I had no knowledge.
Q. Well, did you knew that in Germany Jews were sent to concentration camps?
A. Only in connection with the 19th of November. Then I hoard about it.
Q. However, in 1939 or 1940, do you remember that Jews were being sent to concentration camps?
A. In the year 1939 and 1940 I merely saw on the street in Lodz that there the Jews had to wear the Star of David, and I later saw that they were put into a special part of the city. I did not see and I did not hear that any of those Jews were put into concentration camps.
Q. You knew that their liberty was restricted, they were herded, put into ghettos or in concentration camps. You knew generally that was the policy?
A. No, no, that that was the general policy I did not know.
Q. Where were you at this time?
A. Partly in Berlin, partly in......
Q. In what office?
A. Office I of the RSHA.
Q. And you did not know that Heydrich's and Himmler's policy was to put Jews in concentration camps?
A. No.
Q. In which office were you?
A. Office I of the RSHA, that is the personal office.
Q How long were you there?
Q Well, tell me the time?
Q Well, beginning from what time? you did not know that it was the policy of the Reich to put Jews in concentration camps? camps. camps?
A You mean to send them all into concentration camps? cerned Jews?
Q You didn't agree with the Party so far as it referred to Jews? the restriction as to numbers is concerned, not as far as taking the citizenship away from them.
Q You disagreed with the Nuenrberg Laws?
A I wasn't asked.
Q Well, I ask you now, did you disagree with the Nuernberg Laws? it, I would not have approved it.
Q All right. You took the oath to Hitler, didn't you?
Q Now, you believed in German law, didn't you?
answer it concretely. I didn't quite understand it.
Q Did you believe in German Law? As a lawyer that should not be a difficult question. it be the Reichstag, passes a law and it becomes then binding on all German citizens, did you feel yourself compelled to obey that law?
A But I didn't approve of many decrees. it referred to Jews? rights.
Q And when did you come to that conclusion?
Q In 1935? became a member of the SS, and you got an important office in the Reich Main Security Office although you did not agree with the Party program insofar as it referred to Jews: is that right? with whom you worked? these things.
Q You deceived your superiors, did you not?
Q They knew that you were in favor of the Jews?
A Your Honor, I didn't say that I favored the Jews.
approve of their loss of citizenship, the confiscation of property, the placing in concentration camps, and further deprivations? remained in the SS? these measures.
Q The SD had nothing to do with Jews?
Q Don't tell us about Mr. Ohlendorf. He takes care of himself and he has been far more forthright then you have been. Now, can you tell us -- what can you tell us that the SD had nothing to do with Jews?
A No, I don't mean to say that, but I wanted to say that the SD, for example, after the 10th of November, 1938, made out several detailed reports which were against these measures of Goebbels in an economic respect which. Mr. Ohlendorf has already mentioned, as well as in a general respect about the morale of the population. knew that one of the cardinal policies of the SS and of the Nazi Party was the persecution of the Jews? aim was the persecution of the Jews.
Q I didn't say the main aim. Let me ask you this question. Did you know that there were Jews in the concentration camps of Germany? ment camp in Estonia? terned because of an individual guilt.
Germany, did you approve of that?
Q So therefore you did not believe in German law? agreement.
Q I didn't say directives. You told us this morning or yesterday rather, that the Fuehrer Order, even though it violated international law, if it did, was German law and therefore had to be enforced. You paid your respects to law in that instance; is that right?
A I didn't get the question. of Jews may have violated International Law but whether it did or not, it was German Law and therefore should be enforced. Did you say that?
Q Did you say that here in Court?
Q All right. So therefore you approved of the Fuehrer Order insofar as it was German law, but you disapproved of the German law which put Jews into the concentration camps?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. von Stein, you take up two other questions.
DR. VON STEIN: Shall I continue with the same point or shell I continue with my direct examination?
THE PRESIDENT: You continue with your direct examination.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q Witness, did you have any legal misgivings about the internment? just given, because a Fuehrer Order existed. But -
THE PRESIDENT: Now, witness, you say that the reason you had no mis givings about putting Jews in the camp, the internment camp, was that there was a Fuehrer Order to that effect.