I did that, and later on I only found put that the production of this drug, with the Deutsche Heilmittel G.m.b.H, never did result in anything at all.
Q Witness, in that conversation between Pohl and Sievers in which you were present, was anything said at the time about how this drug had been discovered?
A No, I had no idea whatsoever what experiments preceeded that. I didn't even know Sievers. He was absolutely unknown to me, and I only saw him on this one occasion. Apparently it was only towards the end of the conference that I was called in; that is why I don't know anything about the contents of the conference. I don't even know if they spoke of experiments and research. However, I can assume that Pohl did speak with him about that.
In any case, all I had to do was to contact the Deutsche Heilmittel, GmbH, and to act as a liaison man between the Deutsche Heilmittel GMBH, and Sievers concerning questions of production.
Q Witness, I would appreciate it if you would answer my following question with either yes or no.
Did you at any time, anywhere, hear anything else about the medical experiments which are partly described in the documents contained here?
A No, I did not.
Q When you saw inmates at work, as you told us before, did you also observe that, prisoners of war, for instance, in Flossenburg, were being used?
A I observed nothing in that respect nor did I know anything about it. However, I cannot say that PW's were not among the people I saw working there. In any case, I didn't know them nor did I recognize them. All the people I saw were wearing prisoners' garb.
Q Witness, what did you hear about the transports which went to the East, transports which went to the extermination camp Auschwitz?
A I can actually state upon my oath that I actually never heard anything about it. All those things only became known to me after the collapse, only here in this court.
Q Witness, another document now. This is Document 1036, Document Book No. 3, Exhibit 66, page 82 of the German and page 80 of the English document books respectively.
That document suggests -- or at least gives the impression -- that you had something to do with concentration camps.
Will you please take a look at that document? How did you get to sign that document, which has nothing to do with auditing?
A I assume that this document was finally placed on my desk for my signature for the following reasons -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Let him read the document. It is so dim we cannot tell what is says.
DR. FRITSCH: Would you read the document?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I am reading it now. It refers to the conversion of compulsory labor camps at Cracow, Plassow, Lemberg, Lublin and Radom into concentration camps. With reference to your file note of the 18th of January, 1944, the Obergruppenfuehrer agrees with the organizational changes resulting from the conversion of ....
DR. FRITSCH: Excuse me. May I interrupt for just one minute? Your Honor, this document is actually written up in an impossible style. I think it is impossible for the interpreter to interpret it if it is submitted in this way. It also leaves certain doubts; that is the reason why I referred to this document.
THE PRESIDENT: The English printing is so bad that we can't even guess what it says.
DR. FRITSCH: Perhaps Mr. Robbins has a legible copy, your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: Is yours legible, Mr. Robbins?
Mr. Robbins has a better copy. Let him read the English translation.
MR. ROBBINS: "The Obergruppenfuehrer has approved the changes in organization of the German Equipment Works, DAW, resulting from the conversion of the above-mentioned labor camps into concentration camps. Thus the central administration for the Government-General of the German Equipment Works, DAW, can establish itself at Cracow, and SS-Obersturmfuehrer Mowinkel is to be appointed head of the central administration."
"Will you please keep me informed of the start and working progress of the new central administration?
"Chief, W,B....SS-Oberfuehrer."
THE PRESIDENT: Well, now, you interpret it there while you are there, Mr. Robbins. I mean, what is the significance of this? The Obergruppenfuehrer -- that is Pohl?
MR. ROBBINS: -- Has approved the changes resulting from the conversation, I take it, from the labor camps in the East into concentration camps, and Pohl is reporting that to the chief of Office W-4 -I mean Baier is reporting it.
THE PRESIDENT: That was at Cracow--or near Cracow-
MR. ROBBINS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: So Baier is reporting to Pohl?
MR. ROBBINS: To the Chief of Office W-4.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. --that Pohl has approved the change in status of the German Equipment Works from a labor camp to a concentration camp?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, your Honor. The subject of the letter states that the camps are located at Cracow, Plassow, and Lublin, and other places.
THE PRESIDENT: Why did you skip that other one?
MR. ROBBINS: I was afraid my pronunciation wouldn't be too good in the record.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, I believe that my fears have come true. This document is written in an impossible style in German, and it leaves certain doubts. That is the reason why I would like to ask the defendant two questions in this connection?
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q Witness, with this letter, is the order given that the labor camps are to be changed into concentration camps?
A No, not at all.
Q What is it that is stated then?
A Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl approves the establishment of a central administrative office of the DAW, GMBH, with its main office at Cracow. The basis for that is contained in the file note which is included that explains the thing. The text is extremely bad, and the title is also wrong.
Q Had the order already been given by any other agency before that the conversion was to be carried out?
A I don't know that, but I believe that it may have happened. The compulsory labor camps were probably changed in the meantime. This became known to me now. Himmler was the only man who could have done that.
Q Now, from this order which was issued before, the necessary consequences are drawn for enterprises?
A Yes, that is quite correct; and how the organization of that commercial enterprise was to low, and whether it was a commercial enterprise, can be seen from the file note at the end.
Q And how did you get to sign that document? How did you get to sign that thing?
A During his personal conferences, Opperbeck, who was in charge of W-4, probably submitted that report to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl because from this document it becomes evident that Pohl had given his written approval for that. Then Opperbeck went to the Legal Department in the staff and saw Dr. Hoffmann. According to the file note on the left-hand side of the letter the document was dealt with by Dr. Hoffmann. He dictated it, and he submitted the letter to me, apparently because Pohl had directly ordered, that it was not to be submitted to him once more.
That was the reason why his name is especially mentioned here. I signed that thing and it was passed on.
Q Witness, I would like to ask you a few questions about the OSTI enterprises. When did you first come across the ters OSTI, GMBH?
A I couldn't tell you that for certain today. In the document which deals with the unfinished work which was discussed this morning, the OSTI is not mentioned. Therefore, I probably found out about it and came across the name OSTI when I got used to the swing of affairs, later on.
Q Witness, from the Document Book No. 19 I shall show you Document No. 1271, Exhibit No. 491; it is on page 65 of the German and 64 of the English Document Book.
This deals with the report by the auditor, Hohann Sebastian Fischer, dated the 29th of September, 1944, that is to say, at a date when you were already a chief in Staff W. Was Fischer one of the auditors of your Auditing Department.
A.- No, Fischer was not an auditor in the Auditing Department. Fischer was a member of the DEST and his profession was an auditor.
Q.- When did you first see this report?
A.- I can't recall having seen that report during my time in Staff W. In any case, I say it here for the first time.
Q.- What did you know about the tasks of the Osti?
A.- The Osti as such was not part of the DWB.
Q.- The Osti was established during February of 1943. That was prior to your time in Staff W?
A.- Yes, that is correct.
Q.- What did you have to do with the Osti? Will you tell us about it?
A.- Towards the end of 1943, it was probably in November or December, I was informed about the liquidation that was to take place with the Osti.
Q.- Witness, we are now dealing with various decisions of liquidation, which were submitted. We don't have to deal with them in detail. Now did anything result with regard to the activity of the firm from those liquidation decisions?
A.- No, in those documents, two of them are contained. The second one is from the 1st of March, 1944. Do you want me to speak about it in brief terms?
Q.- In my opinion, this is not necessary. What did you have to do with the Osti. Why was it that Dr. Horn informed you on that liquidation question?
A.- Dr. Horn had been appointed the liquidator and later on he was to become the business manager in Office W-VII, and, during the liqui dation, certain legal questions arose in connection with him, for which no legal experts were at his disposal to deal with them.
You have already discussed such a document yesterday with the witness, Dr. Karoli. It is stated there at the end of the liquidation the books were to be placed at the disposal of the DWB. I want to add that the liquidation had been completed by the end of the war, and that the books of the Osti could not be found in the DWB, at least, not according to my knowledge.
Q.- Now, Witness, Dr. Horn asked you to annul the liquidation order. Why did he address himself to you?
A.- I can recall the entire thing in the following manner. The compiling of the liquidation order took place somewhat later. I don't have the document before me, but I don't think it is necessary. Now the idea here was that for the continuation of the firm, the camouflage of the Osti was to be used. The only question there was the question of laws. The name was to be continued. That was the reason why the liquidation was to be concealed.
Q.- We still didn't clear up the question, however, of what you knew about the activities of the Osti in detail. Can you answer that question?
A.- Let me point out again that only in August of 1943 I joined this Staff and I had to deal with various things which would enable me to get used to my work at the time. At the beginning and even towards the end of the year I was in charge of the school, so that I couldn't get acquainted with all the names. The name of the Osti only made an impression on me at a later date. In my case, the Osti was one of the many companies of which I did not know too much in detail, I don't believe I even knew at the time that it was not within staff W. I didn't know that at the time. In any case, it wasn't clear to me. I couldn't even say for certain what the Osti was producing if anyone had asked me. On the occasion of the liquidation, however, I say balance sheets. I believe, but I still couldn't understand any details from these balance sheets because they were nothing but computations of figures, They were only financial documents of a technical nature.
Q.- Witness, would you take Document Book No. XIX?
A.- I have it here.
Q.- Document No. 1268, Exhibit No. 494, on page 107 of the German and page 97 of the English Document Book. This is a letter by Dr. Max Horn, business manager of the Osti, G.M.B.H. which was liquidated at the moment, to Staff W and addressed to you. What was the reason that Horn again wrote to Staff W?
A.- This is a question of the possible interpolation of the Legal Department, for some argument which resulted between a Dutch firm and the Osti. The document shows that the Osti had made advance payments to the Dutch, but those Dutch apparently had not paid back in time. I believe I know that and I can see it from the document, and that there were certain things affected, for certain deliveries were still lacking. Therefore, professionally I couldn't find out anything about it because that would deal with a legal question. I was possibly interested in seeing if the Osti was incurring a loss, because no deliveries took places but that was within the sphere of another department, so I referred it to the proper department.
Q.- To the Legal Department?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Did you ever see the Osti enterprises?
A.- No, I never did.
Q.- Herr Baier, in this connection, all those matters which you dealt with, they were normally auditing questions, were they not? I would appreciate it, therefore if you could answer my question, as far as you can to the best of your ability. How did you actually get involved in these things?
A.- Again I can only give you the same answer as I did before, that those were things which in some way were in connection with auditing and auditing matters.
Apart from that, I used to work on two or three special tasks which were referred to me because Pohl at the moment had no other man who would be in a position to do that work and that was the reason why he put me in charge of that Staff and he used me for that. Maybe this whole thing resulted from the fact that prior to my time the Staff had this task. I don't know if they were larger tasks or smaller tasks.
Q.- Witness, would you take a look at Document Book No. III, Document No. 1290, Exhibit No. 60, page 65 of the German and 64 of the English Document Book. This is the order by the Chief of the Main Office, Pohl to the commanders of the concentration camps and it reads: "Subject: Working Hours for Inmates." In this letter Pohl ordered the commanders of the concentration camps to make the inmates work 11 hours daily. What did you have to do with that matter?
A.- As can be seen from the document, Staff W, when I was in charge of it, that Ketter was passed on to me for reference purposes. That means that I simply acknowledged the contents of the letter and I took notice of them.
Q.- Did you in any way participate in the execution of the order?
A.- No, not at all. I may add, perhaps, why this letter was shown to me for informational purposes, but I don't know it. After all, I had nothing to do with working hours for the inmates, nor did I have anything to do with the concentration camps.
Q.- Do you know if the order was put into execution?
A.- I couldn't tell you that, because even the execution of any order was outside my sphere of activity. The letter was simply filed in our office. As far as the execution of the order is concerned, I do not believe it was carried out in the enterprises. As I stated before, I know from my own knowledge that the working shift at Flossenbuerg amounted to eight hours and technical matters in these enterprises did not permit a longer shift.
Q.- Did you think Pohl's order was justified?
A.- I couldn't possibly have any misgivings about that. I couldn't even think about it, in any case, in November, 1943. That was at a time when I knew nothing about the affairs of the enterprises, but here again I have to state that if I wouldn't have thought that the order was justified, I personally would not have been able to change anything in it. I simply looked upon the thing for informational purposes, as it is contained in the file.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Fritsch, we will recess until a quarter of two.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 23 July 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. FRITSCH (for defendant Baier):
Q. Witness, please take Document Book III, Document 1025, Exhibit 70, which is on page 103 of the German text, and page 96 of the English. Will you please tell us briefly what we are concerned with here, and what you had to do with it.
A. This is a letter by the co-defendant Mummenthey. Mummenthey at that time used me to prevent the appointment of work Manager Walter as an expert with the rank of Untersturmfuehrer. Officially I had nothing to do with this business. Mummenthey had told me that Walter didn't wish to become an expert in the SS, and therefore we both wanted to help Walter. The document shows that Walter wrote to Mummenthey. In this letter Walter had asked Mummenthey to prevent the appointment. Mummenthey thereupon wanted me to prevent this appointment by seeing Pohl, if necessary.
Q. Witness, the Prosecution has said that you were not satisfied with that promotion, and you wanted to achieve a higher rank for him.
A. No, that is not so, nor do I know how the Prosecution can assume such a thing. The fact that Walter never became an expert is sufficient to contradict what the Prosecution has contended.
Q. It seems to me that this matter is of interest because the letter shows that Himmler himself had made the appointment.
A. Yes, that is quite correct. It becomes clear from the letter. But Mummenthey did something rather bold when he prevented the promotion from being carried out, and he made it known when he wrote to me.
THE PRESIDENT: Please don't spend any more time on this letter.
BY DR. FIRTSCH:
Q. Witness, one question on another matter concerned with Walter.
I am only interested now, how you were connected with these things. There is a Prosecution document; a letter by Walter has been submitted, where he asked to have his salary increased. The statement for Pohl you made. Was that part of your duties?
A. No, the fixing of salary above six hundred marks was in Pohl's hands in his capacity as a manager. I assume that Pohl, when I reported to him about something, handed this matter to me saying that he approved of it and I passed it on to the agency concerned.
Q. Witness, I am to speak of something else, which is, your relation with the DWB. Were you a member of the management of one of the DWB companies of the DWB itself?
A. No. I was never a manager. In March 1944, shortly before the collapse, the employees were called up to the Home Guards, the Volksturm, and the defendants Dr. Volk and Dr. Wenner went to the front. Thereupon without doing anything about it myself, I was appointed Prokurist. I was not given official instructions. I never held any office, especially as in March, 1944, and, of course, shortly before the liquidation, or a month later, I left alone. The actual fact is, therefore, that any activity connected with the management in my capacity as a Prokurist I did not carry out for the DWB.
THE PRESIDENT: You said this was in 1944. You mean 1945, don't you?
THE WITNESS: I am very sorry. I made a mistake. I meant 1945.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, in document book No. 14, there is a document No. 1563, which is Exhibit No. 393, wherein reference is made to files and final balance sheet discussions. I shall start on the assumption that all matters connected with balance sheets of that concern, and the DWB were part of your duties. This becomes clear from the document, doesn't it?
A. Yes, that is quite correct.
Q. Witness, when you had these discussions about the balance sheets, did you reach any clarification about the sums of money for inmate labor, and the hours of work, and all these things, which are of interest for the terms "slave labor"?
A. No, this had nothing to do with losses listed on the balance sheets. On the balance sheet you compare the capital, values and debts, and you also show how much capital you have. As for the profit and loss, this is simply a calculation without any detailed statements as to production.
Q. Witness, you said, and this has been confirmed by other witnesses, that you disliked that kind of work in the WVHA. This dislike of yours, did it decrease as time went on, or did you continue to dislike it, and how did it express itself in your work with your colleagues?
A. I, of course, always endeavored to do my duty, and if I harbored any dislike against the work as such I did not wish my colleagues to suffer for it. This was true all the more, because after all I was on war service. However, I must say that I was never really happy in my work. It did not agree with me. I like the work of a teacher, and also because I had to set up on some occasions a sort of precedence on the part of my colleagues. I frequently felt that I was not liked.
Q. How, do you explain that?
A. For one thing it might have been because I was an auditor of the Staff, and auditors are usually not liked. I also thought the reason might be that the W-office Chiefs had a different training from mine. They were all of them graduates from the universities, and, therefore, they regarded my training which was more technical as inferior. Another element was the fact that it was well known that I knew Pohl from our joined training in the Navy. Anyway I had to overcome difficulties in that respect.
Q. Witness, I shall now come to the last detail of your activities with the WVHA. Until April 1945 you were in Berlin, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. I was then given the order to evacuate the staff with such files as were then available.
Q. Did you have an order to destroy material and documents?
A. No, my files were economic files, and nobody told me in Berlin to destroy them. As I remember it, no files were destroyed by virtue of my orders in Berlin.
Q. What were the orders you were given?
A. I was to go to the troop training camp in Dachau, and wait for further orders there, which I did together with another twelve persons. The other members of Staff-W remained in Berlin. I had about half a truck full of files with me.
Q. How long did you remain in Dachau?
A. I remained there with the documents and my employees for about two weeks, during which time I lived with my family. I used that period of time because no normal work was possible at any point. I brought my personal affairs in order. For instance, I made my own tax declaration for 1944, and handed it in.
Q. Then you were given an order to leave Dachau. When was that?
A. That order reads about 21 April, and I think it was the Defendant Georg Loerner who asked me the approximate day. I was given the order to go south of Rosenheim, and to remain in that area.
Q. Did you receive any other orders concerning your files?
A. Yes, when I asked him, the defendant Pohl told me, when he was staying in Dachau, that the files had to be preserved.
Q. Did you experience the end of the war there?
A. No, I and the employees had gone to a hut near the valley where we and the documents were. It was there that I heard of the unconditional surrender. I cannot remember the exact date, but soon after the occupation I went back to the valley, and I read a poster which said, "All German officers have to report." I therefore, went, as my conscience was clean, on the very next day to Bernau and I reported to the appropriate agency there. I told them all about my personal data, and showed them my pay-book which is still in existence today.
Q. Witness, did you make any statement about where the documents were on that occasion?
A. No, I don't think so, because on the same day I was interrogated, and was transferred to Nussdorf Camp, and it was only there that I told them where the documents were which I had saved. Those documents were taken over by the Americans later on. I also carried with me money vouchers, which also during my interrogation I handed over voluntarily; about twenty-five million marks, shares, Reich Bonds were involved here.
Q. Witness, at the beginning of your direct examination, you told me that during your earlier interrogations, in your affidavits, there were one or two things which were not correct.
Will you please answer my questions whether this was due to the way you had been interrogated, particularly, the manner in which this was done?
A.- No, it wasn't due to that. Any bad treatment or mistreatment is completely out of the question here. However, I was threatened if I did not give the answers which were expected. On the whole I was not intimidated. But, I would like to point out that psychologically I had lost all points of resistance. The interrogators had a manner of putting words into my mouth which, considering how tired I was, opened up the line of least resistance. That is how these obvious mistakes occurred. In addition to that, there was the fact that for weeks or months one was not interrogated at all. Then in a state of mental fatigue, caused by long solitary confinement, one was suddenly called up. I can only describe how I felt at the time by saying that I was in a sort of coma which made everything seem completely different to me.
Q.- Witness, when you were captured did you hand over anything else apart from money and the files?
A.- Yes. I also had in my possession about 120 watches which I was to distribute to soldiers. Pohl's adjutant passed the order on to me that I was to distribute 300 watches to soldiers. That was before the surrender. I distributed about 180 of those watches and I still had 120, when the unconditional surrender was announced. I then deposited the watches with a game keeper in the valley where we stayed in whom I had very confidence. When I was a prisoner I made indications where these watches were. I know that they have been fetched meanwhile.
Q.- Were they new watches or old watches? Did they perhaps come from confiscated property?
A.- No, they were new watches - wrist watches in green and yellow covers - Swiss manufactured. As the watches were not my property I felt I had the obligation to surrender them. Even after the unconditional surrender I did not feel any longer justified in distributing the watches to the soldiers. On that occasion I also saw to it that the cash which was available was collected. At least, that is what I have heard. I did not distribute that money because it was not my own.
Q.- Witness, a few questions about the last point of the Indictment. When you gave us your curriculum vitae you described to us how you joined the Waffen SS from the Navy. Were you ever a member of the Allgemeine SS?
A.- No, I never was a member of that organization. As an administrative officer I left the Navy and was taken over by the SS-Verfuegunstruppe or Waffen SS?
Q.- Witness, did you ever have any misgivings about the Waffen SS?
A.- I never felt any misgivings because I was a member of the Waffen SS. After all, I described how happy I was in my school and it did not matter to me whether it was a school of the Waffen SS or whether it was a school of any other organization. It would not have made any difference whether I was a civilian or a soldier. The main thing to me was my teaching activity. As I said before since my school days I had a longing to be a teacher and finally that desire had been fulfilled.
Q.- Witness, in the documents surely one is tempted to draw the conclusions that certain things occurred in the SS which one must call immoral. Did you ever obtain knowledge about these things?
A.- No, but I admit that such things have occurred. I know it today but I believe that the acts of criminals cannot be put at the door step of people, the majority of whom were decent and nice. It seems to me that it was fully intended to put elements into concentration camps which were obedient tools of the earlier plans after decent and honorable SS men, of whom I saw many in my school, had been sent to the front.
Q.- Witness, you saw the films here in Nurnberg. These conditions can only have been caused either by very special conditions or by beasts in human shape. Did you never hear anything of such things or of things which were perhaps not of that volume?
A.- No, I never saw anything or heard that people were worked to death, that they were ill treated, or killed, or starved to death because of negligence. But, here again I have to state that the pictures which were shown were correct.