THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, we were talking about the inmate wages and at the end you stated that you did not think the fact justified that an inmate who had lost his freedom and had to work should be paid. You didn't think that correct. Wasn't that the sense of your answer?
A. Yes.
Q. Did that matter develop further without any difficulties and, if so, how did it develop?
A. Great difficulties ensued. However, Pohl, when I finished my report, immediately stated that he was ready to have these things examined. With the report which I had given Pohl, my task would have been finished, and he would have taken the necessary steps and initiated investigations and he would have transferred them to another agency, possibly a business manager of one of those companies who had to make the payments or he possibly would have transferred that job to the Prokurist of the DWB. However, as he apparently at the moment did not find any other man and as I had told him the whole thing on my own initiative, he asked me to deal with that matter further.
Q. You mean, therefore, that as far as the departmental work was concerned the matter would have been settled with the suggestion that you had given him, that is, by giving him the report?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. What, however, did you actually do?
A. I gladly accepted that job; I can add that. However, when I carried out my work, I had to differentiate between the work which referred to the wages for the inmates and the second one, which referred to the payment of the inmates, the compensation.
Q. All right, we shall start with the wages. Take a look at Document Book 15. This Document Book has seventeen documents which were introduced and which refer to the new wage scale of the inmates as of 1 April 1944. Then we have Document No.568 in Document Book 4, Exhibit No. 117. I do not want to refer to every one of these documents, witness, and I would appreciate it if you would deal with the entire matter as briefly as possible.
A. I shall endeavor to do that, but I have to start from the historical point of view.
Himmler had issued an order, I don't know upon whose suggestion, that the compensation of the inmates was to be adapted to the wage scale of the free civilian workers, insofar as they were working for the free economy.
Q. Witness, apparently you are now referring to Document Book 15, Document 530, Exhibit 411, which is on Page 45 of the German and Page 34 of the English text. This is a file note by Weber; is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct. I have this file note before me now.
Q. Did you know that file note before?
A. No, I did not, but I would like to add that I worked together with Weber on this matter, and I discussed the whole thing with him. That file note refers to the order which was issued by Himmler.
Q. In Staff W you did not see that file note, did you?
A. No, but as I stated before, I discussed these things with Weber.
Q. This order issued by Himmler actually complied with your own attempts to deal with those matters?
A. No, that is not quite correct, because in the resulting execution of that order I saw a great danger because in the SS Economic Enterprises the wages for the compensation of inmates were definitely much lower than those of the civilian workers. They were much, much lower. I have already pointed out that the companies, practically speaking, were not very solvent.
Q. Couldn't you actually assimilate the wage scales to each other?
A. No, they could not very well be adapted to each other all of a sudden.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Fritsch, we aren't interested at all in how much the industries paid the Reich for inmate labor. That is not involved here, and, inasmuch as it is admitted that the inmates themselves were not paid, what difference does it make what the wage scale was? We are wondering whether this long inquiry in an attempt to fix the wage scale in proportion to the free labor, whether that makes any difference.
DR. FRITSCH: Yes, but, Your Honor, the idea is this: There are documents here which show Himmler's official attitude with reference to that question. All I wanted to clear up was whether the witness complied with these orders by Himmler. However, I wanted to deal with those natters only very briefly, because I think the only important part is how far the defendant had anything to do with wages.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, would it make any difference whether the defendant followed Himmler's order or not, because the inmate did not get any money as a result of Himmler's order. The Reich got all the additional money.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, in these documents, the terms "inmate compensation" and "inmate wages" are all mixed up. I thought it to be my duty to differentiate between those two terms.
THE PRESIDENT: We are not confused by the two terms. We understand the difference between them. The fact is that there weren't any inmates wages; isn't that true?
DR. FRITSCH: Yes, but now I want to clear up the question of how far this is in connection with the activity of the defendant Baier.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I don't think it makes abit of difference whether he was getting more or less money from the industries for the Reich.
DR. FRITSCH: No, Your Honor, the amount is not the decisive thing for me. I, too, think that this is immaterial, but the only problem is whether the defendant endeavored within the scope of that activity to obtain higher wages for the inmates. That, in my opinion, is of great importance and the only important thing for the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, you are going to attempt to show that he tried to got actual wages for the inmates which they would receive in money?
DR. FRITSCH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you don't claim that he ever succeeded?
DR. FRITSCH: No, he did not succeed in doing so. However, I did want to show why he was not able to succeed. I could ask this question in a very simple manner, and he could probably answer immediately, and the entire matter could be taken care of.
THE PRESIDENT: I think, without going through the seventeen documents that are in Book 15, if you will ask him, "Did you attempt to get some money for the inmates which they would actually receive?" he'll say "Yes". Then, "Did you succeed?" He'll say, "No", and we can close the book. Do you want to do that?
DR. FRITSCH: I would like to point out, Your Honor, that I had just made the statement that I shall not refer to all those documents in detail. I just said that before.
THE PRESIDENT: But I'm afraid the witness will.
DR. FRITSCH: No, I shall see to it that he doesn't.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, good.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, now, you followed the entire conversation, didn't you? I am going to ask you the following question: After the investigation which you made into the solvency of the firm and into the solvency of the firm and into the computation of the profits, did you find out after you had done that that the inmates did not receive any wages, and did you try to obtain wages for those inmates?
A. Yes, that was the case. However, please let me make a very short sentence and let me point out a few things which refer to the wages. I shall make only one sentence. A too large increase in wages for the inmates would have had a very dangerous influence on the business manager to the extent that when he paid the wages, he would be paying more than the enterprise could actually afford to pay, and therefore, they would reduce the personnel strength, and to that extent the compensation of the inmates, according to my opinion, did have something to do with the inmate himself. A clever manager wouldn't do that. In order to give you an example--However I have already made more than two sentences; I'm sorry, but may I please give you that as an example?
Now, if the enterprise has to pay five marks, and the enterprise can only pay three marks, and the business manager would like to make a profit -- after all, every business manager wants to show that the whole work is not done for nothing -- then you have the danger that the people will be made to work harder in order to make the profit. That is all I wanted to say.
Q. Witness, in this connection, in order to clear up this complex of wages, I would appreciate it if you would look at Document Book No. 1, Document 1577, Exhibit No. 15, Page 93 of the German and 77 of the English. This is your affidavit. You state in your affidavit: "In any case, special scales should be fixed for the inmates." At the end of the following paragraph it is stated that the fact that the inmates did not receive any wages was an exploitation of them. Was that your opinion at the time when you found out about those things, when you came across those problems?
A. Yes, that corresponds to my attitude towards the entire problem, and it runs along the same line of my work which I did with reference to those wages.
Q. Witness, according to that the free food and free billeting, etc., which any man who is in captivity receives, and the bonuses that the man received, according to your opinion were not sufficient?
A. No. That was the reason why I dealt with those things.
Q. I may now leave this entire problem. I would appreciate it if you would take another document book in your hands, which is Document Book No. XV, Document No. 517, Exhibit 86, Page 56 of the German Document Book and 48 of the English Document Book.
THE PRESIDENT: What book?
DR. FRITSCH: XV, your Honor. It is on Page 48 of the English Document Book.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that document number -
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, that document, No. 517, is contained there twice. This is No. 517 which I am talking about. I have Document Book No. XV before me, but it is also contained in Document Book No. IV for a second time.
Q. (By Dr. Fritsch) Witness, I do not intend to ask you about the question as to whether the inmate compensation compares with the inmage wages. All I want you to tell me is the following: This document in Document Book No. XV refers to camp regulations for inmates, is that correct?
A. That term is misleading, and as I have found it here I must say that it is not correct either. According to my recollection, Pohl used that term at the time and immediately after that I noted that term in my notebook as I always did during the conferences. The way it should read should be "Management Regulations".
DR. FRITSCH: I took a look at this document, your Honor, for the simple reason that both documents as such contain approximately the same thing. There is a large differences between the two in spite of that.
In Document Book No. XV a distinct addition was left away which is "Wage Scale". That term, "Wage Scale" is contained in the document which is in Document Book No. 1V. Otherwise the impression might arise that the defendant had compiled a camp regulation for inmates.
Q. (By Dr. Fritsch) Witness, would you please answer my last question put to you: Did you succeed in doing anything while attempting to get your ideas through, and if you didn't, why didn't you succeed in obtaining wages for the inmates?
A. I am afraid I have to say no; I didn't succeed in doing so. My attempts to obtain wages for them which become evident from the notes here and this also corresponded with Pohl's attitude and ideas, because Pohl, as is stated in this document, and I know that for sure, pointed out to me that the charwomen, who were to work in the organization, should receive wages. They were the lowest-paid class of people. But the entire matter was a Reich matter. I started the thing, but I never completed it. Then there was an additional thing that that work pleased me very much because there were social problems behind it, but unfortunately a short while after I had written down these notes, approximately in April or May, I was relieved of further dealing with that task. At the time it was given to a man named Moser. His name was Moser. I couldn't tell you anything else about the development of it, because I had no connections and contacts with Moser.
Q. Witness, from dealing with this matter, didn't you see the necessity for yourself to go into a protective custody camp and to see the thing on the spot and to be able to get into a very close contact with the inmates?
A. No. First of all the visit of a concentration camp by me would have started a large machine working before I could have received the permission to visit a camp. Apart from that I couldn't find out anything special in the protective custody camp because I heard through Pohl all those things on an economic basis, and there was nothing else left for me to deal with, since there was nothing but a computation system which worked in an orderly manner.
Q. Witness, I would appreciate it if you would speak much slower, and make a short pause.
A. Yes.
Q. Very well. Did you ever see any inmates at work in one of the enterprises?
A. Yes, I did, for instance, at Flossenbuerg while preliminary work was carried out there for the construction of planes. According to my recollection this work dealt with the construction of a fighterplane. The work was carried out in large halls which were very well ventilated and air conditioned, and the work was strongly mechanized, that it, it was done with machines. There was no difference between a German civilian worker and an inmate worker except, of course, for the clothes.
Q. Were you ever in a subterranean factory at any time?
A. No, I was never in a subterranean factory.
Q. Do you know anything about the working hours of the inmates?
A. I know, for instance, that in Flossenbuerg the workers worked in three shifts, that is to say, every shift consisted of eight hours and sixteen-hour recesses, I would say.
Q. Did you see anything disadvantageous about the food of the inmates?
A. Of course at the time I only walked through the halls. I took a look at the work they were doing. However, during that visit I was not able to see anything or observe anything about bad feeding conditions.
Q. Witness, a few questions concerning the extermination program of the Jews. You do know the document which contains Himmler's speech which he held at Posen. Did you find out anything about that speech at the time?
A. No, I only heard about the speech in the documents here.
Q. From 1933 to 1935 you were a member of the Party, weren't you? Did you know anything about the attitude of the Party toward the Jews?
A. Of course I didn't know the attitude of the Party toward the Jews. However, already at the beginning of my examination I pointed out that I did not take certain points of the Party program seriously particularly not at the beginning. I did recognize, however, as time passed, that the program was to eliminate the Jews from leading positions. Personally I was not interested in these measures. However, that the Jews were going to be exterminated, gassed and killed in all sorts of ways, I never assumed, and everyone who knows me will also know that one could not possibly expect me to believe such things.
Q. Witness, you have stated that apart from your activity in the administrative school in 1938, you were never again in a protective custody camp. When did you first find out that gas chambers existed in the concentration camps for the extermination of human beings?
A. That also only became known to me after the collapse. I only found out about it through the newspapers and radio or from the documents.
Q. You heard about the medical experiments, didn't you? In this connection a document was introduced here, and as far as I can see it is the only document in this connection, namely the document concerning the manufacture of polygal. We don't need the document, Witness. What did you have to do with it?
A. The Duetsche Heilmittel G.m.b.H. was part of the DWB with its main office in Prague. This firm produced pharmaceutical products. I believe it was early in 1944 when one day the Defendant Pohl wanted me to come and see him at his office. There was a gentleman in his office. I later on found out that it was Sievers who is now a defendant before Military Tribunal No. 1. Pohl informed me that Sievers wanted to have a drug manufactured. Whether the name "polygal" was already mentioned at the time I really couldn't tell you. Pohl, in any case, asked me to inform the business management of the Deutsche Heilmittel G.m.b.H. that they should contact Sievers for the manufacture of that product.
I did that, and later on I only found put that the production of this drug, with the Deutsche Heilmittel G.m.b.H, never did result in anything at all.
Q Witness, in that conversation between Pohl and Sievers in which you were present, was anything said at the time about how this drug had been discovered?
A No, I had no idea whatsoever what experiments preceeded that. I didn't even know Sievers. He was absolutely unknown to me, and I only saw him on this one occasion. Apparently it was only towards the end of the conference that I was called in; that is why I don't know anything about the contents of the conference. I don't even know if they spoke of experiments and research. However, I can assume that Pohl did speak with him about that.
In any case, all I had to do was to contact the Deutsche Heilmittel, GmbH, and to act as a liaison man between the Deutsche Heilmittel GMBH, and Sievers concerning questions of production.
Q Witness, I would appreciate it if you would answer my following question with either yes or no.
Did you at any time, anywhere, hear anything else about the medical experiments which are partly described in the documents contained here?
A No, I did not.
Q When you saw inmates at work, as you told us before, did you also observe that, prisoners of war, for instance, in Flossenburg, were being used?
A I observed nothing in that respect nor did I know anything about it. However, I cannot say that PW's were not among the people I saw working there. In any case, I didn't know them nor did I recognize them. All the people I saw were wearing prisoners' garb.
Q Witness, what did you hear about the transports which went to the East, transports which went to the extermination camp Auschwitz?
A I can actually state upon my oath that I actually never heard anything about it. All those things only became known to me after the collapse, only here in this court.
Q Witness, another document now. This is Document 1036, Document Book No. 3, Exhibit 66, page 82 of the German and page 80 of the English document books respectively.
That document suggests -- or at least gives the impression -- that you had something to do with concentration camps.
Will you please take a look at that document? How did you get to sign that document, which has nothing to do with auditing?
A I assume that this document was finally placed on my desk for my signature for the following reasons -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Let him read the document. It is so dim we cannot tell what is says.
DR. FRITSCH: Would you read the document?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I am reading it now. It refers to the conversion of compulsory labor camps at Cracow, Plassow, Lemberg, Lublin and Radom into concentration camps. With reference to your file note of the 18th of January, 1944, the Obergruppenfuehrer agrees with the organizational changes resulting from the conversion of ....
DR. FRITSCH: Excuse me. May I interrupt for just one minute? Your Honor, this document is actually written up in an impossible style. I think it is impossible for the interpreter to interpret it if it is submitted in this way. It also leaves certain doubts; that is the reason why I referred to this document.
THE PRESIDENT: The English printing is so bad that we can't even guess what it says.
DR. FRITSCH: Perhaps Mr. Robbins has a legible copy, your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: Is yours legible, Mr. Robbins?
Mr. Robbins has a better copy. Let him read the English translation.
MR. ROBBINS: "The Obergruppenfuehrer has approved the changes in organization of the German Equipment Works, DAW, resulting from the conversion of the above-mentioned labor camps into concentration camps. Thus the central administration for the Government-General of the German Equipment Works, DAW, can establish itself at Cracow, and SS-Obersturmfuehrer Mowinkel is to be appointed head of the central administration."
"Will you please keep me informed of the start and working progress of the new central administration?
"Chief, W,B....SS-Oberfuehrer."
THE PRESIDENT: Well, now, you interpret it there while you are there, Mr. Robbins. I mean, what is the significance of this? The Obergruppenfuehrer -- that is Pohl?
MR. ROBBINS: -- Has approved the changes resulting from the conversation, I take it, from the labor camps in the East into concentration camps, and Pohl is reporting that to the chief of Office W-4 -I mean Baier is reporting it.
THE PRESIDENT: That was at Cracow--or near Cracow-
MR. ROBBINS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: So Baier is reporting to Pohl?
MR. ROBBINS: To the Chief of Office W-4.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. --that Pohl has approved the change in status of the German Equipment Works from a labor camp to a concentration camp?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, your Honor. The subject of the letter states that the camps are located at Cracow, Plassow, and Lublin, and other places.
THE PRESIDENT: Why did you skip that other one?
MR. ROBBINS: I was afraid my pronunciation wouldn't be too good in the record.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, I believe that my fears have come true. This document is written in an impossible style in German, and it leaves certain doubts. That is the reason why I would like to ask the defendant two questions in this connection?
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q Witness, with this letter, is the order given that the labor camps are to be changed into concentration camps?
A No, not at all.
Q What is it that is stated then?
A Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl approves the establishment of a central administrative office of the DAW, GMBH, with its main office at Cracow. The basis for that is contained in the file note which is included that explains the thing. The text is extremely bad, and the title is also wrong.
Q Had the order already been given by any other agency before that the conversion was to be carried out?
A I don't know that, but I believe that it may have happened. The compulsory labor camps were probably changed in the meantime. This became known to me now. Himmler was the only man who could have done that.
Q Now, from this order which was issued before, the necessary consequences are drawn for enterprises?
A Yes, that is quite correct; and how the organization of that commercial enterprise was to low, and whether it was a commercial enterprise, can be seen from the file note at the end.
Q And how did you get to sign that document? How did you get to sign that thing?
A During his personal conferences, Opperbeck, who was in charge of W-4, probably submitted that report to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl because from this document it becomes evident that Pohl had given his written approval for that. Then Opperbeck went to the Legal Department in the staff and saw Dr. Hoffmann. According to the file note on the left-hand side of the letter the document was dealt with by Dr. Hoffmann. He dictated it, and he submitted the letter to me, apparently because Pohl had directly ordered, that it was not to be submitted to him once more.
That was the reason why his name is especially mentioned here. I signed that thing and it was passed on.
Q Witness, I would like to ask you a few questions about the OSTI enterprises. When did you first come across the ters OSTI, GMBH?
A I couldn't tell you that for certain today. In the document which deals with the unfinished work which was discussed this morning, the OSTI is not mentioned. Therefore, I probably found out about it and came across the name OSTI when I got used to the swing of affairs, later on.
Q Witness, from the Document Book No. 19 I shall show you Document No. 1271, Exhibit No. 491; it is on page 65 of the German and 64 of the English Document Book.
This deals with the report by the auditor, Hohann Sebastian Fischer, dated the 29th of September, 1944, that is to say, at a date when you were already a chief in Staff W. Was Fischer one of the auditors of your Auditing Department.
A.- No, Fischer was not an auditor in the Auditing Department. Fischer was a member of the DEST and his profession was an auditor.
Q.- When did you first see this report?
A.- I can't recall having seen that report during my time in Staff W. In any case, I say it here for the first time.
Q.- What did you know about the tasks of the Osti?
A.- The Osti as such was not part of the DWB.
Q.- The Osti was established during February of 1943. That was prior to your time in Staff W?
A.- Yes, that is correct.
Q.- What did you have to do with the Osti? Will you tell us about it?
A.- Towards the end of 1943, it was probably in November or December, I was informed about the liquidation that was to take place with the Osti.
Q.- Witness, we are now dealing with various decisions of liquidation, which were submitted. We don't have to deal with them in detail. Now did anything result with regard to the activity of the firm from those liquidation decisions?
A.- No, in those documents, two of them are contained. The second one is from the 1st of March, 1944. Do you want me to speak about it in brief terms?
Q.- In my opinion, this is not necessary. What did you have to do with the Osti. Why was it that Dr. Horn informed you on that liquidation question?
A.- Dr. Horn had been appointed the liquidator and later on he was to become the business manager in Office W-VII, and, during the liqui dation, certain legal questions arose in connection with him, for which no legal experts were at his disposal to deal with them.
You have already discussed such a document yesterday with the witness, Dr. Karoli. It is stated there at the end of the liquidation the books were to be placed at the disposal of the DWB. I want to add that the liquidation had been completed by the end of the war, and that the books of the Osti could not be found in the DWB, at least, not according to my knowledge.
Q.- Now, Witness, Dr. Horn asked you to annul the liquidation order. Why did he address himself to you?
A.- I can recall the entire thing in the following manner. The compiling of the liquidation order took place somewhat later. I don't have the document before me, but I don't think it is necessary. Now the idea here was that for the continuation of the firm, the camouflage of the Osti was to be used. The only question there was the question of laws. The name was to be continued. That was the reason why the liquidation was to be concealed.
Q.- We still didn't clear up the question, however, of what you knew about the activities of the Osti in detail. Can you answer that question?
A.- Let me point out again that only in August of 1943 I joined this Staff and I had to deal with various things which would enable me to get used to my work at the time. At the beginning and even towards the end of the year I was in charge of the school, so that I couldn't get acquainted with all the names. The name of the Osti only made an impression on me at a later date. In my case, the Osti was one of the many companies of which I did not know too much in detail, I don't believe I even knew at the time that it was not within staff W. I didn't know that at the time. In any case, it wasn't clear to me. I couldn't even say for certain what the Osti was producing if anyone had asked me. On the occasion of the liquidation, however, I say balance sheets. I believe, but I still couldn't understand any details from these balance sheets because they were nothing but computations of figures, They were only financial documents of a technical nature.
Q.- Witness, would you take Document Book No. XIX?
A.- I have it here.
Q.- Document No. 1268, Exhibit No. 494, on page 107 of the German and page 97 of the English Document Book. This is a letter by Dr. Max Horn, business manager of the Osti, G.M.B.H. which was liquidated at the moment, to Staff W and addressed to you. What was the reason that Horn again wrote to Staff W?
A.- This is a question of the possible interpolation of the Legal Department, for some argument which resulted between a Dutch firm and the Osti. The document shows that the Osti had made advance payments to the Dutch, but those Dutch apparently had not paid back in time. I believe I know that and I can see it from the document, and that there were certain things affected, for certain deliveries were still lacking. Therefore, professionally I couldn't find out anything about it because that would deal with a legal question. I was possibly interested in seeing if the Osti was incurring a loss, because no deliveries took places but that was within the sphere of another department, so I referred it to the proper department.
Q.- To the Legal Department?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Did you ever see the Osti enterprises?
A.- No, I never did.
Q.- Herr Baier, in this connection, all those matters which you dealt with, they were normally auditing questions, were they not? I would appreciate it, therefore if you could answer my question, as far as you can to the best of your ability. How did you actually get involved in these things?
A.- Again I can only give you the same answer as I did before, that those were things which in some way were in connection with auditing and auditing matters.
Apart from that, I used to work on two or three special tasks which were referred to me because Pohl at the moment had no other man who would be in a position to do that work and that was the reason why he put me in charge of that Staff and he used me for that. Maybe this whole thing resulted from the fact that prior to my time the Staff had this task. I don't know if they were larger tasks or smaller tasks.
Q.- Witness, would you take a look at Document Book No. III, Document No. 1290, Exhibit No. 60, page 65 of the German and 64 of the English Document Book. This is the order by the Chief of the Main Office, Pohl to the commanders of the concentration camps and it reads: "Subject: Working Hours for Inmates." In this letter Pohl ordered the commanders of the concentration camps to make the inmates work 11 hours daily. What did you have to do with that matter?
A.- As can be seen from the document, Staff W, when I was in charge of it, that Ketter was passed on to me for reference purposes. That means that I simply acknowledged the contents of the letter and I took notice of them.
Q.- Did you in any way participate in the execution of the order?
A.- No, not at all. I may add, perhaps, why this letter was shown to me for informational purposes, but I don't know it. After all, I had nothing to do with working hours for the inmates, nor did I have anything to do with the concentration camps.
Q.- Do you know if the order was put into execution?
A.- I couldn't tell you that, because even the execution of any order was outside my sphere of activity. The letter was simply filed in our office. As far as the execution of the order is concerned, I do not believe it was carried out in the enterprises. As I stated before, I know from my own knowledge that the working shift at Flossenbuerg amounted to eight hours and technical matters in these enterprises did not permit a longer shift.