After that conference I was ordered by the Auditing Court to make a detailed report of the budgetary situation. I did that in the letter which was just quoted as a document. After it could be seen from this entire procedure that the Ministry of the Interior had already approved the amount to be finally stricken, we had to refuse from the budgetary regulations to repay the amount. That idea is conveyed by the document. I have to add something to this, namely, due to the fact that this cannot be seen from the procedure after the change of Stutthof into a State concentration camp, the DWB, that is, the German Economic Enterprises, were apparently ordered by Pohl to buy an estate, which I believe was near Stutthof, and was to be used as a settlement by the local Sector. I didn't know all the connections. However, in order to avoid in any case that an office should issue Reich funds, that is even to the DWB or the General SS, in this particular case, to the local Sector, I ordered, after having had a conference with Pohl -- and also I informed the Auditing Court -that after the purchase of the estate had been completed, the amount of 300,000 Marks would have to be paid back by the DWB to the Reich. I told that at the time to the Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Volk; if this purchase of the estate was carried out before the end of the war or not, I do not know. I imagine that Dr. Volk is the man who could give you information on that.
Q What did you know about the Ahnenerbe agency?
A The Ahnenerbe was an office in the main staff, the personal staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS. We regarded this office as a hobby of the Reichsfuehrer which dealt with ancestry research and excavations, etc. Where the Ahnenerbe received its funds, I didn't know. Certain planning offices were paid by the Reich Treasury of the Party. I didn't know the Chief of the Ahnenerbe.
Q In Document Book No. 9 you will find Exhibit 234, Document 098, which is on page 47 of the German and 44 of the English Docu Court No. II, Case No. 4.ment Book.
On page 3 of that report about the Ahnenerbe -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What Document Book?
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Document Book No. 9, Your Honor.
Q It is on page 3 of the German original. This report, which is signed by Sievers, states the following: "The funds for the institute-and with that he means the newly established-institute-for Military Scientific Research in the Ahnenerbe as ordered by the Reichsfuehrer-SS and discussed between Standartenfuehrer Loerner and myself in detail, will be paid from funds of the Waffen-SS." Can you recall this matter, and what are the various connections?
A Yes, I can recall this matter very well. As can be seen from one of the documents introduced by the prosecution, the Reichsfuehrer had ordered that the Military Research or Scientific Research Institute should be established in the Ahnenerbe and furthermore, that the funds for that should be drawn from the funds of the Waffen-SS.
because Ahnenerbe didn't have any funds or any right to funds or disposition over funds in the Waffen SS. The Chief of Sievers spoke to Pohl about it at the time. Pohl apparently sent him to me. However, the actual idea was to determine what office would have to pay the expenses which would result. That was an office of the Personal Staff. I told Sievers at the time that the treasury of the Personal Staff would have to pay the expenses, and that order is possibly contained in a document in one of your document books. I should also like to point out at this time that was not a fund of the Waffen SS, as the prosecution states in the indictment, but that these are simply funds and normal funds of the Waffen SS.
Q. You just spoke of an order of Himmler's, in some other document which was introduced by the prosecution. In Document Book Number VII I have the exhibits 202 and 204, NO-422 and NO-266, on pages 39 and 41 of the German Document Book. Now, at the present moment I don't know the pages of the English Document Book. I'm sorry. Are those the two orders which you just mentioned?
A. Yes. One of the orders, which is Exhibit Number 202, is the order by the Reichsfuehrer which was sent to Pohl for informational purposes.
Q. What can be seen from this?
A. That the Reichsfuehrer had ordered that the Military Institute for Scientific Research was to be established and that the Waffen SS should place the funds at their disposal. The second document, Exhibit 204, is my letter addressed to the treasury of the Personal Staff. It says here, and I quote: "As far as expenses occur for this institute, they are to be paid from the funds of the Waffen SS by the treasury of the Personal Staff of the Waffen SS, and personal expenses under Article 217-A, and certain factual expenses with Chapter 217-B."
Q. Did Sievers when conferring with you discuss the experiments that were carried out in his institute?
A. No. He didn't have any reason to do so. First of all, I met Sievers there for the first time and secondly the Reichsfuehrer had ordered that the funds were to be paid by the Waffen SS, so that the order actually already existed. All we had to find out now was which treasury had to put the funds at their disposal. Aside from that, all these experiments were secret matters which Sievers could not discuss. Furthermore, Sievers was in too high a position to lower himself and speak to me about such things because he had his orders from the Reichsfuehrer. In any case, before I read the documents here, I had no knowledge whatsoever that experiments were being carried out on concentration camp inmates in the concentration camps.
Q. What was your idea about this Institute for Military and Scientific Research? What did you think they were doing there?
A. The name Military Scientific Research could comprise almost anything. It could have been new weapons; it could have been a new explosive powder. It could have been a new system of food--any of the things which had something to do with the war. The name itself doesn't mean a thing.
EXAMINATION
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, you knew that it had some connection with Ahnenerbe, did you not?
A. Your Honor, I only knew that the Institute for military scientific research had been established in the Ahnenerbe by order of the Reichsfuehrer.
Q. You knew that it was related to the Ahnenerbe and didn't have anything to do with explosive powder or anything of that kind?
A. It could be that the Reichsfuehrer had ordered scientists who were working in the Ahnenerbe to work there for some purpose or another. I didn't know who was working in the Ahnenerbe.
Q. You knew what the Ahnenerbe was, did you not?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You knew that the Institute for Military Scientific Research was being established by Himmler within the framework of the Ahnenerbe?
A. Yes, indeed, Your Honor.
Q. Didn't you connect the two things at all in your mind?
A. Well, Your Honor, after Sievers had stated that he also had to pay wages, I had to assume that for this Military Scientific Research Institute he would receive new personnel and that new personnel could have been working in all sorts of fields in which they had been trained.
Q. That doesn't answer my question. In your mind did there arise any connection between the Ahnenerbe and the Institute for Scientific and Military Research?
A. Your Honor, why the Reichsfuehrer had selected the Ahnenerbe for that purpose, I couldn't know. I didn't know that, because the Ahnenerbe on the basis of its former activity was not destined to carry out those things. However, since the Reichsfuehrer had ordered it and he had also ordered that the expenses should be borne by the Waffen SS, the budgetary matter had already been taken care of.
Q. Did you know what the Ahnenerbe was?
A. Yes, I have already stated that, Your Honor.
Q. What was it?
A. That was an office where as far as we knew scientists were working before, scientists who dealt with all the prehistoric matters. That is to say, they carried out excavations and similar things. If other things were also carried out by the Ahnenerbe I didn't know because I had nothing to do with the Ahnenerbe. I didn't know Sievers at all.
Q. Was it your idea that all the Ahnenerbe was concerned with was excavating old ruins?
A. Well, before, yes. That's all we knew about it, you see, because I didn't know anything at all about the Ahnenerbe itself. All All I knew was what I knew from hearsay about the Ahnenerbe because they didn't receive any funds from me, nor did they receive funds from the Waffen-SS.
Q. Now, tell me again just what you thought the Ahnenerbe was engaged in and what they were doing.
A. I believed that before this Military Scientific Research Institute was established the Ahnenerbe dealt only with prehistoric research in Germany. That could be seen from the name itself. Ahnenerbe stands for Pre-Historic Society. It was also possible that the Reichsfuehrer wanted to give the Ahnenerbe a new task because its old assignment had no purpose whatsoever during the war. Therefore, in my opinion, that office was superfluous and could be used for new tasks.
Q. You talked to Sievers before this letter was written, did you?
A. Yes, indeed, Your Honor.
Q. Now, what did Sievers say? What did you talk about with him?
A. Today, after four or five years, I can't recall the exact things we said. However, it couldn't possibly have dealt with anything but purely budgetary matters; and for that reason, because he didn't know where to get his money, because after the Commanderin Chief of the SS Himmler had ordered that the expenses had to be born by the Waffen SS, there was no reason whatsoever for me to doubt the expenses somehow.
Q. Your answer is, that you and Sievers talked only about budget matters?
A. Yes, only about the administrative things, and the budget matters, because Sievers was not an expert in the administration.
Q. And Sievers did not explain to you what the Ahnenerbe was doing?
A. No, he did not. As far as I can recall he just told me that the Reichsfuehrer had ordered the establishment of this Institute, and that he needed personnel, and that he had expenses, and he wanted to know what treasury would give him money, what treasury would have to receive his bills for payment.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, you did not seriously believe that during the war for survivorship that this organization would be devoting its time to the excavation of old ruins, did you?
A. Your Honor, those things only referred to peacetime. I have already told Mr. President that I had to assume that the activity of the Ahnenerbe could not be carried out during the war anymore.
Q. Then you knew that it was submitted to some other activity during the war?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Well, weren't you interested in finding out what that activity might be?
A. No, Your Honor. I would have had very much to do if I wanted to know everything about all of the offices which received money from the Waffen-SS, if I wanted to know everything they were doing. It was neither my activity nor had I been ordered to do so, to know such things.
Q. You might not have to know every detail, but it seems to me that there would be an actualy desire on your part to ascertain to what purpose the money was being put for any particular operation?
A. Your Honor, the Reichsfuehrer had ordered that these funds were to be paid by the Waffen-SS, and, therefore, I had no reason whatsoever to doubt that these funds were being used for orderly purposes.
I did not inquire specifically what the money was being used for.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q. Witness, in order to clarify that matter, you have already stated that institute for Military Scientific Research was part of the Ahnenerbe, as Sievers told you, and there is no doubt today that by the name of "Military Scientific Research" you assumed, of course, that it dealt with research work for war purposes?
A. Yes, that was my statement.
Q. Well, what research work exactly was being carried out, you didn't ask and you were not told about it?
A. No.
Q. Witness, now something else about the budget. In Document Book No. 12 you will find Exhibit No. 331, Document No. NO-2128. It on page 12 of the English Document Book. This document also deals with the budget, amongst other things. The document was signed by Pohl. What can you see from all of that?
A. From that document it can be seen very clearly that the SS Economic experts were fully responsible for all of their expenses. They did not need any special permission for that, and they drew their funds from their own field treasuries. It can also be seen from this document very clearly that the Waffen-SS had an unlimited budget during the war.
Q. Witness, I shall refer to the opening speech by the prosecution. The Prosecution in its opening speech stated on page 58, that in June 1943 the various industrial enterprises obtained a loan of eight million Reichsmark which was paid from the so-called Reinhardt fund. Did you know about it, and what do you wish to say about it?
A. I would like to state the following. First of all, I didn't know of any Reinhardt fund, and, secondly, I was not informed by Frank about the loan to the Economic Enterprises.
Amt A-I had not participated in that loan, or in connection with that loan. I believe that the Prosecution refers to one of the documents which deals with the repayment of the loan to the savings association.
Q. By that do you mean Exhibit No. 448, that is Document Book 17 on page 33 of the German and page 32 in the English Document Book and Document No. NO-554?
A. Yes, that is the document which I meant.
Q. What does it deal with?
A. It deals with the repayment of a loan to the German Red Cross, which had been given to the Economy already, before the war, and where the savings association had been interpolated. Why the savings association had been interpolated at that time I don't know, because the savings association was only subordinated to me, in 1942. With regard to the document itself, I shall quote briefly, "By order of SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Frank, the following loans are repaid effective the 31st of May 1943." Then the loans are listed. It bears the date of 7 June 1943. Please have the interest for April and May paid by the enterprises concerned directly. The repayment is to be carried out, according to the order of Obergruppenfuehrer Frank, in order to eliminate the loan to the Red Cross," and the letter is signed by the DWB, Dr. Wenner. From that letter it could not be seen that these funds came from the New Reich loan, nor did one see they came from the Reinhardt Fund, nor did I see anything from this letter. The amounts was sent directly to the savings association, and later on transferred by the Red Cross by the savings association. The savings association did not make any profit on the interest, because the loan of the Redcross had also had to pay interest. I shall refer again to the fact that the reason why the loan went through the savings association is unknown to me, and it was not known to me at the time, either.
Q. Witness, you stated that you knew nothing about the Reinhardt Action. Didn't you know anything about the utilization of the Jewish property which was confiscated during that action?
A. Office A-I did not participate at all in the entire Reinhardt Action. I was not connected with it; neither Pohl, nor Frank , nor Vogt informed me in any way about the case. Even when Eckert left, Amt A-II, no documents whatsoever were given to me. Hauptsturmfuehrer Melmer, who has been mentioned here so many times, was never subordinated to me. In the course of the entire matter about the utilization of Jewish property Amt A-I was not concerned; it only received one document in that respect, and it was introduced subsequently.
Q. I show you a document here. That is Exhibit No. 545, which was introduced by the Prosecution subsequently.
A. I believe that I don't really have to read this letter in detail, and to discuss it, because it was already dealt with when the defendand Pohl was interrogated. This refers to a letter, A-II-3, "Reinh,", apparently "Reinhardt," dated 9 December 1943, and A-I did not receive that letter, you are referring to. Why this letter was sent to Office A-I for informational purposes I can only explain from paragraph I where the agencies are stated, which are competent for the Jewish property, and, these were the Reich Agencies. Whether I received knowledge of this letter, I don't know but I believe that this was in July 1944 when I was frequently absent from Berlin, and, there is a possibility that letter was handled by the experts, as it dealt with correspondence which actually did not have anything to do with Amt A-1.
Q. I have one final question, witness. The prosecution mentioned the case of the Sponsoring Members of the SS. Can you tell us in a few words what happened to the amounts paid by the Sponsoring Members of the SS and what, generally speaking, became of these Sponsoring Members of the SS after the beginning of the War?
A. The contributions of the Sponsoring Members, up to April 1935, were used for the expenses of the General SS. In 1935, the General SS from that moment on received the funds from the Reich Treasurer of the NSDAP. From then on the contributions of the Sponsoring Members were credited to the budget. They had to be delivered to the Reich Treasurer so that from that time on the General SS could not make any profit on these payments. They were credited to the Reich Treasurer. After the beginning of the war, no more contributions arrived, and the organization of the Sponsoring Members died a swift death. It disappeared.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Your Honor, I have thus finished the direct examination of the defendant Hans Loerner. I do not wish to have any witness. However, later on I would like to introduce a few documents after they have been translated in order to substantiate the defense of the defendant Hans Loerner.
THE PRESIDENT: You will be permitted to offer any documents that you wish later on. The Tribunal will be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH (Counsel for the defendant August Frank)
Q: Witness, on behalf of the defendant August Frank, I would like to ask you a question. When did Frank, as Chief of Amtsgruppe A leave the WVHA?
A: Defendant Frank, in September 1943, was ordered to join the police. From that time onwards he had no authority any more as far as Office Group A was concerned.
Q: Was he in a position to issue orders to the various office chiefs?
A: He was not able to give orders. Frank was under special orders to go to the police until Fanslau was appointed, which I believe was in May 1944 when he became Office Group chief. There was a sort of "interregnum". We had no office group chief at all. Frank was so over-worked at the police that we could turn to him in only very few cases. He was not able to give us any more orders.
Q: Only because Frank had this enormous administrative experience you obtained his advice in a comradely way later on?
A: Yes, Fanslau, in our field of offices A-1, 2, 3 and 4, had too little expert knowledge for him to be in a position to give orders. We did that on our own initiative. That state of affairs remained even after Fanslau became Office Group chief. Fanslau was completely worked into his administrative office and as a true administrative officer. We left him to it and settled our affairs ourselves. Whenever there was a difficulty we had it settled by Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. Otherwise, from May 1944 onwards when Fanslau became office group chief, I worked almost exclusively on the administration of the General-SS and on the simplification of the administration with the OT. In these matters Fanslau was not in a position to interfere because there I was immediately under Pohl.
Q: Witness, defendant Fanslau said yesterday on the witness stand -he used the expression: "Frank, after he left and joined the Police, had no longer a desk in the WVHA." From that, one might gain the impression as though Frank continued to be the chief, for all practical purposes -but he simply had no desk.
Can you clear up that?
A: No; that is incorrect. As I saw it, we had lost Frank as an Office Group chief. I assume that he kept the position within the WVHA only for the reason that the police did not have a position of that sort in its budget. I am not quite sure about that; I assume so.
Q: Thank you. No further questions.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG (Counsel for the defendant Fanslau):
Q: Only one question concerned with the cooperation between the office groups. You may recall the example which the Prosecution used concerning the 50,000 gloves. That example was to the effect that a concentration camp needed 50,000 gloves. The administrative officer of the camp requested the gloves if he did not have them in stock himself. Where did he apply for them?
A: The administrative officer of the concentration camp requested the gloves from his superior office: D-4, the administrative office of the inspectorate of the concentration camps.
Q: In other words, Office Group D (for David)?
A: Yes, D (for David) 4. If Office Group D-4 had a store, the gloves would have been supplied by that store. Some sort of voucher would have been written out, and that would have been from the administrative point of view. No treasury process was involved in this because the gloves had been paid for already.
Q: Now, let us assume that Office Group D did not have any store of gloves in it. Where would Office Group D (for David) request these gloves from?
A: Office Group D, as far as I am informed, would probably have turned to the clothing camp in Dachau, presumably, and would have requested there the 50,000 gloves. But it is equally possible that the request would go through the competent office in the WVHA--which would be Office B-2.
Q: B (for brother)?
A: Yes, B for brother. Whether that channel was ever used, I am unable to tell you. But in any case, it would go to the clothing camp concerned. If that clothing camp or store had the gloves available, they were sent against the voucher to the concentration camp. If they were not in store, one had to wait until the gloves became available, and then they were supplied. Payment for the gloves would be effected by the clothing works. No payment would be effected by the treasury of the concentration camps.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q: Suppose the gloves were in the storehouse of the concentration camp and they were brought prior to the time they were placed there. Who paid for them then?
A: Your Honor, if the gloves were available in the camp, they were supplied by the clothing works.
Q: I understand that. But who paid for them before they were put in the storeroom of the camp?
A: Whatever agency had ordered it -- which was the clothing works in Dachau. They requested all clothing items for the Waffen-SS, and paid for them.
Q: Well, did the WVHA have anything to do with paying for supplies of the concentration camp?
A: Not in that case, Your Honor.
Q: Well, in what cases did they have to pay for supplies for the concentration camps?
A: The WVHA in no case. The WVHA would never appear where payments were concerned. Payments were effected by the clothing works which supplied the gloves. There all articles of clothing were paid for, whether they were gloves, shoes, uniforms, underwear, or anything else.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: How about shovels and picks for the concentration camps?
WITNESS: Well, these would be equipment items. They were supplied by Office B (B for brother) III.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And who paid for them?
WITNESS: In that case, Office B-III, the Supply Office. As far as I know, it had its own treasury.
Q Was that process the same as when some unit of the WaffenSS, possibly fighting at the front or somewhere, demanded gloves?
A That was the same process. Gloves, at the request of the troops, were supplied by the nearest clothing agency, if and when available, or by the clothing works in Dachau, and were handed over against the voucher. Treasury processes were not involved at all here, because the gloves had been paid for, because after all that would be the last word of bureaucracy if you had to pay one Reich agency by another Reich agency. Therefore, there was only a voucher.
Q So that, in other words, the treasury of the clothing works, when they bought the gloves, paid for them?
A Yes.
Q But where the gloves went within the SS, whether to the SS or any sub-department of the WVHA or to some unit of the Waffen SS or any other agency, they went without any treasury process?
A No, there were no treasury processes.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
BY DR. HAENSEL (ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT GEORG LOERNER):
Q Herr Loerner, Dr. Rauschenbach already talked about various documents, which bear the slogan, "Ahnenerbe". There is one document in particular, to which I wish to draw your attention, in Volume 7, page 40 in the German Book, Document NO-1920.
A Exhibit 203?
Q Yes, quite. It is a very brief document. I might per Court No. II, Case No. 4.haps read the pages which we are concerned with here.
It says "The financing of the Department for Scientific Military Research, will in accordance with the desires of the Reichsfuehrer SS be born by the Waffen SS. That decision has been communicated to the WU Main Office where Brigadefuehrer Loerner as chief of Office Group B in the WVHA is responsible for questions of Financing." -- Chief of Office Group B Loerner, SS Brigadefuehrer.
A In my view there is a confusion here. I do not know the signature. It's some untersturmfuehrer. I assume that should mean -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: It was testified when this document was offered that it was signed in Himmler's office by his clerk or someone in authority in his office.
WITNESS: Yes.
Q May I interpolate? It has been signed by Wolf. I know that from somewhere else. This is Understurmfuehrer Wolf who was a colleague of Sievers.
A I assume that this man Wolf still had the Main Office, Budget and Building in mind, because it is dated 22nd of July 1942 and in the Main Budget and Building Office Brigadefuehrer Georg Loerner was responsible for budget actions and probably that man assumed that Georg Loerner would still be in the new WVHA competent for these questions, whereas, actually, it was I.
Q Therefore Chief of Office Group B -- B for Brother -and in the English translation it says B for brother -- that was not your province, in other words, it concerned your brother.
A No, there must have been some confusion here.
Q Tell me, Herr Loerner, were you frequently confused with your brother?
A It didn't happen often.
Q It didn't happen often? Neither in your appearance nor in your character is it easy to confuse you two, is it?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A No, no, no.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Witness, your brother Georg Loerner was the Chief of Amtsgruppe B, was he not?
WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You were not Chief of Amtsgruppe B. You were not even connected with B, were you?
WITNESS: On one occasion in 1943, for a short period of time I had to supervise Office B-I. The Chief of Office B-I, which is supplies, was transferred and the new Chief of B-I had not yet come back from the front. He could not be spared at that time. Office B-I at that time was an orphan and I had to supervise that office. There were extremely good experts in that office and that supervision, therefore, hardly appeared on the scene. Otherwise I was overworked any way at that time with the new wage scale for the Allgemeine-SS and was absent from Berlin quite a bit, because I lead all the negotiations with the Treasury Department in Munich. I did not have the time, therefore, to work very intensely in Office B-I.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: This letter, though, is dated 22nd of July, 1942. That was prior to any time that you had anything to do with Amtsgruppe B, was it not?
WITNESS: Yes, that was before that time, Your Honor.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Now what was your rank in 1942?
WITNESS: In 1942 I was, I believe, an SS-Standartenfuehrer.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And what was Georg Loerner's rank at that time?
WITNESS: Georg Loerner was an SS-Brigadefuehrer, which the letter says.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And they addressed him SS-Brigadefuehrer in this letter, or, SS-Brigadefuehrer Loerner--they did not say "Georg". I said they addressed him as SS-Brigadefuehrer Loerner.
WITNESS: Well, I did not write the letter -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Nobody is accusing you of writing the letter.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
I am telling you what the letter says. The letter doesn't refer to anybody in your rank at all, but it does refer to Loerner, as SS-Brigadefuehrer Loerner, and that's your brother, isn't it?
WITNESS: Yes, quite.
Q Your brother had never anything to do with such questions of financing, did he?
A Only before the WVHA was established. When he was Chief of Office I, Budget, in the predecessor of the WVHA, the Main Office, Budget and Building, and that, I think is the reason why this confusion came about, because up to the 1st of February, 1942, the field of budgeting of the Waffen-SS was concentrated in Office A-I of the Main Office, Budget and Building, and Georg Loerner was Chief of that Office, which is the reason he was in charge of the Budget. He did not work on the budget himself, but he would work only as an expert for that purpose.
Q We want to discuss the question here whether your brother, Georg, had anything to do with the financing of the Ahnenerbe at that time, not what he did formerly in any sense.
A After 1 February 1942 when the WVHA was established, Georg Loerner had nothing to do at all with financing. Therefore, he could not do anything for the financing of the Ahnenerbe.
Q Was your brother at any time your immediate superior, as you recall it? Did he give you orders, official orders?
A I cannot recall a single case when my brother, particularly as the Deputy of the Main Office Chief, would have given me an order. Our fields of tasks were far too widely separated for that, Troop administration on the one hand, and budgets on the other.
Q. Did your brother see you very often outside office hours, or did you meet comparatively infrequently?
A. Our flats were fairly widely separated in Berlin and air raids made it difficult for us to meet. We stayed at home usually in the evening. Of course it happened that Sundays, for instance, once a fortnight or once every three weeks, we had family visits. I had no children. My brother had two boys. Therefore, it was obvious that we would visit the family and the two boys.
Q. Were you active as an uncle, so to speak?
A. Yes, certainly. I was also a godfather of one child of my brother who unhappily died during the imprisonment of my brother.
Q. Tell me, was your brother a man who was socially very active, or was he usually at home in the evening when he was not on duty?
A. My brother as well as I never went out in the evening. He did not have the inclination.
Q. Well, let us talk about his inclinations. Tell me this: Was your brother a man of quick mind and vast mental interests?
A. A somewhat strange question.
Q. Well, these sometimes are the most important ones.
A. My brother is a trained merchant and passed his examination. Therefore, he must have some degree of intelligence. Otherwise, his whole character was such that we would call it phlegmatic.
Q. Tell me, in Shakespeare, "Julius Caesar", there is the passage: "Let there be fat men around me who sleep at night. Cassius has an evil eye." The prosecution might perhaps find out who Cassius is in this case.
THE PRESIDENT: The passage doesn't say "an evil eye".
Q. Was your brother a somewhat stout man?
A. When things went well. May I perhaps say here briefly that my brother was badly wounded in July 1918. His knee was badly injured and by that would he was very much impeded up to 1930. From that impediment he contracted a disease of the heart and also glandular dis turbances which made him somewhat stout.
Therefore, he was somewhat rotund, much more so than I am.
Q. You could call him phlegmatic?
A. Yes, I said that before.
Q. Tell me, Loerner, I should like once more in the interest of all of us to try to pick up once more the question which His Honor put to you, but perhaps not entirely successfully. That is the question of how the treasury side was handled in the case of, for example, a request of Office Group D. How did the bills appear in these cases? Let us come back once more to our gloves because we know that example.
You said before that it might well be that in Department B a treasury was kept from which requests were paid for. Is that an assumption on your part or a definite knowledge?
A. This is only an assumption, but somewhere there must have been a treasury in this whole so that the supplying of equipment which occurred centrally could be paid for. Some treasury purchases must have been carried out.
Q. I must admit I always asked myself that question all the time. Somebody must have paid for something. Now, this is how I imagined it to be. You told us that, to use your example, the garrison treasury of Dachau requested 20,000,000 marks for October 1943 and received them. The treasury garrison at Dachau in its turn passed on the request of the units stationed in Dachau and paid for it from that sum. Now, let us assume picks and shovels were bought. They would have been paid for from that money, wouldn't they?
A. Let us assume that there'd be an agency, a central agency purchasing picks and shovels. These items would have been paid for by the treasury department in Dachau.
Q. Now, let us assume that agencies for picks and shovels should be located somewhere near Ingolstadt or where?
A. I do not know. I do not know where they were. Yes, I assume that it must have been at Dachau from my example.