Q. I have one final question, witness. The prosecution mentioned the case of the Sponsoring Members of the SS. Can you tell us in a few words what happened to the amounts paid by the Sponsoring Members of the SS and what, generally speaking, became of these Sponsoring Members of the SS after the beginning of the War?
A. The contributions of the Sponsoring Members, up to April 1935, were used for the expenses of the General SS. In 1935, the General SS from that moment on received the funds from the Reich Treasurer of the NSDAP. From then on the contributions of the Sponsoring Members were credited to the budget. They had to be delivered to the Reich Treasurer so that from that time on the General SS could not make any profit on these payments. They were credited to the Reich Treasurer. After the beginning of the war, no more contributions arrived, and the organization of the Sponsoring Members died a swift death. It disappeared.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Your Honor, I have thus finished the direct examination of the defendant Hans Loerner. I do not wish to have any witness. However, later on I would like to introduce a few documents after they have been translated in order to substantiate the defense of the defendant Hans Loerner.
THE PRESIDENT: You will be permitted to offer any documents that you wish later on. The Tribunal will be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH (Counsel for the defendant August Frank)
Q: Witness, on behalf of the defendant August Frank, I would like to ask you a question. When did Frank, as Chief of Amtsgruppe A leave the WVHA?
A: Defendant Frank, in September 1943, was ordered to join the police. From that time onwards he had no authority any more as far as Office Group A was concerned.
Q: Was he in a position to issue orders to the various office chiefs?
A: He was not able to give orders. Frank was under special orders to go to the police until Fanslau was appointed, which I believe was in May 1944 when he became Office Group chief. There was a sort of "interregnum". We had no office group chief at all. Frank was so over-worked at the police that we could turn to him in only very few cases. He was not able to give us any more orders.
Q: Only because Frank had this enormous administrative experience you obtained his advice in a comradely way later on?
A: Yes, Fanslau, in our field of offices A-1, 2, 3 and 4, had too little expert knowledge for him to be in a position to give orders. We did that on our own initiative. That state of affairs remained even after Fanslau became Office Group chief. Fanslau was completely worked into his administrative office and as a true administrative officer. We left him to it and settled our affairs ourselves. Whenever there was a difficulty we had it settled by Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. Otherwise, from May 1944 onwards when Fanslau became office group chief, I worked almost exclusively on the administration of the General-SS and on the simplification of the administration with the OT. In these matters Fanslau was not in a position to interfere because there I was immediately under Pohl.
Q: Witness, defendant Fanslau said yesterday on the witness stand -he used the expression: "Frank, after he left and joined the Police, had no longer a desk in the WVHA." From that, one might gain the impression as though Frank continued to be the chief, for all practical purposes -but he simply had no desk.
Can you clear up that?
A: No; that is incorrect. As I saw it, we had lost Frank as an Office Group chief. I assume that he kept the position within the WVHA only for the reason that the police did not have a position of that sort in its budget. I am not quite sure about that; I assume so.
Q: Thank you. No further questions.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG (Counsel for the defendant Fanslau):
Q: Only one question concerned with the cooperation between the office groups. You may recall the example which the Prosecution used concerning the 50,000 gloves. That example was to the effect that a concentration camp needed 50,000 gloves. The administrative officer of the camp requested the gloves if he did not have them in stock himself. Where did he apply for them?
A: The administrative officer of the concentration camp requested the gloves from his superior office: D-4, the administrative office of the inspectorate of the concentration camps.
Q: In other words, Office Group D (for David)?
A: Yes, D (for David) 4. If Office Group D-4 had a store, the gloves would have been supplied by that store. Some sort of voucher would have been written out, and that would have been from the administrative point of view. No treasury process was involved in this because the gloves had been paid for already.
Q: Now, let us assume that Office Group D did not have any store of gloves in it. Where would Office Group D (for David) request these gloves from?
A: Office Group D, as far as I am informed, would probably have turned to the clothing camp in Dachau, presumably, and would have requested there the 50,000 gloves. But it is equally possible that the request would go through the competent office in the WVHA--which would be Office B-2.
Q: B (for brother)?
A: Yes, B for brother. Whether that channel was ever used, I am unable to tell you. But in any case, it would go to the clothing camp concerned. If that clothing camp or store had the gloves available, they were sent against the voucher to the concentration camp. If they were not in store, one had to wait until the gloves became available, and then they were supplied. Payment for the gloves would be effected by the clothing works. No payment would be effected by the treasury of the concentration camps.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q: Suppose the gloves were in the storehouse of the concentration camp and they were brought prior to the time they were placed there. Who paid for them then?
A: Your Honor, if the gloves were available in the camp, they were supplied by the clothing works.
Q: I understand that. But who paid for them before they were put in the storeroom of the camp?
A: Whatever agency had ordered it -- which was the clothing works in Dachau. They requested all clothing items for the Waffen-SS, and paid for them.
Q: Well, did the WVHA have anything to do with paying for supplies of the concentration camp?
A: Not in that case, Your Honor.
Q: Well, in what cases did they have to pay for supplies for the concentration camps?
A: The WVHA in no case. The WVHA would never appear where payments were concerned. Payments were effected by the clothing works which supplied the gloves. There all articles of clothing were paid for, whether they were gloves, shoes, uniforms, underwear, or anything else.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: How about shovels and picks for the concentration camps?
WITNESS: Well, these would be equipment items. They were supplied by Office B (B for brother) III.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And who paid for them?
WITNESS: In that case, Office B-III, the Supply Office. As far as I know, it had its own treasury.
Q Was that process the same as when some unit of the WaffenSS, possibly fighting at the front or somewhere, demanded gloves?
A That was the same process. Gloves, at the request of the troops, were supplied by the nearest clothing agency, if and when available, or by the clothing works in Dachau, and were handed over against the voucher. Treasury processes were not involved at all here, because the gloves had been paid for, because after all that would be the last word of bureaucracy if you had to pay one Reich agency by another Reich agency. Therefore, there was only a voucher.
Q So that, in other words, the treasury of the clothing works, when they bought the gloves, paid for them?
A Yes.
Q But where the gloves went within the SS, whether to the SS or any sub-department of the WVHA or to some unit of the Waffen SS or any other agency, they went without any treasury process?
A No, there were no treasury processes.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
BY DR. HAENSEL (ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT GEORG LOERNER):
Q Herr Loerner, Dr. Rauschenbach already talked about various documents, which bear the slogan, "Ahnenerbe". There is one document in particular, to which I wish to draw your attention, in Volume 7, page 40 in the German Book, Document NO-1920.
A Exhibit 203?
Q Yes, quite. It is a very brief document. I might per Court No. II, Case No. 4.haps read the pages which we are concerned with here.
It says "The financing of the Department for Scientific Military Research, will in accordance with the desires of the Reichsfuehrer SS be born by the Waffen SS. That decision has been communicated to the WU Main Office where Brigadefuehrer Loerner as chief of Office Group B in the WVHA is responsible for questions of Financing." -- Chief of Office Group B Loerner, SS Brigadefuehrer.
A In my view there is a confusion here. I do not know the signature. It's some untersturmfuehrer. I assume that should mean -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: It was testified when this document was offered that it was signed in Himmler's office by his clerk or someone in authority in his office.
WITNESS: Yes.
Q May I interpolate? It has been signed by Wolf. I know that from somewhere else. This is Understurmfuehrer Wolf who was a colleague of Sievers.
A I assume that this man Wolf still had the Main Office, Budget and Building in mind, because it is dated 22nd of July 1942 and in the Main Budget and Building Office Brigadefuehrer Georg Loerner was responsible for budget actions and probably that man assumed that Georg Loerner would still be in the new WVHA competent for these questions, whereas, actually, it was I.
Q Therefore Chief of Office Group B -- B for Brother -and in the English translation it says B for brother -- that was not your province, in other words, it concerned your brother.
A No, there must have been some confusion here.
Q Tell me, Herr Loerner, were you frequently confused with your brother?
A It didn't happen often.
Q It didn't happen often? Neither in your appearance nor in your character is it easy to confuse you two, is it?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A No, no, no.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Witness, your brother Georg Loerner was the Chief of Amtsgruppe B, was he not?
WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You were not Chief of Amtsgruppe B. You were not even connected with B, were you?
WITNESS: On one occasion in 1943, for a short period of time I had to supervise Office B-I. The Chief of Office B-I, which is supplies, was transferred and the new Chief of B-I had not yet come back from the front. He could not be spared at that time. Office B-I at that time was an orphan and I had to supervise that office. There were extremely good experts in that office and that supervision, therefore, hardly appeared on the scene. Otherwise I was overworked any way at that time with the new wage scale for the Allgemeine-SS and was absent from Berlin quite a bit, because I lead all the negotiations with the Treasury Department in Munich. I did not have the time, therefore, to work very intensely in Office B-I.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: This letter, though, is dated 22nd of July, 1942. That was prior to any time that you had anything to do with Amtsgruppe B, was it not?
WITNESS: Yes, that was before that time, Your Honor.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Now what was your rank in 1942?
WITNESS: In 1942 I was, I believe, an SS-Standartenfuehrer.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And what was Georg Loerner's rank at that time?
WITNESS: Georg Loerner was an SS-Brigadefuehrer, which the letter says.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And they addressed him SS-Brigadefuehrer in this letter, or, SS-Brigadefuehrer Loerner--they did not say "Georg". I said they addressed him as SS-Brigadefuehrer Loerner.
WITNESS: Well, I did not write the letter -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Nobody is accusing you of writing the letter.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
I am telling you what the letter says. The letter doesn't refer to anybody in your rank at all, but it does refer to Loerner, as SS-Brigadefuehrer Loerner, and that's your brother, isn't it?
WITNESS: Yes, quite.
Q Your brother had never anything to do with such questions of financing, did he?
A Only before the WVHA was established. When he was Chief of Office I, Budget, in the predecessor of the WVHA, the Main Office, Budget and Building, and that, I think is the reason why this confusion came about, because up to the 1st of February, 1942, the field of budgeting of the Waffen-SS was concentrated in Office A-I of the Main Office, Budget and Building, and Georg Loerner was Chief of that Office, which is the reason he was in charge of the Budget. He did not work on the budget himself, but he would work only as an expert for that purpose.
Q We want to discuss the question here whether your brother, Georg, had anything to do with the financing of the Ahnenerbe at that time, not what he did formerly in any sense.
A After 1 February 1942 when the WVHA was established, Georg Loerner had nothing to do at all with financing. Therefore, he could not do anything for the financing of the Ahnenerbe.
Q Was your brother at any time your immediate superior, as you recall it? Did he give you orders, official orders?
A I cannot recall a single case when my brother, particularly as the Deputy of the Main Office Chief, would have given me an order. Our fields of tasks were far too widely separated for that, Troop administration on the one hand, and budgets on the other.
Q. Did your brother see you very often outside office hours, or did you meet comparatively infrequently?
A. Our flats were fairly widely separated in Berlin and air raids made it difficult for us to meet. We stayed at home usually in the evening. Of course it happened that Sundays, for instance, once a fortnight or once every three weeks, we had family visits. I had no children. My brother had two boys. Therefore, it was obvious that we would visit the family and the two boys.
Q. Were you active as an uncle, so to speak?
A. Yes, certainly. I was also a godfather of one child of my brother who unhappily died during the imprisonment of my brother.
Q. Tell me, was your brother a man who was socially very active, or was he usually at home in the evening when he was not on duty?
A. My brother as well as I never went out in the evening. He did not have the inclination.
Q. Well, let us talk about his inclinations. Tell me this: Was your brother a man of quick mind and vast mental interests?
A. A somewhat strange question.
Q. Well, these sometimes are the most important ones.
A. My brother is a trained merchant and passed his examination. Therefore, he must have some degree of intelligence. Otherwise, his whole character was such that we would call it phlegmatic.
Q. Tell me, in Shakespeare, "Julius Caesar", there is the passage: "Let there be fat men around me who sleep at night. Cassius has an evil eye." The prosecution might perhaps find out who Cassius is in this case.
THE PRESIDENT: The passage doesn't say "an evil eye".
Q. Was your brother a somewhat stout man?
A. When things went well. May I perhaps say here briefly that my brother was badly wounded in July 1918. His knee was badly injured and by that would he was very much impeded up to 1930. From that impediment he contracted a disease of the heart and also glandular dis turbances which made him somewhat stout.
Therefore, he was somewhat rotund, much more so than I am.
Q. You could call him phlegmatic?
A. Yes, I said that before.
Q. Tell me, Loerner, I should like once more in the interest of all of us to try to pick up once more the question which His Honor put to you, but perhaps not entirely successfully. That is the question of how the treasury side was handled in the case of, for example, a request of Office Group D. How did the bills appear in these cases? Let us come back once more to our gloves because we know that example.
You said before that it might well be that in Department B a treasury was kept from which requests were paid for. Is that an assumption on your part or a definite knowledge?
A. This is only an assumption, but somewhere there must have been a treasury in this whole so that the supplying of equipment which occurred centrally could be paid for. Some treasury purchases must have been carried out.
Q. I must admit I always asked myself that question all the time. Somebody must have paid for something. Now, this is how I imagined it to be. You told us that, to use your example, the garrison treasury of Dachau requested 20,000,000 marks for October 1943 and received them. The treasury garrison at Dachau in its turn passed on the request of the units stationed in Dachau and paid for it from that sum. Now, let us assume picks and shovels were bought. They would have been paid for from that money, wouldn't they?
A. Let us assume that there'd be an agency, a central agency purchasing picks and shovels. These items would have been paid for by the treasury department in Dachau.
Q. Now, let us assume that agencies for picks and shovels should be located somewhere near Ingolstadt or where?
A. I do not know. I do not know where they were. Yes, I assume that it must have been at Dachau from my example.
Q. Well, let us assume that it was not in Dachau but in Ingolstadt or Wuerzburg. We could assume that, couldn't we?
A. Yes.
Q. Then the process would have been that agency would have received the money from the treasury in Wuerzburg to pay for the picks and shovels?
A. Only in the event of Wuerzburg having a garrison treasury at all.
Q. If it didn't, nobody paid for it?
A. No. If it had a treasury department there at all, they would have a treasury of their own.
Q. From where would the money come?
A. If Wuerzburg had not been coordinated to some garrison treasury, it probably had a treasury of its own. That independent treasury requested its money just as in my example of the garrison treasury at Dachau, from the WVHA. It would receive the money from the Reich Ministry of Finance and pay for its picks and shovels.
Q. Very well.
A. From 1944 onwards it paid for its own items by checks; received its money once again in order to pay for its bill.
Q. Therefore, in order to describe the process from B, B would receive a request for a thousand shovels, in its turn order that agency in Wuerzburg to supply Dachau with a thousand shovels, and B does not handle any money at all.
A. The WVHA had nothing to do whatever with the actual payment. I believe that should have become clear by now.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Haensel, I think you and I will have to do justice by Cassius. The quotation is, "Yon Cassius hath a lean and hungry look." He didn't have an evil eye. Do you accept the correction?
DR. HAENSEL: Yes, Your Honor.
EXAMINATION BY DR. BELZER (For the defendant Earl Sommer):
Q. Witness, did you know Karl Sommer while you were with the WVHA? Did you, rather, know SS Standartenfuehrer Maurer?
A. Yes.
Q. I should like to refresh your memory and recall a more beautiful day in your life. Are you in a position to tell the Court today when and where you met Karl Sommer?
A. I can recall this incident because one prefers to recall good days rather than bad ones. That was when I had a week's leave in the SS House in Bayrischzell. I can recall that SS Standartenfuehrer Maurer was also there. He was there because in the evening we used to play cards. I can recall that on one occasion I saw defendant Karl Sommer.
Q. At the Berghaus in Bayrischzell?
A. Yes. He visited Standartenfuehrer Maurer. He was introduced to me.
Q. The thing was that Maurer was there to have a holiday?
A. Yes. He was there when I arrived, and he was still there when I left. I had only a week's leave.
Q. And Sommer was present on one certain day in that house to visit Maurer?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you and Sommer have any discussions on the purpose of his visit?
A. No, I did not know Sommer. He was just introduced to me. I did not talk to him a lot.
DR. BELZER: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
EXAMINATION BY DR. KLINERT (For the defendant Bobermin):
Q. Witness, since when have you known Dr. Bobermin?
A. I knew Dr. Bobermin in the WVHA only by sight. I knew from the organization charts that Bobermin was working in Group W, but I had not close contact with him.
Q. Am I to understand that officially you had no connection with him?
A. I mentioned before that I and Office Group W had nothing to do with each other.
Q. Did you have any personal social contacts with him?
A. No, I knew him only by sight.
Q. Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there further cross examination by defense counsel? If not, Mr. Robbins may cross-examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, I believe you told us you joined the NSDAP on the 1st of January, 1932?
A. Yes.
Q. You joined the Allgemeine SS on the 1st of April, 1933?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you said you were drafted into the Waffen SS on the 1st of October, 1939?
A. Yes.
Q. What you actually meant by that was that as an SS man you had received orders to transfer to the Waffen SS, isn't that correct?
A. Yes, I was drafted just as I would have been to the Wehrmacht because I was liable to do service in the Waffen SS.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q You received orders as an SS-man, didn't you?
A In that case I received orders as Hans Loerner.
Q You don't claim that you were drafted into the SS originally, do you?
A I don't quite understand that question.
Q You don't claim that you were originally drafted into the General-SS?
A No, no. I volunteered.
Q And do you recall a time when Himmler closed the ranks of the SS, between the end of 1933 and the end of '35, do you recall that happened?
A All I know that for a time the ranks were closed.
Q And do you know that the reason the ranks were closed for a two year period was so that the unreliable SS-men could be weeded out, those who did not hold the proper SS Ideology?
A I did not know at that time. I didn't bother about it.
Q But you found it out later?
A No, I never bothered about that point at all. I know that the ranks had been closed for some time temporarily. For what reason that had been carried out, I didn't know.
Q You don't know --
A I was an accountant, and did hardly take part in any active service.
Q You had not found that out, the reason for the ranks being closed after two years; even as of today?
A I assume today, that Himmler did not want at that time to have too many people in the carder.
Q And why do you think he expelled quite a number of people during that period?
A There were a great many who joined us who were not reliable from the point of view of character.
Q You were not expelled from the SS during that period, Court No. II, Case No. 4.were you?
A No.
Q Witness, were you at any time connected with the Verwaltungsamt-SS?
A I was attached to the Verwaltungsamt-SS Munich as the chief of the sector of Nurnberg.
Q Yes, and what period of time was that?
A That was from the Summer of 1938 onwards, until the outbreak of the war.
Q You were subordinated to the defendant Pohl in that position, weren't you?
A Yes.
Q And what offices in the Verwaltungsamt-SS were you subordinated to, which of the offices?
A I was not subordinated under an office. I was immediately under Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl as my chief. As to the individual fields, I was only connected as long as it concerned the fields with the Sector Main, but as to the question, so far as the clothing was concerned, it was in the clothing sector.
Q And did this clothing sector have anything to do with supplying the clothing for the concentration camps?
A No, that was Allgemeine-SS at that time. I had nothing to do with the concentration camps at all.
Q And did it have anything to do with the clothing of the Waffen-SS?
A No. There was no Waffen-SS at that time, and so far as special task group was concerned, or the Death Head Units were concerned, the Allgemeine-SS had nothing to do. I would like to add briefly here, that the members of the Allgemeine-SS paid for their uniforms from their own pockets, it was not supplied to them. The Allgemeine-SS men had to pay for all of their uniform pieces from their money.
Q And after 1939 were you at any time connected with the Court No. II, Case No. 4.main office of Haushalt und Bauten, the Budget and Construction Office under Pohl?
A The Main Office as to any building I had nothing to do with, as I said before from the 1 May 1940 I was in the Troop Administration of the SS. I was only after my six or eight weeks, as I had indicated, in Pohl's Personnel office, and that was the Main Office Administration and Economy, and there I was concerned only with the personnel offices which I had to set up jointly with others.
Q And were you subordinated to any of the Main Offices under Pohl, that is, Offices I, II, III and so on?
A All those offices I had nothing to do with.
Q You told us that for a time you supervised the Office B-1. Will you give us the date for that, please?
A I don't recall the exact date, but I assume it must have been from the Spring 1943 onwards. It might have been March or April, or May, but I am not quite sure about the exact date, because I was not too much bothered about this. Chief of Office B-1, which was the defendant Tschentscher, came, I believe, in July or August, as the chief. In August and September I was -- in August I was ill, and in September I was on leave. Therefore, it must have been roughly that period, and from the 1st of August onwards I was no longer on duty until October.
Q When did you give up your duties as supervising B-1?
A After Tschentscher's arrival.
Q When was that?
A If I quite remember, it was in August or September 1943.
Q Were you at any time connected with any of the other Amtsgruppen in WVHA, other than the ones you have mentioned?
A I used to contact the office groups only through the Main Office Chief, if there was anything carried out; if it concerned another office group, Pohl would decide about that.
Q Were you attached at any time to any of the other offices Court No. II, Case No. 4.of Amtsgruppen in WVHA, other than B-1, or A-1, and A-II?
A No, I was only in Office Group A, to which I was attached.
MR. ROBBINS: Would this be a convenient time for the Court to recess for the noon hour, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1:45.
(Noon recess until 1345, 13 June 1947)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
HANS LOERNER: Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION:
Continued BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, in Sievers' letter which you were asked about on direct examination -- which is NO-098 in Document Book 9 -- I don't think it is necessary for you to turn to it -- Sievers said, "The budget of the Institute will be met according to the order of the Reich Leader SS--" He is talking about the budget of the Ahnenerbe, and: "as already discussed by me in detail with SS-Standartenfuehrer Loerner out of the funds of the Waffen SS." Is it true as Sievers says that you discussed the budget in detail with him?
A. I mentioned this on direct examination. All that we are concerned with here is what treasury was to put up the money. In no case was it discussed what experiments or what sort of research work that institute was to carry out. That was no longer necessary after the Reichsfuehrer's order that those expenses should be met by the Waffen SS. Moreover, this is not a fund but a normal budget item of the Waffen SS.
Q. And you told us that you did not know that this so-called research of Ahnenerbe was being carried out in concentration camps; is that right?
A. All I said was that I did not know that we had anything to do here with experiments on inmates.
Q. I would like to show you a letter and see if you can give us any more details after having seen it. Is this your letter, witness?
A. Yes, it is. It bears my signature.
Q. Why was it being sent to concentration camp Dachau?
A. In this letter reference is made to a letter from a concentration camp of 4 January 1943. From that letter it does not become clear at all that these experiments on concentration camp inmates. Probably the administration of the Dachau camp wrote to me to inquire if the expenses of the military research institute could be paid from funds of the Waffen SS, and in accordance with my order, which has been submitted as a document, I wrote to the administration in Dachau.
MR. ROBBINS: I had better identify this document before going further. It is NO-243, and I will mark it as Prosecution's Exhibit No. --- Can the Secretary General tell me what the next exhibit number is?
THE SECRETARY GENERAL: 553, I believe.
MR. ROBBINS: I think that is right.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Didn't this give you some idea that some sort of research was being carried out in concentration camps, particularly at Dachau?
A. No, because in concentration camps there were also enterprises. This letter might just have been about experiments carried out in the enterprises there.
Q. What kind of experiments were they carrying out in the enterprises at Dachau?
A. I don't know, nor does it become clear from the letter.
Q. You know, don't you, that the Military Scientific Research Institute carried out no experiments, had no activity whatsoever, except in connection with the human experiments? Didn't you know that?
A. No. I dispute that most definitely, and I never said that I knew it.
Q. You know it today, don't you?
A. I know it today from the documents, yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Let me ask him one question.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Witness, you say in this letter, which you say that you wrote on the 28th of January, 1943, the following: "According to an order of the Reichsfuehrer SS dated 7 July 1942 concerning the establishment of an Institute for Military Scientific Research, the cost of this will be paid from the funds of the Waffen-SS." What did the order that you referred to in your letter, of the Reichsfuehrer SS, dated the 7th of July, 1942, say?
A. That is the order which has been submitted here as a document to establish the scientific military research in the Ahnenerbe, and secondly, that the cost had to be met by funds of the Waffen-SS.