A. No.
Q. Considering your knowledge of Milch's character, would you consider such an order a probability?
A. I do not consider it a probability but I do consider it probable that at one time or another he may have made a remark, typical for Milch. Milch, you see, was a little choleric and very outspoken, but if he did speak severely, then according to my recollection it was usually directed against someone present at the meeting, particularly people from his own ministry who were working directly with him and who were told that if they didn't meet with his requirements then they'd be put before court martial.
Q. Was Milch well-known for making severe statements?
A. Yes, he was very well-known for that.
Q. Did anyone take these outspoken comments of his seriously?
A. Well, they were taken seriously in as far as one knew that Milch's patience had come to an end, but I do recall that at the end of these meetings Milch somehow or other made up with the people in question, because it was his own impression that he had gone too far in the manner with which he expressed himself in the meeting.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Will this be a convenient time to break off? I might indicate that our program for this afternoon will be like this: we will reconvene at one-thirty and carry through to about three--fifteen. Then, I have an appointment which will keep me occupied until four o'clock and if we have not finished by three-fifteen we will return at four o'clock. If it is convenient to Mr. Denney and to you, we will then carry on until we finish the job because I think we will want to finish it today.
DR. BERGOLD: Mr. President, I have only got one request. By an order of the Tribunal I may speak to Milch in the interval, but I shall have to eat. Therefore, may I ask not to reconvene at one--thirty Court No. 2- Take 3 (GES) but at one-forty-five in order for me to have time to converse with Milch briefly.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That is entirely satisfactory. We will then give you 1173-a Court No. 2 - Take 2 - MN enough time.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes sir, that will give me plenty of time. Thank you.
( A recess was taken until 1345 hours)
AFTERNOON SESSION
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may proceed, Dr. Bergold.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, in this morning's session you mentioned the severe utterances of Milch. Do you know whether after having made such severe utterances he also took the correspond ing measures as regards courts martial and that the decree for death sentences was carried through?
A. From my own knowledge I cannot say so. In the Luftwaffe a few court martial trials were carried through industrialists. I remember one case, but I do not believe it will be of interest to you. However, in my opinion that case was absolutely justified.
Q. Who ordered the trial? Don't you know, or do you Know?
A. In the criminal law procedure, I have too little experience. There were actual infractions of law. For instance a works manager built for himself a private shelter out of material which had been made available for war purposes.
Q. Thank you. Did Milch bring anyone into a concentration camp as far as you know?
A. Not according to my knowledge.
Q. Did the Jaegerstab itself recruit foreign workers in the occupied territories?
A. No. It could not do it because it had no executive agencies for it.
Q. At one time the Central Planning Board made a special steel contingent available to the Jaegerstab, especially sheet steel. Were they intended for airplane construction for OT construction, for the SS etc.?
A. I cannot say that from these statements because sheet steel was also used in the construction of air planes, for the protection of the pilots against munition, when he was shot at.
Also, during the last phase of the war, airplanes were built from light-weight sheet steel.
Q. Was Milch a member of the Jaegerstab?
1175 - a Court No. 3 - Take 3 (GES)
A. That, too, I cannot answer correctly. In any case, he had a direct representative in the Jaegerstab until the time of his resignation from the Ministry in April of 1944.
Q. Who established the building program for the air industry in the early part of the war?.
A. Various phases should be distinguished there. From September, 1939, on I placed my organization which was concerned with new constructions in Nurnberg and Berlin at the disposal of air armament. In the course of time this staff carried out construction work for air armament in an increasing measure so that in the year 1941 one may perhaps say that the new construction for air armament were in most pant carried out by my organization. Do you want a further development of it?
Q. No. I am now placing before you the minutes of the meeting of 27 April 1942 of the Central Planning Board which is contained in document book number 33 of the English book. At this meeting, it was discussed that Sauckel should have am influence on the Stalag. I now ask you to note the reply of Milch in regard to this desire of Sauckel. I shall ask you a question relative to it.
I ask you to tell me whether that suggestion on the part of Milch was a serious one or what other opinion you have about it.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: In the minutes was there a reference which would indicate what this suggestion consisted of?
DR. BERGOLD: A suggestion to the effect that the Stalag should come under the supervision of Sauckel. Thereupon, he declared he has no people.
"MILCH: Then they must be put into uniform."
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I did not know that you made reference to the preceding question.
Q. Which meeting is it? The 32nd one?
A. It does not say anything on it. Date 30 October 1942.
Q. There is no number on it. Date 30 October, 1942. The 21st meeting.
Court No. 2 - take 3 (GES)
A. I may call to your attention the following: This may also involve an error in that only one page of the meeting of 30 October 1942 is involved, but then there is one other -
This remark of Milch I understand to mean that he wanted to have an immediate channel of authority for Sauckel direct to the Stalag. Well, it should be clear to him that that was not possible, Stalag being a purely military organization to be under Sauckel's direct order. That is one of the typical examples of the language used in such a meeting where one does not weigh very carefully every single word. I believe, therefore, that anyone who reads minutes of such a meeting covering 70 or 80 pages comes to the conclusion that many remarks are contained therein which do not really make very much senses.
Q. As regards Sauckel's statements on the question of workers, did Hitler place more confidence in you or in Sauckel?
A. I am sorry that unfortunately he placed more in Sauckel. Sauckel not only exerted a great influence on him, but Sauckel's line was at the same time the inner line of Hitler himself.
Q. Did not Hitler himself on the basis of the statements made by Sauckel in figures criticize you because you did not produce as much as would be justified in view of the number of workers which Sauckel had allegedly made available to you?
A. Frankly speaking, I do not quite understand the question.
Q. I repeat.
A. Would you formulate the question differently?
Q. Did Hitler declare to you you should be able to produce much more in your sector because you had the great number of workers which Sauckel had reported?
A. That is correct, but not without qualification. The most important bottleneck with which we had to contend was that of raw materials and individual parts which had to be delivered. An increase in armament depended on it.
Take 3
Q Is it correct that in your differences of opinion with Sauckel Milch asked repeatedly to assist you?
A That is correct.
Q In your discussions with Hitler did you prepare Fuehrer Meeting Minutes? To whom did you send copies of the minutes?
A In principle these minutes were not sent to anybody. After the meeting, I dictated the minutes from memory and then they went to the Central Office. The Central Office then decided to whom letters were to be written on individual points, in the form of extracts from the minutes.
Q Is it correct that on the periphery of the minutes on the Fuehrer meetings, notations were always made on the different agencies to whom copies were to be sent -- these remarks?
A Yes.
Q In the minutes of a Fuehrer meeting of 29 September 1942, it is stated: "Fuehrer's attention called to the fact that armament production in concentration camps impossible." Instead three to five per cent of the weapons produced by them should be made available to the SS Divisions. What did your armament have to do with this concentration camp production?
A That is not the correct working if I may say so. May I have the original text?
Q Yes.
A If you do not find it, we shall continue, it is not so important.
Q For the time being, I will withdraw my question. Perhaps I may put it this way: Did you know that Himmler was planning on armament production in concentration camps?
A The minutes of September, 1942, say that Himmler wanted to erect armament factories in his concentration camps and my counterproposal which had been approved by Hitler was to erect small camps in the vicinity of factories already existing and to put the workers to work there. This was in order to eliminate Himmler's influence on the Take 3 armament program.
The sentences which you quoted, are a few sentences only which do not give the context. In my opinion that is clearly shown from the text.
Q Was Milch present during that discussion?
A It might be presumed but from recollection, I cannot tell.
Q That should be shown by the minutes.
A No. Not necessarily.
Q Do you know whether Milch went from Goering to Hitler without permission?
A Goering did not like Milch to go to Hitler. In the beginning of the existence of the Central Planning Board, I took Milch to see Hitler once or twice and thereupon, an order came out along that line. The word "order" is perhaps too strong in my opinion.
Q During the time when you were sick, Milch was once expected to give a report to Hitler on the general situation for the Central Planning Board. What does the idea "general situation" mean in this connection?
AAlso during my sickness, a meeting took place in the Central Planning Board on the subject of building projects of long-range character in order to determine that we had already released by far too many structures of a long-range character. That is connected with what I said this morning. We thereby wanted to show to Hitler and Goering at the same time that an additional burden on the building industry with building projects of a long-range character was an impossibility. The result of the meeting was that the constructions which were released represented a building period of three to four years.
Q Aside from this occurrence, was Milch at any time your deputy on building questions.
A No. He also was not a representative in building questions along that line because that was a task for the Central Planning Board to eliminate if necessary construction work of a long-range character.
Take 3 My task as a General Plenipotentiary of the Building Industry only asked for me to determine that these building projects of long-range character had assumed proportions for which responsibility could not be taken.
Q Thank you. Is it known to you that in the year 1943 or 1944, I do know which it is exactly at this moment, that Milch criticized Hitler because he had asked for the building of a new Fuehrer headquarters in Silesia, a quantity of cement equal to that which had been made available for the population for the construction of air raid shelters?
A That is correct.
Q Do you know that it was customary in a ministry in Germany to write a letter in the "I" style of the Minister even if the letter was written by an office such as the Chief of Office of a Minister?
A That was customary, but not in my Ministry.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: How would you know the practice?
THE WITNESS: Because I was often amazed and could not understand why letters of subordinates were written on letterheads of the Minister and written in "I" style. I asked the Chief of the Central Office. He said it was an old established practice. I thought it so ridiculous, I discontinued the practice.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q I now refer to the aspirations of Milch to resign from his offices. Do you know when General Milch resigned as Generalluftzeugmeister or when he was made to resign?
A Milch gave up his position as State Secretary in the Air Ministry and as Generalluftzeugmeister officially on August 1, 1944. However, practically he no longer occupied and exerted his duties beginning with the day when the transfer of air armament to my Ministry had been ordered by Goering. From that time on he merely occupied himself with the involved in transferring.
Take 4
Q Which were the reasons for Milch's resignation?
A Yes. I simply prefer to formulate it differently. There was unanimity of opinion between Milch and myself on the fact that the Air Armament was to come to me. After Air Armament came to me, there was no task left for Milch in the Air Ministry because it was one of the essential tasks left there. In addition, Goering, it is told, at that time also demanded that on this occasion Milch would withdraw from the Luftwaffe Ministry and from the Service as such altogether.
Q Do you know if at the time the relationship between Goering and Milch was a bad one?
A The relationship between Goering and Milch was known to me from 1942 on as a bad one. Goering did not like to have in his surroundings collaborators who were very strong. He liked it much more to have people who were harmless like Koerner who was the permanent representative of the four-year plan, and Milch was the type of very intelligent and very capable collaborator who, of course, on the other hand, was not so easy to direct as Goering wanted him to be.
Q Yes. Please go ahead.
A Well, furthermore, Goering did not trust the close cooperation with Milch. He asked Milch lots of times to keep a certain distance, which, of course in the sense of the war necessities and tasks would have been a mistake.
Q. Do you know of attempts of Goering at the time to start a trial against Milch because he failed in certain fields?
A. No. Unfortunately I do not know it in that way.
Q. Is it known to you that Milch in the beginning of 1943 explained to Hitler very clearly that the war was over and lost?
A. Yes, indeed. I was not present at that particular meeting. However, Milch told me a few days later that he visited Hitler in order to talk about his work at Stalingrad, and during that particular occasion he told him the impressions he had, and he informed him that the war was lost. Thereupon, according to what Milch says, Hitler is to have been very nervous and he interrupted the conversation light away.
Q. Is it known to you that Milch was a decisive enemy in the war against Russia?
A. No, I did not know that because at that time when I was connected with Milch the war was almost over.
Q. Is it known to you that Milch proposed to Hitler to sign a peace term with the six states, with the occupied territories?
A. Such plans occurred from time to time and they were discussed. I know that Milch was one of the men who was for such plans; I mean he did that with Hitler.
JUDGE MUSSMANO: I would propose, Dr. Bergold, that when you refer to any particular episode if the date is not obvious that you supply at least an approximate date so that we can place it in the chronology of events.
DR. BERGOLD: This also was around 1943. That was in connection with the declaration that the war was lost.
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Is it known to you that Hitler considered Milch a State enemy towards the end of the war?
A. In February, 1945, I wanted to make Milch my deputy in that particular staff which had been organized at that, time, The Traffic Staff.
Hitler thereupon called me to his headquarters in order to tell me that Milch should in no case be allowed any influence in that particular form and shape.
1182(a) Thereupon I told Hitler that I wanted to know the reasons for his remark, whereupon Hitler did not tell me the reasons.
He told me that he himself had certain material from Kaltenbrunner and that material would absolutely suffice; that, furthermore, Milch should not have such a task or should not execute such a task.
Q. Did you warn Milch of Kaltenbrunner and Hitler?
A. Yes, I did, of course.
Q. After Milch's resignation from the Air Ministry, you asked for a deputy. Why did you do that?
A. In June of 1944 Milch became my constant deputy in the Ministry because Goering asked that Milch resign from the Aviation Ministry, and I did not want Milch to have such a loss of prestige towards the outside, in which position he finally arrived when Milch resigned from his position in those offices, and I didn't want to have that because Milch during the previous years was very loyal towards me on all friction points which occurred from the confidence, and he avoided those points.
Q. Why didn't you want him to be without employment, I mean without office?
A. Yes, without office, because Milch would have been subdued to the attacks of Goering would he not have had a certain job some place or a certain office.
Q. In other words, it was a sort of protective measures of yours, wasn't it?
A. Yes. It appeared important to me that Milch be protected in that particular way although there were no particular symptoms for that.
Q. Did he ever appear practically in that particular position?
A. No. When the announcement of his steady deputy was known, I said the same time that my chiefs of offices were to carry on their duties immediately with me. That is, in other words, directly with me, which in itself meant that Milch was not a steady deputy, a constant deputy.
I remark this particular passage because Milch came to see me after the particular discussion and told me that I shouldn't have put him in such a bad light.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: After your conversation with Hitler regarding him, did you take him into your confidence?
THE WITNESS: I am afraid I didn't quite understand that question.
1183(a) Court No. 2 - Take 4 (BK) Will you repeat it, please?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You related earlier how Hitler had spoken to you regarding Milch. Was Milch at that time already your deputy?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: And the phrase "state enemy" was used. Now just what do you mean by that phrase?
THE WITNESS: I did not use the word "state enemy".
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, it came through the microphone, through the earphone.
THE WITNESS: Well, the word "state fine" was not used during this discussion.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: "State enemy", was that expression not used?
DR. BERGOLD: No. That was only the way I used it. In Germany people against the regime were called "state enemies".
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, did Hitler so regard Milch?
THE WITNESS: No, he didn't show that. In other words, he didn't tell me the reasons for feeling that way towards Milch but he was against Milch. He was sort of prejudiced against Milch.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Now, the last question, Mr. witness. Is it correct that your Chief of Office, Sauer, concerning the Traffic Staff meeting reported to Goering personally and not to Milch?
A That is absolutely correct and I am sure that Brauchitsch, who was Goering's adjutant, could confirm that because for the greatest part it happened during my sickness. Sauer at that particular time knew or succeeded in being considered by both Hitler and Goering so that the conferences or sessions which took place with Goering Court No. 2 - Take 4 (BK) concerning the activities of the Jaegerstab or the Fighter Staff often took place without the participation or invitation of Milch, which, of course, put Milch in a bad position and he didn't like it.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, for the time being, at least I am through with my questions. However, when the prosecution is through with its questions, I would appreciate it very much if I could put any further 1184 a Court No. 2 - Take 4 (BK) questions forth should it be necessary, following the practice of this Tribunal.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You will be permitted to re-examine if you so wish.
MR. DENNEY: He has got some notes here in German which Dr. Bergold's secretary made the last time that I just want to check.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes, certainly.
(A recess was taken.)
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, I have no questions of the witness.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I have only the technical question. These minutes that were taken today, how can they be introduced to the Tribunal? I presume that they have to be signed by Speer.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Oh, no. No. The witness took the oath and the testimony was stenographically recorded so that all you need to do during the trial is to read into the record such portions of the testimony taken today as you regard as relevant and of importance to your case.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, Your Honor. Mr. Denney this morning, however, thought that this had to be translated into the English at first before I can introduce it.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Oh, well, that is obvious. Well you don't need to translate it. We have the English translation.
DR. BERGOLD: Then, of course, we don't have to. I understood Mr. Denney to say, that is, the German records had to be retranslated into English.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor please, I made no such statement. The only thing I talked to him about was exhibits that we had used, part or all of which we had made available to him in German and if he wants to use an additional part Court No. 2 - Take 4 (BK) of an exhibit in German he has to furnish the Court and us and the stenographers and the interpreters with an English translation of it.
DR. BERGOLD: That was a misunderstanding on my part. I thought Mr. Denney was talking about the examination.
MR. DENNEY: No. I mean because we have an English record now.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That is the great advantage of having this interrogation here with the entire court machinery functioning.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you.
1185 a Court No. 2 - Take 4 (BK)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Bergold, I will allow you three or four minutes, as much time as reasonably is in order, to glance over your minutes, your records, to make certain that you still don't have something else you want to ask, because it would be well if we could finish it up entirely, you see.
DR. BERGOLD: Indeed, Your Honor. Yes, indeed. I have one further question to the witness, if you don't mind.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q During the examination on Friday, in my records and as far as I can see also in the English records, there was a certain formulation which reads as follows: "The Jaegerstab was formed on the 1st of March 1944 by Milch." I don't believe that is quite correct.
A Yes. That must be a mistake which also occurred in the Central Planning meeting and undoubtedly it should read "Speer".
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, indeed. That is all. I have no further questions.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Now it is clear to you, I suppose, that whatever record you made of the first interrogation may not be introduced in evidence.
DR. BERGOLD: Noin.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: - because it is very fragmentary and incomplete.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, indeed. I don't want to do that anyway. I just wanted to clear that matter up because there was sort of a discussion a few minutes ago. Thank you very much, Your Honor. That is all. That is all.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well.
(The court adjourned at 1445 hours.)