Q The instructions regarding the employment and treatment of foreign workers before your coming into office as a minister, are they known to you?
A No, not from knowledge obtained at that time.
Q Did you have any possibilities to check secret orders of Himmler regarding the treatment of foreign workers or treatment of concentration camp inmates and get to know them?
A No, that was quite out of the question.
Q Was that out of the question for anyone or just for you; in other words, what about Milch?
A Well, it's safe to assume that he had no more possibility to get any facts than I had.
Q Did Rosenberg give you any information regarding the treatment of Eastern workers?
A No.
Q What do you know about the question of what and of how and to what extent the foreign workers came to Germany voluntarily?
A From the Spring until the Autumn of 1942, foreign laborers came to Germany voluntarily, without any doubt. From Autumn till Spring -from Autumn '42 to 1943, we were concerned with a period of transition. During that time, workers did come voluntarily because Germany's military successes were still making a great impression on them and because Germany, during that period, was promising them a better life than their own home country. These were the reasons which we were told about at that particular period. In February and March 1943; there was a distinct change in the attitude of these people which could be attributed to the fact that, to begin with, Stalingrad was considered to be a turning point in the war; and secondly, the air attacks taking place nightly by the RAF-- the Royal Air Force -- were so concentrated that they weren't particularly keen in coming to Germany. So that on February and March 1943 on, and to an ever increasing degree, there was resistance against transfer to Germany by the worker. This led to, in turn, that in the occupied territories there Court No. 2 Take 2 (DJG) was considerable disquiet when Sauckel was calling up particular groups.
It was characteristic for Sauckel to operate with large figures and to compose big programs, and to call up, quite generously in France, anything up to three or four or five age groups. This had the consequence for me that the age groups which had been called up did not comply with the call-up, but their majority disappeared from factories abroad; whereas, Sauckel, on the other hand, was not in any position to lay a hand upon these workers. For this purpose, he would have to have had the help of the police authorities in France, which of course were not particularly interested in catching up with these workers. Through this, in both Milch's and my own opinion, the resistance movements in the different countries were rendered a most tremendous service in this matter. We told Sauckel quite openly that he was only going to get into a meddle with the leaders of the resistance movements abroad, but certainly not with us, and in his excitement, Sauckel actually complained about this remark in the meeting which, I think, was on the first of March 1944 of the Central Planning Board. The results were, in fact, such that the disadvantages which ensued for us in occupied territories in relation to production, with which both Milch and I were concerned with, were greater than the advantages put to use by workers who came to Germany; and thus we drew attention to the workers still available in Germany, which in turn, produced a plan according to which occupied territories would have their production increased. Incidentally, in keeping with the character of the country concerned which needed no groat reorganization of consumer goods mostly, and that with the help of these workers and by means of this transfer to France, Belgium, Holland and Czechoslovakia, German production should be made free -- available -- and that this German production could then be stopped so that in Germany, not only workers, but also factory space should become available; and apart from the factory space, men would be trained as leaders for these factories. Apart from this, power which had become very scarce in Germany at that time and transport possibilities too, could be transferred to the armament program in occupied territories; on the other hand, production, beginning with coal, might be increased by 20 to 30 percent without having reached a peace-time peak figure.
It is perfectly clear that from my own point of view, this was a perfectly sober plan which brought great advantages to Milch and myself; and in order to be able to carry this out, I had the entire production handed ever to me by Funk. A few days later, there was a conference with the French production minister, Michelon , during which this program was agreed upon by means of a handshake. This program produced the so-called blocked industries, Sperrbetriebe, and in every one of these blocked industries, there was a poster displayed which had my signature on it stating that every worker employed in such factories was safe from becoming transferred to Germany, even if the age group concerned was called up by Sauckel.
Q Is it known to you that the French government published a decree dealing with labor service in Germany to men in France?
A Yes, I know that.
Q Now about this calling up by age groups by Sauckel, were they carried out on the strength of that decree or was there another decree applicable?
A That I can't tell you in detail. You'd have to ask Timm.
Q Through what channel did you hear that in the Fall of 1943 workers became reluctant about coming to Germany?
A Well, that I cannot tell you now by memory. That must have come from all sorts of sources.
May I add that in principle, it was through military commanders who were mostly concerned about the consequences of Sauckel's labor policy and opposed it.
Q Did these military commanders have any official contact with you?
A No, and it certainly wasn't directly from these military commanders that I heard it. It was through my outside agencies in France and Belgium who naturally were in contact and collaborated with military commanders.
Q Did you hear through this or any other channel about inhumane 1167A acts in connection with the recruitment and signing up of such foreign workers?
A No, I didn't receive reports. There were always attempts to turn the draft, which was nothing other than a call-up, into an act or force of coercion; but, the carrying through of such attempts was always prevented by military commanders because such actions produced the most tremendous upset in the country concerned. If such apprehension was avoided, then excesses were usually mentioned which had actually happened, but they wore always described as individual cases which had always been stopped.
Q Then I can say, if I understood you correctly, that the drafting of an age group did not mean the call-up -- the unavoidable call-up-for that age group?
A Because the definition of the word "force" or "coercion" is a very difficult one. It was always put to me during interrogations that these workers were brought to Germany against their will, and I found that it was an excellent definition. That settled the question correctly -- the question of draft and call-up. The conception of force, of course goes beyond that quite a bit. I consider that the employment of force means that they were gotten hold of by the police or gotten hold of by the military authorities, and then they would remain behind barbed wires when they got to Germany. That, in my firm opinion, was not the situation in the labor assignment program.
Q Do you know of a statement of Sauckel's, according to which, out of five million workers, only about two hundred thousand came to Germany voluntarily? That is true, isn't it?
A Well, I only heard about it at the trial here because I happened to be present.
Q Considering your knowledge of the situation, are you of the opinion that the statement is true or not?
A The figure of two hundred thousand appears to me to be a very low one; but now the question arises, of course -- or let's put it this way.
It seemed very low to me because up to the Spring of '43, a very large percentage came voluntarily. Naturally one can well imagine that a number of these people who came voluntarily had later returned again to their old territories since their contracts did not run for an indefinite time, but were limited to a certain period; and some of these contracts certainly had ended by March 1944 so that the very portion who had come voluntarily at the beginning had long gone back to their home countries. Naturally, I can't tell you, from my own knowledge, whether the figure is correct or not.
Q. But then, Sauckel went on to say, in this meeting, that never once had there been a labor program carried out in France based on voluntary recruitment. Is that statement correct?
A. I cannot recollect that this was ever mentioned at a meeting.
Q. Unfortunately, I haven't got the document yet. It was only on Saturday that I received records of the 45th Meeting. But I hope that after the lunch break, I will be in a position to put this record before you. Maybe we can put the question aside until then.
A. Well, anyway, I shall not be able to answer the question on the strength of my own knowledge since it is not known to me which contracts were made by Sauckel, individually speaking. The details which would be essential to gain such knowledge are not at my disposal.
Naturally, apart from the draft for labor for individual age groups, there was always the possibility of coming to Germany on a voluntary basis. I had always assumed -- but, of course, this may be only an assumption-- that during the early period until Spring '43 voluntary conclusion of a contract had been used extensively for work in Germany, which I stated previously.
Q. Is it known to you that there had been an agreement -- I have asked you that before -- according to which a prisoner of war could be released if a French worker declared, his willingness to go to Germany?
A. I think I have answered that, haven't I?
Q. I am not quite sure as to whether it has been answered or not.
A. Yes, I have answered it.
Q. Thank you very much.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Herr Speer, you said that force was not in the labor program. You mean by that that you didn't actually outline a system of force --physical force -- to be employed in the obtaining of these foreigners but do you know whether, as a matter of fact, that force in some instances was employed?
A. Surely, and certainly, attempted force must have been in existence, force against such laborers who did not report to the authorities because of the draft law, so that in individual cases, quite certainly force must have been employed; but it is unknown to me just what percentage has been recruited by means of such coercion or force because the agencies which were available for this purpose -- in other words, their own police -- no doubt failed to carry out such force. It didn't carry out the orders to employ such force -- orders which came from the French Government. I don't know whether this would answer your question, sir.
A. Yes, that answers my question.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, do you know that force was employed? Did you know that then or had you only learned that later or now?
A. In this sense, as I have just stated now, I must say that I knew it then. Only the examples which are being mentioned here so often: the surrounding 1170-A of the cinema, for instance; raids of churches, and all that sort of thing -- those are matters which have only become known to me to that extent right here.
From the point of view of production, of course, this was absolutely nonsensical, because if one had extended that system, laborers would have been gotten who would have been incapable of producing any considerable production. And apart from the positive outcome, that matter would have served the resistance movement once again.
Q. Witness, do you know of an order by Hitler dated 1941 or '42, according to which, upon the evacuation of certain territories in Russia, male population between their 15th and 60th year should have been taken tack by military authorities?
A. No, I do not know of any such order. No doubt, Hitler often made such statements saying that sort of thing was necessary, but anyone who knew about our retreats knew that such a plan could not have been carried out since the troops were happy if they could manage to come back alive. Not even Russian prisoners of war could be brought back; not even for that did we have time and possibilities.
Q. Witness, previously you stated that you consider Sauckel's statements of figures incorrect. What was the opinion about these figures?
A. We shared the opinion that they were considerably exaggerated. If I may add as a detail, let me say that, for instance, according to Sauckel's report he said that during nine months 60 or 75 percent of all workers in the army rearmament program had been replaced by him, which was an impossibility in practice. There wasn't the capacity to train even a fraction of these people. It would have meant an absolute catastrophe to the rearmament program if I had had more than 50 percent of new workers, but such a report had to be passed on to Sauckel and, of course, we didn't exactly fall in love with it.
Q. Can you tell me what the air armament situation was? I wish to withdraw a question. That is the wrong question. Do you know if Milch encountered difficulties when he tried to carry out suitable air armament programs from Goering or any other people concerned in such a matter?
A. I know an awful lot about that. I think I could make a speech lasting for several hours about that.
Q. I just want to know one or two details. What were the leading difficulties which he ran into?
A. Well, in the main, the reason was that Milch, from the summer of 1942 onwards, desired reorganization of the entire air construction program in favor of the fighters, whereas Hitler, Goering, and also the Chief of the General Staff were interested in bomber aircraft and adhered to that plan. This argument continued until March 1944. And even as late as March '44 we had a mixed program for bombers and fighters which, considering the situation, could not by any means be justified; and it was only during the meeting at the Obersalzberg when Sauer and Milch were present that Hitler recognized the fact that fighters should have priority over bombers and that the bomber production should be stopped, but even that only lasted for a brief period. Six or eight weeks later, in June or July 1944, Goering and Hitler were once again so optimistic that they withdrew their decision -- this earlier decision -- and once again ordered bomber production to come into effect.
Q. So that it would be right to say that Milch objected to too large a bomber force during the entire period when you collaborated with him?
A. That is obvious. It's the result of the general decision which in turn was due to the superior strength of the foreign aircraft production.
Q. In one of the records -- in one of the minutes of the meetings -- Milch is suggesting that foreign workers should be given a premium of one mark a day if they made particularly great efforts. For the economic situation in Germany at that time was that a lot or was it a little?
A. That certainly wasn't very much - one mark a day - but it was a temptation for a worker. But as far as I can remember, there was something connected with this action; namely, that workers, together with this bonus, should be enabled to actually buy something in the canteens at their work, and that was an important point because the situation,even at that time, was such that everyone had enough money which one couldn't transfer into goods.
Q.Did any instructions originating from Milch become known to you Court No. 2 - Take 2 (GES) -- instructions given to subordinates of his or given to the industry, according to which he advocated murder or hanging or shooting or cruelties against foreign workers or prisoners of war?
A. No.
Q. Considering your knowledge of Milch's character, would you consider such an order a probability?
A. I do not consider it a probability but I do consider it probable that at one time or another he may have made a remark, typical for Milch. Milch, you see, was a little choleric and very outspoken, but if he did speak severely, then according to my recollection it was usually directed against someone present at the meeting, particularly people from his own ministry who were working directly with him and who were told that if they didn't meet with his requirements then they'd be put before court martial.
Q. Was Milch well-known for making severe statements?
A. Yes, he was very well-known for that.
Q. Did anyone take these outspoken comments of his seriously?
A. Well, they were taken seriously in as far as one knew that Milch's patience had come to an end, but I do recall that at the end of these meetings Milch somehow or other made up with the people in question, because it was his own impression that he had gone too far in the manner with which he expressed himself in the meeting.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Will this be a convenient time to break off? I might indicate that our program for this afternoon will be like this: we will reconvene at one-thirty and carry through to about three--fifteen. Then, I have an appointment which will keep me occupied until four o'clock and if we have not finished by three-fifteen we will return at four o'clock. If it is convenient to Mr. Denney and to you, we will then carry on until we finish the job because I think we will want to finish it today.
DR. BERGOLD: Mr. President, I have only got one request. By an order of the Tribunal I may speak to Milch in the interval, but I shall have to eat. Therefore, may I ask not to reconvene at one--thirty Court No. 2- Take 3 (GES) but at one-forty-five in order for me to have time to converse with Milch briefly.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That is entirely satisfactory. We will then give you 1173-a Court No. 2 - Take 2 - MN enough time.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes sir, that will give me plenty of time. Thank you.
( A recess was taken until 1345 hours)
AFTERNOON SESSION
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may proceed, Dr. Bergold.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, in this morning's session you mentioned the severe utterances of Milch. Do you know whether after having made such severe utterances he also took the correspond ing measures as regards courts martial and that the decree for death sentences was carried through?
A. From my own knowledge I cannot say so. In the Luftwaffe a few court martial trials were carried through industrialists. I remember one case, but I do not believe it will be of interest to you. However, in my opinion that case was absolutely justified.
Q. Who ordered the trial? Don't you know, or do you Know?
A. In the criminal law procedure, I have too little experience. There were actual infractions of law. For instance a works manager built for himself a private shelter out of material which had been made available for war purposes.
Q. Thank you. Did Milch bring anyone into a concentration camp as far as you know?
A. Not according to my knowledge.
Q. Did the Jaegerstab itself recruit foreign workers in the occupied territories?
A. No. It could not do it because it had no executive agencies for it.
Q. At one time the Central Planning Board made a special steel contingent available to the Jaegerstab, especially sheet steel. Were they intended for airplane construction for OT construction, for the SS etc.?
A. I cannot say that from these statements because sheet steel was also used in the construction of air planes, for the protection of the pilots against munition, when he was shot at.
Also, during the last phase of the war, airplanes were built from light-weight sheet steel.
Q. Was Milch a member of the Jaegerstab?
1175 - a Court No. 3 - Take 3 (GES)
A. That, too, I cannot answer correctly. In any case, he had a direct representative in the Jaegerstab until the time of his resignation from the Ministry in April of 1944.
Q. Who established the building program for the air industry in the early part of the war?.
A. Various phases should be distinguished there. From September, 1939, on I placed my organization which was concerned with new constructions in Nurnberg and Berlin at the disposal of air armament. In the course of time this staff carried out construction work for air armament in an increasing measure so that in the year 1941 one may perhaps say that the new construction for air armament were in most pant carried out by my organization. Do you want a further development of it?
Q. No. I am now placing before you the minutes of the meeting of 27 April 1942 of the Central Planning Board which is contained in document book number 33 of the English book. At this meeting, it was discussed that Sauckel should have am influence on the Stalag. I now ask you to note the reply of Milch in regard to this desire of Sauckel. I shall ask you a question relative to it.
I ask you to tell me whether that suggestion on the part of Milch was a serious one or what other opinion you have about it.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: In the minutes was there a reference which would indicate what this suggestion consisted of?
DR. BERGOLD: A suggestion to the effect that the Stalag should come under the supervision of Sauckel. Thereupon, he declared he has no people.
"MILCH: Then they must be put into uniform."
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I did not know that you made reference to the preceding question.
Q. Which meeting is it? The 32nd one?
A. It does not say anything on it. Date 30 October 1942.
Q. There is no number on it. Date 30 October, 1942. The 21st meeting.
Court No. 2 - take 3 (GES)
A. I may call to your attention the following: This may also involve an error in that only one page of the meeting of 30 October 1942 is involved, but then there is one other -
This remark of Milch I understand to mean that he wanted to have an immediate channel of authority for Sauckel direct to the Stalag. Well, it should be clear to him that that was not possible, Stalag being a purely military organization to be under Sauckel's direct order. That is one of the typical examples of the language used in such a meeting where one does not weigh very carefully every single word. I believe, therefore, that anyone who reads minutes of such a meeting covering 70 or 80 pages comes to the conclusion that many remarks are contained therein which do not really make very much senses.
Q. As regards Sauckel's statements on the question of workers, did Hitler place more confidence in you or in Sauckel?
A. I am sorry that unfortunately he placed more in Sauckel. Sauckel not only exerted a great influence on him, but Sauckel's line was at the same time the inner line of Hitler himself.
Q. Did not Hitler himself on the basis of the statements made by Sauckel in figures criticize you because you did not produce as much as would be justified in view of the number of workers which Sauckel had allegedly made available to you?
A. Frankly speaking, I do not quite understand the question.
Q. I repeat.
A. Would you formulate the question differently?
Q. Did Hitler declare to you you should be able to produce much more in your sector because you had the great number of workers which Sauckel had reported?
A. That is correct, but not without qualification. The most important bottleneck with which we had to contend was that of raw materials and individual parts which had to be delivered. An increase in armament depended on it.
Take 3
Q Is it correct that in your differences of opinion with Sauckel Milch asked repeatedly to assist you?
A That is correct.
Q In your discussions with Hitler did you prepare Fuehrer Meeting Minutes? To whom did you send copies of the minutes?
A In principle these minutes were not sent to anybody. After the meeting, I dictated the minutes from memory and then they went to the Central Office. The Central Office then decided to whom letters were to be written on individual points, in the form of extracts from the minutes.
Q Is it correct that on the periphery of the minutes on the Fuehrer meetings, notations were always made on the different agencies to whom copies were to be sent -- these remarks?
A Yes.
Q In the minutes of a Fuehrer meeting of 29 September 1942, it is stated: "Fuehrer's attention called to the fact that armament production in concentration camps impossible." Instead three to five per cent of the weapons produced by them should be made available to the SS Divisions. What did your armament have to do with this concentration camp production?
A That is not the correct working if I may say so. May I have the original text?
Q Yes.
A If you do not find it, we shall continue, it is not so important.
Q For the time being, I will withdraw my question. Perhaps I may put it this way: Did you know that Himmler was planning on armament production in concentration camps?
A The minutes of September, 1942, say that Himmler wanted to erect armament factories in his concentration camps and my counterproposal which had been approved by Hitler was to erect small camps in the vicinity of factories already existing and to put the workers to work there. This was in order to eliminate Himmler's influence on the Take 3 armament program.
The sentences which you quoted, are a few sentences only which do not give the context. In my opinion that is clearly shown from the text.
Q Was Milch present during that discussion?
A It might be presumed but from recollection, I cannot tell.
Q That should be shown by the minutes.
A No. Not necessarily.
Q Do you know whether Milch went from Goering to Hitler without permission?
A Goering did not like Milch to go to Hitler. In the beginning of the existence of the Central Planning Board, I took Milch to see Hitler once or twice and thereupon, an order came out along that line. The word "order" is perhaps too strong in my opinion.
Q During the time when you were sick, Milch was once expected to give a report to Hitler on the general situation for the Central Planning Board. What does the idea "general situation" mean in this connection?
AAlso during my sickness, a meeting took place in the Central Planning Board on the subject of building projects of long-range character in order to determine that we had already released by far too many structures of a long-range character. That is connected with what I said this morning. We thereby wanted to show to Hitler and Goering at the same time that an additional burden on the building industry with building projects of a long-range character was an impossibility. The result of the meeting was that the constructions which were released represented a building period of three to four years.
Q Aside from this occurrence, was Milch at any time your deputy on building questions.
A No. He also was not a representative in building questions along that line because that was a task for the Central Planning Board to eliminate if necessary construction work of a long-range character.
Take 3 My task as a General Plenipotentiary of the Building Industry only asked for me to determine that these building projects of long-range character had assumed proportions for which responsibility could not be taken.
Q Thank you. Is it known to you that in the year 1943 or 1944, I do know which it is exactly at this moment, that Milch criticized Hitler because he had asked for the building of a new Fuehrer headquarters in Silesia, a quantity of cement equal to that which had been made available for the population for the construction of air raid shelters?
A That is correct.
Q Do you know that it was customary in a ministry in Germany to write a letter in the "I" style of the Minister even if the letter was written by an office such as the Chief of Office of a Minister?
A That was customary, but not in my Ministry.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: How would you know the practice?
THE WITNESS: Because I was often amazed and could not understand why letters of subordinates were written on letterheads of the Minister and written in "I" style. I asked the Chief of the Central Office. He said it was an old established practice. I thought it so ridiculous, I discontinued the practice.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q I now refer to the aspirations of Milch to resign from his offices. Do you know when General Milch resigned as Generalluftzeugmeister or when he was made to resign?
A Milch gave up his position as State Secretary in the Air Ministry and as Generalluftzeugmeister officially on August 1, 1944. However, practically he no longer occupied and exerted his duties beginning with the day when the transfer of air armament to my Ministry had been ordered by Goering. From that time on he merely occupied himself with the involved in transferring.