Q This can clearly be seen from the contents. However, we have certain doubts about that. Witness, was this experiment under particularly difficult circumstances experimental circumstances which were out of the normal series of experiments?
A Yes. Very often we carried out self-experiments besides the others - in order to carry out the observation on ourselves and that experiment was particularly different from all of the others because with oxygen we stayed at an altitude of 13,000 motors and we stayed there for quite a while.
Q In other words, you were still conscious or did you become unconscious?
A Yes. In that experiment I did become unconscious. However, that is an accident that does happen sometimes.
Q The other experiments which you described in that report, they were carried out so that the experimental subject after it had attained the presumed altitude had taken off the oxygen mask and then became unconscious?
A Yes, that was the reason of the experiments because we wanted to see what would happen after they had suffered a lack of oxygen.
Q When you climb up to that height you wanted to attain did you have the pressure pains which you felt during your experiments on yourself?
A No, these pressure pains did not occur because of the total time we were up in that altitude was shorter and, of course, because the experimental subjects did not have an oxygen mask and therefore became unconscious right away. Tho most important thing, however, is the time, yes.
Q Now, I shall come back to my first question; in the beginning before you carried out these experiments did you carry out self-experiments up to 17,000 meters?
A Yes.
Q Your experimental subject, did they ever mention to you that they had special physical pains during the experiments or didn't you ever ask the experimental subjects?
A Yes, I did. Of course, we did, during the experiments as it was presumed there was no pain whatsoever.
Once in a while when climbing down the 1025 a ears were hurting and then, furthermore, it was seen that the experimental subject was pointing to his ears and then, of course, we started climbing down so much slower or reducing the pressure much slower.
Q There was only a certain buzz in your ears or pressure?
A Yes, it was a pressure of the ear-drum as minors feel it going down the mines.
Q In other words, this may happen to any civilian going up the mountain? In a train?
A Yes, for these pains occur in particular also when small altitudes like 3,000 motors are reached.
Q Witness, in your report a sinking experiment from 20,000 meters is described which took quite a while and then on page 15 it says "'37th minutes reacts to pain pain stimuli." What pain stimuli? Were those pain stimuli which were derived from the experiment? Or did you make a little test-experiment on him?
A Yes, we carried them out in the way a medical examination is carried out, namely, in order to examine the pain stimuli we point at the various parts of the body with a pencil and we want to know if the experimental subject can tell the difference between the pointed part of the pencil and the stem of the pencil, in order to find out what exactly is being felt. That can also be seen in the expression "pain stimuli." One gives pain stimuli to find out what their reaction is to that.
Q In other words, it is not a question here of carrying out tortures or cruelties of the subject, do you?
A No.
Q Such experiments, are they always carried out by all of the physicians?
Various physicians, etc?
A. Yes. This is part of every neurological examination of people who are sick.
Q. Witness, in this report you stated that there were no death cases in your experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this correct as regards this report or were there death cases at all and if there were any death 1026(a) Cases how did they happen?
In what framework?
A The statement is correct because otherwise I would not have written it in that report. At that time, of course, there was no reason whatsoever to keep it secret -- keep such a death case a seccret and, furthermore, the whole technical development in this field which we carried out--which was prepare with these experiment would have led to wrong conclusions if a death case would have been kept a secret.
A Witness, it has been stated that this Mr. Rascher had many death cases during experiments.
A Yes.
Q Were these experiments which were carried out the framework of the Luftwaffe experiments or what kind of experiments were they?
A Those were experiments which Rascher carried out behind my back, for the greatest part at least, namely, upon orders by Himmler who had given him a special mission apart from these experiments. Then later on Rascher also had a death case during my presence there and as he did not pay any attention to my objection I reported the incident to Dr. Ruff in Berlin and he took the necessary stops in order to conclude the experiments as soon as possible.
Q Witness, you just said in your presence. Wasn't that an experiment within the framework of this report?
A No, it was an experiment which was completely outside of this framework of the experiments to save people from high altitude.
Q Was that an experiments within the framework of Rascher's experiments?
A When I asked Rascher what he had in view with these experiments, not only with these lethal but also with all of the other experiments which he carried out, he told me that these experiments had been ordered him by Himmler and that he wanted to rehabilitate himself and that these experiments were of no concern to him. Furthermore, he told me to keep it a secret by showing me a telegram of Himmler's in which this was expressed that nobody was supposed to knew about these experiments and, furthermore, as it was usual I had to sign a special paper personally that we had to keep everything that wont on 1027-A there a secret.
Q. "Witness, in those experiments carried out by you which were carried out within the framework of this report, during those experiments did the inmates ever have any physical injury?
A. No. The inmates were always examined before the experiments. We also made an electrocardiogram and that cardiogram was repeated after the conclusion of the experiment and by comparing the two electrocardiograms which will also show the smallest injury done to a human body, we saw that no injury resulted from these experiments.
Q. Witness, what were you told with respect to the concentration camp inmates, namely, with respect to the question if they came voluntarily or upon order?
A. I have to add a few more things. During the first proposal Dr. Ruff made in that respect, particularly referring to questions of saving people from high altitude, we spoke that these experiments be carried out on people who were sentenced to death or those who were sentenced to long jail terms, who had been at our disposal voluntarily. That was the reason why I agreed to carry out these experiments and this was a natural prerequisite for me. All of these experiments were always carried out on male volunteers. That is, students, doctors and other collaborators of ours and it was the Luftwaffe Institute that was interested in these experiments and it is important for an experiment that the experimental subject also cooperates and it is necessary that he does not resist mentally and that he tells the truth about what they feel during such an experiment. We were always dependent upon some sort of cooperation on the part of the experimental subject. Furthermore, we were dependent on the experimental subjects because we can't do everything, necessary ourselves and particularly in these high altitude experiments, one is unconscious in the decisive moments. That was one of the prerequisites by which I went to Munich to the Weltz Institute where I met Dr. Rascher for the first time.
Rascher also spoke of people who had been sentenced to death who had volunteered for these experiments; and he furthermore showed me a letter of Himmler during these conversations which gave him the necessary authorization for the execution of the experiments. Then there was a conference in Dachau itself where we decided that Rascher in cooperation with the camp commandant would call or select a number of experimental subjects. We requested right from the start that the people had to be healthy and of about the same age as our aviators, that is, between 20 and 35 years of age. They should be in good physical condition, and they had to get good food so that the experiments could be comparable with the healthy Luftwaffe personnel. The camp commandant said that Rascher was to select these people, from those people who volunteered, and he also told us the further details concerning food, cigarettes, etc., etc. Then I spoke with the experimental subjects myself, who also confirmed the fact. The reasons differed with everyone of these individuals, but as a whole they had volunteered for these experiments. And finally the whole behavior of these people was such that one could notice that they were actually cooperating.
Q. Thank you. Witness, did you ever have the impression, not only an assumption, but I mean an incident from which you could understand that Milch knew all the details about these experiments?
A. I am afraid I can't say a thing about that, because even though I know the documents now, it is difficult for me to tell. I know that during the experiments and after the experiments when I wrote out the reports myself, the name Milch was never mentioned in that Particular direction, and the first time where I heard that Milch had to know about these experiments Was when the film was to be shown at the RLM. That happened in the following manner, namely at that time I had just gone a journey, and a letter was forwarded to me which informed me that on the 11th of September there would be a film show, with the Secretary of State Milch, and that for that reason I had to be at the RLM, or Air Ministry.
When I was in Berlin again, as far 1029 a as I can remember, Colonel Tende called me up and informed me of the fact again verbally and gave me the exact time at which I had to appear at the Air Ministry, according to these instructions Rascher and I appeared at the Air Ministry in the morning.
Q. And only from this happening or incident you know or you think that Milch knows about the experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. During that film show was Milch present?
A. No. Before the film show we were told that he would come very soon and then in the meantime they had started with the film show, and after the show we were told that the Secretary of State, Milch, had left Berlin or that he was with the Reichs Marshal. I don't remember exactly any more.
Q. Could the spectators of this film gather from this film that during these experiments certain cruelties occurred, or that there were death cases?
A. No. As far as death cases are concerned, in no case, because every experiment from the beginning to the end was obvious, from the beginning of the high altitude sickness up to the unconsciousness and up to the moment where they regained consciousness. In other words, you could see how the experimental subject lost consciousness and then regained consciousness.
Q. Could one see the idea that cruelties were being committed there?
A. That is very difficult to say, because I can't very well judge how such experiments would look, or rather, what kind of an impression it would leave on a layman. The experimental subjects were suffering cramps of the face, convulsions of the arms and the face which make certain grimasses visible. That is why it is very difficult to say what the effect of those people would be on a layman. It might affect a layman as an epileptic case or something similar to it and I really can't tell what kind of an impression a layman would get from such film shows.
Q. However, if there had been Luftwaffe personnel that had already 1030 (a) been submitted to such experiments, do you think they could understand that, or that they could come to such conclusions that there were cruelties?
A. For everyone who was submitted to such a low pressure chamber, or rather who had seen such a low pressure chamber, the sight of these convulsions and this unconsciousness is known to him from his own experience.
Q. Witness, when did the experiments stop and finish and when was the low pressure chamber sent to Adlershof from Dachau?
A. The low pressure chamber went back to Adlershof about towards the middle or the end of May; in any case, before Whitsuntide, Pentacote.
Q. Later on was this chamber put at the disposal of the SS experiment again?
A. No, later on we had those difficult situations and it was mainly so that the chamber was at Berlin when Rascher went to adlershof in order to write his report. And right at that time I was under a certain pressure. We asked for the chamber, or we got it back from Dachau, saying that we needed it very badly. The chamber was still there. We said, however, that we had to work on it. Some work had to be done on the chamber. I am sure that the chamber was lying around until august before it was used, and I was always afraid that Rascher might show up some day and would notice the chamber there. That he wanted the chamber is known to me. He repeatedly asked me to carry out some more experiments, to go with him, and I also know that according to Dr. Ruff that Himmler turned to Hippke or asked Hippke's assistance in that respect.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions to the witness. He is at the disposal of the Prosecution.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Witness, where did you study medicine?
A. In Berlin and in Innsbruck. I was not a soldier during the war.
Q When did you finish?
1031 (a)
A. I finished my state examination in 1935 in March.
Q. When did you enter the Wehrmacht?
A. I entered the Wehrmacht in 1936-37 for a period of two months. I had my basic training and before the war I had some more training. In the beginning of the war I was under the supervision of the reserve, and during the war I was under the supervision of the reserve, and during the war I was not a soldier.
Q. You were in the medical' department of the German army, were you not?
A. No.
Q. You were always in private practice?
A. I was an employee of the German experimental station for aviation.
Q. And did you take the Hippocratic oath?
A. No, I never took the Hippocratic oat. That was at the time when I finished my examination. That was in Berlin. It was not usual to take that oath, at least not officially.
Q. Where you a member of the party?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you join?
A. I joined in May, 1933.
Q. You got in early.
A. Well, yes, I joined the Party when quite a number of people joined the party.
Q. We are talking about the National Socialist Party.
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You told the Court that these people who were experimented on in Dachau were people who had been sentenced to death or long jail terms.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. So they didn't have to be somebody that may have been sentenced to death to be experimented on?
A. No, they didn't have to be.
Q. Now, you said a little later -- as a whole they volunteered for these experiments; what do mean by that; some of them did and some of then didn't?
A. I can't remember -- I can't quite remember to have said 'as a whole'.
Q. You may not remember it, but the statements was written down; and don't quibble; what do you mean by it?
A. No, the people always came as volunteers.
Q. Did you ask them when they came?
A. I spoke to a great number of these people, and I asked them personally; and as far as the other experimental subjects were concerned, we had aggreed ever since the beginning; and further more, Rascher told me that they had volunteered, that is.
Q. You didn't ask everybody who came there whether they were a volunteer or not; you know you didn't.
A. No, I didn't say I asked every one of them individually.
Q. You don't know whether they were all volunteers or not, of your own knowledge?
A. Well, I know that all the people I asked were volunteers because they told me so; and as far as the others are concerned, I believed it too, because Rascher told me so, and because we had agreed that with the camp commandant.
Q. You are speaking now of Dr. Rascher, that fine honorable man that killed people, you say. You were afraid later on to let Rascher get back the chambers, you said?
A. Yes, I didn't want him to carry out any more experiments.
Q. When did you first begin to suspect Rascher?
A. How do you mean that?
Q. Well, when did you begin to think that Rascher wasn't an honorable man; you began to worry about him; you said you didn't want to associate with him any more; he was a terrible fellow. When did you first begin to think that?
A. That was towards the end of April, after the death case.
Q. After the death case you say; that was the death case you saw?
A. Yes.
Q. You understood how to work all this equipment, didn't you?
A. What installations do you mean?
Q. The low pressure chamber.
A. Yes.
Q. You were thoroughly familiar with the running of that chamber, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You had experimented on yourself in it, hadn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You were connected with the institute for aviation medicine research , weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And some time later, in April, you and Rascher were there in the chamber and saw a man die; and what did you do about it?
A. That death case was reported to Berlin, to Dr. Ruff, by me.
Q. I am not talking about who you reported the death to. What did you do about it when the man was dying? I am asking you what you did.
A. I tried to stop Rascher from doing that, and I drew his attention to the danger that existed, and that, according to my opinion, the experiment should be stopped, but Rascher continued the experiment, so finally, death occurred.
Q. You and Rascher were by the chamber and somebody was there, and you knew all about the equipment, and you watched the indicators and the pressure valve, and you turned to Rascher and said the experiment should be discontinued immediately - the man is going to die. And Rascher didn't do anything, so you stood there and watched him die?
A. I drew Rascher's attention to the fact that there was a danger and that the man could die, and I told him to stop the experiment.
Q. Did he stop it? Answer the question. Did he stop it when you told him to stop it?
A. No.
Q. Did you stop it?
A. I couldn't stop it.
Q. Who did you report this to?
A. To Dr. Ruff.
Q. When?
A. Shortly after that incident. I went to Berlin for that purpose, for that reason, and I told that to Dr. Ruff.
Q. When was this; what was the date?
A. I can't tell you the date exactly; it was probably toward the end of April.
Q. Somebody had died - and all you know is that it was probably toward the end of April?
A. I can't tell you the date exactly.
Q. Who was this man who died? Was he a member of the Luftwaffe?
A. No, he was not a member of the Luftwaffe.
Q. No, you don't experiment on people like that when you are going to kill them. Who was he?
A. That was one of the inmates of the concentration camp.
Q. Did you make any inquiry about who he was afterwards?
A. No, I did not carry out any investigation.
Q. Did you talk to him before he went to the chamber and ask him if he volunteered?
A. I don't remember if I actually asked that man in particular.
Q. You don't know whether he volunteered or not, do you? Answer the Question. Do you know whether or not he volunteered?
A. I only know so far as Rascher told me.
Q. Do you know of your own knowledge that the man volunteered? We will stay here all day today and all day tomorrow until you answer that. Don't tell me what Dr. Rascher told you; what do you know?
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I am of the opinion that the way in which Mr. Denney just got excited is not the correct way to do, and I would appreciate if he could somewhat lower his blood pressure.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, I apparently got a little more excited about death than Dr. Bergold.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, the risk you wish to incur, that is your liability. I think/though that the witness has answered the question when he said that all he knows about it is what Rascher told him.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please.
Q. How many other deaths do you know about that took place in Dachau?
A. I know of two other death cases.
Q. Who was responsible for these?
A. Rascher.
Q. Were you there when they took place?
A. Yes, I was present.
Q. Did you warn him in those cases?
A. Before the experiment and during the experiment I couldn't quite realize that this would have been a lethal case, and, therefore, I did not warn him before the beginning of the experiment.
Q. Did you warn him during the experiment?
A. During the experiments I always observed the limit and I also warned Rascher to that effect, and I told him to be careful.
Q. Answer the question, witness. During the experiments did you warn him that the people were going to die?
A. I can't remember these experiments very well.
Q. You remember very well that in the first case, the case of the tailor, that you warned him there, and then you went to Berlin and reported to Dr. Ruff because you were so shocked by it; and now, at a later date, you tell me deaths have occurred. Did you warn him during these experiments?
A. Well, I would like to come back to the question; first, you said I mentioned here a tailor who had died. I don't know that; I don't even know if it was a tailor.
Q. I didn't say that you said it was a tailor. I didn't say he was a tailor. Somebody else said it was a tailor. I don't mean to say to you that you said anything about a tailor. We will call it experimental death number one, and let's not argue about that. Tell the Court in this second death did you tell Rascher to stop.
A. Well, yes, I am sure I told him that, if I could actually see that the experiments would be lethal. In other words, that the critical limit was attained, and that the experiment had to be stopped.
Q. You understood all the gadgets that were in the chamber, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were a medical man who was specializing in this work?
A. Yes.
Q. And you had seen somebody die when Rascher was working on him?
A. Yes.
Q. But you don't know whether or not you told him to stop?
A. As far as I can remember, the death that occurred was also very surprising to me, but I am sure that I always warned Rascher if the critical limit was actually reached.