neither my usual dictation initials nor those of my reporter are on the document, but down on the right side, at the end of the letter next to my rank, there is an initial unknown to me and not belonging to my inner staff. M. Dr. Furthermore, the writing next to the initial reads "Lieutenant General of the Waffen SS", and therefore the letter "Lieutenant" had to be crossed out by myself, for I had been promoted on 30 January 1942 to the rank of SS-Ober ruppenfuehrer and Commanding General of the Waffen SS. Every member of my staff, at that time had known that already for two and a half months, and was quite familiar with the fact that the rank of SS-Obergruppenfuehrer which was indicated correctly in the document corresponds and entitled to the grade "General of Waffen SS." Therefore the compose of this letter was not a military agency but the scientific agency "Das Ahnenerbe". As the contents were only pertaining to the prolongation of an already existing assignment, and as shortly before I had witnesses in Dachau that the prisoners had undoubtly voluunteered and were acting in their own interest, I had no reason, whatsoever, not to sign."
"The answering letter of Hippke of 7 May 1942 which was addressed to me, is another example, on the postal reception in the left lower corner of the letter the mark is "RF", meaning Reichsfuehrer SS, and not "CH. F." meaning Chief of the Personal Staff--Wolf. And in fact my usual handwritten initial "W" is not on the letter either. Therefore, this letter had not even been submitted ted to me.
"The telegram to General Field Marshal Milch ***** has apparently been sent off with simply my name under it, by Dr. Brandt for reasons of urgency and of geographical distance.
"The answering letter of Field Marshal Milch of 20 May 1942, addressed to me does not bear my handwritten initial "W", and has therefore not been submitted to me either.
"The letter of Dr. Rascher to Dr. Brandt of 20 June 1942 is also marked "RF" in the left lower corner of the postal reception stamp. As far as I 1018a recall I have net seen the work cf Rascher and Romberg on "Experiments for rescue or so great heights" which is mentioned in this letter.
Besides, this letter proves that Himmler had practically assumed the right to get the first report and that he decided, after a preliminary censoring, that Milch should receive reports of conferences and films on the results of the experiments and what he should get.
"The first paragraph of Milch's letter of thanks to Himmler of 31 August 1942 shows that at that time apparently everything was all right because otherwise lectures and films 'with Milch's gentlemen' would not have been conceivable and possible. As to the second paragraph I have to say that Milch contacted Himmler, mostly after longer intervals, for general discussion on the whole situation, on the condition of the armament industry, and on his constantly increasing worries and discrepancies with Goering."
I will skip a few sentences.
MR. DENNEY: I wonder would Dr. Bergold be good enough to read the balance of this paragraph.
DR. BERGOLD: "I always promoted with all means at my disposal the occasional meetings between Milch and Himmler. They took place quite informally at common meals or with a cup of coffee and a good cigar. They were extremely valuable for Himmler, who wanted to keep informed of everything while they were extremely important for Milch who had fallen in disgrace with Goering and for whom Himmler's backing was only a question of self-preservation."
"In Himmler's letter to Milch of 3 November 1942 on page 1, line 2, the words 'by SS Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff' are crossed out. This also proves that the experiments conducted at that time had not received Milch's attention through my persuasion, but only prolongations of assignment of minor importance on the request for Rascher's transfer from the Luftwaffe into the SS. Besides, this letter contains in the middle of the first and on the second page Himmler's admittal to assume personally and abne the responsibility for all experiments."
Your Honor, I wish to add here that the witness did not submit a letter to Milch - his own personal letter to Milch - and that is why he was left in confusion as to the fact that Himmler's letter was just a draft.
"The letter addressed to me on 23 November 1942 by von Herff, Chief of the SS personnel, confirms that I had now directed into the channels of the competent Chief of SS personnel, the transfer of Rascher from the Luftwaffe into the SS, transfer aimed at by the Reichsfuehrer SS. Unfortunately, Herff died on 6 September 1945 in the PW Camp No. 1 in England as a consequence of an apoplexy of the brain."
Shall we call a recess, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, and the Tribunal does not plan to sit this afternoon. You can continue the reading of these documents after the witnesses whom you will use on Friday and Monday testify. The Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until 0930 tomorrow corning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 14 February 1947.)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 14 February 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 2.
Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal wishes to announce that it will run until 1 o'clock today and reconvene at 2:30.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, may I call the witness Romberg since the first witness has been excused because of illness?
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will produce the witness Hans Romberg.
HANS WOLFGANG ROMBERG, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q What is your name?
A Hans Wolfgang Romberg.
Q Raise your right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, I would appreciate if you would speak slowly and, furthermore, I wish that you would make a pause after ovary question I ask you in order to enable the translators or interpreters to follow you. Would you tell this Tribunal your first name and last name.
A Hans Wolfgang Romberg.
Q When were you born?
A On the 15th of May, 1911.
1022 a
Q What was your position towards the end of the war, and what was your official position?
AAt the end of the war I was Division Chief of the Division for High altitude Research at the Institute for Aviation Medicine, in the German experimental station for aviation in Berlin Adlershof.
Q Witness, do you know Mr. Milch personally?
A No, not personally.
Q Did you ever see him anywhere before the end of the war?
A No, I never saw him personally.
Q Witness, you participated in those so-called first high-altitude experiments which were carried out by you together with Dr. Ruff and Dr. Rascher?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Once during an examination on the 29th of October 1946 - you have ....
DR. BERGOLD: May it please this Tribunal, this is Exhibit No. 107, NORM 391, which is in document book No. 5 b of the prosecution. It is page 133, Your Honors.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal feels that it is proper to state to the witness that he may refuse to answer any question the answer to which might tend to incriminate or degrade him.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you, sir. May it please this Tribunal, I am of the same opinion, only I couldn't say so myself because I had to follow German usages where the German lawyer has no right to tell him that, it is up to the Tribunal to toll the witness. Thank you, Your Honors.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, is it correct that in your institute you carried out self experiments and you already attained the altitude of 17,000 meters?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q These experiments, were they carried out with oxygen masks or without oxygen masks?
A That differed. Part of the experiments were carried out with them and some without them according to their purpose.
Q Were these experiments so called climbing experiments or falling experiments?
A Those were pressure, rapid reduction in pressure experiments.
1023 a We took certain heights and further experiments were carried out with rapid reduction in pressure and most of the time with rapid reduction in pressure from 8,000 to cloud-level.
Q Witness, I shall submit to you now the report of the 26th of July 1942 which also is signed by you and which should be known to you.
(Paper handed to witness.)
In this report an experiment is being described which was carried out on an experimental subject which was called no. Was that an inmate who was under your supervision or was it you yourself?
A That was I.
Q This can clearly be seen from the contents. However, we have certain doubts about that. Witness, was this experiment under particularly difficult circumstances experimental circumstances which were out of the normal series of experiments?
A Yes. Very often we carried out self-experiments besides the others - in order to carry out the observation on ourselves and that experiment was particularly different from all of the others because with oxygen we stayed at an altitude of 13,000 motors and we stayed there for quite a while.
Q In other words, you were still conscious or did you become unconscious?
A Yes. In that experiment I did become unconscious. However, that is an accident that does happen sometimes.
Q The other experiments which you described in that report, they were carried out so that the experimental subject after it had attained the presumed altitude had taken off the oxygen mask and then became unconscious?
A Yes, that was the reason of the experiments because we wanted to see what would happen after they had suffered a lack of oxygen.
Q When you climb up to that height you wanted to attain did you have the pressure pains which you felt during your experiments on yourself?
A No, these pressure pains did not occur because of the total time we were up in that altitude was shorter and, of course, because the experimental subjects did not have an oxygen mask and therefore became unconscious right away. Tho most important thing, however, is the time, yes.
Q Now, I shall come back to my first question; in the beginning before you carried out these experiments did you carry out self-experiments up to 17,000 meters?
A Yes.
Q Your experimental subject, did they ever mention to you that they had special physical pains during the experiments or didn't you ever ask the experimental subjects?
A Yes, I did. Of course, we did, during the experiments as it was presumed there was no pain whatsoever.
Once in a while when climbing down the 1025 a ears were hurting and then, furthermore, it was seen that the experimental subject was pointing to his ears and then, of course, we started climbing down so much slower or reducing the pressure much slower.
Q There was only a certain buzz in your ears or pressure?
A Yes, it was a pressure of the ear-drum as minors feel it going down the mines.
Q In other words, this may happen to any civilian going up the mountain? In a train?
A Yes, for these pains occur in particular also when small altitudes like 3,000 motors are reached.
Q Witness, in your report a sinking experiment from 20,000 meters is described which took quite a while and then on page 15 it says "'37th minutes reacts to pain pain stimuli." What pain stimuli? Were those pain stimuli which were derived from the experiment? Or did you make a little test-experiment on him?
A Yes, we carried them out in the way a medical examination is carried out, namely, in order to examine the pain stimuli we point at the various parts of the body with a pencil and we want to know if the experimental subject can tell the difference between the pointed part of the pencil and the stem of the pencil, in order to find out what exactly is being felt. That can also be seen in the expression "pain stimuli." One gives pain stimuli to find out what their reaction is to that.
Q In other words, it is not a question here of carrying out tortures or cruelties of the subject, do you?
A No.
Q Such experiments, are they always carried out by all of the physicians?
Various physicians, etc?
A. Yes. This is part of every neurological examination of people who are sick.
Q. Witness, in this report you stated that there were no death cases in your experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this correct as regards this report or were there death cases at all and if there were any death 1026(a) Cases how did they happen?
In what framework?
A The statement is correct because otherwise I would not have written it in that report. At that time, of course, there was no reason whatsoever to keep it secret -- keep such a death case a seccret and, furthermore, the whole technical development in this field which we carried out--which was prepare with these experiment would have led to wrong conclusions if a death case would have been kept a secret.
A Witness, it has been stated that this Mr. Rascher had many death cases during experiments.
A Yes.
Q Were these experiments which were carried out the framework of the Luftwaffe experiments or what kind of experiments were they?
A Those were experiments which Rascher carried out behind my back, for the greatest part at least, namely, upon orders by Himmler who had given him a special mission apart from these experiments. Then later on Rascher also had a death case during my presence there and as he did not pay any attention to my objection I reported the incident to Dr. Ruff in Berlin and he took the necessary stops in order to conclude the experiments as soon as possible.
Q Witness, you just said in your presence. Wasn't that an experiment within the framework of this report?
A No, it was an experiment which was completely outside of this framework of the experiments to save people from high altitude.
Q Was that an experiments within the framework of Rascher's experiments?
A When I asked Rascher what he had in view with these experiments, not only with these lethal but also with all of the other experiments which he carried out, he told me that these experiments had been ordered him by Himmler and that he wanted to rehabilitate himself and that these experiments were of no concern to him. Furthermore, he told me to keep it a secret by showing me a telegram of Himmler's in which this was expressed that nobody was supposed to knew about these experiments and, furthermore, as it was usual I had to sign a special paper personally that we had to keep everything that wont on 1027-A there a secret.
Q. "Witness, in those experiments carried out by you which were carried out within the framework of this report, during those experiments did the inmates ever have any physical injury?
A. No. The inmates were always examined before the experiments. We also made an electrocardiogram and that cardiogram was repeated after the conclusion of the experiment and by comparing the two electrocardiograms which will also show the smallest injury done to a human body, we saw that no injury resulted from these experiments.
Q. Witness, what were you told with respect to the concentration camp inmates, namely, with respect to the question if they came voluntarily or upon order?
A. I have to add a few more things. During the first proposal Dr. Ruff made in that respect, particularly referring to questions of saving people from high altitude, we spoke that these experiments be carried out on people who were sentenced to death or those who were sentenced to long jail terms, who had been at our disposal voluntarily. That was the reason why I agreed to carry out these experiments and this was a natural prerequisite for me. All of these experiments were always carried out on male volunteers. That is, students, doctors and other collaborators of ours and it was the Luftwaffe Institute that was interested in these experiments and it is important for an experiment that the experimental subject also cooperates and it is necessary that he does not resist mentally and that he tells the truth about what they feel during such an experiment. We were always dependent upon some sort of cooperation on the part of the experimental subject. Furthermore, we were dependent on the experimental subjects because we can't do everything, necessary ourselves and particularly in these high altitude experiments, one is unconscious in the decisive moments. That was one of the prerequisites by which I went to Munich to the Weltz Institute where I met Dr. Rascher for the first time.
Rascher also spoke of people who had been sentenced to death who had volunteered for these experiments; and he furthermore showed me a letter of Himmler during these conversations which gave him the necessary authorization for the execution of the experiments. Then there was a conference in Dachau itself where we decided that Rascher in cooperation with the camp commandant would call or select a number of experimental subjects. We requested right from the start that the people had to be healthy and of about the same age as our aviators, that is, between 20 and 35 years of age. They should be in good physical condition, and they had to get good food so that the experiments could be comparable with the healthy Luftwaffe personnel. The camp commandant said that Rascher was to select these people, from those people who volunteered, and he also told us the further details concerning food, cigarettes, etc., etc. Then I spoke with the experimental subjects myself, who also confirmed the fact. The reasons differed with everyone of these individuals, but as a whole they had volunteered for these experiments. And finally the whole behavior of these people was such that one could notice that they were actually cooperating.
Q. Thank you. Witness, did you ever have the impression, not only an assumption, but I mean an incident from which you could understand that Milch knew all the details about these experiments?
A. I am afraid I can't say a thing about that, because even though I know the documents now, it is difficult for me to tell. I know that during the experiments and after the experiments when I wrote out the reports myself, the name Milch was never mentioned in that Particular direction, and the first time where I heard that Milch had to know about these experiments Was when the film was to be shown at the RLM. That happened in the following manner, namely at that time I had just gone a journey, and a letter was forwarded to me which informed me that on the 11th of September there would be a film show, with the Secretary of State Milch, and that for that reason I had to be at the RLM, or Air Ministry.
When I was in Berlin again, as far 1029 a as I can remember, Colonel Tende called me up and informed me of the fact again verbally and gave me the exact time at which I had to appear at the Air Ministry, according to these instructions Rascher and I appeared at the Air Ministry in the morning.
Q. And only from this happening or incident you know or you think that Milch knows about the experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. During that film show was Milch present?
A. No. Before the film show we were told that he would come very soon and then in the meantime they had started with the film show, and after the show we were told that the Secretary of State, Milch, had left Berlin or that he was with the Reichs Marshal. I don't remember exactly any more.
Q. Could the spectators of this film gather from this film that during these experiments certain cruelties occurred, or that there were death cases?
A. No. As far as death cases are concerned, in no case, because every experiment from the beginning to the end was obvious, from the beginning of the high altitude sickness up to the unconsciousness and up to the moment where they regained consciousness. In other words, you could see how the experimental subject lost consciousness and then regained consciousness.
Q. Could one see the idea that cruelties were being committed there?
A. That is very difficult to say, because I can't very well judge how such experiments would look, or rather, what kind of an impression it would leave on a layman. The experimental subjects were suffering cramps of the face, convulsions of the arms and the face which make certain grimasses visible. That is why it is very difficult to say what the effect of those people would be on a layman. It might affect a layman as an epileptic case or something similar to it and I really can't tell what kind of an impression a layman would get from such film shows.