The pressurized chamber had been further developed and used in certain fighter groups and reconnaissance planes which flow at high altitudes.
Q. Now, Witness, were you interested in the solution of the question as to what would happen to the pilot in that plane?
A. Yes, of course. Of course we were interested in that too, because one had to get some sort of an idea how a pilot would react if the pressure chamber would have been smashed by bullets, and which cabin then would not function normally, and how a pilot would have to act, though it was not within our field of task; we were only responsible for the material, in other words, the airplane material.
Q. Witness, that question how a person reacts or acts at an attitude of 14,000 meters , had that already been cleared at that time? Had other tests been made?
A. Yes, at our experimental station, Rechlin, there was a group of air force doctors who were directly under the medical inspectorate which dealt with that question. I have several reports, or rather I read several reports of this myself. These reports were also published in the air force books which were published yearly, and these articles also contained pictures, and they described the influence of the altitude on the functioning possibilities of a human being. I know that those doctors, in Rechlin, keen on distinction carried out these experiments on themselves. I can still remember having seen in those booklets that for instance the influence on the writing capacity which would decrease with height restricted the possibility of being able to write legibly and which later on developed to a simple scribble.
Those doctors who carried out the experiments on themselves received medals for this work.
1647(a)
Q. Witness, did you induce these experiments with the doctors on themselves, or who did?
1647 A
A I already mentioned before that they were stationed in Rechlin because that was where the research station for the Luftwaffe was. They were under the medical inspectorate.
Q Did Milch at that time discuss with you in which altitude one was interested?
A I answered before that although several people objected to it, we had agreed as to the 14 kilometers or 14,000 meters.
Q Witness, do you know that experiments for the Luftwaffe had been carried out in Dachau?
A Yes, I heard about that in May, 1945, through publication in some Munich paper and later on when I was kept a prisoner of war at Dachau I have been interrogated on that point.
Q At that time in 1941 or 1942, respectively, you didn't know anything about that?
A No, during the whole war I learned nothing at all of this matter at Dachau.
Q Did Milch speak with you about these experiments or didn't he?
A No, he never did.
Q Did you know Dr. Rascher, at that time I mean?
A No. I read his name for the first time in May, 1945, in a Munich paper, and during the examination in September 1945, at Dachau I have also been asked about him. I didn't know him.
Q Did you hear about the fact that a report concerning experiments had come in to the R.L.M.?
A No.
Q Did you hear anything about the showing of a film in September 1942?
A No.
Q Tell me now , who was responsible for the agenda for the technical talks and who set the date for them.
A. I myself.
Q. And you learned nothing of the showing of that film?
1648-A
A No.
Q Witness, there is an unclarity here in the paper concerning the position of the Luft-hansa. Did the Luft-hansa have anything to do with military organizations?
A No. All during the war repair stations of the Luft-hansa were put at the disposal of the Luftwaffe or used as repair shops for the Luftwaffe. That is the only thing that happened on a militaristic basis or in the military field. However, for most of the time they repaired water transport planes. For instance, they worked on Junker-52 or Junker planes, which in itself was part of the work which the Luft-hansa used to do all the time.
Q Witness, do you know if Milch belonged to the inner circle of Hitler's.
A No.
Q Witness, please explain your "no". That is not quite clear. Do you know it or don't you know it? Do you know if ho belonged to the circle or don't you?
A Well, I don't know how to understand your expression "inner circle".
Q In other words, do you mean those who wore confidential men of Hitler.
A No, Mich was not a confidential man of Hitler.
Q Is it correct that only with Goering's approval he could go and see Hitler?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that duds fell over Germany? Who eliminated those?
AAs far as I know there were special groups taking care of that. There were people who were around the armament centers. They were under the Luftgaucommando, and one officer was ordered who saw to it that after an air raid these people went to certain places which had been named by the police and where the duds were then removed. They saw to it that the duds were removed. I myself as commander of the Luftgau have watched these groups while working and I also gave them decorations and distinctions.
There were special fire experts who knew all about the newest bombs of the enemy.
Q Were these Germans or foreigners?
A They were Germans, German soldiers as a matter of fact.
Q Witnesses testified here to the effect that foreigners helped there as well. Do you know anything about that?
A No, I don't.
Q Witness, do you know that on 30 January 1943 Goering made a speech concerning the Russian campaign, and that he spoke of cowards and weaklings who had worried about the Russian campaign?
A Yes, I do. I remember exactly that happened in the RLM, in the great honor hall. There was a certain delay at that time of an hour and a half approximately. There was an air raid and the speech was only held a little later. That speech was transmitted to the people, and of course, there was quite a confusion about the whole thing. I also believe that that speech was not held on the 30th of January but only on 1 February, as far as I can remember. And he spoke about the necessity of the Russian campaign, and he said that at that time, of course, there were weaklings who had said that this campaign should not take place, and in continuation of that speech he said those are always the same cowards. That approximately was how the speech went.
Q Whom do you think that he meant by that?
A It was clear to me that he meant Field Marshal -- among others
THE PRESIDENT: We don't mind very much this witness telling what he thinks Milch may have meant by something, but I don't want him to go beyond that and tell what he thinks Hitler night have meant by what he said. You are asking this witness to guess. That is going too far. Do you understand?
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, I believe that your objection comes from the fact that the interpretation could not have come to you.
THE PRESIDENT: My objection is to the question, not to the answer. You are asking this witness to guess what Hitler might have meant -
DR. BERGOLD: Goering.
THE PRESIDENT: -- by certain words that he used. Well -- Goering, all right. You have been doing that with Milch right along, but I think you are going- too far when you ask him to put his interpretation on what a number of other people might have meant by certain words.
DR. BERGOLD: Well, may it please Your Honors, I think that one has to know the situation in Germany at that time in order to be able to understand that. Everybody at that time knew of the conflict between Goering and Milch, and everyone in the Air Ministry and also the German people knew whom he meant by that certain remark even though he didn't mention the name. Such an affront before the public could not take place; that is, if he mentions the name, naturally, and if I put such a speech before you, then there is a lack of knowledge of various facts which we Germans know, which you do not know, however, I can only explain it to you by asking the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: All right I am sorry I mentioned it. I will join Judge Musmanno in retiring from this debate.
Q (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, do you know of Milch participated with money in the Air Armament industry.
A No.
Q Do you know that he participated with money or don't you know it?
A He did not participate.
Q Is it correct that Milch on his 50th birthday accepted or refused a bonus from the Air Armament Industry of 50,000 marks.
A He refused it. His life was modest. I remember his 50th birthday very well. Admiral Laas appeared there, the President of the Union of the German Air Industry, and he wanted to present him with that amount. The Field Marshal told me that he refused that gift.
Q Was Milch a profiteer? Of the National Socialist System?
A No. On the contrary he refused -- he was rather modest and he refused to have a villa in Berlin.
Q Do you know what his position was about the master race theory of the Nazis?
A He was against this theory.
Q Witness, it has been said here that Milch showed to foreign visitors secret weapons or secret industries of Germany. Do you know if he had the permission of his higher authorities.
A Yes, indeed. Before any foreign visitor or group of visitors could be shown certain parts of the Luftwaffe, he had to have a special permission.
Q Witness, I am not interested in the fact that he had to or did not have to. I want to know if he did.
A Yes, he did. I myself at the time was chief of the 6th department of the General Staff. That was the armament department and that division was the competent division which would issue permission. We had to receive our permission from Goering.
DR. BERGOLD: For the time being I have no more questions to the witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q When did you enter the German Army?
A On 5 June 1917.
Q What was your rank in 1939?
A Lieutenant Colonel.
Q When did you become a Colonel?
A 1941.
Q What date?
A I have to look in my pay book.
Q No, no. Don't look in your soldiers' book. Leave it there. Just tell me what date you became a Colonel.
A I believe on the 1st of March.
Q And when were you promoted after that?
A 1943; on the 1st of March, Brigadier General.
Q Brigadier General in your army is known as General-Major, is it not?
A Yes.
Q And did you get promoted after that?
A In 1944 on 1 July, Major General.
Q And was that the rank you held at the end of the war?
A Yes.
Q You were a Colonel then in 1942, is that right?
A Yes.
Q You said that you first know Milch in 1937. What was your position at the outbreak of the war in September 1939?
A Chief of the 6th department of the General Staff of the Air Force or Luftwaffe.
Q Where was your office?
A In the RLM with the Air Ordnance Master General.
Q How long did you hold that post?
A From 1 July 1938 to 1 November 1941.
Q Then where did you go?
A Then I became chief of the Technical Division "C", Department "C".
Q Is that the "B" office in the Generalluftzeugmeister?
A Yes.
Q And that "A" office that you spoke of in the GL, that's an office that is now shown on that chart, but it is an office that has parallel functions with yours?
A Yes.
Q How long were you chief of the "C" office in the Luftzougmeister?
A Until the end of June 1944.
Q June 30. Then where did you go?
A Then I was sent to the Flak Artillery School and I wanted to take over a flak division. However, on 1 September 1944 I became Commander of Luftgau 7.
Q Where was this Flak Artillery School?
A That was in Roerick, Mecklenburg.
Q You were there from 30 June to 1 September, and then you became Commander of Luftgau 7 in Munich?
A No, I was there only in August. In June I was sick with lumbago and I was in the hospital until early in August.
Q When did you go to Luftgau 7, Munich?
A On the 4th of September, 1944.
Q At the end of the war?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever know a Dr. Romberg?
A No.
Q A Luftwaffe Doctor?
A No.
Q Was he a Luftwaffe doctor at Dachau?
A No, I don't know him.
Q You were in the Luftwaffe Ministry in Berlin in August and September of 1943, weren't you?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember getting a film from anyone while you were there?
A No.
Q Do you know a Colonel Vorwald?
A No.
Q Do you know any other Colonel Vorwalds in the Air Force that was stationed around there at that time?
A No.
Q Do you know a Colonel Pendall?
A No.
Q You never heard of a Colonel Pendall?
A Oh, "Pendelle"; yes, I heard of "Pendelle"; he was the adjutant of the Field Marshal Filch, at G.L.
Q Do you know anything about a film that was shown at the Air Ministry that had to do with air pressure experiments at Dachau?
A No.
Q You say you never went to Dachau?
A Yes, indeed, I was there in 1936. I was invited there once together with twenty-five other officers. At that time I was a tactic teacher at the War School.
Q In the summer of 1936?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever make any other trips there?
A No; just as a prisoner of war.
Q How was everything at Dachau in 1936?
A In 1936 I saw the concentration camp. We saw the whole concentration camp.
Q It was a nice place; was it?
AAll wooden barracks; with rooms for fifty people each; which were furnished with wash rooms and W.C.; we were also shown a mess where the prisoners and inmates could get coffee or cookies or cake. We saw a library which was administered by the inmates themselves. We also saw the kitchen. We also witnessed the reception of their meals in the evening. There were certain workshops for carpenters; where part of the inmates worked. I remember the stools were being made there and war lockets. The equipment of that carpenter shop was very up to date; it contained every machine for working with wood; and also some suction machines. That was what struck me most. That was what struck me most.
Q You know that the Luftwaffe was in charge of the work at the Dachau Camp?
A Yes; I knew that. In fact the commander of the camp showed us around personally. He was an SS Brigade Commander.
Q But you never went back again?
A Oh yes; at the end of 1945 in the end of August as a prisoner.
MR. DENNEY: I am not talking about when the war was over.
Q You never went back before the war was over?
A No, not any more.
Q By the way; were you a member of the Party?
A No; from 1917 until 1944 I was a soldier.
Q. With a steel helmet?
A. No.
Q. With the SA or the SS, or any of those clubs?
A. No.
Q. On any inspection trips which you made to the various factories that you told Dr. Bergold about when you saw Russians, Ukranian women and French, what other kinds of foreign workers did you see there?
A. Well, all those which you just mentioned. Russians. Particularly, Ukranian women and French women.
Q. French men?
A. No. That was a factory for very accurate machinery. That was at Spandau, near Berlin, and the only French women were girls, female workers.
Q. They never used any French employees in the Luftwaffe?
A. Yes, I heard about that, but I personally never saw any of them.
Q. Did you hear about that?
A. The French men were always used in the industry, that is, in the Luftwaffe industry.
Q. But that's all you know about it, you just heard about it?
A. Yes, I did not happen to see any.
Q. Did you see the factory in Brandenburg, where they made Luftwaffe articles?
A. Brandenburg was the "Arado" factory.
Q. Were you ever up there?
A. Yes I was; that was the factory for the HE-177.
Q., Who did you see working there?
A. There I saw Germans.
Q. Only Germans they had up there?
A. Well I didn't see anybody else. Also, I did not go to all the workshops. During my visit I restricted myself to the development shop at Arado, and there they only used German workers.
Q. You couldn't have known about that, inasmuch as you were only interested in the airplane?
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal No. II is again in session.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Witness, you were there in Berlin all during 1942, that is, your office was there, was it not?
A Yes.
Q And on 11 September in '42 you don't recall ever having seen Dr. Rascher or Dr. Romberg?
A No.
Q Did you see Oberarzt named Weffler on that day?
A I didn't get the name?
Q W-E-R-F-L-E-R?
A No.
Q Do you know an Oberarzt named Professor Kalk?
A Kalk?
Q K-A-L-K?
A Yes.
Q Did you know an Oberarzt named Bruehl?
A Yes.
Q Did you know a government counsel named Penzinger?
A Yes, Oberarzt Pensinger I knew. He was in Rechlin.
Q You recall a man named --- you knew Pendelle?
A Colonel Pendelle, yes.
Q Did you know Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers of the SS?
A No.
Q We have a document in evidence here as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 123, Document No. NO-224, appearing at page 190 in the English Document Book, No. 5b (Baker), that is a report of Dr. Romberg and Dr. Rascher, which says he went over to the Air Ministry on 11 September 1942 at 9:45 o'clock in the morning, according to telephonic and oral agreements; that Colonel Pendelle and I, we went to the ante-chambers of the Secretary of State of the Senate, and they had a movie there, and that the defendant was not able to go to the movie because Goering had sent for him, and it says that after the film was shown, the motion picture film was handed to Colonel Vorwald, and that he tried to get the film back from you on the same day, but that you were still at the developing conference, and he telephoned you the next day and requested that the film be returned to him, and you said that you wanted to keep the film until Sunday, the 13th of September, since on that day the Reichsmarshal was coming, and he might want to see the picture, and so Romberg let you keep the picture.
Now do you remember that?
A No, I don't recall that at all.
A. No, I don't recall that at all.
Q. Do you know what the picture was about?
A. No.
Q. Did you knew that Romberg was a Luftwaffe doctor?
A. No, I do not know Romberg.
Q. You only heard about Rascher in ay of 1945, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. You never saw the picture?
A. No.
Q. Do you know anything about a picture that they showed in the Air Ministry in September of 1942 that shoved them experimenting on people who were concentration camp inmates at Dachau in a pressure chamber?
A. No.
Q. You said that you left the Generalluftzeugmeister in 1944, 30 June?
A. Yes. It may have been a few days before. I was on a trip for the Jaegerstab, and I fell ill. I was taken to the hospital immediately from the train.
Q. You had nothing to do there after with the Generalluftzeugmeister or the Jaegerstab?
A. No.
Q. Now, who was in charge of prisoners of war for the Luftwaffe?
A. The Luftwaffe was not in charge of prisoners of war. I said yesterday that all prisoners of war were looked after by the OKW and, in Germany, by the deputies of the Generalkommandos of the army districts, by a general in each case who was in charge of prisoners of war.
Q. Didn't General Foerster have something to do with prisoners of war?
A. No.
Q. You know General Foerster, didn't you?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. You knew him well?
A. Yes.
Q You were familiar with his general duties during the war?
A Yes, he was the chief of the air defense at the end.
Q He was a high ranking general in the Luftwaffe, was he not?
A Yes, he was general of Flieger.
Q As far as you know, he had nothing to do with prisoners of war?
A No.
Q You say that it was a Hitler order that said prisoners of war would be assigned to the various factories?
A Yes.
Q And you people -- Excuse me; go ahead.
A This situation was already in force in 1941 when we took over our office.
Q And, whoever you got you had to take?
A Yes, that was the order.
Q So, if they gave you prisoners of war, slave labor, concentration camp people -- whoever they gave you -- you just had to take them because that was what Hitler had ordered?
A Yes.
Q You told about concentration camp workers working at Oranienburg. Did you know of any other Luftwaffe factories where you had concentration camp workers?
A No, all I know is Oranienburg, the Heinkel Works there.
Q And you cannot think of any other foreigners who worked in Luftwaffe factories, other than those which you told the Tribunal?
A Other nationalities I did not know, Russian, Ukranian French women. I did know that Frenchmen were working.
Q You did not know anything about transports or workers from Poland?
A No.
Q You never heard Filch say anything about that?
A No.
Q You never heard Filch say anything about transports of workers from Italy? 1662
A No.
Q You did not know about any Italian workers working in the Luftwaffe?
A No, I did not know anything of Italians. In one case there were miners. They were German miners who worked in Italy in the mines.
Q No, I am not talking about those. I am talking about Italians.
A No, I know nothing there.
Q You never heard anybody say anything about Italian workers?
A No, I know nothing.
Q Did you ever hear the defendant urge of concentration camps being used to control foreign labor.
A No.
Q And you never heard him recommend that foreign workers be sent to concentration camps?
A No.
Q Did you know a man named Gablenz G-A-B-L-E-N-Z?
A Yes, at the beginning he was the chief of the Planning Office.
Q How many meetings of the Jaegerstab were hold? Do you know?
A Well, it was founded on 1 March, and there were daily conferences each morning, except when the Jaegerstab was making a trip.
Q Well, would you agree with me that there were 112 meetings of the Jaegerstab?
A Yes, that is entirely possible.
Q And how many of those 112 meetings did you attend?
A Perhaps 30.
Q Do you know how many Milch attended?
A In the beginning Milch was there quite frequently, but later on he did not go quite so often. He became a much less frequent visitor and sent deputies instead.
Q Now, at the Jaegerstab meetings, was hot the chair that Milch occupied left empty if he wasn't there?
A Not that I can remember -- that the chair remained empty.
Q Well, when Milch was there did he preside?
A No, Herr Sauer was presiding.