BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
DR. BERGOLD: In other words, the "GL" does not mean the authority itself; that in this case it means the defendant himself.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes, but let's try to confine the inquiry to the counts in the indictment, slave labor, and prisoners of war, and so on, and not these abstract and academic discussions as to the programs for intensifying the war effort.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please your Honor. Hay I please explain that I cannot act in the way your Honor pleases. The Prosecution made a series of morale impeachments referring to crimes the defendant allegedly committed which are not in the indictment. For the question that is, if there is a crime it is of importance what kind of man is before you, whether he was fighting for the aims of the Nazi Party, or, whether he was a man who within the framework of his activity tried to avoid the worst. I point out to you that the IMT in its findings in the case of Speer went out considerably from that point, what the man had done outside the counts of the indictment. For instance, it was counted as a good point for him that he had avoided the destruction of Germany, an. act which he was not accused of, an act which in itself could not have moved at all the Allied countries, therefore, I am of the opinion that I may describe to you the character of that man.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well, Doctor.
DR. BERGOLD: What I wish to show you is the correct picture of this man.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I am afraid that the very thing I was trying to avoid, the long unnecessary discussions, I am only intensifying by my further inquiry, so you may proceed.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, I shall come back to the details which says here in one of the documents concerning the Jaegerstab, may it please your donor, No. NOKW 338 ---- 388, correction. This document discusses the session of the Jaegerstab, session hold on 28 March 1944. Labor requirements are spoken about. Once it said here, a remark made by Milch, I shall read that to you, witness, very shortly. "Milch: Every week 2000 workers come from the East. The Jaegerstab comes before the agriculture, but for a great part they come to the agriculture." Then he says that, "Jaegerstab comes before the agriculture, could we stop that." What was meant -- what does it mean by "Stop that" in this particular passage. Does it mean to catch people, or what does it mean?
A That means whether these measures could not prevent the people from going in to the agriculture so that they could be taken to the industry.
Q The same document. They further speak of the whole matter, namely, the workers were hard to get, and Milch said at one point, "You know our situation." He says to Smelter "That you do everything you can we're sure. However, we have to make a robbing action now. We cannot stick to laws because there will be a lot of discrepancies. However, we shall take this on our back and take the responsibility for it. Witness, could that mean that the people go outside and rob people, or, what did they mean by a "robbing " answer?
A That was to mean that these people should be taken to the industry, and that we were to cheat, so to say, agriculture of those people.
Q In other words, that had nothing to do with robbing people?
A No, that was simply a transfer of the people from one sector to another, respectively that they are not sent to the sector for which they were to be provided, but were sent to the Air Armament Industry, by by-passing the legal regulations.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. Mr. Denny, do you have the exhibit number of the document book and page?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, do you have the exhibit number or document book page?
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir.
DR. BERGOLD: It was NOKW 388.
MR. DENNEY: In document book, English, Number 4.
DR. BERGOLD: Everything is Exhibit Number 75.
MR. DENNEY: The meeting of 26 March 1944.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, all the documents which I am introducing now are Exhibit 75, even though they might have different document numbers.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, in the Jaegerstab conference of 25 April 1944 -and this is Document NOKW 334, also Exhibit Number 75 -- it says that Frenchmen in Alsace should be put in barracks. Milch puts it in a nice way, that is, that French persons are not to be employed in Alsace. Can you tell me anything about that?
A This is probably the case of the constructing of the tunnel in Alsace which was assigned to the firm B.M.N., the Bayerische Motor Works, so that they would be able to work without being disturbed by air raids. Frenchmen were to be used in order to build this place, and,as far as I can remember this case, Hitler had. ordered later that no Frenchmen were to be used in Alsace. Well, it meant a lot to us to be able to employ those people who were there, so that we would not have to bring German workers there from Germany, and, to comply with Hitler's wishes, Field Marshal Milch had proposed that these people be put in barracks there; perhaps Hitler would not mind that.
Q Was that to be a complete putting in barracks?
A No, this was just a matter of form so that Hitler could not object to it anymore.
Q Witness, in the same conference -- Document NOKW 334, Exhibit Number 73 -- they spoke of the transfer of French prisoners of war from Maehrisch Trucbau to Braunschweig. That is where Milch stated the following; "I think it excellent that these prisoners of was be sent there when Braunschweig is always attacked.
" What, in your opinion, does this sentence mean?
1642a
A I think that Braunschweig, as an industrial city, was exposed to air raids, just like any other city. I cannot find anything particular about this sentence.
Q Could one say that Milch wanted to send the prisoners of war to Braunschweig in order to move the Allies not to bomb Braunschweig?
A I do not think so. After all, these prisoners of war were in all cities, and all cities were attacked at that time, all the cities which had industries.
Q What, then, do you think that he meant by that sentence that he thought it an excellent idea to put these prisoners of war there when Braunschweig was being attacked all the time?
A The prisoners during air raids always stood the test in firefighting and clearing up work, and what he probably meant by that was that it would be good to have these people in these cities under air attack in order to help during future air raids.
Q Apart from that, do you know where the barracks were in Braunschweig? Were these barracks near the factories; were they inside the city, or where were they?
A They were outside the city.
Q Can you go into detail on that? Is it near Braunschweig?
A There wore air fields in Braunschweig, which were in the northern part of the city, and there were also barracks there. I am of the opinion that it was rather far out of the city.
Q Witness, during the eighth trip Hubertus-Enterprise from the 1st to the 3rd of June 1944--Document NOKW 350, again Exhibit 75-Milch says here the following: "No Frenchman will work any longer when the invasion starts. I am of the opinion that these Frenchmen should be brought here by force but then as prisoners. " Witness, can you. explain to me this passage?
A We had arranged with the French government that certain age groups were to be recruited for work in Germany. During the time they were free workers and not prisoners.
Q Fitness, you probably did not quite understand the passage. We are talking here of Frenchmen who were in France during the invasion.
A Yes, yes.
Q Well, Milch wanted to bring them to Germany as prisoners. Can you explain to mo why he proposed that? What was his reason for that?
A I cannot think of that at the moment. I don't know why.
Q Do you know that millions of French prisoners of war had been released?
A Yes.
Q Do you know under what conditions?
A On the basis of being recalled at any moment. I can think only that the question was with people who had been prisoners of war and had been released until further notice and were now working in France, and, as they were afraid of an invasion, these people were to be made prisoners again later on.
Q You are positively sure about that, that these French prisoners of war had been released until being recalled?
A Yes, I am sure of that because we had an agreement with the Vichy government.
Q In the Jaegerstab conference of 20 March 1944 Document NOKW 346, also Exhibit Number 75, Your Honors, Sauer says here the following to Milch:
"As far as Hungary is concerned, I would be very grateful if the Field Marshal would call Herr Sauckel and tell him that the whole pool to be mobilized from Hungary has to be put at the disposal of the Jaegerstab before it is put at the disposal of any other branch. Great labor forces have to be built up. The people must be treated like conviets."
Can you tell me what Milch did on that?
AAll I know is that he told me that he was not going to carry out that wish of Sauer. It was Sauer's wish to ask Sauckel that they be put at the Jaegerstab's disposal. I also know that Held Marshal Milch did l644 not get along with Sauckel.
Q. Witness, did you participate in the trip to Hungary?
A. No.
Q. Do you know the purpose of that trip?
A. Yes. Certain factories were to be erected in the hills around Budapest and in the caves near Budapest, which were at the same level as the Danube. There was for quite a period of time a common program between Germany and Hungary for higher production of fighters. This program was to be intensified, and to protect these factories from air raids.
Q. Is it not correct that that trip also was used to intensify the transportation of Jewish people to Germany?
A. No, I don't know anything about that.
Q Witness, I now come back to the case of the S.S. doctors. Tell me now what was the maximum altitude that the air force was interested in in 1941?
A The altitude to be reached, they spoke a lot about it in the development sessions of G.L.; we realized that in this war the height or altitude of approximately 14,000 meters would be the maximum height obtained by a plane, That was a figure which could be reckoned on if the developments of the high altitude engines and the pressurized chambers could be developed as we expected. From other offices proposals had been made to attain altitudes like 18,000 and 20,000 meters and to test them. Field Marshall Milch and myself declined that at the time because this altitude seemed Utopian ideas to us, and we decided to be satisfied and to restrict ourselves to the altitude of 14,000 meters.
Q What was the practical altitude obtained at that time?
A They had altitudes up to 10,000 and 11,000 kilometers, ten to eleven thousand kilometers.
Q How was the crew to be protected at these altitudes?
A There were two developments in this point, running parallel with each other, namely, one of them to give the pilot a pressurized suit. In other words, a suit.
DR. BERGOLD: Just a moment, witness, the President wants to say something.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the witness misstated something. He spoke about 14,000 kilometers, which is very high. Did he not mean 14,000 meters?
THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed, 14 kilometers or 14,000 meters.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Will you continue please, witness?
A That high altitude suit, in other words, could give the pilot the possibility to move normally in these high altitudes under altered pressure conditions. The other development was the pressurized chamber or cabin. In other words, it was a chamber which could imitate altitudes which were necessary to keeping the pilots alive.
Concerning the first problem we ceased the experiments there, namely the high altitude suit.
l646a because the movement possibilities of the pilot had been hindered to such on extent that he could not make all the movements necessary for the control of the plane.
The pressurized chamber had been further developed and used in certain fighter groups and reconnaissance planes which flow at high altitudes.
Q. Now, Witness, were you interested in the solution of the question as to what would happen to the pilot in that plane?
A. Yes, of course. Of course we were interested in that too, because one had to get some sort of an idea how a pilot would react if the pressure chamber would have been smashed by bullets, and which cabin then would not function normally, and how a pilot would have to act, though it was not within our field of task; we were only responsible for the material, in other words, the airplane material.
Q. Witness, that question how a person reacts or acts at an attitude of 14,000 meters , had that already been cleared at that time? Had other tests been made?
A. Yes, at our experimental station, Rechlin, there was a group of air force doctors who were directly under the medical inspectorate which dealt with that question. I have several reports, or rather I read several reports of this myself. These reports were also published in the air force books which were published yearly, and these articles also contained pictures, and they described the influence of the altitude on the functioning possibilities of a human being. I know that those doctors, in Rechlin, keen on distinction carried out these experiments on themselves. I can still remember having seen in those booklets that for instance the influence on the writing capacity which would decrease with height restricted the possibility of being able to write legibly and which later on developed to a simple scribble.
Those doctors who carried out the experiments on themselves received medals for this work.
1647(a)
Q. Witness, did you induce these experiments with the doctors on themselves, or who did?
1647 A
A I already mentioned before that they were stationed in Rechlin because that was where the research station for the Luftwaffe was. They were under the medical inspectorate.
Q Did Milch at that time discuss with you in which altitude one was interested?
A I answered before that although several people objected to it, we had agreed as to the 14 kilometers or 14,000 meters.
Q Witness, do you know that experiments for the Luftwaffe had been carried out in Dachau?
A Yes, I heard about that in May, 1945, through publication in some Munich paper and later on when I was kept a prisoner of war at Dachau I have been interrogated on that point.
Q At that time in 1941 or 1942, respectively, you didn't know anything about that?
A No, during the whole war I learned nothing at all of this matter at Dachau.
Q Did Milch speak with you about these experiments or didn't he?
A No, he never did.
Q Did you know Dr. Rascher, at that time I mean?
A No. I read his name for the first time in May, 1945, in a Munich paper, and during the examination in September 1945, at Dachau I have also been asked about him. I didn't know him.
Q Did you hear about the fact that a report concerning experiments had come in to the R.L.M.?
A No.
Q Did you hear anything about the showing of a film in September 1942?
A No.
Q Tell me now , who was responsible for the agenda for the technical talks and who set the date for them.
A. I myself.
Q. And you learned nothing of the showing of that film?
1648-A
A No.
Q Witness, there is an unclarity here in the paper concerning the position of the Luft-hansa. Did the Luft-hansa have anything to do with military organizations?
A No. All during the war repair stations of the Luft-hansa were put at the disposal of the Luftwaffe or used as repair shops for the Luftwaffe. That is the only thing that happened on a militaristic basis or in the military field. However, for most of the time they repaired water transport planes. For instance, they worked on Junker-52 or Junker planes, which in itself was part of the work which the Luft-hansa used to do all the time.
Q Witness, do you know if Milch belonged to the inner circle of Hitler's.
A No.
Q Witness, please explain your "no". That is not quite clear. Do you know it or don't you know it? Do you know if ho belonged to the circle or don't you?
A Well, I don't know how to understand your expression "inner circle".
Q In other words, do you mean those who wore confidential men of Hitler.
A No, Mich was not a confidential man of Hitler.
Q Is it correct that only with Goering's approval he could go and see Hitler?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that duds fell over Germany? Who eliminated those?
AAs far as I know there were special groups taking care of that. There were people who were around the armament centers. They were under the Luftgaucommando, and one officer was ordered who saw to it that after an air raid these people went to certain places which had been named by the police and where the duds were then removed. They saw to it that the duds were removed. I myself as commander of the Luftgau have watched these groups while working and I also gave them decorations and distinctions.
There were special fire experts who knew all about the newest bombs of the enemy.
Q Were these Germans or foreigners?
A They were Germans, German soldiers as a matter of fact.
Q Witnesses testified here to the effect that foreigners helped there as well. Do you know anything about that?
A No, I don't.
Q Witness, do you know that on 30 January 1943 Goering made a speech concerning the Russian campaign, and that he spoke of cowards and weaklings who had worried about the Russian campaign?
A Yes, I do. I remember exactly that happened in the RLM, in the great honor hall. There was a certain delay at that time of an hour and a half approximately. There was an air raid and the speech was only held a little later. That speech was transmitted to the people, and of course, there was quite a confusion about the whole thing. I also believe that that speech was not held on the 30th of January but only on 1 February, as far as I can remember. And he spoke about the necessity of the Russian campaign, and he said that at that time, of course, there were weaklings who had said that this campaign should not take place, and in continuation of that speech he said those are always the same cowards. That approximately was how the speech went.
Q Whom do you think that he meant by that?
A It was clear to me that he meant Field Marshal -- among others
THE PRESIDENT: We don't mind very much this witness telling what he thinks Milch may have meant by something, but I don't want him to go beyond that and tell what he thinks Hitler night have meant by what he said. You are asking this witness to guess. That is going too far. Do you understand?
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, I believe that your objection comes from the fact that the interpretation could not have come to you.
THE PRESIDENT: My objection is to the question, not to the answer. You are asking this witness to guess what Hitler might have meant -
DR. BERGOLD: Goering.
THE PRESIDENT: -- by certain words that he used. Well -- Goering, all right. You have been doing that with Milch right along, but I think you are going- too far when you ask him to put his interpretation on what a number of other people might have meant by certain words.
DR. BERGOLD: Well, may it please Your Honors, I think that one has to know the situation in Germany at that time in order to be able to understand that. Everybody at that time knew of the conflict between Goering and Milch, and everyone in the Air Ministry and also the German people knew whom he meant by that certain remark even though he didn't mention the name. Such an affront before the public could not take place; that is, if he mentions the name, naturally, and if I put such a speech before you, then there is a lack of knowledge of various facts which we Germans know, which you do not know, however, I can only explain it to you by asking the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: All right I am sorry I mentioned it. I will join Judge Musmanno in retiring from this debate.
Q (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, do you know of Milch participated with money in the Air Armament industry.
A No.
Q Do you know that he participated with money or don't you know it?
A He did not participate.
Q Is it correct that Milch on his 50th birthday accepted or refused a bonus from the Air Armament Industry of 50,000 marks.
A He refused it. His life was modest. I remember his 50th birthday very well. Admiral Laas appeared there, the President of the Union of the German Air Industry, and he wanted to present him with that amount. The Field Marshal told me that he refused that gift.
Q Was Milch a profiteer? Of the National Socialist System?
A No. On the contrary he refused -- he was rather modest and he refused to have a villa in Berlin.
Q Do you know what his position was about the master race theory of the Nazis?
A He was against this theory.
Q Witness, it has been said here that Milch showed to foreign visitors secret weapons or secret industries of Germany. Do you know if he had the permission of his higher authorities.
A Yes, indeed. Before any foreign visitor or group of visitors could be shown certain parts of the Luftwaffe, he had to have a special permission.
Q Witness, I am not interested in the fact that he had to or did not have to. I want to know if he did.
A Yes, he did. I myself at the time was chief of the 6th department of the General Staff. That was the armament department and that division was the competent division which would issue permission. We had to receive our permission from Goering.
DR. BERGOLD: For the time being I have no more questions to the witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q When did you enter the German Army?
A On 5 June 1917.
Q What was your rank in 1939?
A Lieutenant Colonel.
Q When did you become a Colonel?
A 1941.
Q What date?
A I have to look in my pay book.
Q No, no. Don't look in your soldiers' book. Leave it there. Just tell me what date you became a Colonel.
A I believe on the 1st of March.
Q And when were you promoted after that?
A 1943; on the 1st of March, Brigadier General.
Q Brigadier General in your army is known as General-Major, is it not?
A Yes.
Q And did you get promoted after that?
A In 1944 on 1 July, Major General.
Q And was that the rank you held at the end of the war?
A Yes.
Q You were a Colonel then in 1942, is that right?
A Yes.
Q You said that you first know Milch in 1937. What was your position at the outbreak of the war in September 1939?
A Chief of the 6th department of the General Staff of the Air Force or Luftwaffe.
Q Where was your office?
A In the RLM with the Air Ordnance Master General.
Q How long did you hold that post?
A From 1 July 1938 to 1 November 1941.
Q Then where did you go?
A Then I became chief of the Technical Division "C", Department "C".
Q Is that the "B" office in the Generalluftzeugmeister?
A Yes.
Q And that "A" office that you spoke of in the GL, that's an office that is now shown on that chart, but it is an office that has parallel functions with yours?