Q Fitness, one more question. Do you remember, concerning the famous happening at Compiegne, that he was invited there?
A Yes, he was invited there. However, he did not go because in 1938 he had met the French Air Minister, together with a couple of other officers in Berlin, and. he did. not want to humiliate him.
Q Did he think that treatment was wrong?
A Yes, indeed.
THE PRESIDENT: We are not quite clear what you meant by the famous event or happening. That was the French surrender at Compiegne?
DR. BERGOLD: That is a tricky word which I used. You
DR. BERGOLD: That is a tricky word which I used. You will remember that Hitler's campaign used the wagon which General Foch used in 1918 in order to sign the Armistice, and hitler had blown up the F& ch memorial. You know that it was some way of mine to snow you my criticism of that matter. At that time there was a considerable stir all over the world about that train.
Q (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, I wish now to come back to the records of all the sessions which were made. Do you know if any of these records were ever reviewed?
A These records could never be checked, even by the Field Marshall, but we could review them, the Field Marshall and myself, after the sessions. That is why it was done in the following manner, that these verbatim records, namely an excerpt of the most important things that had been decided on during the session, and sent to all those concerned and interested. This record, that excerpt of the record, I always reviewed myself before it went out. However, we had so much work to do that these thick records, that were that thick, could not be read.
Q Do you know that there were many mistakes in those records, inaccuracies?
A Yes, indeed. If we had to check up on something and we were trying to find a certain passage we noticed that some thing had been recorded wrong, which, considering the fact that those sessions were so long, was not surprising at all.
Q Witness, you spoke of the work you had. You had too much work you said, Can you tell me how many signatures approximately a day Milch had to give?
A I can only judge it from the fact as to how many I had to sign. There were approximately five to six hundred signatures a day, and I am sure that the Field marshal Milch himself had more than that.
Q Do you know whether in the evening, after the end of the work hours he took several cases with work and signatures home in order to be able to sign them there?
A Yes, I saw that several times, because I was in his room very often when he was about ready to go home, The driver came out, came upstairs, and took those cases which were filled with documents and reading material, took them down, and I also saw that several times in the morning, early in the morning when the driver brought back these cases with the documents, back to the office. That was not possible to be done in any other way because during the day he only had time for conferences and discussions.
Q Witness, do you know that very often during conferences the stenotypist was given instructions as to removing certain strong words used there criticizing Hitler or Goering, or to change them?
A Yes, I do. I saw that happen once, several tines rather, sometime ago.
Q Witness, I shall come back to those strong expressions used by Milch. Do you know that in the German army if anything goes wrong, if a responsible man was looked for, he will be hanged?
A Yes, we said that very often without actually thinking of carrying out that threat.
Q Can it be said then it was only a strong expression or an expression of indignation which, for instance, as some times you say in the American army, "Go to hell"?
A. That is about the same. In our army we used to say, "This guy should be hanged."
Q. When Milch used such an expression of indignation did it ever happen that he apologized later on?
A. Yes, he apologized later on.
Q. Witness, were you present during the address to the oberquartiermeister and the air fleet engineers of the 25th of January, 1944 -
A. Yes.
Q. That was a biting speech, wasn't it? Here strong words used there?
A. Yes, that was a state of affairs when the air raids were taking place day by day and night by night, and after several factories could no longer be used and parts were being sought for, and the conference had the purpose to get from the quarter masters and engineers of the air fleet the material, which was at their disposal. Many spare parts for airplanes at that time were already with the troops, and we needed those parts urgently in older to rebuild planes and to complete them which were under construction, and that was a very strong appeal to these people, to the troops, to the industry, or rather to the troops to help the industry with spare parts.
Q. How can you explain then that he used strong words with reference to foreign laborers and laborers, how can you explain that, was that in the whole attitude, in the whole mood?
A. I do not know of anything, that such strong expressions were used against labor as far as I know. He spoke against the bureauocracy, because all the offices, the troops held on to those spare parts and wouldn't hand them out. That had nothing to do with the laborers themselves. I only remember that he used strong words against the and the quartermasters.
DR. BERGOLD: You may translate that expression literally.
THE PRESIDENT: Can we understand the translation was not literal? It is just as well.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, can you tell me now what consideration led to the creation of the fighter staff?
A. All the efforts made by the Field Marshal and his subordinate chiefs of offices did not have the result which was to be expected. Higher up in contradiction with every reason no great program had been ordered, but again and again they came back to the bomber program, and that constant struggle in which this field marshal was with Goering and Hitler and later on also with Speer and all his subordinate division chiefs in order to increase the fighter production, at least to be able to stop the air raids on the industry and the population, at least to reduce them if not stop them, finally in 1941 moved them to withdraw from the responsibility of air industry, air armament, as his immediate resignation during the war could not be considered and expected. The Field Marshal tried as he told me. He tried to do it in this way. That concerned the responsibility for the production of planes through the proposal of the fighter staff and that he got rid of it. He only wanted to keep for the air force the development and the testing of planes, engines and mechanisms, but as far as the production was concerned he wanted to place this into the hands of Speer.
Q. For the purpose, of that transfer, did he use a man from the Speer Ministry who was responsible for all these difficulties which arose? Who was it?
A. Mr. Sauer.
Q. Is it correct that he always would remain away from the conferences of Jaegerstab, that he sent his deputy there more often?
A. Yes. At the beginning he used to go there very often but then later on less frequently. Then he no longer participated in these conferences.
Q. When did Milch entirely resign or withdraw from the air armament?
A. That was at the same time when I withdrew, that must have been around the 20th of June, 1944. June, that is correct.
Q. Later on was there a great transfer necessary or had the Jaegerstab already been carried out?
A. The Jaegerstab had already been carried out at that time. A major transfer was not necessary, particularly considering the fact that the division chief of the planning office became the major chief of the technical air armament about six or eight months later. He was in charge of the office and all the conferences and sessions of the G. L. and the fighter staff. In other words, he knew all about it.
Q. Witness, do you know who asked for the underground transfer of the Armament Industry?
A. Yes, I believe that Hitler, together with Goering, had discussed that and had ordered that.
Q. Do you know what Mileh's attitude was towards that?
A. It was clear to both him and us that the time factor had come too late and that these factories could no longer be finished before the end of the war. As it actually was later the case, they were not completed.
Q. Does that apply to the cement factories?
A. Yes.
Q. Whom were they ordered by?
A. Also by Goering and Hitler.
Q. Will you describe to us now how the Jaegerstab functioned and how it was set up?
A. There were a few constant members in that fighter staff, Jaegerstab, and during all sessions these people from the Speer Ministry and the GL, also from the Air Industry, were called to attend or to discuss a point which had to be decided upon. The decision did not go from the Jaegerstab to the respective offices, but that person of the Armament Industry Speer or the GL asked for that via his assistant.
Q. Is it correct that those conferences always started with a general address and then went into a group of small sessions?
A. Yes, the Jaegerstab, every eight or fourteen or fifteen days, took a trip into a certain territory. All the people necessary for that task from the industry of economy, from the political leadership, and from armament inspectorates, etc. were used. At the beginning the Field Marshal always made the speech concerning the seriousness of the military situation, and what efforts would be necessary. Then Sauer took it over and after Sauer's speech the conference was distributed in small working discussions; in other 1628 words, raw material, construction, labor assignments, air raid precautions, etc.
, etc.
Q During those single conferences did Milch always participate?
A We never participated in these single conferences because they only concerned certain fields.
Q Did the Jaegerstab men recruit foreign laborers from the foreign countries or draft them?
A No, it did not have the authority to do so, nor the newer to do so.
Q Did the Jaegerstab change anything on the GBA?
A No, everything remained the same.
Q Or then on the concentration come factories which belonged to Himmler?
A No, not that I know of.
Q. When these construction plans had been carried out by the Organization Todt, did the Jaegerstab or the GL have any possibility to influence them with respect to laborers?
A No, the OT was immediately under Speer.
Q Do you know anything about Kammler or that Himmler or Hitler had assigned him to work in their subterranean factories?
A I remember that Kammler went on part of the trip with us and ate with us on that trip.
Q Do you know that Hitler, concerning the construction of bunkers, had used one hundred thousand Jewish concentration camp inmates?
A During my inspection together with Gauleiter Giessler and the Munich Gauleiter Schreier, I heard about that.
Q When was that?
A That was in October or November 1944.
Q Milch at that time had already resigned from the GL?
A Yes, that was a matter which had nothing to do with the GL, because I, in my position of commander, discussed that matter together with the Gauleiters who had been invited, together with me.
Q Herr Schmelter deposed that Jewesses were used in the manufacture of planes. Do you know anything about it?
A No, I don't. During my inspection tours I never saw any.
Q Would that have become known to you in your position?
A Yes, I am sure that would have become known to me.
Q In one of the teletypes of February 14, 1944, Goering asked from Himmler for concentration camp inmates for the air armament. Did the GL know about that letter?
A I cannot recall this letter.
Q Who was responsible for these cement constructions? Who was responsible for them, the GL or the Jaegerstab?
A It was Speer with his Organization Todt, OT.
Q The Central Planning once sent to the armament staff a special steel contingent. Was that for construction work for the OT or for planes?
A That could only have been used for the construction of planes because we had nothing to do with other sorts of construction.
Q What do you know, generally sneaking, about what the construction manager had to do with the steel contingent?
A Somebody was to carry cut a construction. A certain contingent was given.
to him and he, the person, was charged with it.
Q. One was charged with it. Whom do you mean by one was charged with it?
A. The construction manager the nan requesting the construction.
Q. If the GL asked for such construction, then the GL would have been charged with it?
A. Yes. Well, just about, or the Luftwaffe.
Q. What did you do about it? When did the GL start with the transfer on the surface?
A. We started our transfer on the surface, as far as I con remember, after the first daylight attack of the American Air Force on the Messerschmitt Factory at Regensburg. At this present moment, however. I cannot remember the exact date. It must have been towards the end of 1942. However, I can be wrong. It night be early in 1942.
Q. Did the Jaegerstab ever carry out construction work for itself?
A. No.
Q. However, the general construction situation was discussed with the Jaegerstab. Why did that happen?
A. Because partly the execution of the program depended on this, that the construction had to be finished by then in order to be able to produce those constructed buildings.
Q. Was Stobbe Oetlefessen a member of Jaegerstab?
A. No, he was only present once or twice in the first sessions when we discussed construction.
Q. Goering delegated throe construction companies from the Luftwaffe. Were these people Germans or were they foreign laborers?
A. They were Germans. Most of then were old people, that I saw, and I had. one of those battalions of the Luftwaffe in my sector. They built runways for tho airfields.
Q. Did Milch have any power over these companies?
A. No, they were under the juartermaster General of the General staff.
Q. Witness, during one of the Jaegerstab conferences miners were dis cussed.
Do you remember that?
A. Yes, I also know what they were used for. They were used for these surface constructions, bunker constructions. They were used if one was to construct a shaft in order to remove sand, from the finished vaults, There was a difficulty in providing these miners, and as far as I can remember, they were people who were then later on trained by the SS and put at our disposal for that purpose.
Q Do you know that Milch wanted miners from Berchtesgaden?
A Yes, but I don't believe that he got them.
Q Do you know if these miners from Berchtesgaden were Germans or if they were foreigners or concentration camp inmates?
A They could only have been Germans, and no foreigners and no concentration camp inmates, because only skilled German personnel was allowed to work on the Obersalzberg.
Q If, during that conference, it was mentioned that miners were wanted by the SS from Croatian and Italian engineers, were those to be foreigners?
A No, I am sure that they must have been Germans too. In Italy, for instance, they were constructing the fortifications, and as I mentioned before, they were to be trained by the SS and they were all Germans.
Q Do you mean concentration camp inmates?
A No, free Germans.
Q Do you know that Hitler proposed to have ten thousand miners trained by the SS?
A Yes, I remember I have heard about that, but I can only remember vaguely.
Q We already mentioned Mr. Kammler before. In other words, he was not a leading member of the Jaegerstab?
A No, as far as I can remember he was only there once during the trip we took.
Q Was Schmelter a member of the fighter staff, the Jaegerstab?
A Yes, I believe he was.
1632 a
Q. Wasn't he under the GBA?
A. Schmelter was from the Armament Industry as far as I can remember.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal is in recess until tomorrow morning 0930 hours.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 11 March 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 11 larch, 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their sets.
The Honorable, the Judges cf Military Tribunal 2.
Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
HOLFGANG VORWALD - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, yesterday we spoke about the single members of the Jaegerstab. Do you know Herr Schlemm?
A Yes, I do.
Q Was he a permanent leading member of the Jaegerstab?
A Whether he was a permanent member cf the Jaegerstab, I do not know. However, he participated often in their session; also in the trips which the Jaegerstab took.
Q That was Baumann-Schlemm, wasn't it, the representative of Dorsch?
A Yes.
Q Who was it generally specking within the air armament industry and ever since the be inning of the war concerning the constructions for the war industry -- was that the GL or who was it?
A No, the GL had nothing to do with it. The GL could only make the requirement or to have certain things constructed or extended, new constructions, etc.
Q Who w o it who actually ordered those constructions of the air armament industry? For instance, in Berlin.
A. At that time I had not yet taken over my office and I did not know who did it at the time.
1634-A
Q. Who was it after 1941 when you were in that office?
A. At that time the construction works were carried out by the armament ministry.
Q. What was Speer's position with respect to the construction work in Berlin?
A. He was the construction inspector.
Q. In other words, he was the highest construction manager in Berlin?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Milch tell you when the Jaegerstab was founded that he, apart from the plan concerning the fighter program, wanted to increase it by using the Speer ministry concerning this program? Do you know anything about that?
A. He told me that he wanted to withdraw slowly but surely from that air armament.
Q. Also for personal reasons?
A. Yes. There were serious differences of opinion between him and Goering, and these probably moved him to withdraw slowly from this whole matter. All his proposals which he had made since the end of 1941, since he took over his office, which aimed at reinforcing the fighter force, the defensive force, and to which nobody would listen, neither the Jaegerstab nor Goering nor Hitler, made him try to get out of the whole matter.
Q. Witness, do you know that Milch, because of the evaluation of the situation, that is, a refusal of a defensive war by the higher leadership, had a long series of discussions concerning the change of the leadership of the Reich?
A. Yes, he told me about that, too.
Q. Would you tell us in more detail about it?
A. The fundamental discussion took place after the Stalingrad affair.
with the Fuehrer as he told me later on. That was a very long discussion which lasted into the week hours of the night.
1635 A
Q. I do not moan that conference, Witness. I mean other discussions concerning the higher leadership of the Reich and how it could be changed.
A. Yes, Milch mentioned that also.
Q. Do you know anything about that fact with reference to the Reichs Cabinet, Reichs Chamber?
A. Yes, ho wanted to have the Reichs government placed on a broader basis and he wanted it to be a real government which was supported by the confidence of the people on a broader basis.
Q. Is it correct that that was the reason why he had discussions with Goering?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the purpose of this whole thing with reference to Hitler.
A. He wanted to dam the dictatorship and institute a new leadership of the state affairs and also the Wehrmacht.
Q. Did that happen for the purpose of the continuation of the aggressive war or for the purpose of concluding a peace?
A. The latter is the point. He had the notion that on a political basis a peace-treaty might be come to which would be bearable. Therefore, it was necessary that the aggressive measures be ceased and that a defensive war should be started in all fields. The military situation according to the Fieldmarshal could only with strong defense be survived, that is militaristically.
Q. Do you know about his attempts. Did they ever succeed in doing anything about it?
A. No, he always failed.
Q. Can you tell in how far Hitler was against the plan of a defensive war with reference to the fighter force?
A. Yes. The thing was in the following manner, I will give an example for it. The Jet-propelled, the ME-262. That new plane had been declared a. pure fighter plane, and developed as such by the GL and all offices interested in it. All efforts were made in order with respect to this size of plane for us to produce it as a fighter. Hitler had ordered that it should be used at the front not as a fighter but rather as a "Blitz" bomber. All objections made by the GL, and also by the Air Industry that the plane could not be used as a bomber, and that it was against its nature to be used as a bomber were of no avail. Hitler ordered, it will only be used as a "blitz" bomber.
In spite of that fact, again and again the GL and also the general of the fighter arms, General Gallant, and also other generals and persons tried via Goering and even Hitler himself to change his mind. However, nobody succeeded in doing so; on the contrary Hitler issued an order prohibiting strictly every discussion on ME-262, (Messerschmidts 262.) In other words, all discussions amongst comrades and in masses, were a 11 forbidden.
Q. All of that occurred in order to eliminate every sort of discussion so that the plane will only be used as a bomber?
A. Yes. This was to prevent everybody in the office to think about this plane ever having been considered a fighter-plane. Hitler wished to express his resolution finally: "This plane will be used as a "blitz" bomber." According to my opinion this decision considerably slowed down the construction of the planes by at least half a year, or six months, and that is how the German fighter force received quite a blow.
Q. Witness, do you know that even as far as -- or as late as 1944 the construction of bombers for aggressive purposes had been ordered? Again and again?
A. Yes, and even after the creation of the Jaegerstab. I remember a conference which we had with Goering in Berchtesgaden, that we were in some manner interested, at the end of May 1944, in which generals from the general staff, General Gallant and General Pelz, who wore of the general fighter force, the GL, and also Morton and Sauer from the armament Ministry, and they all participated in the discussion. It was a discussion of a program, and the point was, that Goering has to be reported to concerning this now program draft, which had been drawn up together with the Jaegerstab and the GL, and after a long discussion with the Air Industry. In this program the particular in-crease of the fighters and night fighters had been expressed. It was a purely defensive program.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Bergold, may I interrupt for a moment.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Does not it seem that this is all rather far afield, the program with reference to the bomber construction and the fighter construction. Now for the last ton minutes the witness has boon describing a certain program, and the name of Milch has not boon mentioned once. We are concerned in ascertaining the guilt or innocence of the defendant and not the programs f r reaching action as to whether the bombers should be emphasized as against the fighters, and soon.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. May it please Your Honor. If the de fendant' s witness speaks of "GL", he means by that, of course, the defendant Filch.