This can not be explained in any other way.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until one-thirty.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours 27 March 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. HARDY: The Tribunal: It has been called to my attention that the fendant Hoven intends to call a witness named Dr. Horn, a Czecho Slovakian citizen, as a voluntary witness, and I haven't heard any further reports. The original intention was to call him tomorrow and I would like to know at this *********** or not they intend to call Dr. Horn tomorrow and interrup the Examination of tho defendant, Mrugowsky, so that Dr. Horn can return to Czecho Slovakia. If so, the Prosecution is perfectly agreeable to such pr** *nd I want to announce that and find out whether they intend to call him *****ow.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has not been advised of any such procedure.
MR. HARDY: Then will I be lead to understand we will not have the witness Horn tomorrow?
THE PRESIDENT: No, and if there is any occasion for calling him and it can be done without unduly interrupting the procedure, depending somewhat on how long is testimony will be, it might be allowed, but I do not remember any information being conveyed to the Tribunal, that such a program was in contemplation. There as one called tho other day for the witness Hoven out of order.
MR. HARDY: That is correct. I had notification of another one he intended of all if he intends to call another one tomorrow I would like to have the opportunity of preparing for the witness.
DR. FLEMMING: I could say that Dr. Gawlik has not progressed so far with is preparations as to know whether he can call the witness tomorrow, perhaps * will find out this afternoon, but I do not know yet whether or not he will ready tomorrow morning.
THE PRESIDENT: Will counsel for the defendant, Mrugowsky, have any objection of interrupting his case for the calling of this witness on behalf of the defendant Hoven, if it is desired to do so.
DR. FLEMMING: Since the witness will also testify regarding matters which *k place in Buchenwald I will have no objection to that.
MR. HARDY: Thank You.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued) BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q. Will you please draw the necessary deductions from what we have now discovered about Ding's diary?
A. The various erroneous entries in this document and the facts which the handwriting experts have discovered prove that this document is not a diary in which entries were made from time to time. Rather there are long periods of time that are missing, sometimes periods of more than one year before the entries were made. Pages 1 to 3, I believe, were written all at the same time, and also the subsequent pages. The document has 27 pages - were written down at only a few tines. That is testified to by the handwriting expert's statement. This explains the various discrepancies between the entries and the actual facts; for instance, of calling the Robert Koch Institute a Reich Institute, when it wasn't, etc. The testimony of a prosecution witness Balahowski corroborates this affidavit.
Q. This affidavit is in Document Book 12 as Document 484, Prosecution Exhibit 291. Balahowski said, under number 29: "The file notes that were copied into the diary shortly before the collapse give the precise number of the pages and the number of the experiments." Now please continue.
A. In these words Balahowski corroborates the fact that this diary, namely, this diary of Block 47, was drawn up shortly before the collapse, apparently on several days, consequently the difference in the typewriters used. Now, as to why he did this I can only conjecture - I do not know. That there was some reason for making the entries in this form would appear to be obvious.
Q. For the explanation why Ding wrote this diary on Block 46 let me remind you of Kogon's testimony, namely, that Ding after 1943 was sure that the war would be lost.
A. Yes, that is true. Kogon testified during his testimony often that Ding from the beginning of 1943 on made efforts to cover himself.
He also said that from that moment on the oral assignments that he received were not sufficient but that he must insist on receiving written orders. All the more remarkable is it then that in the so-called diary, this Document 265, says only very infrequently who initiated the various lines of experimentation. And, if I recall correctly, he does not once say who ordered them.
Q. Then do the contents of this diary meet the requirements that one makes of a scientist's diary?
A. The diary of a scientist has the purpose of setting down the precise course of the work undertaken. Consequently, all efforts regarding the initiation and course of experiments should be set down. That is a perfectly comprehensible custom in all institutes because subsequently the evaluation of the experiments is based on entries in the scientific institute's diary. In his Document 265, however, which is allegedly such a diary of Block 46, there is not one entry regarding the actual course of the experiments; not even the results of the experiments are set down there. That is really the least that you could ask of such a diary. Dr. Kogon, to be sure, thought that the number of fatalities which are set down with clear precision were a result, to be sure, an unhappy result, of these experiments. That these events are found lamentable can hardly be disputed but it is a false point of view if one orients oneself on the basis of this result toward something, the purpose of which was entirely different. The real experimental result can be seen in the following: As a consequence of the protective vaccination what happens during a subsequent case of infection is that the period of incubation is prolonged, namely, that period of time that lapses between0 the actual infection and the first appearance of the disease. Secondly, the period of fever is shortened, whereas usually the period of fever in typhus is 17 days. This protective vaccination reduces it to 12, 10, and even 6 days, depending on the strength of the protective vaccine. At the same time the height of the fever, or temperature, is reduced. In other words, the symptoms that are associated with fever that effect the blood circulation and the heart, as well as those that effect the central nervous system, are after the protective vaccine less pronounced or altogether absent.
There are various other small clinical indications which a doctor readily recognizes as a result of the protective vaccine and it must be said that as the result of less serious clinical manifestations the number of fatalities from typhus is smaller. That is not a direct but an indirect consequence of vaccination. Therefore, when Ding asserts in this Block Diary of Block 46 that the most important result of the experiments was the number of fatalities, then every doctor will recognize this as such an erroneous and distorted statement that even if it is on the part of a doctor so reliable as Ding it is completely unworthy of credence.
Q. I now show you Mrugowsky Document 9 which is on page 81 to page 85 of the document book and I put it in as Mrugowsky Exhibit 23. It is a photo copy of a paper by Dr. Ding on the protective action of various vaccines on human beings and the course of typhus after immunization. I do not wish to read the document but simply bring it to the attention of the Tribunal. Would you care to make any statement whether the inadequate way in which this diary was worked on? Would you like to say that perhaps Ding was not in a position to carry on such work?
A. This paper is 13 pages long. First there is the manner of the patient's tolerance for the vaccine, then the individual points that I just mentioned as the consequences of the protective vaccination are gone into. Tables are presented which give statistics in these matters. On page 85c of the document book there are eight sketches in which there are graphs showing the results and at the very bottom on the next to the last page, in the next to the last paragraph, there are three lines which say that the fatalities in the cases of those vaccinated were fewer in number than among those who were not vaccinated. That is all mentioned in the summary - there is a final summary. This is also an indication that he was perfectly capable of carrying on scientific work. I should like to point out that at the top of this paper it is mentioned that this work was done in by institute in Berlin.
I knew that as an indication that I laid no stress on keeping these matters secret in any way or that which it was my point of view that these experimental results/had been achieved on the most expensive of all material, namely, human beings, should be carried through to conclusion and that results of them should be made available to all those who were interested.
Q. The Prosecution also charges you with the fact Ding infected persons in Buehewald who had not previously received the protective vaccination. Would ou like to make a statement in that subject?
A. The following cases come into question here. On the basis of Ding's diary entries. First of all, there are the so-called "preliminary experiments". In Document 265, four **** such preparatory experiments are mentioned on unvaccinated persons. These were done in order to as certain what way was possible in order to artificially infect human beings with typhus. I always found that the lay person who had never concerned himself with these matters assumes it to be a matter of course that it is always possible to infect a human being with a disease. That, however, is by no means the case. Even in the case of such a toxic material as the typhus germ, successful infection can only occur if if is not directed directly into the blood stream. Unless another way is chosen it is usually impossible to bring about the induction with such a disease. Consequently, when such experiments are to be carried out on human beings, and this is a point of view that I express without any reference to my own person, then such preliminary experiments cannot be dispensed with. The second case are the so-called "controlled cases".
Q. Did you know anything of these preliminary experiments?
A. No, I found out about them only through the diary.
Q. Ding says in his diary under the 20th of February, 1942: "Case histories and curves on the preliminary experiments were sent to Berlin." Did you receive this report?
A. No, nor do I believe Ding sent it to me because he was not subordinate to me in these experiments and it seems, therefore, more probable to me that he sent them to Grawitz. I, at any rate, did not see them.
Q. How can this be recondiled with your letter of 5 May 1942 to Conti and others which I put in evidence this morning as Document No. 10, Exhibit Mrugowsky 20, and which is to be found on page 86 of the document book?
A. This letter corroborates what I have just testified to because the report on this series of experiments was sent to Grawitz and I received Ding's report to Grawitz from Grawitz with the order to rewrite it in a suitable form since Grawitz did not wish that outside persons could see, without any further trouble to themselves, that these were really experiments on human beings with artificial infection. He know that, to some extent, I could master the style that he used in his official communications, whereas he did not know whether Ding could or not. Consequently, he commissioned me to take Ding's original report and, for the purpose of making communications to the manufacturing firms, to cast it in a suitable form. This I did and the result is this document on page 86 of 5 May 1942.
Q. Your letterhead here is Reichsarzt and Police Chief Hygienist. In other words, this is one of the cases in which Grawitz made use of you when you still belonged to the medical staff of the Waffen SS?
A. Yes.
Q. Why didn't Grawitz rephrase the letter himself?
A. There may have been two reasons for that. First, Grawitz was not a hygienist but an interist and since the letter was being sent to specialists; namely, these who manufactured the vaccines, he wanted to be sure that everything would be in the letter which they needed to know and, on the other hand, no more than they needed to know, and secondly, this is quite in line with his customary manner of working; namely, to let his collaberators write letters that dealt with their particular sphere of work, and for this reason, he commissioned me to indite this letter.
Q. On this occasion did you not once again express objections to Grawitz regarding experiments on human beings?
A. That I did not do because this series of experiments had been concluded and because I knew that they had been carried out on Himmler's specific orders. This was the first series of experiments that had ever been carried out and it was the reason for my very violent show-down with Grawitz at that time. I assumed that this job was now completed and I had no reason to raise further objections.
Q. Were the vaccines of the Behring Works, when Dr. Ding used them in his experiments, in an experimental stage?
A. No, these vaccines had already been tested in the plant to persons' tolerance for them. All such preparations of the Behring Works, before they were sent out into the world, were worked on in their own laboratories.
Q. I submit to the Tribunal Mrugowsky Document 44, to be found on page 96 of Document Book 1, and I put it in as Mrugowsky Exhibit 24. This is an affidavit by Dr. Demnitz, the manager of the Behring Works, regarding she way in which the vaccines of the Behring Works were developed and how they were tested in the institute itself. On the fourth page, namely page 99 of the Document book, No. 5 reads:
"Naturally, the Behring Works also carried out tests to establish whether the vaccines agreed with human beings for(a) it was necessary to vaccinate these people working in the typhus laboratories in order to protect them against typhus infection; (b) it was necessary to protect those people who attended tho experimentals animals, (c) the undersigned himself was on several occasions vaccinated against typhus with vaccines of the Behring Works.
These vaccinations had to be repeated from time to time. This concerned both and Russian assistants. In our typhus department, about 20 to 25 persons were employed."
And Number 6: "The animal experiments according to Otto proved: (a) the harmlessness and (b) the effectiveness or insufficient effectiveness."
Previously, in No. 4 on Page 99, it stated "the question, Whether the animals showed a positive reaction, is incomprehensible." It stated also that animal experiments were carried out in the Behring Works. I submit this document to prove these were not vaccines which had not been previously proved, but were vaccines which had gone through the necessary preliminary and effective testing. Do you remember Kagan's testimony that volunteers were used in tic first two series of experiments? This testimony is on page 1162 of the English record and on page 1197 of the German record. If we base our assumptions on Ding's diary, what two series of experiments must these have been for which volunteers were used?
A. If we base our statements on Ding's diary we can only consider that these two series were, first of all, the preliminary series A which began on 5 January and the first series of vaccine experiments with 145 persons regarding which the letter that was previously read - Mrugowsky Document 20 - cf 5 May 1942 concerns itself. This series began on the next day; namely, on 6 January 1942. Any other experiments took place at a later date, Thus, when Kegan's say that two series cf experiments were carried out with volunteers, it can only be these two series of experiments.
Q. The experiments about which the letter of 5 May concerned itself were carried out on volunteers?
A. Apparently they were.
Q. Can you remember the communication of 11 April 1943; that the Mateska serum could no longer be used for experiments?
A. No, I don't remember that and I consider it out of the question that I ever received any such communication. In all bacteriology, particularly in virology, there have been efforts for centuries to breed living germs which are no longer pathogenic which do not make human beings sick, in or to use these living germs for the manufacture of vaccine, namely vaccines with living attenuated strains because these are a complete protection against the disease.
Q. In other words, you want to say that if you had received this communication then you would have seen to it that further experiments were carried out with this no longer so virulent serum?
A. I should not like to put it quite that way but I should certainly had got in touch with the person whose institute had developed this strain, that was the Robert Koch Institute, Professor Gildemeister. However, I never spoke to him about this matter and I should like to believe that he found out nothing about this matter because Gildemeister was one of our best virus researchers and was very familiar with what value such a really unique occurrence would have had.
Q. Did you see reports on the C and D series of experiments, regarding the discovery of a safe method of infection, which were said to have taken place on the 11th and 13th of April?
A. No, I found out about them only here, while looking through this document, and also saw that Ding does not assert that he sent a report on this to Berlin.
Q. On what further typhus experiment series did you then see report
A. In the diary of Block 46, Document 265, Ding says that only in the of a few experimental series did he send reports to Berlin, namely of the new experimental series, Series I, II, VII and VIII. Tho report on Series I saw, having received it from Grawitz, and as I said before, I rephrased it in another form and it constitutes the document here submitted.
Series II was carried out with the vaccine of Durant-Giroud of the Parisian Institute. That was the vaccine that we intended to produce in our own institute. I really cannot recall ever having seen this report but it is possible that was informed of it by Grawitz because I remember that Grawitz one day told me that he was convinced of the effectiveness of this vaccine and had no further objection to my suggestion that we manufacture the vaccine according to that process. The immunization in the course of this series was carried on by Ding between 19 August till 4 September 1942. From 10 September to 9 October he was in Paris with Professor Giroud, to learn his method, and who he returned he infected persons and sent the charts to Berlin on 20 November. It is probably then, toward the end of the year 1942, that Grawitz spoke to me about this matter.
Q. Ding was ordered to report to Giroud in Paris in the autum of 1942 although, as you have stated, it was already decided at the end of 1941 to manufacture your own vaccines according to Giroud's process. Now how do you explain this delay?
A. In the infections carried out in Series I on 3 March 1942, Ding info himself and fell seriously ill of Typhus, despite his protective vaccination. Subsequently he went on leave to recover and when his health was somewhat restored then the business of going to Paris was discussed, which was only possible in the autumn.
Q. There were 4 specific fatalities in the control cases. Now you say that Grawitz probably discussed this matter with you. Did you do nothing about the fact that there had been fatalities?
A. When Grawitz spoke to me about this matter I could do nothing because the series of experiments had already been concluded. But I do remember pr*** clearly the situation in his office there. I remember that I brought up the matter of these 4 fatalities and told him that that would probably be the last series that he instigated. He answered that Himmler had ordered these experiments and I myself had specifically objected to being included in this matter, and consequently no longer had any right to interfere in his sus***.
Q. The report on the typhus experimental series VII was concluded on 7 September 1943 and when finished a report was sent to Berlin on 9 September, according to Ding's Deary.
Did you see this report?
A. No.
Q. But according to Ding's work report you were on the 3rd of September, at a time when this series was completed but the report not yet written, **u were, according to this diary, in Buchenwald, visiting Ding. Did you talk about this matter then?
A. This entry is apparently correct. This was the period in which Block 50 was being prepared for the production of the vaccines. Ding writes in one of his documents that on the 10th of August this block was occupied and that work in producing the vaccine was begun. Kogon corroborated that in his testimony. Then 3 weeks after the beginning of this work I went to Buchenwald to look over the laboratory and to see how his work was getting along. Kogan also described at some length how I inspected the institute, how I went into every room. It was a rather extensive inspection. I asked many questions, had many conversations with the inmates there; he further testified that I was with Ding in his room for only a very brief period of time, and that is also correct. In other words, at that time he did not s* to me any material
Q. Did you know anything else about this experimental series VII?
A. This series was carried out with a vaccine similar to the Behring vaccine, manufactured by a different firm. I knew nothing of this experimental series.
Q. I submit to the Tribunal as the next document, Document Mrugowsky 12. It is in the document book on page 92 and I put it in evidence as Mrugowsky Exhibit 25. This is an affidavit by Dr. Karl Ludwig Wolters of Hamburg of the Azid Works. The statement reads, after the customary introduction:
"The above person requested the notary to draw up an affidavit and declared and deposed the following in lieu of an oath and after having been duly informed of the meaning of an affidavit:
"1. The production of typhus vaccines based on the egg culture process began as early as 1941. Later on the prescribed process according to Gildemeister and Hagen was introduced.
"2. Experiments on animals for the purpose of testing the manufactured vaccines were taken up simultaneously with the beginning of the production and were carried out continuously. The results of the animal experiments were not always clear. The vaccine tolerance was tested by protective vaccinations of employees; all employees connected with the typhus department or who came in contact with employees working were vaccinated. Besides, all other employees had the privilege of receiving protective vaccination against typhus on their demand and without charge. In the course of time about one thousand employees have been vaccinated against typhus."
Numbers 3 and 4 I simply draw to the attention of the Tribunal. Number 5 reads:
"5. As far as I know, there was no correspondence between the firm of Azid Serum Institute G.m.b.H., Dessau, on the one hand, and the former Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS or the Institute for Typhus and Virus Research at Buchenwald or its chief, Dr. Ding, or the Grawitz Agency, on the other hand.
"6. I made the acquaintance of Dr. Ding during a trip from Berlin to Cracow.
"7. How the test of the typhus vaccines in question has materialized I could not say. In any case, as far as Court I know, I never discussed that question with Prof.
Mrugowsky, nor did I forward the vaccines to him for the purpose of testing. It is quite possible that the vaccines reached Dr. Ding through Prof. Gildemeister of the Robert Koch Institute in Berlin, who received them in his capacity as expert consultant of the Ministry for the Interior for the fight against epidemics.
"8. During a discussion with Prof. Mrugowsky in the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS in Berlin, I talked only about general questions of hygiene with regard to the occupied eastern territories and I asked for assistance in the work of developing the serum Institute at Kiew. At the same time the organization of de-lousing by the Asid Serum Institute Koenigsberg was discussed. There also may have been a discussion of general questions in connection with active immunization, especially against scarlet fever, diphtheria and tetanus."
Then there is the usual conclusion and signature.
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q. It can be seen from this that the vaccines for this series did not go via you from Ding; is that true?
A. Yes
Q. According to Dr. Ding's work report, which is Document NO-571, Exhibit 285, you were present with him on the 3rd of September in Buchenwald. Did you visit Block 46?
A. Yes. Ding asked me and Invited me to take a look at Block 46. I went over there with him; and I remember quite well that I was led to a stone building, to the lower floor of a stone building, where there were a number of room-like partitions.
In the first room there were a few men who were playing cards; and Ding told me that these were typhus convalescents who had survived typhus and who were to be released. I talked to them and found out that their state of health was good and that the usual after-effects of typhus were no longer in existence. There were about five or six persons.
In the second room I saw about three patients lying in bed. I examined them and spoke to them. They had been transferred to Buchenwald a short time before from other camps. I think one of then was ill even when he arrived and the others had fallen ill shortly after their arrival in Buchenwald and then were transferred to their typhus station. We are here concerned with people who spontaneously fell ill. According to Ding's entry there were no series of experiments carried on at that time.
Q. When visiting Buchenwald, didn't you talk to Dr. Ding about his various series of typhus experiments?
A. No. At that time he had concluded the experimental series Number 7 with Asid vaccines as I can sec from this document. This was a series which had a number of fat fatalities as its result. It is in line with Ding's character that he did not speak to me about such a series of experiments since he know what my basic attitude towards this question was.
Q. Didn't you discuss the typhus experiments with Ding on the occasion of your visit?
A. No, we didn't discuss that matter. Our conversation merely dealt with the work carried on in Block 50 on the production of vaccine, which really was the purpose of my visit. I think.
that we discussed a number of other hygienic questions as they concerned the vicinity of Buchenwald. I knew that there was a lack of water there from my previous activity; and I am sure that this was a subject that was discussed. I spent the evening with Ding in his flat where I met Dr. Hoven, the camp physician of Buchenwald, and his wife. Mrs. Ding was there, too. It is a matter of course that we didn't discuss any technical questions in that circle. We certainly did not speak about any experiments on human beings.
In this connection I may perhaps say that this was the only time that I saw Hoven, who allegedly was to have been Ding's representative. That was ten days before ****on had to end his activity as a camp physician in Buchenwald.
Q. Were you of the opinion that the typhus experimental series had been concluded?
A. Yes. I held that opinion since it becomes evident from the documents here that the experimental series of that time had not led to any disease. That is for the reason that the stain coming from the Robert Koch Institute was not pathogenic. Ding did not say that he sent any reports to Berlin about it; and I therefore did not know anything about the way he worked in Buchenwald as far as it did not concern Block 50. I was of the opinion that after the second series of experiments which was concluded at the end of 1942 no further experiments were
Q. Well, if you believed that the typhus experiments had been concluded, the main activity of Dr. Ding would also have had to come to a conclusion?
No, that is not the case. Seen from my point of view, he was a bacteriologist; and I was anxiously awaiting the end of this special mission by Grawitz so that Ding would again be fully at my disposal.
At that time, in the year of 1943, he had to carry out the preparations for the vaccine production at Buchenwald. Therefore, the building work had to be supervised. Block 50 was a very modernly furnished bacteriological institute with a number of special pieces of equipment. Animals had to be obtained and accomodations gotten ready for them. There was not only one kink of animal but four different one. It was necessary to obtain fodder for them. Then a number of other organizational activities were necessary, which made King's stay in Buchenwald absolutely necessary.
Q. Ding maintains that he sent the report about the series Number 8 of the typhus experiments. Did you see that inn Berlin? It was to have been sent on the 13th of Juno 1911.
A. Well, I heard about this series of experiments only by looking at the document here. I hadn't seen or heard of it before.
Q. In the last entry of his diary Ding says: "By order of the Chief Hygienist of the Waffen SS, dated the 12th of August 1911, it was to be established whether the course of a typhus illness can be mitigated by a typhus vaccine through intravenous or intramuscular injections." Did you ever issue such an order?
A. No. I repeatedly pointed out that on the basis of the entire organizational set-up of the Medical Institute of the Waffen SS I could not as the leading hygienist of the Waffen SS, with the title of Chief Hygienist. I entered the camp and was therefore not in a position to order any experiments to be carried out on inmates because I had just as little influence on the medical service of the concentration camp as any other member of the Waffen SS.
The matter with which we dealt was completely different. In the Crimen in one of the hospitals in the East I saw that the internist there was treating typhoid illnesses by injections of dead typhoid vaccines; and this procedure resulted in the seizure by fever in many of the cases. At that time I remembered that it became apparent from literature dating back from the last world War when a number of papers were written on the very same subject that there were similar treatments regarding typhus and typhoid carried on by the injection of vaccines.
During the course of these years when I had to deal closely with typhus I had developed a very definite opinion about the origination and development of typhus. I was, therefor, of the opinion that in the case this illness, which clinically is very close to para-typhus, it would be quite feasible to make an experiment with that kind of treatment. The clinical symptoms of typhus and typhoid and stomach typhus are very similar. In cure can be achieved with one method, it is to be assumed that all other ****s of illnesses of that nature could also be treated with success using that method. After my return, therefore, I established contact with a number of internees belonging to the hospitals which I knew, and wrote them they had gathered like experiences. I quoted passages from literature on that subject, and I said that our new experiences were the same as our old. I made the suggestion that the same method be used in the case of typhus by injecting with a protective typhus vaccine. One might consider that at the time we had just as little means of combating the severe disease as we have today. We, therefore, were medically justified to search for new meth ods of treatment.
Q Were these to be a series of experiments in the sense in which Dr. Ding carried them out?
A That is completely out of the question. There was no cause to do that whatsoever. In order to combat such an experiment, one could use in a typhus inflicted person a test by this method and the worse that can happen is that it would not help, but certainly would not be necessary to make certain series of experiments, and I certainly never used any such order.
Q Did you write to Ding in that sense?
AAt that time I informed my assistants about this therapy in the case of contageous diseases, and I am sure that it was a matter of course that as epidemic specialists we had to be informed about such a possibility and in this manner also receiving knowledge of it.
Q You were saying that there would have been or would not have been justification for the experimental theory?