A. That is not possible. Ding did not use 30 persons, but 35 or 34. That is to say that the amount of vaccines intended for 30 would not suffice for 35. Moreover, it can be seen from Document No. 62, which was just submitted, that these 30 vaccines could only be delivered or could be expected to be delivered on the 15th of January. They were to be sent to Berlin and not to Buchenwald. If they had been sent away from Marburg on the 15th and if they had to go to Berlin and from there to Buchenwald, they could at the earliest have arrived in Berlin on the 20th of January. Ding, on the other hand, had started to use his vaccines already on the 6th of January. The entry in the diary shows clearly that the vaccinations were started at the period of the 6th of January and continued up to the 1st of February 1942. That does not correspond with the delivery of these thirty portions of vaccine.
Q. And what did you suppose these vaccines were used for?
A. When persons were entrusted with the care of typhus patients, one naturally tried to protect them by vaccination. Now, if these artificially infected people, who have no lice, are not infectious, one must still reckon that their blood contains viruses and therefore could transfer this disease. Since for reasons of treatment injections have to be made through the veins in order to make certain discoveries, the executing persons, the medical personnel, are naturally subject to danger and are therefore being vaccinated. Therefore, it can quite easily be assumed that this vaccine was ordered by Ding for that purpose and was used accordingly.
Q. The defendant just mentioned a document which I now want to submit. This is Document Mrugowsky No. 10 and can be found on page 86 of the document book. I ask you to accept it as Exhibit Mrugowsky No. 20.
I shall submit a photostat of the original to date with the other documents of the Behring Works, and shall submit it in the near future. This is a letter sent by the Reichsarzt SS and police, Chief Hygienist, the defendant Mrugowsky sent to the Behring Works, Marburg/Lahn and also to the Reich Health Leader, Dr. Conti, and all the other persons that can be on the address.
I seems, dr. President, that ' have the original available here, shall then be able to submit it. This letter is a report about the first series of experiments in Buchenwald, which begins: "The tests of 4 typhus vaccines made by us an human subjects at the instigation of the Reich Healthy Leader Dr. Conti had the fallowing results." Then the vaccines are being discussed. The result of the experiments is being discussed, and on page 89 it says, "Immunization against typhus can thus doubtless be obtained by means of a vaccine, produced according to the chicken egg process, which, in its immunization effect, is equal to the vaccine after WEIGL. The effectiveness of protection depends on the method used in producing the vaccine." signed "Dr. Mrugowsky." I shall at a later date come back to that document.
MR. HARDY: May it please, Your Honor, may I inquire as to the whereabouts of the original of this document?
MR. PRESIDENT: Will counsel for defendant answer the prosecution's question?
DR. FLEMMING: Where is the original? Here?
MR. HARDY: No objection to that your Honor.
Q. You were just saying that Dr. Ding still had to test the vaccine of the Behring Works as to its effectiveness; do you believe that in spite o that he already used it for protective vaccinations?
A. He had no choice but to do that. I can well remember the vaccine situation as it prevailed at that time. The vaccine for the Waffen SS was drawn from the central medical depot of the Waffen SS in Berlin. Very small amounts of the vaccine of the Army were at our disposal, but we were always Concerned with very small portions that could be issued, and it was difficult to vaccinate oven a circle of ten persons.
I am therefore convinced that Weigl vaccine was at that time not at our disposal, and as a result of the animal experiments certain effectiveness of that vaccine could be assumed. already. For that reason it was not only used by Ding, but by innumerable other persons. However, it was no weapon with which one could exactly comb epidemics because its value was not fully recognized. This fact shows once more how very urgent the problem of vaccine was in Germany at that time.
Q. You were just speaking about animal experiments; were animal experiments conducted with the chicken-egg vaccines of the Behring Works?
A. The Behring works belonged to the most well known laboratories in the world in this field. The preparations of that firm are World renowned, and are absolutely reliable. One can therefore assume of those preparations of the Behring Works that before distributing any preparations they were examined very closely. I also know that a number of physicians, bacteriologists, and virus research workers, a large group of laboratory assistant were employed at the Institute for that purpose. In the case of other large firms matters are very similar.
DR. FLEMMING: Before we continue to deal with typhus questions I should like to discuss the question of the probative value of the so-called Ding Diary, because this Diary was submitted by the prosecution as one of the main pieces of evidence against you.
Mr. President, the Ding Diary is Prosecution Exhibit No. 287, Document NO-265. It can be found in Document Book No. 12. It is the eighth document to be found in Document Book No. 12, looking at the index. -
Document NO 265.
Q. You have already found out that the conference, of the 29th of December 1941 mentioned in Ding's Diary, did not take place. The correctness of your assertion is confirmed by the file notice submitted by the Prosecution of Ministerialrat Bieber and the affidavits of Dr. Domnitz and Zahn. Is there anything you have to say about the entry of December 29, 1941; you have the Diary before you?
A. Yes. In this entry a number of entries are to be found which are very conclusive.
It says there at first: "President professor Gildemeister of the Robert Koch Institute, Reich Institute to combat contagious diseases." On tho 29th December, 1941 this Institute was not a Reich Institute. It only became a Reich Institution early April of the next year. Up to that time only a Prussian Institution had existed. Gildemeister at that time was not president, but merely vice-president. In addition I myself, am being mentioned as a Standartenfuehrer, whereas I only became a Standartenfuehrer a half year later, and that occurred on tho 21st of June 1942.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, in that connection I am submitting Document Mrugowsky No. 7, which can be found on page 63 of the Document Book, at I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky Exhibit No. 21. This is a certification of tho Robert Koch Institute regarding the fight against contagions diseases, and bears the date of January 29, 1947. It reads:
"After appropriate consultations at the Reich ministry of the Interior in September 1941, it has been decided to make the former 'Prussian Institute for Infectious Diseases Robert Koch' to an institute of tho Reich "The official transfer took place on 1 April 1942.
The institute was named: 'Robert-Koch Institute, Reich Officer for tho Fight against Contagious Diseases.
Then we have the certification by the President of the Robert Koch Institute. This shows that the Robert Koch Institute only became a Reich Institute on the 1st of April 1942, and only then received the name which Ding already mentioned on the 29th December 1941 in his Diary.
Q. Now, would you please turn to the entry of the 9th January 1943.
A. 9th of January 1943.
Q. It is me sixth page of the document in the German document book.
A. On that day there is an entry which states that the typhus experimental station in the concentration camp of Buchenwald is going to be renamed "********** for Typhus and Virus Research." Would you please read that entry
A. The entry reads: "By order of the Surgeon General of the Waffen SS Gruppenfuehrer and Major General of the Waffen SS, Genzken the hitherto existing spotted fever research station at the concentration camp Buchenwald becomes the "Department for spotted fever and virus research". The head, of the department will be SS Strurmbannfuehrer Dr. Ding.
During his absence, the station medical officer of the Weffen SS, Weimar, SSHauptsturmfuehrer Hoven will supervise the production of vaccines. The child of the economic and administrative main office, SS-Obergruppenfuehrer and General of the Waffen SS Pohl, orders the extension of a block of stone buildings.
"SS Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Ding is appointed at the same time as Chief department head for special missions in AMT XVI (Hygiene), of the Division (Amtsgruppe) D (Medical Affairs of the Waffen SS) of the SS Main headquarters."
Q. Would you please define your position to that document.
A. The former experimental station for typhus was now to have received the name "Department for Typhus and Virus Research". That was written on the 9th of January, 1943. The sane title, however, is already used as the title of the entire diary on the first page of that diary.
There it says:
"From 1941 to 1943. Diary for the Department of Typhus and Virus Research of the Hygiene Institute of the Vaffen-SS." Then follows the first entry of December, 1941, and I think it is quite out of the question that Dr. Ding on that day could already prophecy what would come about more than a year leter; and as far as position, in this entry of the 9th of January, 1943, Dr. Genzken is mentioned as Gruppenfuehrer and Lieutenant-General of the Waffen-SS. However, he only was promoted to that rank on the 30th of January. This entry, therefore, cannot have been made on the 9th of January, 1943, and must originate from a later date.
Q. Ding calls himself in the last paragraph of that entry the Chief Departmental Head for Special Missions in Department 16. Were there any such "Chief Departmental Heads" in Department 16?
A. Department 16 was subordinated to me, and I, naturally, know very much about its organization. There **s never any departmental head (Hauptabteilungs-Leiter) in that. There certainly was not a departmental head for special missions. This does not mean a thing to me. The sane statement is confirmed in the document book of Mr. Genzken.
DR. FLEMMING: The Tribunal will remember that when submitting the so-called "Ding Diary", I maintained that we are not concerned with a diary of the Block 46 in Buchenwald, but we are concerned with a forgery. In the meantime I submitted this so-called diary to two writting experts of the police Office in Nurnberg. They gave me their expert opinion which I wanted to submit to the Tribunel as Mrugowsky Document No. 8. It can to found on page 76 of the document book, and I offer it as Mrugowsky Exhibit no. 22, page 76. The expert opinion reads -the usual introduction, and then the third paragraph reads:
"On 5 February 1947 the undersigned were shown in the palace of Justice, Nurnberg, Document No. 275, Exhibit No. 287, which are the notes of a certain Dr. Ding.
"It was to be established whether these notes cover a long period of time and if the type script was made with one or several typewritters.
"In the course of a through examination the following was established:
1) That the paper of 27 leaves of Dr. Ding's notes correspond in color, smoothness, thickness and transparency. It can be assumed with certainty that the same sort of paper was used for all leaves of the notes.
2) The typed script of all notes was made by one machine. Besides the similarity of the size and shape of the types which show repeatedly on each page of the notes.
The following types are discussed here:
"The letter "f" has an oblateness in the head bend; the horizontal stroke on top is missing in the letter "k". The same is the case with the letter "h". The right upper part of the horizontal final stroke is missing in the letter "w". The upper horizontal stroke of the letter "m" is slightly damaged.
"These are individual damaged shapes, and owing to their constant appearance throughout the whole report it can safely be assumed that one and the same machine used for that copy.
'The machine could not hove been fitted with an SS-type because such a type was never used in the document.
The abbreviation signs in question was, to the contrary, made by the mark of "SS"."
The Tribunal will probably know the very characteristic SS-type which is not curved but has corners.
"3) Page 1 has a very fine script while the script on pages 2 and 12 shows a saturated dark coloring. We must come to the conclusion that page 1 was written with a different and older ribbon than pages 2 and 12. With regard to pages 2 and 12 it can be established that both in the reproduction of the color as well as in the degree of soiling, the typewr types correspond. Page 13 again shows a somewhat finer script which almost corresponds to the color of page 1. Contrary to that, the pages 14 to 16 show again a saturated coloring as seen on pages 2 to 12. Page 17 shows a fainter coloring than the previous pages 14 to 16. Pages 18 and 19 have an even fainter tint. Pages 20 and 21 again show a stronger tint than the previously mentioned pages which are, however, not so intentively dark as pages 2 to 12. Finally pages 22 and 26 indicate a completely worn out ribbon. The last page, 27, is very similar in color to page 17.
"It is, therefore, established that page 13 was not written at the same time as pages 2 and 12 and 14 and 16. Because of the corresponding degree of soiling of the typewriter types, it can be assumed that pages 2 and 12 and 14 and 16 were written within a short period of time. The degree of seiling of the types of page 13 varies from that of the previous and following pages.
"As it has been established that the types were written by one and same machine, and as it can not be assumed that a ribbon with a good coloring of pages 2 and 16 was changed for page 13, it must, therefore, be assumed that page 13 was written at a later date and introduced subsequent 4) Especially striking is the fact that the outer margin of the writing it vertical although there are several signatures by Dr. Ding on various pages which indicate an interruption and a re-insertion of the paper into the typewriter. A re-insertion of the paper usually results in a later displacement of the outer margin, even if only of a few millimeters.
"This conclusion proves that the entries for different times were type during a single insertion into the machine.
5) The fourteen signatures of Dr. Ding on pages 2 and 12 were made in thin light blue ink and correspond basically with regard to the execution of the signature. The appropriate rank of SS-Hauptsturm and SS-Sturmbannfuehrer have been added by a stamp. Or the other hand, the signature on page 13 is written in deep black ink, and the rank SS-Sturmbannfuehrer added in writing. On the following pages 14 to 17, the signature has be made again in light blue ink which corresponds to the color of the signatures on pages 2 to 12. On pages 18 and 27 the various signatures have been made in dark blue ink which do not show any essential differences From page 22 onwards the rank has been left out, while on page 25 the signature of Dr. Schuler was made in part without the addition of the Dr. title. The fact that on page 13 the type of signature and the use of a different ink is completely different from the regular execution of the signatures as on pages 2 and 12 and 14 and 17 also indicates that page 13 was written at a different time."
At a later date I shall submit a photcstatic copy of a list of ranks of the SS which will be supplemented to my document book No. 3. From this photcstatic copy it can be seen that Dr. Ding was a Sturmbannfuehrer on the 9th of November, 1942.
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q Would you please define your position as to that?
A In many places of the diary Ding signs his name with his former rank of Hauptsturmfuehrer although he was already a Sturmbannfuehrer. These are the entries made on the 20th and the 30th cf November, 1942, and the 4th of January, 1943, which can be found on pages 4, 5 and 6 of Document No. 265.
Considering the vanity, the well-known vanity of Ding, it can hardly be assumed that he would consider an event as a promotion which was so important for his life as of so little importance as not to include it in the signature. This fact, too, proves that these entries were made at a much later date and that an error was made as to the date when he did become a Sturmbannfuehrer.
This can not be explained in any other way.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until one-thirty.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours 27 March 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. HARDY: The Tribunal: It has been called to my attention that the fendant Hoven intends to call a witness named Dr. Horn, a Czecho Slovakian citizen, as a voluntary witness, and I haven't heard any further reports. The original intention was to call him tomorrow and I would like to know at this *********** or not they intend to call Dr. Horn tomorrow and interrup the Examination of tho defendant, Mrugowsky, so that Dr. Horn can return to Czecho Slovakia. If so, the Prosecution is perfectly agreeable to such pr** *nd I want to announce that and find out whether they intend to call him *****ow.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has not been advised of any such procedure.
MR. HARDY: Then will I be lead to understand we will not have the witness Horn tomorrow?
THE PRESIDENT: No, and if there is any occasion for calling him and it can be done without unduly interrupting the procedure, depending somewhat on how long is testimony will be, it might be allowed, but I do not remember any information being conveyed to the Tribunal, that such a program was in contemplation. There as one called tho other day for the witness Hoven out of order.
MR. HARDY: That is correct. I had notification of another one he intended of all if he intends to call another one tomorrow I would like to have the opportunity of preparing for the witness.
DR. FLEMMING: I could say that Dr. Gawlik has not progressed so far with is preparations as to know whether he can call the witness tomorrow, perhaps * will find out this afternoon, but I do not know yet whether or not he will ready tomorrow morning.
THE PRESIDENT: Will counsel for the defendant, Mrugowsky, have any objection of interrupting his case for the calling of this witness on behalf of the defendant Hoven, if it is desired to do so.
DR. FLEMMING: Since the witness will also testify regarding matters which *k place in Buchenwald I will have no objection to that.
MR. HARDY: Thank You.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued) BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q. Will you please draw the necessary deductions from what we have now discovered about Ding's diary?
A. The various erroneous entries in this document and the facts which the handwriting experts have discovered prove that this document is not a diary in which entries were made from time to time. Rather there are long periods of time that are missing, sometimes periods of more than one year before the entries were made. Pages 1 to 3, I believe, were written all at the same time, and also the subsequent pages. The document has 27 pages - were written down at only a few tines. That is testified to by the handwriting expert's statement. This explains the various discrepancies between the entries and the actual facts; for instance, of calling the Robert Koch Institute a Reich Institute, when it wasn't, etc. The testimony of a prosecution witness Balahowski corroborates this affidavit.
Q. This affidavit is in Document Book 12 as Document 484, Prosecution Exhibit 291. Balahowski said, under number 29: "The file notes that were copied into the diary shortly before the collapse give the precise number of the pages and the number of the experiments." Now please continue.
A. In these words Balahowski corroborates the fact that this diary, namely, this diary of Block 47, was drawn up shortly before the collapse, apparently on several days, consequently the difference in the typewriters used. Now, as to why he did this I can only conjecture - I do not know. That there was some reason for making the entries in this form would appear to be obvious.
Q. For the explanation why Ding wrote this diary on Block 46 let me remind you of Kogon's testimony, namely, that Ding after 1943 was sure that the war would be lost.
A. Yes, that is true. Kogon testified during his testimony often that Ding from the beginning of 1943 on made efforts to cover himself.
He also said that from that moment on the oral assignments that he received were not sufficient but that he must insist on receiving written orders. All the more remarkable is it then that in the so-called diary, this Document 265, says only very infrequently who initiated the various lines of experimentation. And, if I recall correctly, he does not once say who ordered them.
Q. Then do the contents of this diary meet the requirements that one makes of a scientist's diary?
A. The diary of a scientist has the purpose of setting down the precise course of the work undertaken. Consequently, all efforts regarding the initiation and course of experiments should be set down. That is a perfectly comprehensible custom in all institutes because subsequently the evaluation of the experiments is based on entries in the scientific institute's diary. In his Document 265, however, which is allegedly such a diary of Block 46, there is not one entry regarding the actual course of the experiments; not even the results of the experiments are set down there. That is really the least that you could ask of such a diary. Dr. Kogon, to be sure, thought that the number of fatalities which are set down with clear precision were a result, to be sure, an unhappy result, of these experiments. That these events are found lamentable can hardly be disputed but it is a false point of view if one orients oneself on the basis of this result toward something, the purpose of which was entirely different. The real experimental result can be seen in the following: As a consequence of the protective vaccination what happens during a subsequent case of infection is that the period of incubation is prolonged, namely, that period of time that lapses between0 the actual infection and the first appearance of the disease. Secondly, the period of fever is shortened, whereas usually the period of fever in typhus is 17 days. This protective vaccination reduces it to 12, 10, and even 6 days, depending on the strength of the protective vaccine. At the same time the height of the fever, or temperature, is reduced. In other words, the symptoms that are associated with fever that effect the blood circulation and the heart, as well as those that effect the central nervous system, are after the protective vaccine less pronounced or altogether absent.
There are various other small clinical indications which a doctor readily recognizes as a result of the protective vaccine and it must be said that as the result of less serious clinical manifestations the number of fatalities from typhus is smaller. That is not a direct but an indirect consequence of vaccination. Therefore, when Ding asserts in this Block Diary of Block 46 that the most important result of the experiments was the number of fatalities, then every doctor will recognize this as such an erroneous and distorted statement that even if it is on the part of a doctor so reliable as Ding it is completely unworthy of credence.
Q. I now show you Mrugowsky Document 9 which is on page 81 to page 85 of the document book and I put it in as Mrugowsky Exhibit 23. It is a photo copy of a paper by Dr. Ding on the protective action of various vaccines on human beings and the course of typhus after immunization. I do not wish to read the document but simply bring it to the attention of the Tribunal. Would you care to make any statement whether the inadequate way in which this diary was worked on? Would you like to say that perhaps Ding was not in a position to carry on such work?
A. This paper is 13 pages long. First there is the manner of the patient's tolerance for the vaccine, then the individual points that I just mentioned as the consequences of the protective vaccination are gone into. Tables are presented which give statistics in these matters. On page 85c of the document book there are eight sketches in which there are graphs showing the results and at the very bottom on the next to the last page, in the next to the last paragraph, there are three lines which say that the fatalities in the cases of those vaccinated were fewer in number than among those who were not vaccinated. That is all mentioned in the summary - there is a final summary. This is also an indication that he was perfectly capable of carrying on scientific work. I should like to point out that at the top of this paper it is mentioned that this work was done in by institute in Berlin.
I knew that as an indication that I laid no stress on keeping these matters secret in any way or that which it was my point of view that these experimental results/had been achieved on the most expensive of all material, namely, human beings, should be carried through to conclusion and that results of them should be made available to all those who were interested.
Q. The Prosecution also charges you with the fact Ding infected persons in Buehewald who had not previously received the protective vaccination. Would ou like to make a statement in that subject?
A. The following cases come into question here. On the basis of Ding's diary entries. First of all, there are the so-called "preliminary experiments". In Document 265, four **** such preparatory experiments are mentioned on unvaccinated persons. These were done in order to as certain what way was possible in order to artificially infect human beings with typhus. I always found that the lay person who had never concerned himself with these matters assumes it to be a matter of course that it is always possible to infect a human being with a disease. That, however, is by no means the case. Even in the case of such a toxic material as the typhus germ, successful infection can only occur if if is not directed directly into the blood stream. Unless another way is chosen it is usually impossible to bring about the induction with such a disease. Consequently, when such experiments are to be carried out on human beings, and this is a point of view that I express without any reference to my own person, then such preliminary experiments cannot be dispensed with. The second case are the so-called "controlled cases".
Q. Did you know anything of these preliminary experiments?
A. No, I found out about them only through the diary.
Q. Ding says in his diary under the 20th of February, 1942: "Case histories and curves on the preliminary experiments were sent to Berlin." Did you receive this report?
A. No, nor do I believe Ding sent it to me because he was not subordinate to me in these experiments and it seems, therefore, more probable to me that he sent them to Grawitz. I, at any rate, did not see them.
Q. How can this be recondiled with your letter of 5 May 1942 to Conti and others which I put in evidence this morning as Document No. 10, Exhibit Mrugowsky 20, and which is to be found on page 86 of the document book?
A. This letter corroborates what I have just testified to because the report on this series of experiments was sent to Grawitz and I received Ding's report to Grawitz from Grawitz with the order to rewrite it in a suitable form since Grawitz did not wish that outside persons could see, without any further trouble to themselves, that these were really experiments on human beings with artificial infection. He know that, to some extent, I could master the style that he used in his official communications, whereas he did not know whether Ding could or not. Consequently, he commissioned me to take Ding's original report and, for the purpose of making communications to the manufacturing firms, to cast it in a suitable form. This I did and the result is this document on page 86 of 5 May 1942.
Q. Your letterhead here is Reichsarzt and Police Chief Hygienist. In other words, this is one of the cases in which Grawitz made use of you when you still belonged to the medical staff of the Waffen SS?
A. Yes.
Q. Why didn't Grawitz rephrase the letter himself?
A. There may have been two reasons for that. First, Grawitz was not a hygienist but an interist and since the letter was being sent to specialists; namely, these who manufactured the vaccines, he wanted to be sure that everything would be in the letter which they needed to know and, on the other hand, no more than they needed to know, and secondly, this is quite in line with his customary manner of working; namely, to let his collaberators write letters that dealt with their particular sphere of work, and for this reason, he commissioned me to indite this letter.
Q. On this occasion did you not once again express objections to Grawitz regarding experiments on human beings?
A. That I did not do because this series of experiments had been concluded and because I knew that they had been carried out on Himmler's specific orders. This was the first series of experiments that had ever been carried out and it was the reason for my very violent show-down with Grawitz at that time. I assumed that this job was now completed and I had no reason to raise further objections.
Q. Were the vaccines of the Behring Works, when Dr. Ding used them in his experiments, in an experimental stage?
A. No, these vaccines had already been tested in the plant to persons' tolerance for them. All such preparations of the Behring Works, before they were sent out into the world, were worked on in their own laboratories.
Q. I submit to the Tribunal Mrugowsky Document 44, to be found on page 96 of Document Book 1, and I put it in as Mrugowsky Exhibit 24. This is an affidavit by Dr. Demnitz, the manager of the Behring Works, regarding she way in which the vaccines of the Behring Works were developed and how they were tested in the institute itself. On the fourth page, namely page 99 of the Document book, No. 5 reads:
"Naturally, the Behring Works also carried out tests to establish whether the vaccines agreed with human beings for(a) it was necessary to vaccinate these people working in the typhus laboratories in order to protect them against typhus infection; (b) it was necessary to protect those people who attended tho experimentals animals, (c) the undersigned himself was on several occasions vaccinated against typhus with vaccines of the Behring Works.
These vaccinations had to be repeated from time to time. This concerned both and Russian assistants. In our typhus department, about 20 to 25 persons were employed."
And Number 6: "The animal experiments according to Otto proved: (a) the harmlessness and (b) the effectiveness or insufficient effectiveness."
Previously, in No. 4 on Page 99, it stated "the question, Whether the animals showed a positive reaction, is incomprehensible." It stated also that animal experiments were carried out in the Behring Works. I submit this document to prove these were not vaccines which had not been previously proved, but were vaccines which had gone through the necessary preliminary and effective testing. Do you remember Kagan's testimony that volunteers were used in tic first two series of experiments? This testimony is on page 1162 of the English record and on page 1197 of the German record. If we base our assumptions on Ding's diary, what two series of experiments must these have been for which volunteers were used?
A. If we base our statements on Ding's diary we can only consider that these two series were, first of all, the preliminary series A which began on 5 January and the first series of vaccine experiments with 145 persons regarding which the letter that was previously read - Mrugowsky Document 20 - cf 5 May 1942 concerns itself. This series began on the next day; namely, on 6 January 1942. Any other experiments took place at a later date, Thus, when Kegan's say that two series cf experiments were carried out with volunteers, it can only be these two series of experiments.