In view of future development possibilities in France, this is not to be underestimated." You said that initially some gentlemen were inclined to participate to 50 percent. As far as you recall was this the idea that was in the foreground at the time?
A.Yes, at least that was one of the ideas an essential one.
Q.When you first saw this document, did you see the date?
A.I believe it was October 1940.
Q.It was 31 October 1940. As the examination by Mr. Sprecher showed, this document indicates nothing of the idea that 51 percent was wanted as an equivalent for the fact that the president of the company held a pre-eminent position. Why was this?
A.I believe that is because at this time the Vicky Law which proclaimed the pre-eminent position of the French president was not yet known.
Q.Do you recall that there were two laws?
A.Yes, sir. One, I believe, was of September and one of November 1940.
Q.Was it because you wrote this idea on the margin by hand later?
A.Yes.
Q.On cross examination you were asked whether Schnitzler kept secrets and kept strategic questions secret. You said, "No, on the contrary." Now, to supplement that I should like to ask you if Schnitzler had known Hitler's plan -- had known that aggressive war was coming, would he, in view of the nature of your collaboration, have told you?
A.He would have told not only me but he would have made it known at the meetings of the dye stuffs committee and emphasized it.
Q.One word about the Goering speech. You said that it was in all the newspapers. Do you happen to recall the fact that the speech was published in the "Times"?
A.No, I do not recall that.
Q.Regarding the final sentence of this speech which has already been quoted twice here, I have one question. You said that this sentence was generally discussed; it was not taken seriously. Is it true that Goering's bombastic manner of speaking was rieiculed and especially his favorite method of speaking of economic conditions with military figures of speech?
MR. SPRECHER:Objection. It is improper redirect.
THE PRESIDENT:It is leading and suggestive; Counsel, should leave the witness free to draw his own conclusions rather thin to suggest what the answer should be. Objection sustained.
MR. SPRECHER:Mr. President, I had a further point. Maybe I can save time. On cross I merely wanted the question of its publication because we were anxious to find out where it was published. I didn't go into it any further on that point on cross examination and therefore I think the topic is beyond the scope of redirect.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well.
Q.Do you recall any statements of Goering in a similar way?
A.No, but in all his speeches he was more than plastic and bom
Q.My final question. Did Dr. von Schnitzler in any way give you andother associates directives for the way in which the negotiations with the French were to be conducted?
A.I do not recall any positive directives. I do know, however, that Dr. Von Schnitzler said repeatedly and emphasized, speaking of the French gentleman, "After all, we have to collaborate with these people after the war, too."
Q.Now, in conclusion, I want something which I think was a mistake in translationto be corrected. Did I understand you correctly -I believe you have been ouestioned by Dr. Silcher -- Did I understand you correctly to say that according to the stock market value of the stock, did you answer four to five hundred percent?
A.Yes, that is correct.
Q.And, according to this method of calculation, this was the domestic rate in contrast to the stock market rate?
A.I was speaking only of the insurance value.
Q.What I am interested in is that you did not say 45 percent. I am speaking of the point that that was what the translation was.
A.No, I said four to five hundred percent.
DR. SIEMERS:No further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION DR. KUEPPER BY DR. SILCHER:
Q.Dr. Kuepper, in cross-examination Document NI-8450 was put to you. I unfortunately did not get the exhibit number. 1856. Exhibit 1856, Mr. President. That is a letter of the Legal Department of Berlin NW 7 of the 25th of February 1942 to the other Legal Departments ox Farben and to Dr. von Knieriem regarding the facts of war on contracts. Does this letter give the own opinion of the Legal Department NW 7 and Farben?
A.No.
Q.You said that you had not seen this letter itself but you knew of this decree of the Reichs Office for Foreign Trade. Did I understand you correctly?
A.Yes.
Q.What was the reaction of Farben to this decree of the Reich Office for Foreign Trade?
A.The opinion was that we could not act according to this decree. A very important legal book appeared during the war, published by the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Foreign and International Private Law, with the title "Effects of the War on Contracts" ("Die Einwirkung des Krieges auf Vertraege.") This book , which is a model from the scientific point of view, comes to a different conclusion. It says, for example, that if the basis of a business was changed, which is also part of the German "Ordre Publique," contracts with the enemy are to be considered invalid. We expressed this same point of view in other opinions. I recall one opinion on the connection of Farben to the Unilever Konzern. The President of the Kaiser Wilhelm Society, Professior Heimann, wrote this opinion, and it also concludes that contractual connections, in this case with England, are voided on the same legal basis as in the cartel agreements. That is the Dutch law which is decisive for the contract.
Q.Was the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute a high authority in this field?
A.I believe I can say that it was highly recognized as an international authority. It is still working today in Tuebingen.
Q.Did the statement of the Kaiser Institute indicate that a similarly opportunistic attitude as the Reich Office for Foreign Trade?
A.There was no question of opportunism. I t was very strictly scientific and legal.
Q.Did Farben in any way follow the policy of this opportunistic decree of the Reich Office for Foreign Trade?
A.No. We considered these ideas remarkable, and I at least know of no case of any action taken according to these directives.
DR. SILCHER:No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Anything further with respect to this witness from either Defense or Prosecution?
Since nothing is requested, the Tribunal will excuse the witness.
(Witness was excused.)
THE PRESIDENT:Counsel for the Defense will announce the next witness.
DR. SIEMERS:As the next witness, I should like to call Mr. Schwab on the subject of Poland.
THE PRESIDENT:Bring in the witness.
DR. SIEMERS:Mr. President, I should like to remark that I should like my associate, Dr. von Keller, to examine the witness Schwab.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well.
HERMANNSCHWAB, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT:The witness will remain standing for the purpose of being sworn, raise his right hand, please, say "I" and state his name.
WITNESS HERMANN SCHWAB:I, Hermann Schwab.
THE PRESIDENT:And now repeat after me the oath.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT:The witness may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. VON KELLER (Counsel for defendant von Schnitzler):
QWitness, for the record, will you please state your date and place of birth?
AI was born on the 8th of June 1886 at Homburg, Oberer Taunuskreis.
QPlease describe briefly your career within I.G. Farben.
AIn November 1909 I was hired by the plant at Hoechst. In February 1910 I was transferred to the agency at Vienna for the purpose of organiaation and later I was to travel. I stayed in Vienna until the middle of 1912. In July 1913 I was sent to Turin for the purpose of reorganizing the agency there. In March 1914 I came back and went to Brussels where the representative was ill until July 14.
QPerhaps you could go into a little less detail, witness.
AWorld Wax I, I was in French custody for four years and then I returned to Hoechst, in the Roman Department, with the merger with the Eastern business, and in 1929 I was specifically in charge of the Polish business. I was in Poland from 1939 to 1943 as trustee of the three Polish dyestuffs factories and from 1943 to 1945 I was in my old department in Frankfurt.
QWhen did you receive authority to sign "Handlungsbevollmaechtiger."
AIn 1921; in 1922 Prokura; in 1929 I became "Titular Director."
QCan you describe briefly what the expression, "Titular Directlr," means?
AThat means prokurist legally but not a member of the board of directors.
QPerhaps, instead of broad of directors you might use the German expression.
A "Vorstand."
QCan you give me a brief description of thePolish dyestuffs industry first regarding overall production?
AThe total production averaged about 2 thousand tons with a value of about 10 million marks.
QWhat was the relationship "between reichmarks and Polish currency?
ABefore the war one zloty was equivalent to 471-2 pfennigs. During the war the rate was set a 1 mark for 2 zlotys. That is, the zloty was equivalent to 50 pfennigs,
QWhat were the largest Polish dyestuffs factories?
AThe greatest one was Papjenicze.
QAnd the other names?
AThe second one was Boruta, considered from the point of view of the dyestuffs factories; the third one was Winnica and the fourth one, Wola. Then there were a few smaller ones.
QWhat percentage of total Polish dyestuffs production was produced by these four large factories which you have just named?
AThe four large factories had 95% of production.
QNow, will you briefly tell me the amount of production and the form of organization of these four companies, beginning with Papjenicze?
AI cannot give you any production figures but merely turn over figures. In the case of Papjenicze I do not have any exact figures at the moment but it was probably 61-2 to 7 million zlotys. Boruta in the years 1937 had 6.2 million zloty of pure dyestuffs turnover. Winnica in 1937. 4.1 million zloty; and Wola, 2.7 million zloty.
DR. von KELLER: Mr. President, I hope you don't object if the witness refers to notes when giving such figures as a number of figures will have to be mentioned during the examination which go beyond the scope of a normal memory.
THE PRESIDENT:That is entirely permissible.
QNow, please tell me in what form these four companies were organized.
APapjenicze was a stock company. Stock captial was 4 million zloty, 95% in the hands of the Company for Chemical Industry in Basle Ziba, calle Ziba. The Aufsichtsrat consisted of Swiss exclusively. one bank director from Hoechst was vice-president, Papjenicze was the only branch of the German-Swiss dyestuffs industry in Poland which went back to the Czarist period.
Boruta was also a stock company, capital 3.75 million zloty. The majority stock holder was the State Land Economical Bank in Warsaw with 80.38% of the stock. The rest was divided among many small accounts.
Winnica was a joint stock company in French and Swiss possession, legally and economically under French-German possession; capital 2 million, which with exception of 12 share, was in the hands of two big stockholders. That is the French dyestuffs factories and I.G.
Wola is a private enterprise; the proprietor, Dr. Mauricy Szpilfogel. The invested capital amounted to an average in the last few years of 1.7 million zloty.
QWitness, I want to determine for the record whether these figures that you have given were all in zloty.
AYes, all in zloty.
QI shall now read three passages from the indictment. At first from No. 77, the last sentence in No. 77. It reads:
"Farben later absorbed the Polish chemical industry."
Now, I shall now read from No. 97 of the Prosecutions:
"In Poland the three major chemical firms were" -- and then by name Boruta, Wola and Winnica are mentioned.
And the third passage which I shall read is No. 100:
"Farben integrated the entire Polish chemical industry with its own operations."
To clarify this point, please describe to me briefly the proportion, the relationship between the Polish chemical industry and the Polish dyestuffs industry. What was the order of the various types of Polish chemical industries according to size?
AIn my opinion, the first place, if one considers the number of employees and the value of production together, was the nitrogen industry, and the second place artificial silk, the third place the rubber industry, the fourth place the pharmaceutical industry and cosmetic industry, the fifth place the soap industry and only in the sixth place came the dyestuff industry.
QWhat was the share of the Polish dyestuffs industry in total Polish chemical industry from the point of view of value expressed in percentage approximately?
AAbout 3 1/2%, perhaps 4%.
DR. von KELLER: Mr. President, the subject of cartel arrangements has already been dealt with in this connection. I shall, therefore, ask the witness only the most essential questions on the subject.
Q.What contractual obligations, Mr. Schwab, existed between German dye stuffs industry and Polish dye stuff industry?
A.There were two sorts of connections. First of all, the French Tripartite cartel and the Tripartite cartel with the Polish firms. The Tripartite cartel was founded in 1929 between the French dye stuffs factories Farben, and the Swiss dye stuffs factories, having a duration of forty years. The agreement between the Tripartite cartel and the so-called Polish group, composed of Boruta and Wola, was begun in 1932 with a limited provisional agreement and, in 1934, this was changed to a nine year contract.
Q.Witness, you have just mentioned the Polish group and named Boruta and Wola. Did Papjenice and Winnica not belong to the Polish group?
A.No. Papjenice was a subsidiary of a Swiss firm and belonged to the Tripartite cartel. Also Winnica, as a subsidiary, so to speak, or at least, being founded by a French firm, belonged to the Tripartite cartel.
Q.You just spoke of the market regulation agreement of 1934 which was for nine years. How did this market regulation agreement operate? As you said, if affected Wola and Boruta.
A.Yes. Wola and Boruta and on the one hand, and the Tripartite firms on the other hand. In 1929, at which time there was a serious econom crisis in Poland, the Boruta administration had put out feelers to the French industry and to Farben, after the Tripartite cartel had taken measures which proved to be very effective for itself. The contacts at that time led to now results. In 1932, under the leadership of the Nationa Bank of Inudstry, Bank Gospjodarsjia Krasovego in Polish, which was interested, as the majority stockholder of Boruta, in stopping the Boruta's constant losses. The bank approached Farben, through middlemen, and after very long negotiations in the Spring of 1942 the first contract was conclud in which the Polish group had quotas from 21 to 22 percent. In 1934, the quota was increased.
Q.Mr. Sprecher was just kind enough to call a mistake to my attention. I believe you meant to say 1932, not 1942.
A.Yes, 1932. Thank you.
The quota were set at 20 to 22 per cent in the provisional agreement. In the final agreement, they began at 29.5 per cent and increased in the course of years to 33 1/3 per cent.
Q.Now, I should like to ask you what was the provision for Boruta and Wola on the one hand and the Tripartite on the other hand?
A.The Polish quota at the outbreak of war was 30 or 31 per cent, and the rest fell upon the Tripartite cartel as a whole. That would be about 70 per cent.
JUDGE MORRIS:Counsel, I have been trying to review in my memory the evidence regarding this Polish situation and refresh it somewhat by rereading the index in the various volumes, and I am completely at a loss to find out in my own mind where all of this testimony regarding Polish cartels has anything to do with the case that has been presented by the prosecution, either in refuting direct testimonies or as a matter of defense I wish you would enlighten me a little bit about what you have in mind and where you are going with all of this detail regarding the Polish cartel.
DR. VON KELLER:Your Honors, I have attempted - and I am more or less finished to bring out through the testimony of the witness the connections between Farben and the Polish factories in order to show that Farben had basically friendly relations with Polish industry, especially with the Polish dye stuffs industry; that Farben had no inclidnation to subjugate the Polish dye stuffs industry, but assigned increasing quotas an thus gave her increasing income. I wanted to use part of these statements for my later argumentation, from the point of view that by virtue of these close connections there could be no question of intended spoliation. I wil need part of these statements later in dealing with the subject of Winnica in which Farben had a financial interest by ownership of stock. But I believe that I have essentially completed this subject with the witness and can go over to another point.
JUDGE MORRIS:All right. I'll make no further comment then. BY DR. VON KELLER:
Q.Witness, did you yourself participate in such cartel negotiatio
A.I participated in all Tripartite meetings where Polish questions were discussed and also all meetings with the Polish group.
Q.Witness, I should now like to show you three prosecution documents. They are NI 91151, Exhibit 1135; NI 9154, Exhibit 1136; and NI 6155, Exhibit 1137. They are in Document Book 55. The English pages are 50, 52 and 53. According to the copies which I have, these are photostats of typewritten documents which the prosecution submitted on the 23rd of October. The prosecution, in its trial brief, on page 102, asserts, and I should like to read two sentences:
"While von Rundstedt and von Bock deployed the German legions on the Polish border, Farben, in anticipation of the advantages to be derived from conquest, carefully reviewed the Polish chemical industry. On the 28th of July, 1939, under the title, "The Most Important Chemical Industries in Poland", an extensive report was prepared under the charge of the defendant Ilgner which gave a detailed description of the physical structure of these concerns, their products and adaptability to German economy, and the names of their owners and directors."
What do you have to say to the three documents? Do you have the documents? Did you know about them?
MR. SPRECHER:Object.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, there's no harm in the question as to whether he has the documents and knows about them.
Objection is overruled.
MR. SPRECHER:I'm sorry, Mr. President....
THE PRESIDENT:That's purely preliminary.
MR. SPRECHER:I understood that the question was what do you have to say to these documents and that question followed upon the quotation of what the prosecution had to say in its trial brief. That is why I objected.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, the witness may ignore the statements of what the prosecution had to say about the documents in the brief, but he is entitled to testify as to what he knows about the documents that are in evidence. Is there any objection to that?
MR. SPRECHER:Well, then I object further to the form of the question as to what he knows about the documents as being very broad....
THE PRESIDENT:Well, that is broad. I recognize that. I thought, in the interests of time, that he would get around to it.
I think we will better sustain the objection, Dr. von Keller, on the ground that your question is too broad. If you can direct the attention of the witness to what you want to know about the documents, that will be better. BY DR. VON KELLER:
Mr. President, I shall make my question more precise.
Q.Did you earlier - that is, in 1939, know this report?
A.Not in this form. VOWI made many reports and, as far as they concerned my field of work, I received them all, but as it is shown here, in this size, etc., I did not see it. Perhaps I could be shown the original document.
Q.Unfortunately, we haven't anything but a photostat here, but in order not to waste time on the original--
A.I has just come to me probably that was a pamphlet of about 28 centimeters which came to me shortly before the outbreak of the war. I looked through it briefly and then I put it away. I had plenty of material in my department on these things. I had the handbook in four langauges, - the handbook of Trade and Industry in Poland which was published frequently in Warsaw, and I also had the handbook of Chemical Industry in Poland, which contained such figures. I know that very well, because the Winnica belonged to Farben.
THE PRESIDENT:Perhaps, Dr. von Keller, you had better ask another question and get the witness on the track of what you are concerned about.
Q.Witness, when you were shown this document for the first time did you connect it with preparations or plans for War?
A.No, certainly not. I considered that as merely an Industriousness on the part of Winnica.
Q.Did it bring anything that was news to you?
A.No.
Q.Are the contents of this document correct? Will you look at Exhibit 1136 carefully?
A.What page is that.
Q.You have the original there.
A.There are inaccuracies about the Verwaltungsrat. Dr. Von Schnitzler is there and Dr. Ter Meer, but at that time there were only Polish and French gentlemen on the Winnica Aufsichtsrat or Verwaltungsrat.
Q.That is sufficient. Witness, you said before in 1939 until 1943 you were trustee for the Polish Dyestuff factories; please tell me who appointed you?
A.The Reich Ministry of Economics.
Q.Since you had formerly been an employee of Farben, can you tell me what reasons impelled the men of Farben when they supplied two employees for this task of the Reich Ministry of Economics?
A.The idea was the Economica life in Poland was to be supported, COURT VI CASE VI and above all the Polish market must be supplied at Farben in collaboration with tri-partite, and the Polish corps had worked toward with great expenditure and great effort.
This should not be lost. For this purpose it was necessary to prevent outsiders and speculators from getting these factories into their hands. That would very soon most likely have lead to waste.
Q.That is sufficient, Witness. I just wanted to ask you who were your superiors in the execution of your duties as trustee?
A.First of all the Reich Ministry of Economics, and then for a short time the head of the Civilian Administration in the Army High Command VIII, Lodz, and he was then from about the middle of November 1939 replaced by Hauptteuhandstelle Ost, Berlin, the main trustee office with the Branch Office in Lodz, and after the Government General was set up, the Department for Economy, the Office in Cracow.
Q.Did these authorities supervise your activities consequently?
A.In the sense they rained orders, regulations, and in addition to that there were very strict regulations about balance sheets, statements, and business reports and the books were studied. Supervision was very close.
Q.Did the regulations governing your activity contain any provisions for punishment?
A.Yes, as trustees we were, so to speak, civil servants, and the regulations for trustees provided in the case of negligence payment of damages, and in deliberate sentences by a special court, and in the case of insubordination the death sentence.
Q.Did you obtain your salary from the state or from Farben?
A.Schoener and I did not receive any money from the state or the concerns which we administered, neither money or other benefits. We were for this time on leave from Farben.
Q.Did Farben have any right to issue instructions to you and Schoener?
A.No, we were both bound to the orders of our superiors, the Trustee Office in Berlin, Lodz, Cracow.
Q.I ask you to look at Book 56 now, which will be handed to you in a minute; will you look at Exhibit 1157, NI 7371, page 22 in the English and page 54 in the German. On the third line there you will see "Administered by Farben as Trustee." Is this statement correct?
A.No. That is a letter of an employee in Leverkusen, who probably was not informed about the exact circumstances. He knew something about Farben as Trustee, but did not know the details. Instead of saying "two men of Farben, "or Mr. Schoener and Mr. Schwab" he just wrote "Farben."
Q.That is sufficient, Witness.
DR. VON KELLER:Your Honor, I shall now deal with individual factors mentioned in the indictment, and I shall observe the same order observed by the Prosecution. I shall begin with Wola, then Voruta and finally Winnica.
Q.Witness, what did you do when on your assignment you first came to Boruta; when was that?
A.That was on the 3d of October 1939, in the afternoon.
Q.Please tell me where Boruta is?
A.Boruta is in the small town of Zgierz. I might say that it is a suburb of Lodz. Zgierz in later documents is also called by the German name Goernau.
Q.The German name for Lodz, in order to make it clear in the documents?
A.The German name for Lodz was Litzmannstadt.
Q.In what part of Poland was Boruta, after the cessation of hostilities in Poland?
A.Boruta was in the Warthegau.
Q.Can you tell me the difference between the Warthegau and the rest of Poland?
A.The Warthegau was included in the Eastern territories included into the German Reich, which had formerly belonged to the Republic of Poland. That was in the north, the Warthegau, and in the South Bielitz. The area around Bielitz formerly Polish upper Silesia.
Q.In what condition did you find Boruta when you came there the first time?
A.The factory was undamaged. In the night from the 5th to the 6th of September 1939, by order of the Polish Government, the administration had left the factory, and all cash, about 400,000 Zloty of checks, drafts and the most important records were taken away, according to orders. During this night the workers and employees present were paid advances on their salary and the cashier had about 20,000 Zloty left from the funds at his disposal.
Q.What did Boruta, produce?
A.Boruta produced primarily dye-stuffs and a number of intermediates or preliminary products connected with dye-stuffs. In this field of preliminary products it was the biggest producer in Poland. It also produced, in small quantities, accelerators for the rubber industry and there were expansion intentions by the establishment of a pharmaceutical industry. Buildings had beer constructed and some machinery was present.
Q.We need not go into detail. Were there any other products?
A.Yes. There was an explosives plant at Boruta.
Q.What was produced there?
A.It belonged to the Polish War Ministry. It produced picric acid dinitronaphtaline, and chlorpicrine.
Q.Can you give me the production quantities?
A.Picric acid, about fifteen tons per month; chlorpicrine small quantities; dinitronaphtaline, about ten tons -- I estimate.
Q.Now, which of these three products is an explosive?
A.Picric acid and dinitronaphtaline. Chlorpicrine is tear gas.
Q.Were supplies of these explosives there?
A.Yes, there were about fifteen tons of picric acid at the factory and near the factory there were four loaded railroad cars. On the afternoon of 3 October a Polish chemist brought out attention to this explosives plant that had been in operation, and Schooner immediately had it put under water.
Q.That is sufficient. Now what did you order as trustee of Boruta?
A.We first of all set up a status -- we took inventory. We inspected. We cleared up the plant. We finished the production that had been started. We started work immediately. In the factory three days and in the office for a week. About 350 people employed and this number increased to 500 at times.
Q.Did the reopening of the plant proceed without difficulties or in what field did you have difficulties?
A.The greatest difficulty was the financial difficulty. I have already said that there was twenty thousand zloty cash. That was just enough to pay wages for one week.
I had to get some money. I went first to the chief of the civilian administration who was the authority there and he said trustees are there to help themselves. I did help myself. I mobilized my friends from my Farben activity, the big firms in Lodz. I said to them, "You have to pay because if no payments are made then economic life cannot operate." And I got money immediately from these big firms, and for my part I paid all minor debtors of Boruta, whether they were Poles, Germans or Jews it made no difference. And after a few weeks I wrote to Dr. Herle in Berlin.
Q.Who was Dr. Herle?
A.Dr. Herle was head of the Trusteeship Office in Berlin, "Unless things are cleared up here we can't go on working."
Q.Now, were you able to manage with temporary financial aid that you got on the spot?
A.The cash matters functioned well. From the middle of October on the industry began to work more or less so that we had some new sales and we sold only for cash. Pabjenice, the main customer for intermediates, began to operate again and paid immediately.
Q.Did you try to get aid from any other sources?
A.Yes, from the trusteeship office. I approached them in November. I wanted to have two hundred thousand marks. I didn't know the figures so well then. Only after seven months did these men come to look at our books. In the meantime the situation became critical because when the plant started to operate the costs increased too. We had to get raw materials and we had to pay for them. Nobody would deliver on credit. I was in a rather difficult position. Dr. Deissmann came. That was a Farben employee,--a former employee that is to say, who was a soldier in the Wehrmacht and who had taken an interest in the I.G. agency in Warsaw already where he was stationed. He came to Lodz and I said to him, "Deissmann, you have to tell these gentlemen about my difficulties. Perhaps Farben can lend me something."
Q.Do you know what Mr. Deissmann did?
A.I do not know in detail. I heard that Farben, in a meeting on 20 October, had discussed the creation of a company to operate Boruta.
This holding company was to act as trustee and operate Boruta and this would, of course, solve the financial question.
Q.Was this plan of the trusteeship company realized?
A.No, it was not. That was to be done in the form of a lease. But the negotiations went on for a long time without any tangible results.
Q.Now, what did you do in the meantime?
A.We muddled through.
Q.Did the Chief of the Civilian Administration help you?
A.No, he couldn't. He wasn't there any more.
Q.Did the trusteeship office help you?
A.I have already said they thought it over for seven months before they started and the two hundred thousand marks I was to get long after I didn't need them any more.
Q.Did you see any possibility of getting bank credit?
A.No, bank credits were blocked because Boruta facilities had a mortgage of over six million zloty. This mortgage went back to the Sarzyna connection of Boruta.
Q.I don't believe we need go into that. But I should like to ask you where did you git help from?
A.Help came from Farben. That was at the beginning of June. I had enough money on hand to pay wages for one day and I sent a telegram to Frankfurt -- "Help me." I have to tell you something else. I was in Frankfurt in May and I consulted with the gentlemen as to how help could be obtained before any agreement was reached with the trusteeship office. Then we figured the way out -- that wage assignments be issued and advances paid and when I was having the worst time financially these first advances ca -- the first hundred thousand marks.
Q.Witness, you mentioned some specific dates. Can you tell me where you got these precise dates?
A.Yes. In the summer of 1945 for, I believe it was, the Special Financ Section in Frankfurt, I worked out reports on the three firms, Boruta, Wola, and Winnica, on the basis of my records in Frankfurt and I have copies of it here.