QWell, I just asked you if you had heard about it. You hadn't heard about it?
AAnd then it was not customary to discuss such contributions, even with good friends.
QDid you ever join the Party yourself?
ANo.
QDid you ever make any large monetary contributions to it yourself?
ANo, aside from winter aid.
QNo further questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Any redirect-examination of the witness? Any redirect examination?
DR. R. DIX:Yes, redirect-examination.
REDIRECT-EXAMINATION BY DR. R. DIX:
QWhen introducing one of his first questions, Mr. Sprecher said: "In your capacity of a delegate in the Augsichtsrat you were compelled to supervise the Vorstand. Is that right?"
Answer: "Yes."
And then his question: "You did not say anything to this introductory remark, Mr. Kastl."
Please defend your attitude about this assumed compulsion of supervising authority of the Vorstand, and say what you have to say about it.
ANeither according to corporation law nor according to any other regulations is the member of the Aufsichtsrat, who is delegated to the Vorstand, in a position of supervising the Vorstand. This Aufsichtsrat member carries out the efforts in the same way as other members of the Vorstand. He is not there to supervise the efforts. In the M.A.N. I have been, for more than two years, filling a gap left by a Commercial Vorstand member who once existed and who is not there and has not returned, and there is no possibility of finding a suitable substitute.
QFor the reason for his question, Mr. Sprecher, after he was asked by the President, said that he was putting this question to you to find out from you upon what you were basing your knowledge in industrial and political-economic measures after 1933, That is to say, after your removal, or after your dismissal from the Reich Association. I ask you now to answer this motive for the question - that is to say, to answer the question, "Upon what do you base your knowledge for political and economic-political events after 1933 when you left the Reich Association?"
AIf one has belonged to such an association as the Reich Association of German Industry and has been in charge of it for eight years, and then is suddenly removed one day, he does not simply close the door and withdraw into a glass cage or into a Paradise, but he is still in contact with the people with whom he has been working. Heis connected with finance and commerce, especially foreign trade with industrial enterprises. In other words, my clients included industrialists. Because of ray personal qualifications, I was elected to the Aufsichtsrat of some industrial enterprises. As managing Praesidium member of the Reich Association I was not allowed to belong to any Aufsichtsrat; so it was a matter of course that I remained in contact with the economic life of Germany and did not close my eyes and oars completely.
QOne last question: In starting one of his questions, Mr. Sprecher remarked to you: ''You, Mr. Kastl, said in your direct-examination this morning that you had been tainted a pink color politically."
I ask you what you actually did say.
MR. SPRECHER:Mr. President, -
THE PRESIDENT:Just a moment. What the witness said is a matter of record, and I think the members of the Tribunal remember it. He said, in passing, something about some groups with which he frequently had breakfast. I hardly think the subject-matter about which you're inquiring rises to the dignity of a matter that needs to be gone into further, counsel. I think I can assure you that it's not very important here, and I think our time is worth more than the question and answer that would go further into that.
DR. R. DIX:I shall withdraw my question, and I ask that the Tribunal merely look at the record, which is actually different. I have further questions to this expert Witness.
I am just informed by my colleague. Silcher, and I thank him very much, that the witness mentioned the day of Potsdam in his cross-examination.
I should like to ask him when the day of Potsdam took place -merely the date.
Q.And the significance of that day, what does it mean? The political tendency of that day?
A.The political tendency of the day was the reconciliation of all other authorities, welcome all other authorities to the new Government under Hitler.
Q.Was the Corps of diplomats present during that meeting
A.I don't know, but I assume it was.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION QUESTIONS BY DR. HOFFMANN: (for the defendant Von Der Hyde):
Mr. President, I have only one question.
Q.Mr. Dix, you spoke about the type of resistance that could be offered to the Government as it seemed possible to you. I should like to ask you whether you know anything about the fact that industry, generally speaking, at some time or other, did not quite dislike and even sometimes supported or caused their own employees or people who were in these feared organizations as SS or SD so that they might be informed or protected against attacks coming from those agencies?
A.Yes, that developed gradually, If the party had its spies in the Konzerns then the Konzerns for their own protection had to do something similar and that was done.
DR. HOFFMANN:Thank you very much. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Anything further, gentlemen? Then the witness is excused and the Marshal will escort him from the box.
Now, Gentlemen of the Defense, the Tribunal is about ready to recess unless on a survey you have made since our informal conference there is anything else you are in position to present at this time.
Then, in accordance with the understanding that was bad informally in chambers, Tribunal is about to recess until next Monday morning at nine-thirty.
The Tribunal is in recess.
(The Tribunal recessed at 1606 hours until Monday 26 January, 1948, 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of Military Tribunal VI in the matter of the United States of America against Carl Krauch, et al, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 26 January, 1948, 0930, Justice Curtis G. Shake, presiding.
THE MARSHAL:The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal IV. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunals.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT:You may report, Mr. Marshal.
THE MARSHAL:May it please your Honor, the defendants Haefliger and Schneider are absent from the Court Room.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well. They have been excused for the day.
DR.NELTE (Defense Counsel for defendant Hoerlein): Mr. President, I ask for approval for the defendant Professor Hoerlein to remain away from the sessions today beginning at 11:00 o'clock. We have some important matters in connection with our case, which begins tomorrow or the next day, to discuss and We need this time.
THE PRESIDENTVery well. The defendant Hoerlein will be excused.
The Tribunal wishes to make its position clear. we do not think that defendants generally should absent themselves from the trial, but we do sec. the very best reasons, in view of the calendar that has been set up, for requests being made for temporary absences of defendants in the preparation of their case. This request of Dr. Nelte is entirely proper and will be granted and similar requests will be made, but please do not construe that as any disposition on the part of the Court to dispense with the personal attendance of defendants unnecessarily.
Dr. Siemers, did you have something?
DR.SIEMERS (Defense Counsel for the defendant von Schnitzler): Your Honors, Dr. Dix was actually supposed to begin With the presentation of document books for Geheimrat Schmitz. I wanted to make a request that there be a slight Change made in the program, if possible; that I begin with two witnesses effecting Count I of the Indictment, Agressive begin and that, after that, Dr. Dix, who has been friendly enough to agree to this suggestion, present his documents.
I make the request because Dr. Oberhoff is urgently needed in Frankfurt tomorrow morning at a conference and because Dr. Schlotterer, the second witness, is urgently needed by an American agency outside of Nunberg.
THE PRESIDENTThe Tribunal will be very glad to grant that request and it is granted.
In that connection, let me say this, that in view of the rather close schedule that has been set up by defense coulsel with reference to the calendar - by that I mean the days upon which they will conclude the presentation of their evidence as they can best estimate it - we think there should be some little leeway in this regard; that the one who appears second on the list ought really to be prepared to go forward at the tine fixed for the one just before him on the list. I trust you understand What I mean - that you be ready a little ahead of time with respect to your books and witnesses so that if things do occur the absence or unavailability of a witness or some temporary breakdown in the distribution of books, some error in distribution that they haven't reached counsel for the prosecution in time - that we may not be delayed because of those small circumstances that, in atrial of this magnitude, may have been anticipated. we'll appreciate it if you will do that. This request this morning is a good example of what we have in mind and we appreciate the fact that counsel have arranged to go along without any dalay because of those circumstances.
DR. SIEMERS:Thank you, Mr. President.
MR. SPRECHER:Mr. President, in this case, Dr. Siemers was very thoughtful and kind enough to suggest to the prosecution some time in advance, I believe Saturday morning, that he would make this request and, of course, I was in agreement with him. There's just one point, if I may bring it up at this time, in this connection. where, for instance, on a Monday morning there is to be a change in the schedule, if the notices for the witnesses, such as the one for Schnitzler, is merely served at noon on Saturday or Saturday morning with the Secretary General, the prosecution actually receives no actual notice of that ordinarily until Monday morning, and I am, therefore, very grateful to Dr. Siemers that he gave me this information by an informal mrmorandum and I only point out, Mr. President, that sometimes I would have to object to such a procedure if we had not had informal notice.
MR. PRESIDENT:Very well, We'll anticipate that those matters can be arranged in such time that the prosecution can be advised as it is entitled to be advised.
Now, on behalf of the Tribunal, I should like to make acouple of observations. We still have 17 potential affiants to be cross examined. Among these are two in Austria - Joham and Rottenberg - and I should like also to Speak of one in the American Zone of Germany Mrugowsky. The Tribunal is of the opinion that the cross examination of those three witnesses can best be conducted where they are, without any further effort to bring them to this court room. Under the circumstances, we have this day instructed the Commissioner, Mr. Mulroy, to proceed with arrangements to conduct the cross examination of the two in Austria at Vienna, and to Mrugowsky at the prison where he is confined. We have asked him to contact the counsel for the defense who are primarily interested in that matter so as to arrange a time that Will least interfere With the conduct of the trial proper. You may expect to hear from him in that regard and proper arrangements will be made for travel orders and accommodations for a reasonable representation on behalf of the prosecution and the defense, as well as to have proper interpreters and reporters as are necessary to take those cross examinations. In view of the circumstances, we have suggested that perhaps it might be wise to have Mrugowsky cross examined before the two witnesses in Vienna. I mention that matter so that if there is any delay in Mr. Mulroy reaching counsel, that you feel free to take the matter up with him informally. He will be expecting to hear from you in that connection.
You should try to arrange that so as to inconvenience as little as possible counsel who are interested in the proceedings here in the Court Room with respect to time.
Now, counsel are all familiar with the schedule that has been tentatively set up that will prevail in the presentation of the case of the defense. It may be that some administrative problems will arise from time to time with respect to that as, for example, they have arisen here this morning, If counsel will remember to keep in mind that Judge Hebert will speak for the Tribunal with reference to that calendar and schedule, and if you have any informal problem that you wish to talk to the Tribunal about, please contact Judge Hebert and he will undertake to make whatever essential and necessary adjustments arise from time to time, and, in the same connection, if you have any problems with reference to the processing of books and documents, please bear in mind that Judge Merrell will speak for the Tribunal in regard to those problems and feel free to contact him if you have any indications of unnecessary or unusual delay in the delivery of your books.
I think that's all that I have in mind on behalf of the Tribunal.
Are there any other announcements before we proceed?
Mr. Prosecutor?
MR. SPRECHER:Mr. President, I had a rather long discussion with Dr. Boettcher during the recess concerning a number of problems where, we come to complete agreement on a number of matters which I would like to set before you, with your consent, at this time.
With respect to documents identified during the cross examination of a defendant or of defense witnesses, Your Honors were already informed by Dr. Seidl that some problems might arise which the defense might claim as surprise. Now, I asked Dr. Boettcher if it would be all right if we used a regular form which we sent along to the defense with all the proper copies in both the German and the English which would merely state that those had been identified and that here were copies and that they would soon be presented by the prosecution at a convenient time in the future, and he indicated his general agreement with that procedure. I might say that if any other defense counsel has further suggestions we would be glad to entertain them informally.
Now, pursuant to that arrangement, the following prosecution exhibits for identification have been, delivered to the defense center, in both the English and the German, in the proper quantities and receipt has been acknowledged and, at this time, I would like to offer them in evidence. These constitute all the documents which were identified during the cross examination of the defendant Krauch on last Monday morning. They are Exhibits 1840 through 1847, inclusive, I have given copies, in both the English and the German, to the Secretary of the Tribunal also and he will hand them up for the Tribunal. We intend, of course, to make no further comments about these documents.
THE PRESIDENT:The prosecution is now offering in evidence Exhibits 1840 through 1847, inclusive, which have heretofore been marked for identification only. Unless the Tribunal hears an objection now those exhibits so designated will be received in evidence on behalf of the prosecution.
Since there is no objection, the exhibits are in evidence.
Dr. Dix?
DR. RUDOLFDIX (Defense Counsel 1 or defendant Schmitz): Mr. President, as my colleague Siemers has already said, I am quite willing to wait with my presentation of documents until the two witnesses whom he mentioned have been examined. I should merely like to ask for permission very briefly to say something about the examination of my witnesses. I examined three witness and shall not call my client, sir, Schmitz, to the stand at the present time. The Court knows the reasons from all correspondence and from the reports of the doctors. This is against the wish of my client and against my own original intention, but I believe that for the reasons which I have mentioned, I cannot take the responsibility of examining my client at the present time. I should like, however, to reserve the right, in the event that the situation changes favorably, to call the defendant Schmitz to the witness stand at a later time.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well. Now, the observations of counsel might be susceptible to an improper construction. The Tribunal itself is not expressing any view with reference to whether the defendant Schmitz does or does not take the stand. The Tribunal is informed generally with respect to his physical condition and on the representation of his counsel., the Tribunal understands that his counsel does not at this time desire to call the defendant Schmitz to the stand which is agreeable to the Tribunal. I may say, Dr. Dix, that at the. proper time, the Tribunal has arranged for a medical examination of Dr. Schmitz and, if you will tell us when he is ready to depart for the hospital, we will enter the appropriate order.
DR.BERNDT(Defense Counsel for defendant Ter Meer): Mr. President, I have just heard that the defendant Schmitz will not be examined for the time being. If I now come to the examination of my client, Dr. Ter Meer, I will not be able to examine my client, Dr. Ter Meer, on whatever the defendant Schmitz may testify. Now, it may happen that the defendant Schmitz is examined later, after the examination of my client, Dr. Ter Meer. I believe that the Court will agree if I ask to reserve the right, in the event that the defendant Schmitz at a later time makes any statement that might incriminate Dr. Ter Meer or affect his interests in any way, that I can reserve the right to recall my client, Dr. Ter Meer, to the stand after the defendant Schmitz has been examined.
Does the Tribunal approve?
THE PRESIDENT:Without going into the matter of the substance of whatever you might undertake to establish by your client, we may say this, that if the defendant Schmitz testifies out of order and at a later time, he will then, of course, be subject to cross examination by counsel for the other defendants, and if his testimony develops facts which will make rebuttal on your part competent, there is no reason in the world why you should be denied that privilege. In other words, summarizing it this way, that no defendant is going to have his rights prejudiced by the circumstances that a defendant may be called to testify out of order. His rights will be recognized just the same as if the defendant had testified in the order in which you gentlemen have arranged to present your cases.
DR. BERNDT:Thank you. I have another minor matter to take up, Mr. President. You were kind enough to permit me to talk to my client, Dr. Ter Meer, yesterday and gave the same permission to my colleague, Dr. Flaechsner, in regard to his client, Dr. Buetefisch. Unfortunately, this was not possible. We were allowed into the Prison but the prisoners were act let out. Therefore, I should like to request that my client, Dr. Ter Meer, be excuse' today at 11:00 o'clock so that I may discuss the things with him today that I intended to discuss yesterday. Then I will be able to complete my books and hand them in.
THE PRESIDENT:That request is granted.
DR. BERNDT:Thank you.
DR.HOFMANN: (Defense Counsel for defendants Ambros and von der Heyde): Mr. President, I must unfortunately add my request to that of my colleague, Dr. Berndt, by asking that my clients may be recalled to the stand if ether defendants come to the stand later arid say anything effecting my clients'.
THE PRESIDENT:That applies generally to all defendants and it will not be necessary to make special requests.
That will be the policy of the Tribunal, as it applies to each defendant on trial.
Now, if there are no other preliminary matters, the Tribunal is now ready to hear the evidence of the defense.
DR.SIEMERS (Defense Counsel for defendant von Schnitzler) : Your Honors, in the case for Dr. von Schnitzler I should like first to deal with Count I, Aggressive War. The prosecution tries to prove that the defendants knew of Hitler's aggressive plans and planned and prepared wars of aggression. It is a question of documentation whether the prosecution has proved this in the sense of the Judgment of the IMT. This is not the point at which I shall discuss this question, but the prosecution has offered a large number of points of evidence and I should like to deal with a few of these. First of all, the point that Farben used its commercial contacts abroad for economic espionage, I should like to examine the witness, Dr. Oberhoff, and ask the Tribunal to have the witness Dr. oberhoff called into the Court Room.
THE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will bring in the Witness oberhoff.
DR. JULIUS OBERHOFF, A WITNESS, TOOK THE STAND AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Witness, you will remain standing for the purpose of being sworn, raise your right hand, say "I" and state your name.
THE WITNESS :I, Dr. Julius Oberhoff.....
THE PRESIDENT:Now, will you please repeat after me the oath.
Swear by God, the Almighty and the Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
You may be seated.
May I inquire, Mr. Witness, if the use of the two signal lights before you have been explained to you?
THE WITNESS :Yes.
THE PRESIDENT:Then, please remember to speak slowly and distinctly so chat your testimony may be translated for the Tribunal and make your answers as brief and direct as possible.
Do not feel free or called upon to make extended remarks or to anticipate matters about which counsel may be inquiring. Counsel has a wide latitude to ask additional questions, and if he believes your answer to be inadequate, he will ask you another question. If you will bear these matters in mind, it will facilitate your testimony.
The witness is with counsel for the defendant.
Q.- Dr. Oberhoff, first of all will you tell us the date of your birth?
A.- 12 August 1898 Q.- Please tell us briefly about your career, especially how you came to I.G. Farben and what your position was there.
A.- I am an Austrian citizen, a lawyer, and a businessman. In 1920 I went from Vienna to Germany to work for Farben, then the Friedrich Bayer and Company, one of the founding companies of Farben. This was my first commercial position, I was trained for several years in the dye stuffs field, commercially and in the technical field. In 1923, I was sent as a representative to Poland. In 1924, I came to Berlin to I.G. Rusco, the sales organization which had been founded by the various firms, that later became I.G. Farben, to take care of the Russian business. There I became Handelsbevellmaechtigther (Commercial Plenipotentiary) and Prokurist. When business in Russia fell off at the and of the twenties, I was transferred to the central office at my own request, first to Hoechst and from 1930 on I was in Frankfurt. There, aside from the Soviet Russian business, I was in charge of Poland and the Baltic countries. Then in 1931, I became Commercial Plenipotentiary and in 1932 Prokurist. In 1934 the Latin American department Was opened. The Vorstand appointed me to that position and I was in charge of this department until the end. In 1937 I became director. From January 1943 on, in addition to my other work, I took over Spain and Portugal, because my predecessor there had been drafted into the Wehrmacht.
Q.- The Prosecution has charged I.G. Farben with carrying on economic espionage through its representatives abroad, and says that this is shown especially by the fact that the foreign representatives or the I.G. Farben liaison men belonged to the Party or had to belong to the Party, and held Party Offices. Moreover, I.G. Farben, with the rid of its organizations, sent agents of the OKW, or the foreign organization of the Party under Camouflage, abroad, and they took special jobs for these organizations.
I should like to deal with these several points separately. First of all, tell us who your immediate superiors were.
A.- In Latin America that was Kommerzienrat Waibel. In Spain and Portugal I was directly under Dr. von Schnitzler.
Q.- Was Waibel also under Dr. von Schnitzler?
A.- Dr. von Schnitzler was a member of the Central Committee and in that capacity he was Dommerzienrat Waibel's superior.
Q.- You said that the sales organization in South America was entrusted to you from 1934 on. From what point of view were the representatives for South America chosen?
A.- I believe, counsel, before I can anser this question I must clarify one point. In 1934 when I took over the Latin America department, the Farben agencies had been in existence for a very long time -- in some cases for many decades. During my work there, there was no question of selecting agents, and the heads of these agencies had been in office for some time too. During my time there was only one change in the management of an agency. That was in Argentina. Mr. Brueckmann had lost his hearing and had to resign. His successors were chosen among gentlemen who had been working in Latin America for some time. Therefore there was no selection of new people after 1934 except for the young recruits. This question, however, was very critical. There was great need of young men, I recall that there was such a scarcity at the time that the young men, both commercial and technical men, could not be supplied by Farben. I was forced to resort to advertisements in the newspapers. Quite a number of young men were sent out in this way, after they had received a year or two of training in the customary way.
Q.- If I understood you correctly, no new managers of agencies were sent out, but only other personnel under these managers, Now, in the selection of these young men, was any consideration given to political relia bility in the sense of National Socialism, or to what extent were these questions considered?
A.- They were not considered at all. I interviewed the people and tested them from technical points of view. I considered their appearance, their knowledge of languages. I was not interested in Party membership. To the present day I do not know of a large number of them, whether they were in the Party or not.
Q.- As the first document I should like to show you the minutes of a meeting of the Commercial Committee of 20 August 1937. This is Book 48 of the Prosecution, Exhibit 362, NI-4927, page 82 in the English Book, page 122 in the German. Dr. Von Schnitzler was Presiding over this meeting. Under number 2B, on page 84 of the English book, page 124 of the German book, the following statement is made: "There was general agreement that, owing to the ever increasing tendency towards industrialisation in the world, it was imperative for the I.G. foreign organizations to have in all the larger towns abroad such persons as Verbindungsmaenner who, by virtue of the positions they held and their knowledge of prevailing conditions could judge correctly the developments of their own country and give advice to the management at home accordingly. For that reason the Commercial Committee thinks it advisable that the former institution of the Zefi-confidential agents ("Zefi-Vertrauensmaenner"), who were already very active in this direction, be given increased consideration in their extended capacity as "I.G. Verbindungsmaenner". Can you please tell us, first of all, what this institution of Verbindungsmaenner, liaison men, was, and why they were considered necessary? Please tell us about the developments of how the sales organizations were created and answer my question in that connection.
A.- One must realize that the agencies developed historically partly as in the dye stuffs department or the pharmaceutical field, they had existed for decades, since those two fields were among the oldest in I.G.
Farben. These agencies were, however, so to speak, decentralized, in that each one was interested only in its specific field -- that is, dye stuffs or pharmaceutical products. When in the course of decades, the sphere of the various I.G. Farben agencies at home became greater, the new spheres, in part, joined in the existing agencies. For example, the photographic field sometimes was attached to the pharmaceutical agency, and sometimes to the dye stuffs agency. Other newly created fields had no representatives at all, only a local man. Now, when the time came, I think it was about 1931, when currency difficulties came up throughout the world, more and more questions arose which did not affect only one sphere of interest, but all interests. To give an example, money transfers. It could happen that one agency had a large frozen assets whereas another agency needed money, and similar difficulties. Because of these difficulties, I believe, the institutions of the Zefi liaison men, were set up. The men were selected for the individual country to take charge of these questions of currency, money transfers, rate of exchange, and so forth. In the course of time another important problem arose. That was the increasing industrialization of the Latin American countries which affected duties and imports. Up to now I have been reporting as I learned of the events later, but from now on I shall tell what I experienced myself. In connection with the trip of Dr. Ilgner, the idea came up that the institution of the Zefi confidential agents, be expanded into the institution of I.G. Farben liaison men, Verbindungsmaenner, I just mentioned. They were to take care of all problems affecting Farben as a whole, for which there had not been any proper consideration in the individual departments up to that time. Men were chosen from the existing agencies in the various countries; men who were suited because of their personality, their experience in the country, and their qualifications. That is in general the history of this institution.
Q.- Dr. Oberhoff, you said that a complication developed because everyone was interested only in his own sphere of owrk and here a certain degree of centralization was necessary. Was the purpose of the Farben liaison men that a certain cooperation between the agencies in the various countries, that is divided according to countries, and not according to spheres of work, was to be established?
A.- If I understand you correctly you mean between the various countries of Latin America.
Q.- Yes.
A.- This idea may have been considered but as far as I recall it played a relatively minor role. The main consideration was to have greater cooperation of the various agencies in a specific country.
Q.- In the creation of this institution of liaison men, did any State or Party office or the Wehrmacht or the German Reich have any part, or did they influence the decision of Farben in any way?
A.- No.
Q.- The basis idea originated exclusively with Farben?
A.- Yes, as far as I know, exclusively with Farben.
Q.- Dr. Oberhoff, the Prosecution does not agree with you. They rely upon the records of the Commercial Committee of 10 September 1937 and 11 March 1938. I shall show you these documents. One is in Book 45, the other in Book 48m which you already have. First of all, the first meeting of 10 September 1937, Book 45, page 5 in the English document book, page 7 in the German. This is Exhibit 363, NI-4959. The meeting of the Commercial Committee was again presided over by Dr. von Schnitzler. Various members of the Vorstand and other gentlemen were present. We are interested in numbers 9 and 10 of the document. Number 9, page 9 in the English book is headed, "Meetings of the I.G. abroad." It is suggested that the I.G. Verbindungsmaenner invite the other managers of the Sales Companies selling I.G. products in their area to attend periodical informal dis cussions on general economic problems.
This agress with what you have just told us, witness. I merely want to ask you, at this time National Socialism was already at its height and therefore I should like to make it quite clear -- was this suggestion of the Vorstand made by instigation of any State office or for what reason was this suggestion made by the Commercial Committee?
A.- I never heard that this suggestion originated from outside and that Seems highly improbable to me, because this suggestion results logically from what I have just explained. If certain problems of mutual interest were to be handled by the I.G. Verbindungsmaenner, it could be done by having a periodic contact between the managers of the various agencies.
Q.- The Prosecution relies especially on number 10 of this document which is headed "Staffing of our agencies abroad and collaboration with the A.O. (Organization of Germans abroad)." It is stated there that it is agreed that under no circumstances should anybody be assigned to the agencies abroad who is not a member of the German Labor Front and whose positive attitude to the new era has not been established beyond any doubt. It is also said that these men are to contact the local or regional groups and are expected to attend regularly at their meetings as Well as at those of the A.O. This agreement with the A.O. seems rather surprising. Would you please explain how these negotiations with the A.O. and this agreement cama about?
A.- The background is as follows. There had been friction with the A.O. which increased in the course of time. The A.O. had, on several occasions, attacked the managers of various agencies abroad who had opposed the so-called Gleichschaltung. We had great interest in helping these people who were very important to Farben and to help them to continue their work uninterruptedly. Both Mr. von Schnitzler and Mr. "Waibel repeatedly endeavored to do away with this friction with the A.O. and to clear the atmosphere.
One must remember how things were under the dictatorship. There were two choices. Either one could resist openly -- one could make this decision personally for one's self.
It was different if one had a cause to represent as all of us had the interests of I.G. Farben. If one did not want to endanger this cause it was necessary to be clever. I was not present at this meeting of the Commercial Committee because I was not a member. But I was informed of this decision immediately after the meeting and I realized from the very beginning what this decision meant as a protection, especially for Mr. Waibel who was in charge of negotiations with the A.O. In my opinion this can also be seen from the wording of the decision. If one looks at the Whole tenor one Would expect the demand that all new people sent cut be old fighters or at least Party members. Instead of that it says that they should be members of the German Labor Front. That, of course., was a matter of course and tautology, for as I recall, all members of I.G, Farben, like all employees of all big German firms, had been in the Labor Front since 1935. In Farben that was done by a collective action. I was not asked but one day was informed that we were all members of the Labor Front. This happened years before this decision in this document. I myself was not impaired in any way in my selection of people by this decision but continued to proceed from technical considerations.
Q.- Did I understand you correctly that the negotiations were performed by Kommerzienrat Waibel -- the negotiations with the A.O.?
A.- Yes.