A.Yes, soldiers.
Q.Now, were you told where you were being taken?
A.We were just told that we were being taken to Germany to work.
Q.Were you told how long you would be on the train?
A.No, we were not told about that.
Q.How many days did you spend on this train?
A.Seven days.
Q.Now, in addition to this food that you brought with you, were you given any food on the train?
A.Two or three days we didn't get anything at all.
Q.Did you have any of your own food left at the end of that time?
A.Yes, there was some left.
Q.Did most of the other people on the train bring food with them?
A.Yes, each one of them.
Q.Now, you say after two or three days you were given some food. What kind of food were you given?
A.We got some soup and unwashed potatoes.
Q.Did these wagons that you were riding in have doors on them?
A.We had some doors but they were closed.
Q.They were closed while the train was moving?
A.Yes, the door was closed.
Q.Now, where did this train finally arrive?
A.September 29th we arrived in Pirmasens.
Q.What kind of a place was this?
A.It was a distribution point, and they had some ill persons, that is, ill workers.
Q.Were the workers who were there Russian workers?
A.Yes, all of them were Russian.
Q.Were there all women or were there some men, too?
A.It was all mixed. There were women, men, children.
Q.Now, how long were you at this camp at Pirmasens?
A.Two or three days.
Q.And where were you sent from there?
A.From Pirmasens we were sent to Saarbruecken.
Q.Did you go by train to Saarbruecken?
A.Yes, by train.
Q.Was it the same kind of a train?
A.Yes, the same, dirty.
Q.Cattle wagon?
A.Yes, cattle wagons.
Q.Were there guards on this train, too?
A.Yes, soldiers.
Q.Do you know what an SS uniform looks like?
A.I can't say exactly.
Q.But these guards who were on the train had uniforms like soldiers?
A.Yes, uniforms like soldiers.
Q.Now--
THE PRESIDENT:Where is Terboli, Mr. Ervin? Where is this place called Terboli?
MR. ERVIN:Oh, Your Honor, this is called Pirmasens - the camp. It is the same camp as to which the other witness testified.
THE PRESIDENT:I understand that, but where is it? In what country?
MR. ERVIN:It is in Germany very close to the border.
THE PRESIDENT:Very close to the French border?
MR. ERVIN:Yes.
THE PRESIDENT:Has the piece any other name?
MR. ERVIN:It is a town by that name. Your Honor. I can point it out to you on a large map after the session. Perhaps defense counsel could place it a little more closely.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, is it near Metz?
MR. ERVIN:I think it is about a two and a half hour ride from Metz.
THE PRESIDENT:That is close enough. BY MR. ERVIN:
Q.What did you do at Saarbruecken?
A.As soon as we arrived the next day in the morning we were taken to the factory and shown what work we had to do.
Q.What kind of a factory was this?
A.It was a big factory. It was an armament factory. They were making bombs and all kind of things.
Q.What kind of a job did you have at this factory?
A.We had heavy work to perform. We had to load wagons with iron.
Q.How long were you at this factory in Saarbruecken?
A.About nine and a half months or ten months.
Q.And then were you sent to another factory from there?
A.Yes.
Q.And do you remember about what date that was?
A.The exact date of departure I don't remember, but I know that I arrived in Rombach about the 17th.
Q.The 17th of what month?
A.June.
Q.And that would be in 1943?
A.Yes.
Q.Now, how did you got from Saarbruecken to Rombach? Did you go by train?
A.Yes, by train.
Q.Were there guards with the train?
A.Yes.
Q.Did any other Russian workers go with you on this train?
A. many of them.
Q.How many were there in the wagon which you were in?
A.It was a full carload, about thirty-five, thirty-eight.
Q.Were they all women, the workers who were in the car with you?
A.They were only women and girls in my wagon.
Q.And you were taken to Rombach, is that right?
A.Only thirty-five of us got off in Rombach. The others were taken to other camps.
Q.Now, what kind of a factory was it at Rombach?
A.There was some iron work. They were making some bombs.
Q.What kind of work were you given to do at Rombach?
A.I had to mend roofs, to put tar on they roofs.
Q.Were there both men and women working on this job?
A.Yes, men and women.
Q.Were there any local German women or local Lorraine women working with you?
A.They didn't work with me on my job, but in the factory they were working.
Q.And did you have some kind of a foreman or a master for this job on the roof?
A.We didn't have any foreman, but we had policemen in the factory.
Q.Factory police?
A.Factory police, plenty of them.
Q.Who told you what kind of work to do as you were on the job, that is, which part of the roof you were to work on?
A.The German was telling us what to do, and we had to go up on the roof.
Q.This was a German civilian?
A.I don't know who he was.
Q.He would tell you which part of the roof to work on?
A.Yes.
Q.Now, during all the time that you were at Rombach, did you have any other jobs?
A.No, always the same job.
Q.Where did you live while you were at Rombach?
A.In the camp.
Q.Where was this camp?
A.Close to the woods.
Q.About how far was it from the closest part of the factory?
A.It wasn't too far away. It was about one kilometer, a kilometer, and a half.
Q.Now, in this camp what kind of buildings did they have?
A.Wooden barracks in a barbed wire enclosure, and this enclosure was twice, double or three times.
Q.A double fence around it?
A.Double fence, yes.
Q.The barracks you lived in, was there more than one room in the barracks?
A.Four rooms in one barrack.
Q.The one you lived in there were four rooms?
A.Yes, four rooms.
Q.How many other people lived in the room that you were in?
A.Twenty-six.
Q.What kind of beds did you have in there?
A.There were wooden bunks in tiers.
Q.Were there guards at this camp?
A.Yes, plenty.
Q.Did they wear uniforms?
A.In police uniforms or the civilian?
Q.What kind of uniforms were these?
A.A dark uniform.
Q.Now, were you allowed to leave this camp if you weren't working at that particular time?
A.We could leave the camp in groups of five or ten under supervision of a policeman.
Q.You weren't able to leave the camp other than in groups with a policeman, you couldn't go by yourself?
A.No, never.
Q.How many hours a day did you work on this job on the roof?
A.Three days twelve Hours, and the other three days eight hours.
Q.Did you work on Sunday?
A.Three Sundays on and one off.
Q.What did you do on your free Sunday?
A.If there was any hot water we would wash your laundry, we would talk, and we would feel sorry for ourselves, for our situation.
Q.Did you ever leave camp on a Sunday in one of these groups or parties?
A.No.
Q.That is, you never got permission to go out with other workers?
A.I didn't want to go under a police escort.
Q.You said you sometimes did you laundry on sunday. Where did you wash your clothes?
A.There was a special barrack where there was some warm water.
Q.This barrack was in the camp?
A.Yes.
Q.Was there a washroom in your barrack where you could wash your clothes?
A.This all was in one barrack.
Q.Were there showers in this barracks?
A.Yes, there were.
Q.How many?
A.Abour four or six?
Q.How many places were there to wash and shower?
A.I can't say exactly because there was always a big crowd there. There would have been place for ten, but there were about thirty of us.
Q.Ten places to wash, but there were usually about thirty there, is that what you said?
A.It was all filled up, as many as could get in.
Q.Was this washroom just for the women?
A.It changed. One day it was for the women; the next day for the men.
Q.Did you know of any other washrooms inside the camp enclosure where you were living?
A.That is the one I saw. I haven't seen any other one.
Q.Do you know whether there were any other ones?
A.I don't know. Everybody went into the one.
Q.There was hot water in this place from time to time?
A.Very little.
Q.Let's come back to the barracks where you were living. Was there any heat in the barracks?
A.No, we had a stove, but no heated.
Q.There were stoves in the barracks, but there wasn't any coal for them?
A.They didn't issue us any coal, and if a girl would steal any coal and make a fire, policemen would see the smoke and put out the fire.
Q.Did you get paid for your work while you were at Rombach?
A.Yes, they paid, but what they paid.
Q.How much did you get?
A.On the paper 100 marks was written, or over 100 marks, but we would get 25 marks.
Q.You would get 25 marks in cash?
A.Yes.
Q.Were you told what was being done with the rest of the money?
A.When we asked why we were getting so little, we were told this would have to pay for our food, our electricity and our barracks.
Q.Were you told any of it was being put into a savings account for you?
A.No. No. They just told us that this money covered our living and our quarters.
Q.Did you get any mail from home while you were at Rombach?
A.Nothing. No letters, no packages, nothing.
Q.Did you write any letters?
A.I sent many letters homes.
Q.Where did you mail these letters?
A.There was a mail box at the plice station. We Throw our letters into this mail box.
Q.Where was this police station?
A.In the same camp.
Q.What time did you yet up in the morning to go to work?
A.Reveille was about 3:30 or 4 o'clock in the morning
Q.What did you have for breakfast?
A.Warm water with some Ersatz coffee.
Q.What time did you get to work?
A.We went to the factory at 5:30.
Q.At 5:40?
A. 5:30.
Q.When did you cat next during the day?
A.We had to go the camp inorder to home our dinner.
Q.What time was that?
A.At noon, at 12 o'clock.
Q.What did you usually have at your noonday meal?
A.It was a mixture you would give to pigs. It was turnips, and cabbage and some leaves.
Q.Was it a soup?
A.Yes. There was a soup.
Q.Did you get any bread?
A.We received bread only once a day.
Q.Was that usually in the evening?
A.Mostly about five or six o'clock in the afternoon.
Q.How much bread did you get?
A.They considered my work as easy work. I was getting a loaf of bread for five.
Q.For five people?
A.Yes, for five.
Q.Did some of the other workers get were bread than that?
A.It was supposed to be distributed according to the work you did. But I did not see it myself.
Q.That is, for your type of work, you would get one loaf of bread for five people?
A.Yes, four or five.
Q.Can you show us with your hands about how big this loaf of bread was?
A.It was about that big (indicating) and if you out it in five parts, it was not too much. And what kind of bread it was.
Q.Did you also get any kind of butter or margarine with this bread?
A.A small amount, about ten or 15 grams.
Q.You received this when the bread was issued to you?
A.Yes
Q.What would you eat for the evening meal?
A.In the evening we received the same soup with turnips cut into pieves and some cabbage and some leaves. It was all mixed together. Once it was salted and once it was not.
Q.Were there ever any potatoes in the soup?
A.You could not see them. Once or twice I saw some potatoes in it.
Q.Did you ever get anything, besides this soup?
A.Just soup. Twice we got some potatoes which were messed up. The skin was on them.
Q.That was outside of the soup?
A.It was outside the soup.
Q.Did you get enough to eat?
A.It was not enough, and it was not eatable.
Q.Were you hungry?
A.Always hungry.
Q.While you were working at the Rombach Plant, were you ever punished?
A.Yes.
Q.Why were you punished?
A.I was walking back from work. I did not know the exact time our work was finished. I wanted to get some soup because sometimes when we got back there was no soup left. A policeman caught me.
Q.What time of day was this?
A.Between ten minutes to five in the afternoon.
Q.How long were you supposed to work that day?
A.Until five o'clock.
Q.Where did this policeman catch you?
A.At the exit of the factory.
Q.What did he do with you?
A.He asked me where I was going. I said, I am going by the camp. He asked me until what time I was supposed to work. I told him from eight until four o'clock. He asked me in what particular section I was working. I told him I was working in the Batiment.
Q.In what section?
A.Batiment. In German it is Bau-stelle. That is in French, Batiment.
Q.What did the police man do then?
A.He went to the police station with me and checked the records. He found my name and I was put in solitary confinement.
Q.Where was this police station?
A.In the camp.
Q.What was this cell like into which you were put?
A.It was the same building where the police station was, they had a special cell, a coal cell.
Q.How big was the room?
A.It was very small, about two meters.
Q.Did it have any windows?
A.Just a small window near the ceiling.
Q.Was there at any furniture in this room?
A.No. I did not have anything in this room?
Q.How long were you kept there?
A.There was just a bucket inside, that is all.
Q.How long were you in this room?
A.From five o'clock in the afternoon until the next morning at four o'clock.
Q.This, until the next morning at reveille?
A.Until the next morning at reveille.
Q.Did they give you your supper the night before in the cells?
A.They just brought in a plate of soup.
Q.You were alone in the cess?
A.All alone.
Q.Was that the only time you were ever in this cell at Rombach?
A.Yes.
Q.Were you ever slapped or beaten while you were working at Rombach?
A.No. I was not.
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Ervin, it is now a quarter past twelve. The Court will recess for an hour and 20 minutes, until 25 minutes before two.
(A recess was taken until 1:35.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal reconvened at 1330 hours, 2 May 1947)
THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal No. 4 is again in session. BY MR. ERVIN:
Q.Now, witness, while you were working at Rombach did you ever see any of the workers beaten?
A.Yes.
Q.Let's talk first about in the camp. Did you ever see any of them beaten in the camp?
A.Yes.
Q.Where did these beating take place?
A.At the Police Station.
Q.At the Police Station. That was in the camp?
A.Yes, in the camp.
Q.Well, were in the Police Station when these beatings took place?
A.They were inside. We just looked through the window.
Q.And who was performing these beatings? Who were doing these beatings?
A.The Policemen.
Q.That is the camp Police?
A.Yes, the Camp Police.
Q.Were they using their hands or did they have a stick of some kind?
A.I saw how a girl was slapped.
Q.You saw them slap a woman in the face?
A.Yes, I saw a few slapped.
Q.Were you allowed to stand at the windows and to witness these beatings?
A.We were chased out by the policeman. We were not allowed.
Q.Did this happen after work?
A.After work.
Q.Now, did you ever see anyone slapped in the factory?
A.In the factory I haven't seen it.
Q.Now, do you know personally of any of the Russian workers dying while you were working there at Rombach?
A.Yes.
Q.The women workers or men workers?
A.I know of one boy who died and I know of a girl committing suicide. Other people died but I haven't seen them.
Q.Well, now, let's talk about this boy. Do you know his name?
A.No, I don't know it.
Q.How old was he?
A.He was young. About 17 or 18 years.
Q.Was he a Russian boy?
A.Yes.
Q.Did you see him die? Were you there when he died?
A.He died in the hospital. I wasn't there.
Q.Did you see him before he died?
A.Yes.
Q.Did he talk about that?
A.I saw him when he was punished.
Q.Where was this?
A.At the exit of the camp where we left the camp -- we were leaving the camp.
Q.You were leaving the camp to go to work?
A.Going to work and coming back from work.
Q.Where was he?
A.Right at the entrance.
Q.At the gate to the camp?
A.He stood at the gate near a wall.
Q.What did he look like?
A.He was beaten up and he was of middle height.
Q.Well, did you see him being beaten?
A.I didn't see when he was beaten but I saw blood on his face.
Q.It looked like somebody had been hitting him in the face?
A.We all saw him. He was beaten - up.
Q.Was there a policeman standing by?
A.The policeman at the gate watched over him.
Q.Was he there when you went to work in the morning?
A.This boy stood all day long.
Q.Was he there when you came back?
A.Yes.
Q.When you came back for your noon-day meal?
A.Yes, all day long.
Q.And when you came back for your evening meal?
A.Yes, he stood there too.
QDid anybody tell you anything about it?
AOther girls witnessed that and told me about his beating.
QDid anybody at all tell you why that boy was beaten?
AHe didn't have any shoes so he didn't go to work, and his supervisor phoned up about that.
QWho told you this?
QThe girls who were living with me in the same room.
QNow, you said a little while age that this boy was taken to the hospital?
AYes.
QHow did you know about that?
AThis hospital was right in the camp, and some girl saw this boy in that hospital.
QThen you heard after that that this boy died, is that right?
AHe stayed two or three days in the hospital, and he died afterwards. He was beaten up badly.
QYou were not in the hospital while he was there, were you?
ANo, we were not allowed to go in.
QNow you mentioned a little while ago something about a girl who committed suicide. Do you know her name?
AI know just her first name but not the last name.
QWhat was her first name?
AAnn. She was from the Pontcak district.
QDid she live in the same baracks with you?
ANo.
QDo you know the girls who lived with her?
AYes, a little.
QDo you know the circumstances surrounding this suicide?
AYes, I know.
QCould you tell us about them?
AShe was working as an interpreter for the Russian girls. She bought herself a pair of shoes.
QWhere did she buy these shoes?
AFrom a worker in the factory. He was either a Pole of French , I don't remember. She was searched at the entrance and these shoes were found.
QWas this at the entrance of the camp?
AYes, the entrance into the camp, right after work.
QWere you in the same group with her that day coming back from work?
AYes, I am in the same group.
QWhat did they do when they found the shoos? a She was taken to the police station right away. Later she was taken to the manager of the factory, and then she was taken to the senior police chief, Degan.
QWhat was his name?
ADegan.
QWas she allowed to come back to sleep in the barracks that night?
AYes.
QDid you see her?
AI haven't seen her myself, but the girls living with her in the same room, they told me about it.
QWhat were the police trying to find out from her?
AThe police wanted to find out from her the person who sold her the shoes.
QShe didn't tell them?
AShe didn't want to tell, so the German minister said that she was going to be sent into a concentration camp, and they told her that she was going to be beaten, but she was not beaten yet.
QWhat happened after that?
AShe thought it over, and she was still young, and she decided to throw herself in front of a train.
QWell,did she throw herself in front of a train?
AYes.
QDid you see that?
AOther girls saw that. I've seen only her legs laying there on the table.
QWhere were you when you first heard about this incident of her throwing herself under the train?
AIn the camp.
QWhat time of the day was it?
AThis was in the afternoon.
QYou were not at work?
AThat day I worked only till two o'clock.
QAnd how did you find out about this, was there a noise or commotion or something?
AThere was a commotion, and the girls told me that Ann committed suicide.
QWhat did you do then?
AWe ran to the police station in order to see her remains, but we were not allowed to come close, and we have seen through the window just a mass covered with cotton. This blood on the railroad remained for about three days.
QWitness, while you were working at Rombach did any of the Russian women in the camp have babies?
AYes, they had.
QDid the women work while they were pregnant?
AThey worked until the last moment. One girl gave birth to a child in the factory.
QDo you know the name of this girl?
AYes.
QWhat is her name?
AMary.
QDo you know her last name?
ANo, I don't know.
QYou say she gave birth to a child in the factory?
AShe gave birth to two children in the factory.
QThat is twins?
AYes, twins.
QWas this during the day or during the night?
AShe was working on the night shift.
QWere you working on that shift?
ANo.
QHow did you find out about it?
AThe girls who lived in my room were working together with this particular girl.
QAt the time these twins were born?
AYes.
QNow, were you in Rombach when the American soldiers came?
AYes.
QAnd where are you living now?
AAmneville.
QAre you working?
AYes.
QAre you still working in the same plant?
AYes, the in the same factory.
QWhat are you doing now?
AI clean up the office, and I prepare coffee for the workers, and I am working in the supply room.
QAre you free to go back to your home in the Ukraine if you want to?