Official transcript of the International Military Tribunal in the Matter of The United States of America, the French Republic, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics against Hermann Wilhe,m Goering et al, Defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany on 11 March, 1400-1700 hours, Lord Justice Lawrence presiding.
BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:
QI want to ask you some questions referring to your duties and activities on the Central Planning Board. You were a member of the Central Planning Board, were you not?
AYes.
QAnd what was the period of your membership?
AFrom the beginning--I believe that was in the year 1941 or 1942-until the end.
QMembers of that Board, in addition to yourself, were the defendant Speer?
AYes.
QFunk?
AYes, but only later.
QWhen did he come on?
AAt the moment when a large part of the civil production was turned over to the ministry of Speer.
QAnd Koerner? Koerner was a member of the Board?
AKoerner? Yes.
QWho was Dr. Sauer?
ASauer was an official in the ministry of Speer, but he did not belong to the Central Planning Board.
QBut he did keep some of the minutes, did he not?
ANo, in my opinion, he did not keep them.
QSauckel frequently attended the meetings, did he not?
ANot frequently, but at times.
QWhat were the functions of the Central Planning Board?
AThe distribution of raw materials to the various groups who had contingents; that is, Army, Navy, Air Force, civil requirements, for mining, various sectors, building industry, private concerns, and so on.
Q And labor, did it not?
ALabor, no. That was not to be distributed.
QIt had nothing to do with labor? Do I understand you correctly?
AWe could make suggestions, but not the distribution.
QYou mean by that not the distribution between different industries which were competing to obtain labor?
AThat was a point which concerned Armament Industry more than the Central Planning.
QDid you know that Speer turned over to the United States all of his personal papers and records, including the minutes of this Central Planning Board?
AI did not know that; I just hear it now.
QI will ask that the minutes, volumes of minutes which constitute U. S. Document R-124, offered in evidence as French Exhibit RF 30, be made available for examination by the witness in the original German, and I shall ask you some questions about it.
AYes.
(Documents were thereupon presented to the witness).
QIf you will point out to the witness page 1,059, Line 22, this, Mr. Witness, purports to be the minutes of Conference No. 21 of the Central Planning Board, held on 30 October 1942 at the Reich Ministry of Armament and Munitions, and the minutes show you to have been present. Do you recallbeing there at that meeting?
AFrom that one sentence, I can not see it, but I can well assume it.
QNow-
AYes, I see here that in the minutes my name is frequently mentioned.
QNow, I call your attention to Page 1059, Line 22, to the following entry and ask you if this refreshes your recollection about the functions of that Board:
"By Speer: We must also discuss the slackers. Ley has ascertained that the sick lists decreased to one-fourth or one-fifth in the factories where there are doctors on the staff who are examining the sick men. There is nothing to be said against the SS and Police taking drastic steps and putting these known as slackers into concentration camps. There is no alternative.
Let it happen several times, and the news will soon go around."
Were you not concerned with the discussion of the labor situation in that conference, and does that not refresh your recollection as to the dealing with the labor question?
A I can remember that there was talk about this question, but the slackers were workers who, in normal times, in peacetime, were not with us as workers, but by mobilizing the total labor power were put into the ranks and with regard to these people, I point out that they were not normal workers, and there were some slackers who disturbed the spirit of the work, and these are the people in question.
QThese were to be sent to concentration camps, asyou knew?
AYes, that was said, but that does not mean that was a resolution. Besides, this was not within our competence, to send anybody to the concentration camps.
QWell, was it not said that there was "nothing to be said against the SS" taking them over? You know that the SS was running the concentration camps, did you not?
AYes, of course.
QAnd, therefore, you know that turning them over to the SS and sending them to the concentration camps was a means of forcing them to produce more goods, was it not?
AYes, of course. Of course, these people should be forced. It was a question about the Germans who did not want to perform their duties to their county.
QDid this relate only to Germans?
AAs much as I know, it dealt only with Germans, who were called Bumulantew--fluctuating workers or vagrants. They were the only people who were charging their place of work frequently, and we were mostly told about them by the representatives of our own workers. Our own workers complained about the fact that these people had all the advantages, as far as foot, et cetera, was concerned, and they did not do anything and always in time left the factories, and each factory was glad when they got rid of these people.
QAnd got rid of them by sending them to the concentration camps under the SS?
AThey should be trained because it was raid that if these people would get a different kind of ration, not the basic rations which depended on the work, they would be quickly trained.
I do not see it here, but I can remember that the proposal was made to limit their treatment in time to about two or three months and to take them out again after that time if they were reasonable enough and to re instate them back into their old conditions.
Q Now, did you have anything to do on the Central Planning Board with the working of prisoners of war?
ANo, in my opinion not.
QWell, I ask that you be shown the twenty-second conference of the Central Planning Board minutes of the meeting held on the 2nd of November 1942, page 1042, at line 24, which quotes you. The English translation is on page 27.
I ask you to refresh your recollection by reading this paragraph "Milch, I believe that agriculture must get its labor quota.
Assuming we could have given agriculture 100,000 more men, we would now have 100,000 more men who would be more or less well fed. Well, actually, the human material which we received generally above all the PW's are not in good enough condition for work."
Did you make that statement?
AI cannot remember in detal, but I assume -- I don't think I have ever seen these minutes before, but I know that we dealt with the question that agriculture, if at all possible, should get their workers because the question of nutrition was so important and agriculture, of course, beuond the rations which the civilian population received would feed their workers. The question that one put these people into agriculture was quite in conformity with my intentions, but these are only suggestions which were made by the Central Planning Board. I don't know whether Sauckel was present at that meeting. We have uttered our opinion to these people who were there how several questions could be solved.
QAnd you made recommendations to the Reichsmarshal, didn't you?
AI could not say that from memory. No, I don't know. I can't say it from memory.
QThen you knew the Reichsmarshal's wishes in reference to the utilization of prisoners of war, did you not?
AThat prisoners of war were also working, well, I knew that. Especially in the country there were many prisoners of war put to work.
QDid you attend a meeting with the Fuehrer with Minister Speer?
AAt what date?
QThe 5th of March, 1944.
Q The 5th of March?
AThe 5th of March, 1944.
AOn the 5th of March, yes, I saw the Fuehrer. At that time it was the question to establish a fighter staff, that is, an effort of the entire industry to manufacture as many fighters as possible.
QWell, I'll ask that you be shown Speer's memorandum of that meeting with the Fuehrer at which General von Bodenschatz and Colonel von Belo were also present. Were they not?
The English translation is on page 35; the German on page 139.
I call your attention to this paragraph:
"I told the Fuehrer of the Reichsmarshal's wish for the further utilization of the productive power of prisoners of war by giving the direction of the Stalag to the SS. With the exception of the English and Americans, the Fuehrer considers the proposal good and has asked Colonel von Belo to arrange matters accordingly."
I ask you how the SS could increase the production of the prisoners of war; what steps you expected to be taken?
Now, just answer my question. What steps did you expect the SS to take to increase the production of the prisoners of war?
AI could not say that today any more. At any rate at that time we really did not know anything about the methods of the SS as we know it today.
QThis was in March of 1944?
AYes.
QWell, you have no knowledge of the methods by which the SS would be able to speed up production by prisoners of war. That's the way you want tha to stand?
ANo, no, that isn't the way I want it to stand. I was thinking about this point because I want to think about it a moment. I believe that it was dealing with the question whether prisoners of war were put to their disposal or not. It was not the question that these prisoners of war should do any work under the SS, only that they should be put at the disposal for that word That's what I have to assume.
QPut at the disposal by the SS, you mean?
Well, let's go on to the thirty-third conference by the Central Planning Board.
That is on the 16th of February, 1943, at which Speer and Sauckel among others appear to have been present. The English translation is on page 28; the German page 2276 to 2307. There was at this meeting, to summarize, considerable discussion of the labor situation, first a report from Schreiber and then Tim gave a general discussion of the labor situation. I call your attention to your contribution on page 2298 at the top.
AYes, I have just read it.
QIt is as follows:
"Milch, we have made a request for an order that a certain percentage of men in the artillery must be Russian. Fifty thousand will be taken together. Thirty thousand are already employed as gunners. This is an amusing thing that the Russians must work the guns."
What was amusing about making the Russian prisoners of war work the guns
AThe words "We have demanded", that doesn't mean the Central Planning Board, but that means Hitler had made that demand.
QYes, the German Government.
And I find it very peculiar that one should let the prisoners of war shoot against the planes of their allies. We did not like it because we he to release these men from this work. We were against it that they should be used in AA.
Q "This is an amusing thing that the Russians must work the guns."
what was amusing about it?
AI found it peculiar, not to be understood. I cannot say whether that word was used. I don't know these minutes. I have not seen them before Q Now, I call your attention to the rest of your statement.
"The last 20,000 are still outstanding. Yesterday I received a letter from the Army High Command, in which they say they could not release a single man. They themselves have not enough. Thus this measure will not be successful for us."
Who does "for us" refer to if not to your industry requirements?
AI think these minutes are wrong. It has never been said because it doesn't make sense. I cannot accept these minutes in that form.
QLet's turn to page 2298 for a -
ATo clarify this I can say that it deals with the problem of taking people out of armament and into anti-aircraft. We who were concerned with armament did not want to release these men and we were against it. That was the idea of the whole thing, and the OKH declared that they did not have enough people.
QI understand the sense of this to be that you applied for certain workmen for the armament industry and that the Army High Command refused to give you the men and said they already employed working guns and other work. Now, is that the souse of that or isn't it?
ANo, not quite.
QNow, just tell me what the sense of it is.
A As much as I can remember the whole affair, the armament should release for the Air Force 50,000 Russian prisoners for anti-aircraft, that the armament industry would not miss these people.
THE PRESIDENT:I am afraid we must adjourn due to some technical difficulty.
(A recess was taken)
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Justice Jackson, it may be convenient to you to know that we are going to rise at 4:30 today.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:I hope to be finished by then.
CROSS EXAMINATION - continued BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:
QI will ask to have your attention called to page 2297, in the English translation about page 28, to your contribution, which reads as follows:
"Milch: Of course a front exists somewhere in the East. This front will be held for a certain time. The only thing which the Russians inherit if we evacuate an area is the population. The question is whether we had not better make it a rule to take the population back first as far as 100 kilometers to the rear of the front. All of the civil population will be taken back 100 kilometers behind the front."
Do you find that?
AYes, I have found it.
QAnd I understood you this morning to state that it was a rule promulgated in your book that the civilian population should not be interfered with.
AFrom the last sentence, that the people would not be used for earth work, we can see that these people at that time were used for earth work. What kind of people they were I could not say. They had been used for these kinds of work already.
QAnd you knew that. You knew that they were being used for that kind of work.
AThat is in there in these minutes. I do not know it today any more, but at that time, according to the minutes, it has been said, that is to say, if these minutes are correct.
Q And you knew they werebeing used, the civilian population was being forced to dig trenches for your troops.
AToday I have no recollection of that, but at that time it was said, as the minutes show.
QNew, I will ask to have your attention called to the minutes of Conference Number 11 of the Central Planning Board, held on the 22nd of July 1942; German, page 3062; English translation, 38.
First let me call your attention to the fact that at that meeting it appears that among those present were Speer, yourself, Koerner -- did Koerner represent the Reichsmarshal?
AYes, for the Four Year plan. He was the representative for the Four Year plan.
QAt all meetings of this Board Koerner represented the Reichsmarshal, did he not?
AYes. He represented him for the Four Year Plan.
QAnd Sauckel was present, and representatives from the Iron Association, the Coal Association, and the Ministry for Armaments and Munition
AYes.
QThere was considerable discussion of the labor problem, and the requirements of those industries. On page 3062 I call your attention to this entry:
"General Fieldmarshal Milch will take measures to accelerate the procuring of the Russian prisoners of war from the camps."
I ask you what measures you expected to take to accelerate procuring prisoners of war from the camps.
ASince I was a soldier I had taken the job to present this question to the OKW, in whose competence the prisoners of war were at that time.
QYou didn't personally deal with the prisoners of war, but you undert* to obtain them from the OKW?
AThese prisoners of war had been put down for transfer by the Government. The transfer took very long, the transport, and since we had to speak to the OKW about it I did that, and I told the OKW that they should increase the speed of these transports.
Q Now let us turn to Conference Number 36, dated 22nd of April 1943;
the English Translation, page 13; German 2125. There again I call your attention to the fact that Speer, yourself, Sauckel, and Koerner were among those present. There again you discussed the labor problem, did you not?
AYes.
QAnd Koerner reported as follows, referring to Koerner:
"On the 1st of April, we had in agriculture a deficit of about 600,000 laborers. It had been planned to cover that by supplying labor from the East, mainly women. These laborers will first have to be supplied until other laborers are released from agriculture. We are justentering the season when the heaviest work in the fields has to be done", and considerably more, which I will not take the time to quote.
I call your attention to page 2128, your contribution to that discussion, which reads as follows:
"If one proceeds as I propose and Tim agreed to it, no damage can be done. This ought to be done in any case. For the rest I completely agree. We must now supply the mines with labor. The greatest part of labor which we can supply from the East will indeed be women, but the Eastern women are quite accustomed to agricultural work, and especially to the type of work which has to be done these coming weeks, the hoeing and transplanting of turnips, and so forth. The women are quite suitable for this. One thing has to be considered. First you must supply agriculture with the women. Then you can extract the men, laborer for laborer. It is not the right thing if first the men are taken away and the farmers are left without labor for four to six weeks. If the women arrive at such time they arrive too late."
I ask you how many women were transported to agriculture as a result of this conference.
A On the basis of this conference none at all, but this conference was only a suggestion from our side to assure for industry and agriculture a certain balance of labor.
Without the labor in mining, work could not be continued. Therefore labor was urgently needed, and here a suggestion wasmade as to how an exchange could take place to take men out of agriculture and replace them by women, whom, of course, one could not put into the mines.
QTo whom did you make these suggestions? You say they were not decisions but just suggestions.
ANo, the suggestions were made to the representatives of the Labor Ministry. I read the name Tim. That wasone of the higher officers of that ministry.
QAnd Sauckel?
AI don't know whether Sauckel was present at that meeting. I only remember the name Tim.
QIt appears from the minutes that he was there, but whether he was or not you made suggestions, as the planning committee, to Sauckel as to the needs for labor, didn't you, and called upon him to supply them?
AYes, we had the necessity in mining to have additional workers. New workers could not be found. Therefore it could only be done by an exchange.
QI understand you. You will save a great deal of our time if you will just answer the questions.
Now I call your attention to Conference No. 54 of the Central Planning Board, held on 1 March 1944, English translation page 1, German page 1762. At this conference I remind you that it appears that Sauckel, Milch, Schreiber, and Turner were among those present. It was held at the Ministry of Air Transport and you discussed the desirability of draining off young male people from France so that they would not be available to act aspartisans in case there was an invasion by the Allies of French territory.
Do you recallsuch a meeting?
AI cannot remember in detail. I have already in other interroga tories here in Nurnberg and in England stated that it is impossible to remember all these things in detail, which issues we were confronted with in large numbers, particularly since my memory has suffered, because I have been hit over the head after I was captured.
QIt will help you if you will refer to page 1799, opposite the name "Milch" and will read the entry, which reads as follows:
"Milch. In case the invasion of France begins and succeeds only to a certain degree, then we shall experience a rise by partisans such as we have never experienced either in the Balkans or in the East, not because this would have happened in any case but only because we made it possible by not dealing with them in the right manner. Four whole age groups have grown up in France, men between eighteen and twenty-three years of age, who are therefore at that age when young people, moved by patriotism or seduced by other people, are ready to do anything which satisfies their personal hatred against us, and of course they hate us These men ought to have been called up in age groups and dispatched to Germany, for they present the greatest danger which threatens us in case of invasion.
"I am firmly convinced, and I have said so several times, if invasion starts, sabotage of all railways , works, and supply bases will be a daily occurrence, and then it will really be the case that our forces are no longer available to survey the execution of our orders within the country, but they will have to fight at the front, thereby leaving in their rear a much more dangerous enemy who destroys their communications, and so forth. If one is shown the mailed fist and a clear-cut executive intention, a churchyard peace will reign in the rear of the front at the moment the uproar starts. This I have emphasized so frequently, but still nothing is happening, I am afraid, for if one intends to start to shoot at this moment, it will be too late for it. Then we have no longer men at our disposal to kill off the partisans," and you then go on to state that you think the army should handle the executive action required in rounding up these people.
Does that refresh your recollection?
A Yes, it is correct in this sense, but whether it is correct word for word I cannot say.
It dealt with the fight of our country for life and death and one had to take care that there would not be a knife in our backs by a secret army. Their resistance would flare up and our resistance would break down, as it really happened later.
QAnd you proposed to eliminate the population back of the lines in so far as they might constitute a menace to your operations in this invasion?
ANo, there people could in time, as it was promised by the French Government, have been sent for work in Germany. That was my opinion. That was the necessary thing, that these people should come to work in Germany, as the French Government had promised in their treaty with the German government, instead of letting these people go into the Marquis and commit sabotage, and as a means against sabotage make necessary the shooting of them later.
QYou did not confine your use of forced labor to your enemies; it was also applied aganst your own allies, was it not , (page 1814) and did you not contribute to this discussion?
"Milch. Would not the following method be better? We could take under German administration the entire food supply for the Italians and tell them only he gets any food who either works in a protected factory or goes to Germany."
AThat was after one part of Italy had been lost, and it dealt with Italian soldiers who had declared themselves against Mussolini, and these people were sitting around behind the front and did not want to work, and committed sabotage against the German Army. Consequently, this proposal was made that it should be said to these people, "You can get your food and everything, but you have to work some place, and that is either in Italy or in Germany."
QI think you said in your direct examination, or perhaps earlier in your cross-examination, that you did not know about any forced labor from occupied territory, that you had no knowledge of that. Is that still your statement?
A I have not quite understood that. Forced labor?
QForced labor, yes.
AYes.
QYou didn't know about it?
AIn the case of these people, they were prisoners of war, the Italians, which were at our disposal for work after an agreement with that Italian Government, which we recognized. Mussolini had put these men at our disposal for thatpurpose.
QLet us not bother with Mussolini here. I ask you whether you still stand by the statement you made earlier, as I recall it, that you did not know of any forced labor brought in from the occupied countries to Germany. Is that your statement, or isn't it?
ASo far as free people are concerned, I still assert that. In this case they were people who were put at our disposal, and, Mr. Justice, at that time this Italian government still existed even if today we do not speak about it. But at that time it still existed.
QI ask that your attention be brought to page 1827 of the minutes of this meeting at which you were present, and where the discussion you just admitted took place, and I call your attention to the line opposite the name "Sauckel," from which it appears that Sauckel then reported: "Out of the five million foreign workers who arrived in Germany not even two hundred thousand came voluntarily."
AI cannot remember that at all.
QYou don't have any recollection of that; all right.
ANo, I have no recollection.
Q Well, we will go on then to Conference No. 23 of the Central Plans Board, stillthe 3rd of November 1942.
It is the English translation, page 27. The German text is on page 1024, in which it appears that you were present at and participated in the discussion, and I call your attention to page 1024, line 10, to these entires of the stenographic minutes:
"SPEER: Well, through the industry we could deceive the French by telling them that we would release for their use, all prisoners of war who are rolling mill workers and smelters if they would only give us the names.
"ROLAND: We have established our own office in Paris. I see, you mean the French should report the smelters who are prisoners of war in Germany?
"MILCH: I simply say, you get two men in exchange for one of these.
"SPEER: The French firms know exactly which prisoners of war are smelters. Unofficially, you should create the impression that they would be released. They give us the names and then we get a hold of them. Do that.
"ROLAND: That is an idea." Now, your contribution was to want two men in place of one; is that right?
AYes; that is to say, two people from another profession to be released for one of these experts. That was the Government proposal and how they were needed, you can see.
QThat was your entire objection?
AThe entire purpose was to get such people and to give them others in exchange.
QNow, let us take up Conference 53 of the Planning Board, held the 16th of February 1944; English translation, page 26, and the German from 1651. You will find yourself included among those who were present and it was at the Reich Air Ministry that it was held. I first call your attention to the entry on page 1863, the words opposite "MILCH": "The armament industry employs foreign workers to a large extent; according to the latest figures, 40%. The new directions by the Plenipotentiary General for Manpower refer mostly to foreigners and we lost a lot of German personnel which was called up -- especially the air industry,, being a young industry, employs a great many young people who should be called up.
This will be very difficult, as is easily seen, if one deducts those working for experimental stations. In mass production, the foreign workers by far prevail. It is about 95% and higher. Out best new engine is made 88% by Russian prisoners of war and the other 12% by German men and women. 50-60 JU-52 which we now regard only as transport planes are made for us, only six to eight German men are working on this machine; the rest are Ukrainian women who have beaten all the records of trained workers."
Do you recall that?
AYes, I can remember that.
QAnd on 1873, you come forward with this suggestion:
"MILCH: The list of the shirkers should be entrusted to Himmler's trustworthy hands, who will make them work all right.
This is very important for educating people and has also a deterrent effect on such workers who would likewise feel inclined to shirk."
AYes, there has been the question of shirkers which I described this morning.
QAmong foreign workers, wasn't it?
ANo, thse were Englishmen, the shirkers.
QEnglishmen are foreigners in Germany, aren't they? I don't know what you mean, they were not foreigners. They were Englishmen.
ANo, English prisoners of war have never worked with us. No, it could not be Englishmen.
QWhat were they? You say they were entirely German.
AIt was "inlaenders", what we understood as "Bumulantens" (shirkers) who were the group of people who only workd during the waraand normally did not belong to our labor manpower but were forcibly taken during war time for that purpose.
QWe will get to that in a minute. First, I want to ask you how Himmler was goingto make them work. What did Himmler do, what methods did Himmler possess? Why were you proposing Himmler in this thing?
A Because Himmler reported in a discussion about the fact that there are different rations for the workers above the basic rations they had considerable additional rations, depending upon the type of work; for heavy work, several times the normal daily ration.
Each ration for normal work was given by the nutrition office independent of the question of how and why the man worked.
In the case of Himmler, however, the proposal was made that they give out the additional rations only then and to the extent that they deserved it for their work. Since Himmler had some people who were from concentration camps, and so forth, it was possible for these workers, he could use this method, and could introduce it, and, therefore, the proposal to send people who committed work sabotage against their own country, to send them--by giving these additional rations only if they did that work.
QYou know the differe ce between work camps and concentration camps, don't you?
AYes, of course.
QAnd these people who were doing work in these industries were kept inthe main in the work camps, were they not, in which their rations were controlled without Himmler's hands being in it at all?
ANo, the German workers were not in work camps, generally. They lived at home, and rec eived through the nutrition offices their additional rations. I want to point out a ain that the wish to take stronger measures came from the workers and executives, who at first complained, why the people who did not do anything, did not do their work, at a time of danger, should get additional rations and be better off then the other people, the population.
QYou say that all you are talking about were German prisoners of war and never foreign workers. Now, be clear about that?
AWell, I mean, about shirkers, I refer to German workers; in my opinion, it can only be these.
QI ask that your attention be called to page 1913: "MILCH: This is your contribution at that point: "It is therefore not possible to exploit fully all the foreigners unless we compel thm by piecework or we have the possibility of taking measures against foreigners who are not doing their bit."
Did you find that entry?
AYes.
QAnd then you proceeded to complain that "if a foreman lays his hands on a prisoner of war or smashes him, there would be a terrible row and the man is put into prison. There are sufficient officials in Germany who think "it their most important duty to stand up for human rights instead of war production.