were used for anti-partisan operations.
and were kind of holding divisions, so-called Schuetzen Battalions, which were put in independently under the commanders of Wehrmacht formations for the defense of certain objectives, such as railroads and so forth, and other military objectives. Moreover, from 1942 or '43 there were certain alarm units who were taken from the base formations or the rear zones. Russia? when I was put in the front, once when I was very ill for about six months; otherwise I was there until the end of 1942, when I was appointed Chief of the Anti-partisan Units. especially for you?
Q To whom were you directly subordinate in this new capacity? particular part of the Eastern Front? partisan Units?
A First of all, I was in Himmler's quarters. I had to establish a Central Office to which all notices came about the partisans, and in which all these notices were studied and passed on to the necessary authorities. of army groups and armies on the Eastern Front? the armies, and with the Wehrmacht leaders. should be employed to combat partisans?
conferred. you as well as I remember them: Wehrmacht Commanders Ostland, General of Cavalry Bremer; General Field Marshal Kuechler; Commander-in-Chief of the Army Group North; Commander-in-Chief of the Army Group Center, Kluege; Busch, the Wehrmacht Commander-in-Chief of the Ukraine; General of the Luftwaffe, Kitzinger; Generel Field Marshal Freiherr von Weichs, Commander-in-Chief in Serbia, such as Belgrade, and Commander-in-Chief in the area of Trieste. operations as compared to police and SS troops? the anti-partisan activity was mainly undertaken by formations of the Wehrmacht. officers or by SS officers?
A First of all, it was according to the area; in the operation area, almost always the Wehrmacht, but there were orders that whatever formations, whether it was Wehrmacht or police, the formation which had the most troops was to lead. partisan operations were to be conducted with severity? ctions as to the methods to be used in anti-partisan operations? detailed directions from above? a wild chaos in the anti-partisan activities. tions far more severe than the circumstances warranted, or were they not?
to act independently, the undertakings were carried out according to the character of the commander and according to the quality of the troops, and these varied greatly. I am of the opinion that the operations were often carried out not only on purpose but they also shot far beyond the mark. numbers of the civilian population? army groups and other Wehrmacht officers?
A This consequence was generally known. There was no necessity to make a special report, because every operation was reported in any case in all its details, and was known to every responsible leader. or by the commanders of army groups to stop these excesses? matter made a great many reports and discussed them with me, and afterwards passed them on through our service channels.
Q Did these reports by General von Schenkendorff have any effect?
Q Why not? change by being some at stricter, but he did not succeed in having this carried out. who committed offenses against the civilian population were not to be punished in the military courts? troops? fighting, because you can only educate troops if you have disciplinary powers and jurisdiction over them and can do something against excesses.
Q What decorations did you win during this war? the German Cross in gold, and the Knight's Cross to the Iron Cross.
COL. TAYLOR: Your Lordship, the witness is available for examination by others.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Soviet prosecutor wish to ask any questions.
COL. POKROWSKI: If you will allow me, I wish to ask these several questions: and '42, when you were the Chief of the Police and SS in the rear zone of Central Army Group?
A. There were directly under my command in 1941 one police regiment of the Order Police, and in addition at times for about two or three months, one SS Cavalry Brigade.
Q. Was the Einsatzgruppe B under you, at the head of which was Nebe?
A. No.
Q. Did you receive the reports of Nebe or not?
A. Not directly, but I received them later, managed to get them Later.
Q. What do you know about the activities of the Group B/
A. The Einsatzgruppe B was in Smolensk, and it operated just like the other Einsatz Groups. We heard everywhere in conversations that the Jews were assembled and put into ghettos.
Q. Did you report to the commands of the operational groups the activities of the Einsatzgruppe B?
A. I heard about this activity of Einsatzgruppe B through Schenkendorff who was at the head of the Army Group Center.
Q. Do you know about the order of the Commander of the Sixth Army, General Reichenau about the partisan movement?
A. Would you be kind enough to repeat the name; was it General von Reichenau?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, I know. I think it was in 1941, but it might have been in 1942; there was an order by General von Reichenau which was sent to all Wehrmacht commanders, and in this order he opposed the actions against th Jews and the partisans.
Q. In 1943, or later, were there under your command any troops which were especially fighting the partisan movement?
A. In 1943, as Chief of the Anti-partisan Movement, I was not direc ly in command, because I was Head of the Central Office, but when the jurisdiction of two commanders overlapped, I did lead some operations.
Q. Do you know anything about the existence of a special brigade which was formed from contrabandists and paochers and people released from prison?
A. From all these troops which were really qualified as antipartisans at the beginning of 1942, one battalion under the command of Duerrlewanger was put in as an anti-partisan unit in Army Group Center, and this battalion was gradually enlarged by some reserves, actually reaching the size of a regiment and later of a brigade. This was the Brigade Duerrlewanger, and it consisted for the most part of criminal elements, officially of poachers, but there were real criminals among the; who had committed robbery and even murder.
Q. Why was it that the command of the German Army so willingly strengthened and increased its forces, which were formed from the ranks of criminals and directed them for war against the partisans?
A. I am of the opinion that there was a close connection between the speech made by Heinrich Himmler at the beginning of 1941 before the campaign against Russia, when he spoke of the purpose of the Russian campaign, which was to decimate the Slav population by thirty million, and in order to be active in this direction, a troop of low characters would have to be formed.
Q. Did I understand you correctly that the character of people who were in charge of troops fighting the partisans had been given exact instructions as to how to act against the partisans and the civil population? I had in mind the direct destruction of the population.
A. I am of the opinion that for certain commanders and in certain formations this was the goal
Q. By which means and by what measures had the Wehrmacht taken to counteract the partisan attack? Did they have a plan, or did the actions change as the conditions required?
A. There was apparently not an absolutely certain plan, but big operations were introduced centrally and carried out. But mostly the active partisan operations were of an important character, because all the lower commanders were obliged to keep their own areas free from partisans, that is to say, to act on their own initiative.
Q. You have told us that in very many cases the generals and officers of theWehrmacht headed the movement, the fighting against the partisans. Can you name a few concrete facts and names of generals and officers who have taken part in it?
A. I do not quite understand the purpose of the question. The names of commanders?
Q. You have said that in not a few cases the operations directed against the partisans were directed by officers and generals of the Wehrmacht. I wish to know could you give us names of the officers and generals who have taken part.
A. I didn't quite understand. Names?--oh, yes, now I understand.
I have already named some of the generals. I remember Major General Hartmann. A large partisan operation was undertaken by General Reinhardt against partisan groups. There was no general in the rear zone who was not concerned with anti-partisan activity. If the names would be told me then I could remember either one or the other, if they participated or not.
Q. Perhaps you will tell us which great action was under General Ackmann.
A. I am afraid I can't remember.
Q. Were there any general orders relating to the prisoner-of-war populations or the partisan movement?
the partisans were to be treated or the population. That is what I approached them with, that no commands were given,--what was to be done with the partisans or even who was to be looked upon as partisans. But if anything happened against the German Wehrmacht there were no commands which said clearly what was to be done by way of reprisals. were absent there was a great possibility of actions, and any part of the command had the power to take any person and do with him whatever he liked? There was no possibility of exact control in individual cases, but the activity of all troops employed--it was quite clear to the commands, because in all reports these reprisals were exactly--it had to be reported how many partisans had fallen in the fight, how many partisans had been shot, how many partisans were shot on suspicion, and how many loses of troops they had. Every leader from above was quite able to see what had happened in any of the operations. reasons to suspect anybody of being a partisan, and to kill him? villages and to punish for helping the partisans?
A No, I don't think that there were any such written orders, but that is what I consider wrong, that there just were no orders. It ought to have been ordered quite clearly how many were to be executed if one German soldier had been killed or ten German soldiers had been killed. as a punishment of the local population for helping the partisans there, were the results of their personal decisions to take this measure?---I mean the personal decisions of the commander?
A Yes. These steps were taken by the commander independently. His own superior officer could not do anything about it, because the highest order were expressly that if any damage was done to the civil population there was to be no disciplinary or judicial measures taken against them.
Q The same is to be understood as far as hostages are concerned? I do not think hostages were taken at all. I don't think that the expression "hostages" was ever used in the anti-partisan activity. fourteen to eighteen years.
A I don't remember that in detail, but when I was made chief of partisan activities I was protested against when I protested against reprisals when the order was given in the anti-partisan activity. Partisans who were arrested were no longer to be shot, but were to be sent for labor into the Reich for the organization Sauckel. American prosecution--you have talked at that time that the fighting against partisan movements was to the destruction of the Slovenic and Jewish peoples? and for the destruction of Slavonic and Jewish races? I do not of course know whether they knew about the plan mentioned by Himmler. Wehrmacht during which it was clearly stated the methods of the war against partisans? known, but at these discussions it was not said that such and such a number of persons were to be shot. That is not how the executions took place. population by reducing the number of Slavs to thirty million. From where did you get this figure and this order?
A Not to kill; not to reduce to thirty million; but by thirty million. Himmler mentioned this in his speech.
Q I do not quite understand. Did the Wehrmacht know at that time the Slav population--would you kindly repeat the question; I am not quite clear about it?
carried out by the Wehrmacht under the administration of the districts which were occupied by the Germans were directed to the purpose of reducing the number of Slavs and Jews to thirty millions? Do you understand the question now? ation of thirty million if it had been continued in the same way, and if by the development of the situation this had not been altered completely.
COLONEL POKROWSKI: I have no more questions to put to the witness at this sitting of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Defense have any questions? BY DOCTOR EXNER (counsel for the General Staff of the OKW):
Q You said you were chief of the anti-partisan activity?
Q If there were such chaotic circumstances there why didn't you alter the system?
Q Why?
A Because I was never entrusted with this authority. I was not allowed to command or empowered with disciplinary powers, nor was I a judge.
Q Did you make a report to your superior officer?
A Every day. I had permanent office with Himmler.
Q Did you make any proposals about changes?
Q And why were these not realized? opinion that this change was not desired.
about the dead and wounded and the prisoners of the enemy after such action. Tell me what proportion, approximately what proportion were the prisoners to the dead on the enemy side?
A That varied. You can't take all the operations together. It was a fact that the prisoners were very much more numerous than the dead, but not in the years in which the orders had been given that prisoners were not to be taken at all.
Q You say that the system was stricter at first and milder later on? prisoners were to be transported, and that had not been the case at first. and which were directed to the elimination of millions of Slavs?
A I have already answered this question. I said there was no such written order. that you took were presented by Himmler to the Fuehrer?
A May I be a little bit more explicit in answering it? At first I had a permanent staff in Himmler's office. My chief of staff was there permanently while I was at the front. Between the Wehrmacht office, OKW, and OKH, and my own staff there was constant contact which was about the reports of the partisans' activities and which did not first come to me. But there were a number of channels which went by OKH, that is to say, the Wehrmacht reported just as much to us as we reported to the Wehrmacht. When these reports were collected in my staff every day these reports were passed to Himmler who passed them on.
Q To whom?
A The generals of the Wehrmacht. They have already confirmed that these reports reached them.
Q Were there Jews in these partisan groups?
A Without question. In some partisan groups there were, corresponding to the Jewish population, that some Jews participated.
Q In some cases. Was that perhaps more an exception? partisans should lead to the elimination of the Jews.
A I did not say that. We were talking about the question of the Einsatz groups before.
Q Tell me, do you know the regiment Duerrlewanger? Do you remember that? while ago.
Q Was that at one time under your command in the year 1941?
Q Was it a formation of the Army?
Q Can you tell me who was present at Himmler's speech?
Q Were officers of the Wehrmacht there?
DOCTOR EXNER: Thank you. DOCTOR KRAUS (counsel for Defendant Schacht): former Reichsbank president, Schacht, made a speech at the affair?
Q What was your profession at the time?
Q Were you present in your professional capacity?
Q. You suddenly left the room in the middle of the speech in protest, didn't you?
Q Was that in protest?
Q Then that is to say that you did not agree with the speech?
A It purposes. That was not on account of the speech, but in pretest. On account of the speech, no.
Q May I ask you then why you protested? Gauleiter Koch, which led to his being suspended. I was in such sharp opposition to Koch that I did not understand how Reich Minister Schacht could compliment such a man I considered to be completely corrupt. Koch?
A I think Schacht must know that it was a protest against Koch. I was able to explain that to him. BY DOCTOR SERVATIUS (counsel for Defendant Sauckel):
Q Mr. Witness, you said that a change came in the treatment of the partisans. It was ordered, you said, that the partisans were to be sent to labor service, From whom did this order come?
A I can't remember that in detail. I only know that Sauckel traveled around the East and made speeches and said it would be best if these people who had been taken prisoner in the partisan war, if they came to labor service.
Q I asked you who gave the order. Was it from Himmler or from the organization Sauckel?
A No. The organization Sauckel could of course not give orders about the partisans. I imagine that organization Sauckel had caused this to be done, but the orders come from Himmler.
Q Where was this organization Sauckel? What did it consist of? to put in the armament industry in the Reich.
Q You spoke of an organization, but you don't know of a real organization?
Q Do you know that Sauckel had no executive powers of his own?
A No, I didn't know that.
THE PRESIDENT: I want the attention of the Defendant's Counsel. Unless Counsel and the witness speak slowly and make adequate pauses between the questions and the answers, it is impossible for the interpreters to interpret properly, and the only result is that the questions and answers do not come through to the Tribunal, nor do the Defendant's Counsel get the benefit of the true meaning of the answers which have been given in the examination in chief, and everything that you may think you gain by rapidity of cross-examination, you lose by the inadequacy of the translation; and I will repeat, that you should pause at the end of your sentences and at the end of your question, so as to give the interpreter's voice time to come through.
BY DR. STAHMER (Counsel for Defendant Goering): Anti-partisan Groups. As such, you were devoted to the fighting of the partisans in the East? should be understood under the term "partisan"; the concept of "partisan" was unclear and had been for some time. Is that correct?
A In its essential meaning, yes. In my opinion, there must be drawn a distinction between partisans and those suspected of partisan activities. Troops do not always make this distinction. A partisan was a man who was particularly sought after and a trained man and also very well armed. It was always important to me that this concept should be particularly regarded and similarly it should not be indiscriminately said, as we say that one gets fire from wood or from a forest or from a house, that anyone could be called a partisan. Partisans were used to disappearing rapidly after a successful action; they relied on surprise. That is when the troops took counter measures and were not particularly schooled, and this concept had not been completely clarified and the result was that the troops said the shooting took place at such and such a village and therefore it was done by partisans; but according to my opinion, a partisan was that, person who was taken prisoner or killed with a weapon in his hand. All other people could not be characterized as partisans.
concept of "partisan?" Anti-partisan Forces, not only by me but also by General Schenkendorf, a large and continuous number of memos was handed in with regulations and we handled this matter. For instance, in central army groups, such memoranda were handed in all the time. Schenkendorf and I, together, worked out a series of regulations with the fighting of partisans which was never published. My Staff, immediately after I was appointed Chief of the Anti-partisan Forces-that is to say, the beginning of 1943--immediately took up its work and again worked out another series of regulations for the fighting of partisans. It lasted, however, quite a while before those regulations were actually published, mainly in the year 1944 when it was really already too late.
Q who published these regulations? in the year 1944.
Q What was its content?
A It was entitled "Bandenkampfverschrift" (Regulations for the Fighting of Partisans).
Q What was its contents? differentiating between large, small and medium groups, and so forth.
Q These regulations appeared in 1944. Was it theretofore your job to conduct the fighting against partisans in the entire East? How did you inform your forces how they should behave?
A First of all I had no authority to issue commands. I have already said so. Secondly, they never took the formulated partisan bands. They were simply occasional groups of men who got together. It was not the case that I had troops whose only purpose was the fighting of partisans. Moreover--and I should like to emphasize this--the document that appointed me Chief of the Anti-partisan Forces intended the fighting of partisans for the appropriate persons, either the Higher SS Officer or the Wehrmacht Officer who would come in to question in that field of regulation. I myself in that regulation simply had the capacity as Inspector. Despite my continuous request for -
THE PRESIDENT: You must go slowly and pause between your sentences.
Q As General of the Waffen SS you must have had power to issue commands? have had units?
Q Then with what did you conduct your fighting of partisans? talked the question over with him and requested the necessary troops, if they were not given to me, as often happened, directly by the OKW or the OKH.
Q You requested, in other words, troops. If they were not given to you; then those troops were under your command?
A No, only when I actually lead the attack. Either the General of the Wehrmacht in question or if it was in a field in which there was a civil government, the SS Police Leader in question. That was one of the regulations for the use of Anti-partisan groups that I could only request authority to issue commands if I had the endorsement of the Higher SS or Wehrmacht Officers. In places where only groups overlapped, in such regions where two armed groups overlapped, I could take the authority.
Q Did you ever conduct an action yourself?
Q In what way? the region of Idrizza Polotsk. I flew, first of all, to the central army group and talked these matters over with General Krebs and then went to the central armed group, another armed group, and talked the same things over with Field Marshal Kuechler. Kuechler had called together all the troops of the forward and rear areas and something was done by the central army groups with its forces in each of them; in other words, some esprit de corps. I belonged to the staff in control of this corps and had as liaison officer Melentin. Then I myself carried out the undertaking. In the meantime, the front had been broken through in the Nebe's Sector and I came to the independent decision to make a new front against these Russian soldiers who had broken through, and in this way I became the front line-I and my unit. Knight's Cross. Did you receive this decoration for that activity? year 1941 for the front line service: 1941 in front of Moscow, later by Wilikuluki, later by the uprising in Warsaw, and from then on I lead an SS Corps. Hitler and Himmler, particularly for your ruthless and severe fighting of partisans? partisans. I received all my decorations in the Wehrmacht and for my services at the front line. I would be glad to name the names.
Q The Brigade Duerrlewanger was an SS Brigade? SS. It was an organization which at best could be classified with the Allgemeine SS.
Q Did the Commander Duerrlewanger belong to the SS? collected and used for the fighting of partisans? CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. THOMA (Counsel for Defendant Rosenberg): Ruthenia often protested against the anti-partisan activities? and he in turn was subordinate to Rosenberg? to the way in which the anti-partisan movement was carried out, in which many innocent people ware killed, and also objected to the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler's orders? orders stating the regulations for partisan movement and also for the use of Einsatz groups were-
THE PRESIDENT: The question had not come through then on the interpreter's voice before you began to answer. You must give greater pauses between the question and answer.
Q (continuing) Did you understand my question?
inspector and to remain an inspector of the anti-partisan forces?
A I did not reconcile that with my conscience. But I actually strove to achieve this position because I saw in the years '41 and '2, along with Schenkendorf, that things could not continue as they were. And Schenkendorf, my immediate superior, suggested to me, or rather suggested me. suggestions ?
A No, I didn't and couldn't know that.
Q At any rate, you did not achieve, anything?
A I don't believe that. My opinion is that if someone else had been in that position, much more misfortune would have taken place than actually did.
Q Do you believe that Himmler's regulations, in which he demanded that thirty million Slavs should be exterminated--do you believe that was his opinion, or was it a part of the whole National Socialistic attitude toward life? that attitude was such a regulation.
Q To-day--what was your opinion at that time? and it took me a long while. in this Tribunal, namely Ohlendorf, who admitted that under his command of Einsatz groups, ninety thousand people were killed, and the Court was informed this did not correspond to National Socialist ideology? doctrines as preached that the Slavic race is an inferior race and Jews not even human, then such an explosion was inevitable.