THE PRESIDENT: You mean the group which changed; therefore they might be different in '44?
DR. LATERNSER:The point, Mr. President, and in addition to that, especially a largo membership of the people belonging to this circle in the course of '44, because of their official position, actually came to this group, and I do consider this point pertinent.
THE PRESIDENT:All right. BY DR. LATERNSER:
QWitness, my question was, can you give me the names of those generals who participated in the attempted assassination of the 20th of July 1944?
AG eneral Oberst Beck, General Fieldmarshal Witzleben, General Olbrecht, General Hoebner.
QJust one question. General Hasa, and, certainly, a large number of other generals, whom I am not able to enumerate so rapidly. Here I just mentioned those names of the men who were at that address that afternoon.
QDo you know, witness, whether Fieldmarshal Rommel was active in this?
AI cannot answer just yes for it is a fact that Rommel, as well as Fieldmarshal von Kluge, did participate. But it would give the wrong picture if Fieldmarshal Rommel especially would appear in the category of those who fought against Hitler. Mr.Rommel was a typical Party general and he wanted connection with us very late, and we had a rather unsavory taste when all of a sudden Mr. Rommel in the light of his military catastrophe, proposed to us to have Hitler assassinated but, if possible, Goering and Himmler as well. And, even then, he did not wish to be there at the first, but he wanted to be in a special reserve and to put his popularity at our disposal a little later on. Therefore, it is quite a problem just when these gentlemen entered our group as people who have been beaten, same one who wanted to save their reputation, or who were with us right from the beginning.
QDid you talk with Rommel about this?
ANo.
Q Then, a further question. On the 20th of July were officers, of the General Staff active?
AYes, a large, group.
QAbout how many?
AI can't give you the number for at that time I did not have any inside information as to how many Staufenberg had on his side from the General Staff. I know that Staufenberg and Hansen and some others had found a number of clean courageous officers of the General Staff, and that they could count on the support of many members of the General staff but whom they could not initiate into their plans beforehand.
QYes, that is enough for the present. You later mentioned General von Treskow. Did you know him personally?
AYes.
QDo you know anything about the fact that General von Treskow after he found out of the commissar decree, that he saw von Rundstedt and that he was instrumental that this decree was not transmitted in von Rundstedt's sector?
ATreskow for many years has belonged to our group and there was no action where he called the attention of his superiors to such decoction I know how at that time the famous commissar decree was known, to us, at first through hearsay, and we at once sent a courier to Treskow to tell him of the bastardly---and how Treskow, after a decree had been publsihed. called upon von Rundstedt, as you described the situation.
THE PRESIDENT:You said a while ago that you were just going to ask your last question.
DR. LATERNSER:Mr. President, I am sorry I could not keep to that. I had one further question, but this was my last one.
THE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will adjourn.
(A recess was taken.)
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other member of the defendant's counsel wish to ask any questions of the witness?
(No response)
Then do the Prosecution desire to cross examine?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:
QMay it please the Tribunal, I have a few questions to you, Dr Gisevius, and if you will answer them as nearly as possible, yes or no, as you are capable of giving a truthful answer, you will save a great deal of time.
The Tribunal perhaps should know your relations with the Prosecution. Is it not a fact that within two months of the surrender of Germany I met you at Wiesbaden, and you related to me your experiences in the conspiracy that you have related here?
AYes.
QAnd you were later brought here, and after coming here were interrogated by the Prosecution as well as by the Counsel for Frick and for Schacht?
AYes.
QNow, your attitude and viewpoint is, as I understand you, that of a German who felt that loyalty to the German people required continuous opposition to the Nazi regime. Is that a correct statement of your position?
AYes, yes.
QAnd you had a very large experience in police matters in Germany,
AYes.
QIf your Putsches or other moves to obtain power in Germany were successful, it was planned that you would be in charge of the police in the reorganization, was it not?
AYes, indeed.
QEither as Minister of the Interior or as Police Commissioner, whatever it might be called.
AYes, certainly.
QNow, you represented the belief that it was not necessary to govern Germany with concentration camps and with Gestapo methods; is that correct?
AYes.
QAnd you found all of the ways of presenting your viewpoint to the German people cut off by the Gestapo methods which were used by the Nazi regime; is that a fact?
AYes.
QSo that there was no way open to you to obtain any change in German policy except through revolt or assassination, or means of that kind?
ANo. I am convinced that until 1937 or the beginning of 1938 the possibility did certainly exist that by means of a majority in the cabinet or by means of pressure from the armed forces a change in the situation in Germany could have been brought about.
Q Then, you fix 1937 as the time when it ceased to be possible by peace ful means to effect a change in Germany; is that correct?
AThat is how I would judge it, yes.
QNow, it was not until after 1937 that Schacht joined your group; is that not a fact?
AWell, as far as I said, the group wasn't formed until 1937, 1938, but for example, Schacht got me into touch with Goerdeler in 1936, and the acquaintance between Schacht and Oster existed since 1936, just as Schacht knew a large number of other members of the group and for some considerable time.
QBut Schacht did not become convinced, as I understand your statement to us, until after 1937, until the Putsch affair, that he wouldn't be able to handle Hitler in some peaceful way; is that not correct?
AWhat do you mean? Peaceful? In that case, yes. The answer is yes. Schacht until the end of 1937 did believe that a legal removal of Hitler should be impossible.
QBut by the end of 1937, as you now say, the possibility of a peaceful removal of Hitler had become impossible, in fact.
AAs we considered it, yes.
QYes. Now, there was, as I understand your view in going to the Generals, there was no power in Germany that could stop or deal with the Gestapo except the Army.
AYes. I would answer that question in the affirmative.
QThat is, in addition to the Gestapo, this Nazi regime also had a private army in the SS, did they not, and for a period in the SA?
AYes.
QAnd if you were to come back successfully at the Nazi regime, you had to have manpower which only the Army had; is that right?
AYes, people who could be found among the armed forces, but we were als trying to get hold of the people among the police, and we needed all the decent officials in the ministry -- generally speaking, the masses of the people.
Q But the Wehrmacht was the source of power capable of dealing with the SS and the Gestapo if the generals had been willing?
AOf that we were convinced.
QAnd that is the reason you kept seeking the help of the generals and felt left out when they wouldn't give you their assistance, finally?
AYes.
QNow, there came a time when everybody connected with your group knew that the war was lost.
AYes, quite.
QAnd that was before these plots on Hitler's life and it was apparently before the Schwabendorf plot and before the July 20th plot, that the war was lost, was it not?
AI should like to make it quite clear that no one in our group-no one couldn't knew, even when the war started, that Hitler could never possibly win this war.
QBut it became very much more apparent as time went on, not only that the war could not be won by Germany but that Germany was ping to be physically destroyed, as a result of the war; is that not true?
AYes.
QYet, under the system which the Nazi regime had installed, you had no way of changing the course of events in Germany except by assassination or a revolt; is that true?
AYes.
QAnd so you resorted to those extreme measures, knowing that Hitler could never make peace with the Allies; is that true?
AYes.
QAnd your purpose in this was to save Germany the last destroying blows which unfortunately she received from the point of view of the Germans; is that not a fact?
AI should like to say that we, since the beginning of the war, no longer considered Germany alone. I think that I must be permitted to say that we bore our share in the responsibility of Germany as far as the war was concerned.
QWell, what you were endeavoring to do was to get the war to an end, since yo had not been able to stop its commencement, were you not?
AYea.
QAnd that was impossible as long as Hitler was at the head of the government and this group of men behind him?
AYes.
QNow, there was another plot on Hitler's life that you haven't mentioned. "as there not a bomb that was later found to have been a Communist bomb; was it not?
AThis happened on the 9th of November 1939, in the Buergerbraukeller, the beercellar in Munich. It was a bomb individual of Communists, I believe.
QNow, at none of these times when Hitler's life was endangered, by a strange coincidence was Goering or Himmler ever present; is that not true
AYes.
QDo you attach any importance to that fact?
AWe have quite often regretted this; for instance, if the attempt had succeeded, if Goering and Himmler had assisted Hitler on the 17th of July--but as years went by the situation was that this clique separated themselves so much and protected themselves so much, that they could hardly be found together anywhere; and Goering, of course, was gradually so keen on his art collection at Karin Hall that he was hardly ever present during serious conferences.
QNow, the assassination of Hitler would have accomplished nothing, from your point of view, if the number two man had stepped into Hitler's place, would it?
AThat, for a long time, was a debatable problem and Brauchitsch, for instance, was imagining that together with Goering they wanted to create a temporary regime. Our group always refused to be together with that man for even one single hour.
QHow did you plan -- if you were successful -- to deal with the other defendants here, with the exception of the defendant Schacht, all of whom, I understand, you regard as a part of the Nazi government?
A These gentlemen would have gone behind looked doors, and I think until they had been sentenced, they wouldn't have had to wait for any law,
QNow, does that apply to every man in this dock with the exception of Schacht?
AYes, every man.
QThat is, you recognized thorn, your group recognized them all parts and important parts of the Nazi regime--a Nazi conspiracy. Is that a fact?
AI shouldn't like to tie myself down to the words "Nazi conspiracy." Tic considered thorn the men responsible for everything and all the unceasing misery which that government had brought to Germany and the world.
QI should like to ask you a few questions about the Gestapo. You testified generally in reference to the crimes which were committed by that organization and I ask you to state whether that included the torturing and burning to death of a large number of persons?
AI don't think that question came through correctly.
QI am asking you as to the crimes committed by the Gestapo and I am asking if it included the torturing and burning to death of thousands of persons ?
AYes.
QDid it involve the unlawful detention of thousands of innocent people?
AYes.
QThe throwing of them into concentration camps where t hey were tortured and beaten and killed?
AYes.
QDid the Gestapo engage in wholesale confiscation of property?
AYes, to a degree; they called it "property hostile to the state."
QAnd did it practice extortion against Jews and against others?
AIn masses and by the millions.
QDid the Gestapo hinder and molest the public officials who were too prominent to be murdered until they resigned or were driven from office?
A The Gestapo used every means from murder to the means of that of coercion.
QNow, the question arises here as to whether the members of the Gestapo know what the Gestapo was doing, and will you please tell the Tribunal what the situation was as to the membership in that organization and its knowledge of its program?
AI had already committed my statements by saying that every member of the Gestapo from the first or second day, would have to see and have to know what that institution is doing.
QNow, there were some people who were taken into the Gestapo at the beginning, who were transferred from other branches of the civil service, were they not, who were in a sense invariably members of the Gestapo?
AYes; these members in the course of the first year were eliminated because of being unreliable politically.
QAnd the transfer took place at the time Goering set up the Gestapo, did it not?
THE PRESIDENT:What did the witness mean by "eliminated"?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:I think eliminated from the Gestapo.
THE WITNESS:Gradually they were released from the service of the Gestapo. BY JUSTICE JACKSON:
QNow, after the purge of the 30th of June 1934, were special pains taken to see that no one was permitted in the organization who wasn't in sympathy with its program?
AThese attempts started after the 1st of April 1934 when Himmler and Heydrich took ever the business. Actually, beginning with that date, no official was employed or allowed into the Gestapo unless Himmler and Heydrich were sure that he had the attitude which they desired. It may be that during the first month some officials, bureau officials, did got in who had not yet been cleared or did, of course, take quite a lent time after the SS had educated their own criminal officials and trained the police.
QHowever did there come a time, and if so, will you fix it as nearly as possible, after which every member of the Gestapo must have known the criminal program of that organization?
A For many years I have considered that question myself and discussed it with neighbors and my friends.
The reply entailed very great responsibility and because of my knowledge of that responsibility, I should like to say that from the beginning of 1935, at the very last, at the very latest, everyone had to know what authority, what organization he was joining and which type of orders he might have to expect.
QYou have testified as to theinvestigations which you made when you were connected with the police administration and you mentioned the Reichstag fire but you did not tell us what your findings were when you investigated that. Will you please tell us?
A To speak briefly and to state the facts, fir st of all we ascertained that quite generally Hitler had stated the wish for a large-scale propaganda campaign.
Goebbels took on the job of making the necessary proposals and preparing them, and it was Goebbels who first thought of setting the Reichstag on fire. Goebbels talked about this to the leader of the Berlin SA Brigade, Carl Ernst, and he suggested in detail how it should be carried out.
A certain chemical was chosen, known to every expert, and it was to be sprayed. It ignites after a certain period, I think hours or minutes. So as to get inside the Reichstag, one needed the corridor which connected the palace of the Reich President with the Reichstag Building. A group of ten reliable SA men were made ready, and now Goering was informed about every detail of the plan. Goering, quite by accident, wasn't making an election speech on that particular evening, but at a late hour was still sitting at his desk in the Ministry of the Interior in Berlin.
It was expected from Goering, and he gave assurances that he would do so, that the police would be instructed, while still suffering from shock, to take up a false trail. Right from the beginning it was intended that the Communists should be debited with this crime, and it was in that sense that these ten SA men who had to carry out the crime had been instructed.
That is, in a few words, the story of the events. To tell you how we got hold of the details, I have only to add that one of these ten who had to spread the chemical was a notorious criminal, and six months later he was thrown out of the SA. When the award which he had been promised did not arrive, he thought that he should go to the Reich Court, sitting in Leipzig at the time, and report his knowledge to them. He was taken before an interrogator who composed a record, but the Gestapo heard of it and the letter to the Reich Supreme Court was intercepted and destroyed.
That SA man by the name of Rail who betrayed the plan, was murdered by men of Goering and by order of Gestapo Chief Diehls. Upon finding the body, we picked up the trail of the whole story.
QWhat happened to the ten SA man who carried out the Reichstag fire? Are any of them alive now?
ANone of them are still alive. Most of them were killed on the 30th of June under the pretext of the Roehm revolt. Only one, a certain Heini Gewehr, was taken over by the police as a police officer, and we followed his trail as well.
He was killed on active service as a police officer on the Eastern Front.
QI think you testified that you also investigated, with the entire affair of Roehm, the murders that followed the Roehm affair. Didn't you so testify?
AI can't say that I carried out the investigation, since we, the Ministry of the Interior, had actually been excluded from the whole affair. But matters were, such that after the 30th of June, all cries for help and all complaints of the affected people reached us in the Ministry of the Interior, During the 30th of June, we received radio messages currently, and heard, through occasional persons in Goering's palace, and through neighbours , what the details were.
QNow, about how many people were killed in that purge?
AWe have never been able to establish that figure exactly, but I estimate that no more than 150 to 200 persons lost their lives, which, considering the situation at that time, was an incredible figure.
I, myself, sat together with Minister of Justice Guertner to compare the list which he had been given by Hitler and Goering regarding the number of the dead, and we ascertained that that list which contained 77 names of dead, who had supposedly been killed justly, was exceeded by nearly 100 per cent, through these names which we had received from the Adjutant General's Department or which we had heard through telephone calls from the Ministry of the Interior.
QNow, did you ascertain who selected the men who were killed in that purge?
AFirst of all, we ascertained that Himmler, Heydrich and Goering had compiled exact lists, because I myself listened when in Goering's palace, and I heard it confirmed by Daluege who was present, and also by Nebe who was present from the first second, that no one of those who were killed was mentioned by name. One only referred to it as "No, so and so has now been dealt with"; "No, so and so is missing", and "No, so and so will be dead forthwith", but there is no doubt that on that occasion Heydrich and Himmler had a special list of their own.
On that official list there were several Catholics, Klausner and others, and I cannot, for instance, say under oath in this courtroom whether Schleicher's murder was done by order of Goering or whether he was a man who was on Heydrich's or Himmler's special list.
QNow, was the defendant Frick fully informed as to the facts which you knew about the illegal conduct of the Gestapo?
AYes. Every bit of material which arrived which was important had to be taken to him by me, and I have already described how all these matters were sent to the Secret State Police or to the Interior Ministers of the counties by us by way of reports, so that the situation was, of course, that considering that only the most important things were put before Frick personally, amongst all this material I estimate that several hundred complaints were received daily. Those important things had to be put before Frick, because he had to sign them personally, since Goering was always complaining as soon as he saw that some young official could make requests to the Ministry of State himself and could sign them.
QNow, was Frick informed of your conclusions about the Roehm purge?
AYes, because oh Sunday, while the murderers were carrying on, I talked to Frick about the murder of Strasser, Klausner and Schleicher, and the many other murders, and Frick was particularly disgusted about the murder of Schleicher because he considered that an act of personal revenge on Himmler's and Goering's part. Likewise, Frick was disgusted about the murder of Klausner, Bohse, Edgar Jung, and the many others who had been murdered without being guilty. He was quite disgusted.
QBut when Frick signed the decree, along with Hitler, declaring these murders legitimate and ordering no prosecutions on account of those murders, Frick knew exactly what had happened from you, is that the fact?
AHe knew it from me, and he had seen it himself, no doubt. At that moment, the story of the 30th of June must have been known to Frick.
QNow, did Frick over talk with you about Himmler and Heydrich as being bad and dangerous, cruel persons?
AOn that Sunday, the first of July, Frick said to me "If Hitler doesn't very soon do with the SS and Himmler what he has done with the SA today, then he will experience from the SS many things worse than those he has now experienced with the SA."
That foresight touched me deeply at that time, to hear that Frick would say that so openly, before me.
QBut notwithstanding the estimate he made of those men as dangerous persons, did he not thereafter appoint them both in his Ministry of Interior?
AWell, of course, they were actually appointed by Hitler. I can only say that when I took leave from Trick at the time I left the Ministry of Interior in May, 1935, Frick said to me literally this:
The eternal scandal attached to my person had taught him that from now on he would only collect Party members in his Ministry and as much as possible those who had the Golden Party Emblem.
It might be that as things went on he might even have been forced to allow Himmler into his Ministry and the murderer Heydrich he would not allow into his Ministry under any circumstances These are the last words I exchanged with Frick.
QBoth were put in charge of matters that were under his legal control, were they not?
AYes, they became members of the Reich Ministry of the Interior and Frick remained their superior. BY THE PRESIDENT:
QDid you say that those were the last words which you exchanged with the defendant Frick?
AYes.
QThat was in 1935?
AYes, I have not met him after that or talked to him.
QNow, after 1934 Frick was the Minister in charge of the running and controlling of concentration camps, was he not, Dr. Gisevius?
AIn my opinion the Reich Minister of the Interior was responsible from the beginning for all police matters in the Reich and therefore also the concentration camps and I do not believe that one can say he had only had that responsibility since 1934.
QWell, I am willing to accept your amendment to my question.
I ask that you be shown document number 3751-PS of the United States, which has not yet been offered in evidence.
(Witness handed document)
Now, this purports to be a communication from Dr. Guertner, the Minister of Justice, to Reich and Prussian Minister of the Interior. That would be from your friend Dr. Guertner to Frick, would it not?
AI believe I heard you say "friend". Guertner during the time he acted as Minister did not act in such a way that I could call him my friend.
QWell then, tell us about Guertner. Tell us about Guertner's position in this situation because we have a communication here apparently from him.
A Guertner at that time and without doubt tried a lot to uncover the cruelty in the camps and to take proceedings.
All together and in individual cases Guertner did try quite a lot but that law after the 30th of June was signed by him which made all these dreadful things legal and apart from that, Guertner never drew the consequences from his views. But particularly that document which you put before me was such an attempt on Guertner's part and amongst the decent officials in the Ministry of Justice, to clarify principally the question of the terror of the Gestapo. As far as I recollect this is one of these letters which we discussed unofficially beforehand so as to, shall we say, provoke an answer.
QI now desire to read some parts of this into the record. It becomes U.S. Exhibit 828. I will offer it as such.
Will you kindly follow the German text and see if I correctly quote:
"My dear Reichsminister:
"Enclosed you will find a copy of a report of the Inspector of the Secret State Police, dated 28 March, 1935.
"This report gives me an occasion to state my fundamental attitude toward the question of the boating of internees. The numerous instances of ill-treatment which have come to the knowledge of the administration of justice can be divided into three different causes for such illtreatment of prisoners:
"1. Boating as a disciplinary punishment in concentration camps.
"2. Ill-treatment, mostly of political internees, in order to make them talk.
"3. Ill-treatment of internees arising out of sheer fun, or for sadistic natives."
I think I will not take the Tribunal's time to read his comment on number one or timber two.
"About number three --"
Do you find that in the German text?
AYes.
Q "The experience of the first revolutionary years has shown that the persons who are charged to administer the beatings generally lose pretty soon the feeling for the purpose andmeaning of their actions and permit themselves to be governed by personal feelings of revenge or sadistic tendencies.
As an example, members of the guard detail of the former concentration camp at Bredow near Stettin completely stripped a prostitute who had an argument with one of them and boat her with whips and cowhides in such a fashion that the woman two months later still showed two open and infected wounds."
I shall not go into the dimensions, they are not important.
"In the concentration camp at Kemna near Wuppertal, prisoners were locked up in a narrow clothing locker and were then tortured by blowing in cigarette smoke, upsetting the locker, etc. In some cases the prisoners were given first salt herring to eat, so as to produce an especially strong and torturing thirst.
"In the Hohenstein concentration camp in Saxony, prisoners had to stand under a dripping apparatus especially constructed for this purpose until the drops of water which fell down in even intervals caused seriously infected wounds on their scalps.
"In a concentration camp in Hamburg four prisoners were lashed for days, once without interruption for three days and nights, once five days and nights, to a grating in the form of a cross, being fed so meagerly with dried bread that they almost died of hunger.
"Those few examples show such a degree of cruelty which is an insult to every German sensibility, that it is impossible to consider any extenuating circumstances.
"In conclusion, I should like to present my opinion about these three points to you, my dear Herr Reichsminister, in your capacity as cabinet member in charge of the establishment of protective custody and the camps for protective custody."
And he goes on to make certain recommendations for action by the Minister.
I do not know whether the Tribunal cares to have more of this road.
Was any improvement in conditions noted after the receipt of that communication by Frick?
AThe letter was received during those very days when I left the Ministry of the Interior. I should like to say only one thing as far as the letter is concerned.
The things described in it are really only a fraction of the things which we knew.
I participated when this letter was prepared by talking to the officials concerned in the Ministry of Justice. The Minister of Justice could only quote those matters which had reached him through some legal channels and by accident, perhaps, through some proceeding which had been instituted. But there can be no doubt that this letter was merely the cause and the cause in turn was a very cheeky letter from Heydrich to Guertner, dated the 28th of March, 1935, in which he denies that the Minister of Justice has the right to prosecute in the cases described.
The letter, therefore, does notintroduce anything new into my statements and no doubt you all have convinced yourself that these conditions which started at that time did never cease but that they got worse and worse as time went on.
QNow, there came a time when Heydrich was assassinated in Prague, did there not?
AYes, the very brave Czechs did achieve something which we unfortunately did not achieve. That will always be to their glory.
QNow, I suppose the Czechs expected and did you expect that the assassination of Heydrich would result in name improvement in this condition?
AWe asked ourselves, was Canaris, Oster, Nebe and the others of the group, we asked ourselves whether it was possible at all that an even, worse man could possibly be sound after such a monster as Heydrich and as far as that is concerned we really did think that the Gestapo terror would now be alleviated and that perhaps a certain amount of legal treatment might be brought about or that at least the cruelties might be reduced.
Q And then came Kaltenbrunner. Did you notice any improvement after the appointment of Kaltenbrunner?
Tell us about that.
AKaltenbrunner came, yes, and things got worse every day. Once more we had the experience that perhaps the impulsive actions of a murderer like Heydrich weren't as bad as the cold, legal logic of a lawyer who was handling such a dangerous instrument as the Gestapo.
QCan you tell us whether Kaltenbrunner took an even more sadistic attitude than Himmler and Schellenberg had done? Were you informed about that?
AYes. I know that Heydrich, in a certain sense, felt something like a bad conscience when he committed his crimes. At any rate, he didn't like it too well if, in the circles of the Gestapo, these things were discussed openly. Nebe, who , as Chief of the Criminal Police, had the same rank as the Chief of the Gestapo, Mueller, always told me that Heydrich was anxious and was making every effort to cover up and conceal his crimes.
Upon the entry of Kaltenbrunner into that organization, that habit ceased, and now it was openly said amongst the department chiefs of the Gestapo what all these matters were about. They were openly discussed. Of course, the war had started and these gentlemen lunched together, and I repeatedly had the experience that Nebe returned completely exhausted from such luncheons. It came to the point where he had a nervous breakdown. On two occasions Nebe had to take sick leave for lengthy periods because he simply could not stand that open cynicism with which mass murder, and the technique of mass murder, was now being discussed.
I need only remind you of the gruesome chapter of the installation of the first gas chamber, which was discussed in detail amongst these people, just as were the experiments regarding how one could most quickly and most efficiently remove the Jews. They were the most horrible descriptions which I have ever heard in this life of mine; and, of course, it is so much worse when you hear them from some one who is still under the impression of such discussions, and who is practically collapsing, both physically and psychologically. That is worse, of course, than when you hear it via documents.
Nebe became so ill, that on the 20th of July, he really had persecution mania and was only a human wreck after everything he had gone through.
Q Was it the custom to have daily dinner conferences of the chiefs of the Main Security Office, these who happened to be in town?
ADaily luncheon conferences, yes, and everything was discussed, including questions which were of particular importance to us, because we heard about details of the methods used by the Gestapo against our group.
So as to prove my statements, I can report in this instance that, for instance, the arrest order issued against Goerdler on the 17th of July was mentioned. It was solved during such a luncheon conference, and Nebe warned us at once. That is the reason why Goerdler could escape for a lengthy period, at least, and why we could know how far the Gestapo was informed about our plot.
QAnd who were the regular attendants at those luncheon conferences?
AKaltenbrunner was in the chair. Then there was Gestapo Leader Mueller, Schellenberg, Ohlendorf, and Nebe.
QAnd do you know whether, at those meetings, the new kinds of torture and the technique of killing by gas, and other measures in the concentration camps, were discussed.
AYes. It was discussed in great detail, and sometimes I received the description a few minutes later.
QNow, what is the situation with reference to the information of the foreign office about the conduct of the Gestapo? Will you tell us what was done to inform the Foreign Office from time to time of the crimes that the Gestapo were committing?
AThe Foreign Office, particularly during the earlier years, was being continuously informed, since nearly every day some foreigner was nearly beaten to death or robbed. Then came the diplomatic missions, with their complaints; and these complaints were sent to the Ministry of the Interior by the Foreign Ministry. That came into my sphere. Sometimes four or five such notes from the Foreign Office regarding perpetrations of the Gestapo reached me, and I can testify that in the course of the years no perpetration of the Gestapo was left out of these particular notes.
QDid you make certain reports to the Foreign Office which were so dispatched that you are reasonably certain they would reach Neurath?
ARibbentrop wasn't the Foreign Minister yet.