Just how these matters developed and just how orders and powers for the replies were worded, I only heard here.
The other decrees deal with the Reichskommissariat themselves, and I don' t believe that I need quote them to the Tribunal. They are merely the continuation and consequences of the former decree. I should merely like to refer to the Lammers decree of the 9th of February 1942, which refers to industry and armament. I point out that, due to later wishes stated by other authorities in the Reich, the departments for technique and propaganda which had ex existed in the Eastern Ministry were transferred from there and attached to the corresponding ministries. This was done in away that Minister Speer used transport minister stated that propaganda instructions had to be issued by the Minister for Eastern Territories; whereas, in practice, the matters were left to the Minister for Propaganda.
DR. THOMA: I think you should have to be a little briefer.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, the Tribunal hopes you will. the Police Leader and the SS, in addition to that, your relationship to the general plenipotentiary for labor. What was the channel of subordination in this connection? Was Sauckel entitled to give you instructions? ved from the Fuehrer are clear-cut; and the Fuehrer Decree of the 21st of March.
THE PRESIDENT: The question was :" Was Sauckel entitled to give you instructions?" You began to tell us about the Four Year Plan. I am sure you can answer that question directly.
A (Continuing) The general plenipotentiary for the employment of labor had the right to give instructions to all authorities in the Reich, and that included the Minister for the occupied Eastern territories.
Q That's enough. Were you entitled to tell the Reich Commissioner Koch that the quotas of laborers which were required could no longer be fulfilled, yes or no?
A I couldn't do that as easily as that since the plenipotentiary for labor had been given very definite quotas by the Fuehrer, and when these quotas appeared too large to me -- and that was always the case -- I would approach the general plenipotentiary; and his representatives and have conferences together with the representatives of the Eastern Military Ministry so as to reduce the figures to a bearable size; and the reduction of these quotas did, in fact, succeed during many such conferences.
In spite of that, however, the quotas were very high indeed.
MR. DODD: This defendant continues to make a speech. The question was very simple. He was asked whether he was entitled to tell the Reich Commissioner Koch that the quotas of laborers which were required could not be filled. He has now had three minutes, and I'm sure that he will take 30 minutes if he's allowed to go on. He should be kept to all elements, surrounding that question. BY DR. THOMA:
Q Witness, I must emphasize Mr. Dodd's suggestion. I have asked you whether you were entitled to tell the Reich Commissioner Koch that the quotas of laborers which were required could not be filled. Will you please answer yes or no? his rights and his powers? Yes or no? Labor and the document has been presented in court. It is dated December 1942, and in that letter, it was my duty to draw his attention to a number of events and I requested him urgently to do what he could so that these events which had occurred would cease. the strength of the available documents. They are documents which have been presented by the United States. 016-PS, 017-PS, 018-PS, 015-PS, 014-PS, 204-PS, 265-PS, and 031-PS. And I think you can be brief about all these documents since you are talking about your own affairs.
THE PRESIDENT: Are they in the document book?
DR. THOMA: They are in the USA document book. The special document book Rosenberg. The document 016-PS is contained therein.
THE WITNESS: It is a letter from the General Plenipotentiary dated the 24th of April, and addressed to me, in which he states his program. It has been referred to by the Prosecution repeatedly, and I would like to refer you to two points which refer to it.
Laborers verbally:
"To us Germans, it has always been a matter of course that as far as the beaten enemy is concerned, who has been our hardest and toughest opponent but who has been captured, that we must refrain from any cruelty and unnecessary difficulties. We must treat them correctly and humanly, even if we must expect from him a reasonable output."
And then it says, on page 13, in paragraph 5:
"For the Russian campaign too, and for that reason, there must be the greatest care that the principles of German cleanliness, orderliness, and hygiene are observed."
That, as far as I was concerned, was the decisive point. And this principle of the German plan was agreed to by me. And from that agreement arises my letter 018-PS, dated the 21st of December 1942. my agreement to the solution of the Eastern workers problem and I state that we, Sauckel and myself, observe the German principles. That is in reference to the points of the program which have been quoted. occurred which caused me to draw his attention to wrongful methods. at the Eastern Ministry certain sick barracks and camps which were to be installed for sick Eastern workers for their rehabilitation before returning to their own country had not lived up to the expected conditions and that the Eastern Ministry did, in turn, turn to the Reich Commissioner in Eastern Territories. Eastern occupied territories were concerned, I had requested, with all emphasis, that any actions should be excluded in recruiting the quotas which would have serious results and consequences which might some day be held against myself and other officials. In order to achieve this end and to bring into agreement the peculiarities of the Eastern territories.
I have empowered the Reich Commissioner for the Ukraine, insofar as necessary, to make use of his rights and to see to it that methods which run contrary to the interest of the conduct of the war and war economy in the occupied East be abolished. methods were discontinued the workers demands could not be supplied? at the beginning, when the problem came into play concerning rather large numbers of recruits from the country, that a legal basis existed and that the Reich Commissioner had further provisions from that light. Prosecution, 054-PS? That's a criticism regarding conditions which have been reported by officers of the Ministry of Eastern Affairs, by the Army Group South, and which reached me.
It is very severe criticism and I shall re-
fer to page 1 of the letter where it says, that with few exceptions, the Ukrainians in the Reich are working on their own in handicraft, farms, in agriculture, or as household employees, and that they are very satisfied with their conditions, but they complain about the type of shelter they have in collective camps."
This reports the attempt to exert an influence in Germany, it's where I, the Eastern Minister, could not normally give any instructions and there was the attemp to comply with the points raised during that time regarding workers in Eastern territories. provements of the situation in which the members of the families of the workers found themselves and the Ministry of Eastern Affairs is asked to deal with these matters speedily. It refers to a question of pay, a question of taxes, but I don't think I need make a detailed statement. All these questions will be referred to by the General Plenipotentiary for labor. He merely referred these reports to me and I was active in trying to improve the situation. I should like to have, in this situation, a working agreement between us according to which Eastern workers who were returning to their homes were to receive an allotment of land so that they did not suffer any disadvantage over those who had remained in their own home land. which I need not refer in detail and to which I am merely allowing myself to draw to the attention of the Tribunal. Ukraine in which he informs us of the fact that the general plan of labor prisoners, and through his travels in Eastern territories, had pointed out the serious situation in the labor and that he had transmitted and carried out the orders from the Fuehrer. Also, that these quotas must be placed at the disposal of the Reich Commissioner and that he had no choice but to call on certain workers even by means of the support of the police or the local authorities which had been appointed.
great importance since the prosecution has stated, with reference to that document, that I am accused of having collaborated in the planning and carrying out of the biological weakening of the Eastern peoples. And reference is made to my agreement, which is supposed to be stated at the end of this document. I must ask the Tribunal to take cognizance of the true situation, and that I may inform them of it. Eastern occupied territories, with reference to this problem--and after he had once turned down the suggestion that youthful persons should be transferred to the Reich-- would once more state his opinion and refer to special conditions and prerequisites. In the actual record it states that Army Group Center had the intention, considering that a large number of youthful persons were already working there, and because they were not being taken care of, of returning these youths and taking care of them in a proper manner. that this action might have political repercussions and that it would be considered as the kidnapping of children. He, therefore, wanted the action to be considerably limited for those reasons. that action and help carry it out, then the Army Group Center--which, of course, was in no way subordinate to the Eastern Minister -- would carry out the action on their own. particularly because, in their opinion -- and I am quoting -- "the guarantee for a correct political and permanent treatment would thus be assured. The Army Group would like to see this action carried out under the easiest possible conditions. These children should, if possible, be accommodated in villages, in groups, or accommodated in small camps. Later on, from there, they were to be placed at the disposal of handicraft and business concerns."
Then, later on, it states: "In the event of a reoccupation of the territory, the Eastern Ministry can then return theseyouths, who would then cooperate with their parents in the reconstruction of that territory, which would surely be a positive political factor."
At the end it states, "Under these conditions the Minister for Eastern Affairs has agreed to take care of these youths." I agreed, because I was conscious of the fact that I was, wherever possible, going to be able to use the Youth Department of the Eastern Ministry, which would, in turn, guarantee the greatest possible care for those children.
a large works at Dessau, where 400,000 youthful workers were employed, and where a separate children's camp was in existence, under the care of White Ruthenian mothers. I could ascertain that these youthful workers were wearing the best possible clothes, that they were being taught mathematics and languages by Russian teachers, and that the children's camp had a kindergarten which was looked after by Russian welfare workers, who, in turn, were looked after by the Hitler Youth. In the course of the day, the woman who was looking after that camp was thanking me, with tears in her eyes, for this humane care which was being accorded to them. this record. This city, as I said, was Dessau, and not Odessa, as is stated in the record. I never visited Odessa in all my life.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, we have finished the labor problem, and I am coming to the Reich Commissariat; perhaps this would be a suitable moment to go into recess.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you indicate to the Tribunal how long you are likely to be with your examination?
DR. THOMA: I am of the opinion that we may be through by 4:30.
THE PRESIDENT: Four-thirty this afternoon?
DR. THOMA: Three-thirty. However, the defendant Rosenberg is shaking his head, and therefore I can't tell you for certain.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Court will recess until five minutes past two.
(A recess was taken until 1405 hours.)
Official transcript of the International Military Tribunal in in the matter of:
The United States of America, the French Ireland, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,*---*
DR. THOMA: I wish to submit to the Court the first document, a secret order by Rosenberg as far as the dignified treatment of the inhabitants of the Ukraine is concerned. That is dated the 14th of December 1942. BY DR. THOMA: together with Document 1065, the views you expressed in connection with that. it was the result of a conversation with various central agencies of the Reid Government who were interested in eastern problems and questions. In this document there are contained principles and directives of the Eastern Ministry itself, also discussions and agreements with technical departments involved, such as the Post Office Department, Police Department, Communications and Traffic, so that at least in the East a certain unified civil administration could be documented and established. For the reasons which I have already enumerate it was not possible. police, which was not granted, I would like to point out and refer to what I said in the beginning as far as administration in the eastern occupied territories is concerned, beginning with June of 1941. among the seven points which are stressed aspecially, the third point was the accomodation and supply of the population and that point was expressely mentioned. Then, further, it is again explained in the document that this accomodation and supplying of the population with foodstuffs and so forth, is to be especially taken notice of, that medical supplies and food supplies are to be given special consideration. However, except for that I do not wish to stay with this document.
the Eastern Minister to the Reichkommissars, and it was the only document which was found. It is an instruction dated the 14th of December 1942, in which again the human and political position and attitude is particularly stressed. As far as the treatment of the civilian population is concerned, in the beginning it is emphasized, and I would like to mention it, that German behaviour would never give the impression that the Ukraine could have no hope for the future, that directives by German departments and offices would have to be executed but would have to be given great thought. It said further that the peoples of the East have always seen in Germany the bearer and the exponent of a legal order, which in some cases may be a trifle harsh, out which is not an expression of arbitrary decision; that possibly matters might warrant harshness, but they would be investigated, examined, and justice would reign; the impression of arbitrary deportment was not to be considered.
The article further says:
"Elementary schools with a four-year term should be kept open completely, followed by trade schools training for practical life. The German administration needs men for veterinary science, trade, farming and geological research who cannot be supplied from the German population. For that purpose the Ukrainian youth can be taken off the streets and indoctrinated to the fact that they have to contribute to the reconstruction of their country. Thereby, it would be inadmissible for German offices to confront the population with scornful remarks. Such an attitude is not worthy of a German.
"Germany became, by means of its armed forces, master over wide regions of the East. Every German who has been sent by her has therefore to be conscious of the obligation which he takes upon himself in the Fast as representative of the German Reich and of the German people. By appropriate bearing and deeds one becomes master, but not by obtrusive, shocking manners. One does not lead people by insolent talk, and one does not gain authority by exhibiting contempt for others." rective, but I do not wish to take up the time of the Tribunal with these details. I was especially interested in showing in what sense I wanted to make known the position and the view of the civil administration, and in order that this directive might not remain on the desks of the offices of the several governments, I decreed that it was to be read in all offices.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, now I would like to turn to the special accusation of the Soviet Delegation and to bring in the special document as applied to the Special Purpose Staff of Rosenberg. Therefore, I will submit to the defendant Documents USSR-375, 161-PS, 076-PS, USSR-375, USSR-7, 39, 41, 49, and 51, and finally 81. All of these are USSR documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Are any of these in your document books?
DR. THOMA: The documents of the USSR, the ones I mentione last, I do not have in a special document book.
I ascertained this morning whether these documents had been submitted to the Tribunal, starting with 39 and so on.
THE PRESIDENT: I thought perhaps you were referring to them now. They aren't in your books.
DR. THOMA: No. 161 is in Document Book 3, page 34. Nothing else is found in the document books.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
A (Continuing) The document 161-PS treats instructions for the bringing back of certain archives from Estonia and Lithuania. The Soviet Prosecution, therefore, contended that this was a plundering of cultural objects in these countries. I would like to state that the instructions which I read from Document 1065 stated in an unequivocal manner that these objects were to remain in the country. That took place. is the 23rd of August 1944. When the battles were raging in this territory and when the cultural objects and archives were to be safeguarded and secured to protect them from combat activities, it was said that the archives mentioned here were to be safeguarded on Estonian country estates. That is, they were to remain in the country but were to be safeguarded against combat activity.
As far as I know, later, some of these archives were brought to Germanyl and I believe they were secured in Schloss Hoechstedt in Bavaria.
plundering of the library at Minsk. We are concerned with instructions of the rear army region, and a report which was given to the local authorities. From this report we can see that a number of destructions had taken place in some libraries. However, that was as a result of troops having been quartered there, because the City of Minsk had been destroyed and the billeting facilities were overburdened.
Then, under No. 1, and again under other paragraphs, it is shown that posters were put up, and that these things which were confiscated would not be touched after that. Then, it is added that any further taking away would have to be considered as plundering. are concerned with the fact that the most valuable part came from the library of a Polish nobleman, which the Soviet authorities had taken to the occupied territory and had incorporated into the library there. However, that was long before the all-purpose staff, or other German departments, were active in that area. which have been submitted to the High Tribunal and which deal with the taking back of cultural objects from the Ukraine. The date on these documents -- that is the year 1948 -- shows that these cultural treasures had remained, as had been ordered in the countries. Then, when combat activity made it necessary, as document 035-PS says, at page 3.5, the corresponding infantry regiment was interested in the evacuation of valuable things since the armed forces could not protect this area sufficiently and bombardment by artillery was to be counted on.
DR. THOMA: I would like to submit this document under Ro./37.
A (Continuing) Then the infantry dividion was to give all possible protection.
DR. THOMA: May I have the document again? I would like to submit it to the High Tribunal.
A (Continuing) Therefore, the evacuation took place practically under artillery bombardment, and cultural objects which had come from Kharkov were transported away to the German Reich at that time during actual combat.
Soviet Prosecution has presented regarding Estonia and Lithuania. In that connection I would like to submit just a few concrete details. the occupation of the Estonian Soviet Republic, the Germans tried to cut off the independence of the Estonian people and tried to establish a new order as to culture, art, and science. They intended to exterminate the civilian population, or to deport these people for forced labor to Germany, and to pillage estates and villages. was an independence for 20 years, beginning with the attack in 1919 by the Soviet Union, and this independence was terminated by the marching in of the Soviet Union in 1940.
GENERAL RUDENKO: Mr. President, it seems to me that the document which is now being looked over by, the defendant Rosenberg naturally gives him a basis for replying to the concrete accusations while he was Minister of the Eastern Regions. However, I do think that that which the defendant Rosenberg has just now begun to mention consists of straight fascist propaganda and has very little connection with the question discussed, or with the accusations.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, if the defendant makes a few introductory remarks, I ask that he be not interrupted right away. We will deal with actual facts and citations.
A (Continuing) So far as point 2 is concerned, I would like to re-
mark-
THE PRESIDENT: Is this document that he is dealing with a document that he wrote himself or had anything to do with? I haven't got the document before me.
DR. THOMA: The document is submitted by the USSR, and it accuses Rosenberg of having destroyed these territories. Therefore, I think he is entitled to state his position.
THE PRESIDENT: But when you say "his position", can't he say what he did in connection with the document or the subject of the document? I mean, when you say "state his position", it is such a very wide phrase, it may mean almost anything. If you ask him what he did in connection with the subject of the document it is different, but it is more concrete and special. BY DR. THOMA: this respect? and science in Estonia. I must say that one of the first directives of the Eastern Ministry was to establish, in these three countri es, administrations of their own people, and, so far as German occupation troops were concerned, to have then serve as a supervisory measure. The limitations were proscribed by war, and, of course, they were given accordingly. They applied to spheres of armament, to police security, and they applied to political positions in general. states. Their art and their theaters were active all through these years of occupation. The university at Dorpat worked in most of its departments, and the same is true of Riga. The judicial sovereignty of these countries was subordinated only to the local directorates, as they were called, and all departments and offices were established. The entire school system remained untouched, commissars who were competent there did everything to maintain the autonomy and the independence of the people, even though they repeatedly critized the German administration.
However, in the course of war, we could not, of course, recognize a complete state sovereignty. referring back to 1942, that anyone who committed these demeanors--that is, of anyone refused to work, or if some employee came to work intoxicated, measures were taken by the directorates, and directives were issued to this effect. administration was not entirely pleased, Reich Commissar Lohse at once recalled it, and we asked the Reich Minister of Communications to have this impossible official removed. This, of course, took place immediately and he was called home. The matter of his having been called homo was to be made known through the, press, although I cannot say whether it actually did happen. the Germans had destroyed historical buildings, that they had searched the universities and had destroyed a university which had a grand history of more than three hundred years, and which was one of the oldest seats of higher learning.
I would like to add that as far as the buildings are concerned they date to the Seventeenth and other centuries.
They were constructed by Germans exclusively, and a German group would not be interested in destroying arbitrarily the houses which their own people had built.
And Point 2: This university, which is three hundred years old, Dorpat, was a German university.
THE PRESIDENT: That is quite irrelevant. The question is whether it was destroyed.
A (continuing) In the year 1942 I was at the city of Dorpat. A large part of the city had been destroyed through combat activity, but the university buildings were still standing. At that time I had the opportunity to learn that the all-purpose staff had confiscated ten to twelve thousand volumes in the Ukraine and restored them to their rightful owners at Dorpat, and I consider it out of the question that an arbitrary destruction of this old German university could have taken place on the part of German troops. I can assume only that it was the result of actual combat, if this destruction actually took place. define my position. It deals with many shootings of a police nature and it deals with natters of combat activity, and of course I cannot make any statements, since it goes back to the time of retreat. of the extraordinary state commission. I would like to say only that headquarters was not at Riga, but he had his permanent seat at Berlin. Lithuania; they took the property of the Lithuanian peasants for their own and exterminated men, women and children. the German barons of former times. The German agrarian administration might have done this, which according to my opinion was a matter of legislation. In young Lithuanian and Estonian Republics some of this old property was expropriated. It could have been returned to the German population; but I signed a law in March of either 1942 or 1943 -- that was the "Reprivatisierungs Gesetz" -- that the Estonian peasants who had received German property at that time could keep this property, and they received it with solemn ceremony.
of this property, and that is why this collectivization was made retroactive and the former proprietors as of 1919 were reinstated to their property. it is stated that through more than three years duration the Germans made it their task, as far as factories, homes, museums, etc., are concerned, to destroy all of these buildings. I myself was in a Lithuanian museum, saw a great Lithuanian exhibition of art, attended the performances of the Lithuanian theater. All of this was carried on in the Lithuanian language, with just a few German artists. Factories were not destroyed; instead they were enlarged through the bringing in of German machinery. of their own property was to be dealt with. But in any event there was never any destruction. There was an increase in productive capacity. already discussed that when I spoke about document 035. cannot take any position to the fact that police stations and security measures are concerned. I would like to point out that the local authorities looked into the matter that 40,000 Estonians and more than 40,000 Lithuanians were deported to Soviet Russia after Soviet Russia occupied these countries, and that a large number of Lithuanians and Estonians volunteered to fight the Red Army, and that on the return march hundreds of thousands of Estonians and Lithuanians asked to be taken into the Reich and many of them actually did come into the Reich. That on the part of the German authorities 170,000 Lithuanians were to have been shot, that seems to be improbable to the highest degree. actual combat--I am not able to define my position any further. commission about Lithuania. On page 1, paragraph 2, it states that Rosenberg tried to Germanize the people, to exterminate their own national culture.
Lithuania became a part of the German eastern provinces.
In Lithuania the question of peasants was treated They were to be recolonized in a concentrated manner as far as possible; and I cannot agree with anything else that is down here.
As far as the at all.
I know that collaborators of my office were very much concerned in were written and that much reform was carried on in these countries.
I cannot the city was being bombarded by Soviet artillery.
That, of course, many build ings were destroyed in that activity, I can see that; but I am not able to Now I am passing to document USSR 51.
In time note of the Commissar cultural values of these three Baltic states is mentioned.
I would like to and pillaged.
I would like to reiterate the expositions that I have already made.
their rage, as fax' as the three Baltic countries are concerned, destroyed monu ments, literature, schools.
But that is not in accordance with the facts.
The note of the commissar of the 27/4/42, which has been read here the pillaging of the soil had taken place.
I would again like to refer to the laws of the new agrarian order (the laws which were to strengthen the agrarian movement) -- Leica (?), who has been granted as a witness, can give submitted, I cannot check them in detail.