Transcript for IMT: Trial of Major War Criminals

A I told then how the had to attack during the fight and told them how to behave toward the Russian population and to Russian prisoners.

QWhat were the instructions you gave your company commanders?

AI briefly gave them instructions that every prisoner of war was to be treated in the same way he wanted to be treated himself if he became prisoner.

QYou said that specifically?

AYes, that was ordered.

QHow did the troops behave when they marched in?

AWe fought practically all the way to Kiev, and were marching, and had very little contact with the civilian population

QDuring the advance in Russia did you note considerable instruction?

APartly, yes; in part, villages had been destroyed, and small towns had been destroyed.

QWhat about railways?

ARailways, yes.

QIndustrial works?

AYes, I saw some of that outside of Leningrad.

QWas the order employed in your sector according to whichSoviet Russian Commissars were to be shot?

AWe had nothing to do with that. Prisoners of war that we took were sent back to the Division right away. We, the commanders -- regimental and battalion commanders -- had nothing to do with it; nor had we any time to answer it.

QI have asked you whether the order was used in your sector.

AI don't know anything about it.

QHave you ever received the order to attack Jewish people in Russia?

QDid your troops ill-treat civilian persons or troops, or shoot them?

ANo, there was a special order for the maintenance of discipline stating that this was not permissible.

Q Was there any plundering?

ANo, this was specifically forbidden.

QDid any plundering happen?

ANot with my troops.

QDid members of your unit commit rape?

ANo; in no case known to me.

QWas the civilian population compelled to clear the houses occupied by troops?

ANo, there was merely an order saying those houses had to be cleared which contained officers. Other houses did not have to be evacuated, and as a rule the system was that whenever I was billeted on someone I would sleep in the same room with the people who lived there.

QHave you experienced destruction whichwasn't due to military necessity

QHave you frequently on any occasion seen the civilian population fed on army rations?

AThere was an order saying that all food that was surplus in the regiment should be given to the population at mid-day or in the evening, whenever we did have contact with them.

QAnd then one last question: Would you consider it possible that German soliders could invite Russian children to a coffee party and given them poisoned cake, to poison and kill them?

DR. LATERNSER:I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT:You aren't suggesting, are you, that this witness is on of the High Command?

DR. LATERNSER:No, no.

THE PRESIDENT:Are you suggesting that you are to be entitled to examine every witness who has any military rank, on behalf of the High Command.

DR. LATERNSER:Mr. President, as far as I understood it, it has been the rule that any evidence, including witnesses, which is brought in here could be examined by everyone of Defense Counsel, and I have adhered to that rule up to now, and I felt that it must apply to any future questions put to the witness.

THE PRESIDENT:I asked you simply, are you suggesting that you are entitled to ask questions on behalf of the High Command of every person called here who has any military rank?

DR. LATERNSER:Yes, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT:Well, it seems to me that would be highly cumulative. We shall have evidence on behalf of the High Command from possibly thirty or forty witnesses. And when you say that it has been allowed in the past, every other member of the Defense has been confined to evidence so far as possible which is not cumulative, That was the reason I interrupted you, because it seemed to me if you are going to do that, claim the right to ask questions of everybody who has military rank -- and you have done it up to now -- the evidence is going to be extremely cumulative on your part.

(A brief pause.)

You see, Dr. Laternser, the questions you have been putting to this witness are questions directed to show that the regimental officers and soldiers in the GermanArmy behaved properly and could not be expectedto behave improperly. That doesn't seem to be really relevant to the questions of whether the High Command is or is not a criminal organization. And in any event -- in my opinion, at any rate -- it is cumulative if you do that.

DR. LATERNSER:Mr. President, the Russian Prosecution particularly have produced so much material seeking to implicate the Armed Forces that the Russian Prosecution themselves have decided that corresponding orders came from above; in other words, whether any came from persons in the OKW. And I was going to ask the witness to ascertain whether any effects on a lower level had occurred. The statement that he made proved that it wasn't the case.

THE PRESIDENT: Anyhow, Dr. Laternser, we have your position now, and the 10th Apl-M-PJA-10-1 Tribunal will consider how far you may be allowed to do it in the future.

DR. LATERNSER:Very well, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT:Now, Colonel Pokrovsky. BY COLONEL POKROVSKY:

QIt seems to me witness, that on 28 December 1945 you were interrogated by a representative of the Soviet Prosecution; is that not so?

AYes, sir.

QYou gave correct and accurate testimony, did you not?

QWould you please confirm some of your answers to the questions that were asked you then? I will help you to recollect the questions that were asked you.

QIn your section there were, as you stated, six different sub-div isions or departments?

QYou said that the first subdivision of the section--I mean your section dealing with prisoners of war which you headed from 1 March 1943 up to 31 March 1944. You headed the Prisoner of War Department, did you not?

QNow, the first subdivision of the Prisoner of War Department was concerned with the treatment of prisoners of war, specifically, the questions of punishments, legal supervision, and so on. It was this subdivision that was in constant touch with Counter-Intelligence Corps on the subject of theprisoners of war, is that correct?

AWith Counter-Intelligence, yes.

QIn connection with the reply which you gave to that question, I would like you to state to the Tribunal right now just how much or what did you know about the way the Soviet prisoners of war were treated, both in the camps themsolves and when the prisoners of war were being transferred from one camp to another. What happened to them, both in the camps and on route?

ARegarding the treatment, I can say that as far as I know and until 1942, Russian prisoners of war were treated on the basis of political considerations. After 1942, that was changed, and beginning in 1943, as long as I was in the OKW, prisoners of war were treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention.

That is to say, in all points their treatment was coordinated with that of other prisoners of war; their rations were the same as those of the others, and their employment and so on and so forth, and their treatment was in every detail in accordance with that treatment given to other prisoners of war, with certain exceptions.

QIf I am not mistaken, the fourth subdivision of the department was especially concerned with the questions of feeding and clothing the prisoners of war. Is that correct?

AThe task of Group IV was matters of administration. It had to deal with instructions and directives regarding rations, in contact with the Minister for Food. It also had to deal with clothing.

QIf I understand you correctly, you have stated that until you took charge of the Prisoner of War Department, the knowledge that you received about the soviet prisoners of war was to the effect that the Soviet prisoners of war were not treated according to international law. Is that correct?

ANo, I said that prisoners of war during the first year were treated on the basis of political considerations, which originated not from the OKW but from Hitler personally.

QIn other words, just what do you want to say about that?

AI want to say that they were not treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention until 1942.

QIn other words, not according to international law, right?

AI can not give you any detailed information on that, since at that time I was still serving at the front and did not know details regarding the instructions.

QVery well. Tell me, was there in the OKW a special group or section which dealt exclusively with transportation matters concerning the prisoners of war?

AThe OKW had a department which was ordering transports of prisoners. The transports themselves were not a matter for OKW. They were a matter for the individual camp commanders.

QAre you aware under what conditions the transference of the prisoners of war from one camp to another took place?

A Transports of prisoners of war were ordered by the OKW. The execution of such transports of prisoners was a matter fir the camp commandants, who had their corresponding orders from the commanders of prisoners of war in army districts.

The actual transport was not a matter for the OKW.

QThe question I asked is whether you are aware or were informed under what conditions the transfer from one point to another took place. Do you know that thousands of prisoners died on route from cold and hunger? Are you aware of that? Do you know anything about it at all?

AThe transports during which prisoners of war died can only be traced back to the earlier years when I was not yet in the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces. As long as I was there, I had no reports on any scale saying that large numbers of them did loose their lives. The orders which the OKW gave regarding transports of prisoners of war were clear-cut, and the commanders of th camps were responsible for the orderly way in which these transports had to take place.

QYou have just confirmed that you were aware of the fact that on route many prisoners of war died. Now I would like you to look at a document, Number 10021 USSR. It consists of the minutes of the meeting of the Ministry of Economics of the Reich. It has not been submitted to the Tribunal so far. It is date 29 February 1942. The minutes were taken of the meeting which took place at ten o'clock in the morning. The report given by Dr. Mansfeld, General Plenipotentiary for the use of manpower was heard. The three lines which particularly interest me are underlined with red pencil on the copy that is before you right now. It states there:

"The utilization of the Soviet prisoners of war is particularly important today. It is useless to transfer manpower in open or unheated boxcars, for in this case all we unload is corpses."

Have you found this place?

QHave you heard anything about transports of this kind, when in place of a train of living persons, corpses were unloaded? Have you heard anything about that until you took charge of your particular job in the OKW? Has anyone reported to you about these things?

A I have heard nothing about these transports, since they did not come into the juridiction of the OKW, as is clear from the document.

This was a matter for the operational sectors. The juridiction of the OKW was in the main the German Reich and the original states. The OKW had the right to decide about the prisoners of war by the army and it was reported, "You are going to get that and that figure," and they came into our camps. What happened in the operational territory to those people, that we could not control in detail.

Apart from that, this story goes back to 1942, a time when I was still serving at the front.

Lock at the left side of the document at the top. There is a note there that this comes from the Ministry of Economics, does it not?

Left, at the top, under the number. Do you see it?

AMy department had no contact with the armament department.

QVery well. Does it not seem to you that this document confirms the fact that OKW knew about it?

No more questions, Mr. President, to this witness.

THE PRESIDENT:Colonel Pokrovsky, as this document has not been put in before, should you not read the first paragraph of it? It seems to contain material evidence.

COLONEL POKROVSKY:The first paragraph of the document, the way it appears in the Russian translation at least, is like this:

"Minutes of the representative of the Ministerial Director, Dr. Mansfield, Deputy General for the mobilization of labor on general questions regarding the mobilization of manpower, dated 19 February 1942. 10:00 A.M."

The meeting took place in the Reich Chamber of Economy. Present were, from the Ministry of the Military Economy, and from the OKW, Dr. Grotius.

"The present difficulties in the question of the utilization of manpower would not have arisen if we had decided in time to utilize the Russian Prisoners-of-War on a larger scale."

This is the first paragraph, Mr. President. Further down there are three lines which interest me in this document.

"There are over 3,000,000 Russians in ourpower, at present there are only 1,000,000 and 1/10 of a million left. Only, in November 1941 and January 1942, 1/2 million Russians died."

Have I read sufficiently, Mr. President, or do you want me to read further?

THE PRESIDENT:No, go on.

COLONELPOKROVSKY: "It will be hardly possible to increase the number of employed Russians today. There are 400,000 working today. However, the typhus cases are increasing. If they do decrease there may be a possibility to employ from 100,000 to 150,000 more. Compared to that, the employment of Russian civilians is gaining constantly greater importance.

There are, all together today, between 600,000 and 550,000 Russian civilians among whom 300,000 are skilled industrial workers and 300,000 and somewhat over could be used for agriculture.

The employment of these Russians is a question of transportation."

THE PRESIDENT:That's what you read before.

COLONEL POKROVSKY:That is right. I would like to direct your attention once more to the fact that there isstamped on the document, the Ministry of the Military Economics and the Ministry of Industrial ...

THE PRESIDENT:Colonel Pokrovsky, that doesnot appear in our translation, but I guess you are right. At least, I don't see it. Could you let us see your document?

COLONEL POKROVSKY:The original will be shown to you immediately. Left, at the top, in the left corner, where the abbreviations are stamped.

THE PRESIDENT:These letters and numbers? These letters and numbers indicate OKW although they don't say it?

COLONEL POKROVSKY:That's right.

THE PRESIDENT:Why do you say that? I mean, the actual letters which are there look to me like Ru III Z ST Az i k 32/310 Wi Ru Amt/Ru III Z St?

COLONEL POKROVSKY:In deciphering these abbreviations, which was done by our American colleague, the full significance of each word was given to me. The data which the American Prosecution has belongs to the OKW and those are the usual abbreviations for the Ministry of Military Economics.

THE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal would like to ask you to ask the witness whether he knows anything about the man mentioned at the right, further down at the right. Dr. Gotha. Never mind I will ask him. QUESTIONS BY THE PRESIDENT:

QDo you know who Dr. Gotha was and whether he was employed in the OKW or in the Army?

ANo, I have never heard the name Dr. Gotha. I never had any dealings or contacts with him.

QHave you got the document in front of you?

ANo, I haven't get it any longer.

QWell, just look at the letters which are in the front of Dr. Gotha's name. Do they indicate that he was a member of the OKW?

A I don't know about him. I don't know what that means and the OKW has nothing to do with this whole matter.

QDo you know what the letters on the top left hand side of the document mean? The ones I just read out now?

ARu III you mean?

AThat, I think, is the rearmament department No. 3. I assume that's what it probably means.

QWell, that would be in connection with the OKW, would it not?

AI am afraid I am not informed since I have not had any contact with the armament department. The OKW, at least my department in it, had dealings only with the General plenipotentiaries for labor and the Ministry of Speer. Just how it was divided is unknown to me.

QDid you know of or did you know Dr. Mansfeld?

AI didn't understand the question.

QDid you know Dr. Mansfeld?

ANo I didn't know him and I have never heard his name.

COLONEL POKROVSKY:The question of Dr. Mansfeld, about Dr. Mansfeld, could be asked probably, of Mr. Sauckel.

THE PRESIDENT:Very well. Technically speaking the Tribunal cannot accept from you that there letters at the too mean the OKW. It may be perfectly true, but you cannot give evidence about it. So you can prove it some other way possibly.

COLONEL POKROVSKY:It was reported to the Tribunal already--the scheme of the organization and the fact that the American Prosecution has deciphered these abbreviations. For that reason, it seems to me that the question might be put to the witness as to the fact that the document does concern the OKW. However, it would be quite easy to show or to submit hear the organizational scheme of the OKW, or the Ministry.

THE PRESIDENT:Then the witness can retire.

The Tribunal will adjourn now and they will want the other witness, Mr. Wielen at 2.00 o'clock (The Tribunal adjourned until 1400 hours). Official transcript of the International Military Tribunal in the matter of The United States of America, the French Republic, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics against Herman Wilhelm Goering et al, Defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany on 10 April 1946, 1400-1700, Lord Justice Lawrence presiding.

SIR DAVIDMAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I don't know if Your Lordship wanted the words for these short collections of letters. I have them if Your Lordship wants them; that is, on the last document, 1201-PS.

THE PRESIDENT:Thank you very much,yes.

SIR DAVIDMAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I think what your Lordship locked at was where the name Dr. Grotius appears.

THE PRESIDENT:Yes.

SIR DAVIDMAXWELL-FYFE: The "WI RU Amt" is the Wirtschaft und Ruestungs Amt, the Economic and armaments Office, whichis, your Lordship will remember, General Thomas' department of the OKW.

My Lord, the other letters, "KVH" are Kriegsverwaltungsrat, War administration Counsellor.

I don't think there can be any dispute that the document comes from General Thomas' department of the OKW.

THE PRESIDENT:Yes.

DR.IATERNSER (Counsel for the General Staff and the OKW): Mr. President let me say something in this regard. I should like to state certain scruples It must be ascertained from whence comes the heading of the first section. The heading of the second section, which Sir David just referred to, begins with the letters "AZ", which means "files". In other words, it is from the files of the Economic and Armaments Office. However, it does not explain the source of this document, We must find out how the heading of the first part is to be understood.

THE PRESIDENT:Well, do you understand it?

DR. LATERNSER:Yes, I understand it.

THE PRESIDENT:Very well.

DR. LATERNSER:The author of this writing can only be found if we find out what the first line means, because the second line is only the document archive number, which is to be seen from the first two letters, "AZ", which means the German Aktenzeichen.

This seems to refer to something from the Economic and Armaments Office.

That is all I have to say.

SIR DAVIDMAXWELL-FYFE: I don't know if Your Lordship wants any further information. It seems to me quite clear. That is, it is from the files of the department I mentioned, the Wirtschaft und Ruestungs Amt.

THE PRESIDENT:Yes. You mean, it goes back to the same letters.

SIR DAVIDMAXWELL-FYFE: Yes,

THE PRESIDENT:It has just been explained to me that what Dr. Laternser was saying is that the letters "AZ I K 32/510" only mean that it is from the file of that department.

SIR DAVIDMAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, My Lord. Then, to find the office whose file it is, you get "WI RU" again, which is the Wirtschaft und Ruestungs Amt, which is the Economy and Armaments Office, and it is the Armaments Department No. 3.

THE PRESIDENT:Yes.

Sir David, the Tribunal thought that the best way would be to put this witness in the box and then to leave him to counsel for the prosecution and the defense.

SIR DAVIDMAXWELL-FYFE: If My Lordship pleases, my friend Mr. Roberts is going to deal with this witness, and he has selected the passages quite shortly from the statements which will be read.

THE PRESIDENT:Very well, ___________

MAXWIELEN, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:

QWill you stand up please?

QWhat is your name?

AMax Wielen.

QYour full name?

AMax Wielen.

QWill you repeat this oath after me?

I swear by God, the almighty and omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.

(The witness repeated the path.)

THE PRESIDENT:You may sit down.

EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBERTS:

QMax Wielen, you made two statements in London, through Colonel Hinchley Cook.

QAnd are these photostats of the two statements--the first one dated the 26th of August, 1945, and the second dated the 6th of September 1945?

(The documents were submitted to the witness)

Are those the photographs of your true statements? Do you identify them? Do you see your signature at the end of each?

QAnd in those two statements did you tell the truth?

AYes, I told the truth.

MR. ROBERTS:My Lord, perhaps I should now read some passages so that they may go into the record.

QIf you take the first statement first, the statement begins with your name and the positions which you held in the SS and in the Criminal Police. That is right, is it not?

QWell now, will you just follow the beginning of this statement?

AOf which declaration, the 6th of September, or the first one?

QThe first.

AThe first one? I see.

QJust follow it while I read. I will read the whole of the first page "Oberregierungsrat und Kriminalrat, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer" --I don't want you to read it, just listen to me--" formerly officer in charge of the Criminal Police at Breslau.

"I have to stat, in answer to the question whether I know anything about the shooting of English prisoners of war, air force officers of the prison camp at Sagan, that I have knowledge of this matter and wish to make the following statement without reserve.

"Shooting took place on the express personal orders of the former Fuehrer, was carried out by the Gestapo. The officer in charge of the Staatspolizeileitstelle at Breslau was Oberregierungsrat Dr. Scharwinkel. His immediate superiors were Chief of the SIPO, Dr. Kaltenbrunner; Chief of Amt IV, SS Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, I am unable to give the names of the officers in charge of other districts of the Gestapo, who carried out shootings in their districts.

"I insert here a small chart showing the organization of the SIPO."

I now go to the bottom of page 2 of the English copy, and it is at the bottom of page 3 in the copy which the witness has in his hands in German:

"During the course of time"--and this is talking about Stalag Luf 3-"99 escape tunnels had been dug. All of them had been discovered by the military. A hundred tunnels, dug in March 1944, proved successful to the extent that 80 officers were able to escape.

"Upon receipt of a telephone message from the camp headquarters to the Criminal Police I gave orders for the Kiregsfahndung, in accordance with the emergency instructions laid down. At Dr. Absalom's suggestion, having regard to the time lag, Grossfahndung was ordered. Moreover, the officer in charge of the Reichskriminal Polizei Amt had to be informed. He approved or confirmed the order for the Grossalarm. Gradually, the search, which was carried out in all parts of Germany, led to the re-arrest of practically all the escaped English officer prisoners, with the exception of three, I believe. Most of them were recaptured while still in Silesia. A few had got as far as Kiel, Strasbourg, and the Algav.

"Then, one day at noon I received a telegraphic instruction from General Nebe to proceed at once to Berlin to be informed of a secret order. When I arrived in Berlin that evening I saw General Nebe in his office. I gave him a short, concise report on the whole matter. He then showed me a teleprint order signed by Dr. Kaltenbrunner, in which it was stated that on the express personal orders of the Fuehrer, over half of the officers escaped from Sagan were to be shot after their recapture. The officer in charge of Department 4, Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, had received corresponding orders and would give instructions to the Staatspolizei, and military office had been informed.

General Nebe himself appeared shocked at this order. He was distressed.

I was afterwards told that for nights on end he had not gone to bed. I too was appalled at the horrible step to be taken and opposed its execution. I said that it was against the laws of war; that it was bound to lead to reprisals against our own officers who were prisoners of war in English camps; and that I absolutely refused to take any responsibility. General Nebe replied that in this particular case I had indeed no responsibility whatever, because the Staatspolizei would act completely independently, and that, after all, the Fuehrer's orders had to be carried out without demur.

"I want to point out that when I first refused I acted on impulse and feeling, well knowing that I could not hope to prevail, in view of the conditions that had recently arisen within the Sipo.

"Nebe then added that I on my part was, of course, under an obligation to preserve absolute secrecy and that I had been shown the original order so that I should not make any difficulties vis-a-vis the Staatspolizei.

"My own duties as regards the transport of some of the prisoners would be transferred to the Staatspolizei. In this connection I want to explai that up to then the bringing back of prisoners to the camp had been the responsibility of the Kripo. Either they had to take them back to the camp themselves or they had to hold them until they were fetched by the camp staffs "In answer to a question I declared that Dr. Schultze was present at the discussion with General Nebe.

He nodded his head in agreement when I raised my objection; otherwise took no part.

"On my return to Breslau I learned from Dr. Schabwinkel that the Gestapo had been duly informed by Gruppenfuehrer Mueller. I was not apprised of the actual instructions. I also don't know whether a similar order was issued to other officers in charge of Staatspolizeileitstellen or whether orders were only given to those in whose areas arrests had been made and executions were to be carried out.

"According to instructions the police in the districts where arrests had been made had to inform the Reichskripo Amt by telegram or telephone that officer prisoners of war had been taken into custody.

The Krip Leitstelle Breslau was also to be informed.

"How this shooting was carried out I do not know, but I presume that after Staatspolizei had collected the officers concerned from the prisons they were shot in some remote spot -- forests and so forth -- with service pistols of the Gestapo.

"In answer to the question whether the officers were possibly beaten to death, I state that I do not believe this, because the Fuehrer's order specifically mentioned shooting.

"The Staatspolizei had, in accordance with instructions received from RSHA, Department 4, described the shooting as if it had occurred in transit. The purpose of se f-defense ought to prevent re-escape. This I afterwards learned from Dr. Schabwinkel.

"Later the Kripo Leitstelle at Breslau received a letter from RSHA, Department 5, which had to be communicated to the camp commandant with the request that its text should be made known to the English officer prisoners of war in order to frighten then. The letter explained that the shooting had occurred for the above-mentioned reason. The text of the letter was communicated to Oberst Lindeiner or one of the camp's staff officers.

"As regards the selection of officers to be shot, a list had been prepared by the camp authorities at the request of Department 5, in which those officers who were regarded as disturbing elements, plotters, and escape leaders had been specifically mentioned. The names were selected either by the commandant or by one of his officers.

"Thereupon the shooting of officers mentioned by name was accordingly ordered by Department 4 and corresponding instructions sent to the Staatspolizei of the district concerned."

I omit the next paragraph and I go to the bottom of the English copy, page 4; at the bottom of page 7 of the witness' copy; Witness, would you turn to page 7, please? You will find the passage marked in pencil at the bottom of page 7. I carefully numbered the pages.

AThere is nothing marked in this.

QIf you turn over the page you will get something which is marked.

A Nothing marked on page 7; something on page 8.

QYou will find something marked at the very bottom of page 7. At any rate; just follow these words -- "to revert to the shooting."

AYes, I have it.

Q "Approximately forty English officers who have not been arrested by the Staatspolizei but the Kripo were meanwhile taken back to camp." When you said that -- of you will just answer the question -- you said approximately forty officers -- you didn't know the actual numbers, did you?

AThe number is not correct. It was not forty. I didn't know at that time.

QThat's right, because it isn't the correct number. I think fifty.

AI made a mistake at that time.

Q "They had come to no harm whatsoever."

AFifteen additional were brought back.

QI must want you to listen, if you will be kind enough.

"I must assume that treatment was perfectly correct. It had been impossible to avoid putting them into police prisons due to the general condition then prevailing.

"I do not know who interrogated the officers in the police prisons. I assume this was done by the local police authorities, as an interrogation must necessarily follow every notification of arrest. I do not know the names of the officials."

ADuring the interrogation.

QYes. "I do not know the names of the officials of the Staatspolizei or the Gemeinde Polizei -- a small local police force who cooperate in this matter. Dr. Absalom will be able to supply the answer to this question."

Go on to the part beginning "the urns", if Your Lordship pleases:

"The urns containing the ashes of the officers who had been shot were transmitted by the Staatspolizei to the Kriminal Polizei. Which crematoria had been used by the Staatspolizei I am unable to say. The urns were handed over to the camp commandant by the order of RSHA for military Funeral. By this means, the return of the urns through the Kripo, the fact that Staatspolizei was connected with the matter was to be camouflaged."

Then I miss the next paragraph. Then I read one sentence, the next line: "I do not know why five officers were interrogated in Berlin."

Then My Lord, I turn to page 6. Witness, would you go to the bottom of your oage 10. Just turn over the page. My Lord, take the middle paragraph. Just two paragraphs out of page 6 in a general way of interest.

"Even before my departure for Berlin criminal commissar Dr Absolam had told me that he had heard in Camp Sagan--he was told this in a very secretive waythat shootings were to take place in order to deter officers. From this may be deduced the fact that the camp will already be informed through military channels of the order to shoot issued by Kaltenbrunner. It would be useful to ascertain what Goering knows about the whole affair, because the Fuehrer must surely have informed him of the order, since it concerned a camp of the Luftwaffe."

My Lord, that is all of that statement. I am anxious to avoid reading as much of the second statement as possible , because there is a good deal of repitition. You take the second statement now, witness. That one, I am afraid, has not been marked. The third and fourth paragraphs on the first page of the statement:

"As to when the Staatspolizei had begun the shootings I am not in a position to say, but I imagine it happened when only a few prisoners were still at large and their capture could no longer be reconed with. As regards the lapse of time between the order for Grossfahndung and being shown the orders for the shootings, this could only have been a matter of a few days. I can no longer recall exact dates. I di know, however, for certain that no shootings have taken place anywhere at the time when the order was shown to me.

Then perhaps I could read the last paragraph but one on that page: "Before the last escape had taken place, I had heard nothing about the prospect of more drastic measures to be taken against the prisoners.

I heard of it only after the final escape but before I had been shown in Berlin the order for the shootings. It was then that Dr. Absalom had told me that he had heard in Sagan Camp -- from whom I do not know, although I believe it was Oberst Lindeiner -- that further shootings would take place. When this particular order was shown to me in Berlin it appeared to me to be merely a proof that the military were behind this brutal measure or at least it had knowledge of it before the RSHA. AS regards the expression, more than half in the order of Dr. Kaltenbrunner -- this is how the wording is fixed in my mind; however, it is quite possible that a specific number was given and that I, in quickly glancing through the order, interpreted thus in my mind, that that is more than half."

My Lord, perhaps I might read -- omitting the first several paragraphs which are realty repetitious -- a paragraph just a little more than half-way down the page: "I do not know how the Gestapo took over from the local prisons, those officers who were to be shot. It is, however, possible that the Gestapo got in touch with the KRIPO. In Lower Silesia, the firing squads were detailed by the officer in charge of the Staatspolizei, Dr. Scharpwinkel, or by his orders. I never heard who belonged to those squads."

Then the last paragraph on that page: "I declare in answer to the question as to why the KRIPO did not carry out the shootings, that in the execution of its duties the KRIPO felt themselves bound by the previsions of the Strafgesetzerdnung and the Reichsstrafgesetz, and that their personnel were trained in accordance with these standards. On the other hand, during the war, the Staatspolizei had, incited by Himmler, become less scrupulous. They carried out executions on the orders of the RSHA or with the approval of that department whenever required. That is the reason why German citizens' general detestation of the Staatspolizei did not extend to the KRIPO. The urns were obviously returned to the KRIPO for the sole reasons that the intervention of the Staatspolizei should not become publicly known; i.e. the English officers in camp should not become aware of it."

My Lord, I think that is all I need read.

THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the defense counsel want to ask any questions of the witness?

DR. NELTE:Dr. Nelte, counsel for Keitel. BY DR. NELTE:

QWitness, during your activities and during this terrible matter, were you in touch with the OKW or the defendant Keitel in any way?

ANo, neither with the OKW nor with Fieldmarshal Keitel, nor with any other high officers.

QDid I understand you correctly when you stated that the order that we are talking about here, so far as you know, went over the path from Hitler to Himmler, to the RSHA, and then the lower officers?

AYes, that is the organizationally correct path it should have taken and it did.

QBy whom was the list demanded, of which you spoke, the list that was to contain the names of those who made a nuisance of themselves?

AThat was asked for by the RSHA.

QIn the second half of what was read just now, a sentence is contained that reads: "The camp commander must have been informed through military officers of the intended shooting ahead of time."

ANo, I should not like to repeat that here so strongly. It is possible that it might have been discussed, the shootings night have been discussed in the camp or that sharper measures in general would be taken toward English officers if escapes continued but in this connection, I know nothing more specific; namely, in the connection of which we are concerned here.

QThen you do not want to insist on the fact that we are here dealing with remarks that were made before the flight?

ANo, at least not so far as these shootings are concerned; at least not in direct relationship to this particular flight or escape.

QBut it is not possible to know ahead of time if someone is going to escape. For that reason I ask you whether this remark is related to some discussion that took place in connection with the flight of these officers and which perhaps was directed toward the future prevention of escapes?

AThat is altogether possible because continual attempts to escape were made at Sagan.