The last that is contained in the instrument is:
" I charge you furthermore to send me, before long, an over-all plan concerning the organizational, factual and material measures necessary for the accomplishment of the desired solution of the Jewish question." Heydrich and Himmler? would have anything to do with it. That can be seen from the first part of the letter, the last sentence.
Q Let's have no misunderstanding about this translation, now. This letter itself we directed to the chief of the security police and the security service and SS Gruppenfuehrer Heydrich. We are right about that, are we not? that. with the decree of the 24th of January, 1939, that is to say Himmler, respecttively, had received the task of emigration of Jews. Therefore, this was the central office concerned with regard to all the material and economic consequences. I had to turn to that office which was charged with that task.
Q Yes. And you ordered all other governmental agencies to cooperate with the security police and the SS in the final of the Jewish question didn't you? Heydrich was SS Gruppenfuehrer. He had nothing directly to do with it, because it was sent to chief of the security police -- mentioning his rank as SS Gruppenfuehrer Heydrich. to do with the case?
A I have to explain that. If I write to the supreme commander of the army, then I write to the supreme commander of the army, Colonel-General or Fieldmarshal von Brauchitsch, for instence. And if I write to the chief of the security police, SS Gruppenfuehrer Heydrich. That was his rank and his title. However, that had nothing to do with the mentioning of the SS.
Q Now, at the time that you issued this order you had received com-
plete reports as to the 1938 riots and Heydrich's port in then, hadn't you? the information about it at that time -- only the report by Heydrich about the riots which I had demanded.
Q All right. Now we will show you Exhibit No. 3058 PS, in evidence as U.S. Exhibit 508.
(A document was handed to the witness) 11 November 1938, was it not? persons for looting, the destruction of 815 shops, 171 dwellings set on fire or destroyed, and what those indicated only a fraction of the actual damage caused? 191 synagogues were set on fire, and another 76 completely destroyed; in addition, 11 parish halls, comentary chapels. and similar buildings were set on fire, and 3 more completely destroyed; 20,000 Jews were arrested; also, 7 aryans and 3 foreigners. The latter were arrested for their own safety. 36 Deaths were reported, and these seriously injured were also numbered at 36. Those killed and injured are Jews. One Jews is still missing. The Jews killed include 1 Polish national. and those injured include 2 Poles. you not?
A That is correct. That is th report which I have mentioned which I had requested from the police, because I wanted to know what had happened up to then.
Q Exactly. And the note was make at the top of it. "The General Fieldmarshal has been informed no steps are to be taken," was it not?
A That is not correct in this way: It says here, " General Fieldmarshal has been informed no steps are to be taken from any other office," because I myself wanted to take them.
Q Now, you know that that isn't true, don't you, that those steps were to be taken by any other office? I put is ti you squarely whether you are telling this Tribunal when you say that no steps were to be taken by anyone else, whether you are telling this Tribunal the truth.
done, because I pointed out I am going to take care of it personally, because with this report I want straight to the Fuehrer.
Q All right. Did you receive a report from the chief Party adjutant of the Nazi Party, dated Munich, the 13th of February, 1939, of the Party proceedings about these matters?
A That is correct. Much later I received that report.
Q And at the time you appointed -- I withdraw the question. It is obvious from the dates of the documents. You acknowledged the receipt of that document, did you not, to Party member Buch? ceedings taken by the court of the Party, were they not?
A Not quit; some were brought before the court. Taht is in the report also.
Q I ask that he shown the report,which is document 3063-PS. It is not in evidence. Since the document apparently hasn't been brought here, I will ask you from your recollection.
Q I thought so.
Q Yes, it has been kept from you. Now, in the first place, the Pary court reported that it was probably understood -- I quote -- "by all of the Party leaders present, from oral instructions of the Reich Propaganda Director, that the Party should not appear outwardly as the originator of the demonstrations but in reality should organize and execute them." Was that the report of the Party court? lished that the propaganda Chief Goebbels has given these directives. My I ask, we are dealing with a report of the days ofMarch or maybe April?
A Yes, that is correct; that is the result of investigation after the incidents.
Q That is right. Now, as a result of the riots, did the court, the Party court not also report this to you: "The Supreme Party Court has reserved for itself the investigation of the killings, severe mistreatment and moral crimes and that it would request the Fehrer to squash proceedings against any persons that the Parry court did not find guilty of excesses." leaders of the Party?
A The Party court changed. I cannot say just now, without having the document, who was the Party court at that time. I just see the document. where the report says "Gauleiters ans Group leaders of the branches served as jurors at the trials and decisions." Party Court were always taken from these categories according to their importance. I only wanted to express I did not know which names were participating. Did they not?Number I was a moral crime and race violation by one of the members of the Party and he was expelled.Is that right? A And turned over to the penal court. That is what it says in t last sentence.
Q That is right. Another Party member, Number 2 case, was suspected of race violation and was expelled from the Nazi Party
A: For suspicion of race violation and turned over to the State Court.
Q Yes; and number 2, Gustav, was expelled from the Party and SA for theft. Right? also on suspicion of race violation; turned over to the State Court. the grounds of moral crimes against a Jewess and they are now held in protective custody. Right?
A Expelled from the NSDAP, taken into protective custody; those have also been turned over to the civil courts later and to the penal courts. I know that very well. a man, a Party member and SA member, who was given a warning and sentenced to three years, deprivation of ability to hold public office because of disciplinary violation; namely, killing, of the Jewish couple Selig, contrary to orders. Is that right? tence of three years, deprivation of ability to hold office because of shooting a sixteen year old Jew, contrary to orders after completion of the drive. Is that right? proceedings were suspended or minor punishments pronounced, and I will not go through those in detail but it is a fact that only minor punishments were proounced for the killing of Jews by the Supreme Court of the Party, were they not?
Q I call your attention to this language in regard to cases 3 to 16.
Q Nine, Ibelieve it is. The supreme Party Court asks the Fuehrer to squash the proceedings in the State Criminal Courts. suppress. A penal proceeding can be "niedergeschlagen" In German that is something different. It is not the same thing as suppress it is. What does beating down a proceeding mean, does it mean that it has ended? office which has authority to do it; that is to say, the Fuehrer can do that. The Cabinet at any time could resolve to suppress, that is, to beat down a proceeding -- suppressing it would have been illegal. That is the juridical expression in Germany, "niedergeschlagen."
Q And one further question. It was also reported to you. Was it not in that report -- I refer to page 11 -- "The public down to the last man realizes that political drives, like these of the 9th of November, were organized and directed by the Party, whether this is admitted or not. When all the synagogues burned down in one night, it must have been organized in some way and only have been organized by the Party." That also was in the report of the Supreme Party Court, was it not?
A I did not find it yet. It is not the same page as mine.
Q Let us find it and not have any mistake about it. Page 11. I would think it would be at the very bottom of page ten, perhaps, were it starts.
Q Did I give a reasonably correct translation of it?
THE PRESIDENT: Would that be a convenient time to brak off? before we break off, one moment; You will offer in evidence these which are not already in evidence?
MR JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes, they should be, your Honor, I will do that.
THE PRESIDENT:I think 3575-PS may have been offered yesterday, and not strictly offered in evidence, and 3063-PS today, and one other document the number of which I haven't got.
Mr. JUSTICE JACKSON: I appreciate very much your calling my attention to it.
(A recess was taken until 1545 hours.)
DR. HORN (Counsel for the defendant Ribbentrop):
Mr. President.......
INTERPRETER: I am sorry, but I'm not getting this at all.
THE PRESIDENT: The interpreter is saying that she could not hear. Will you please repeat what you said.
DR. HORN: I ask you, your Honor, to permit the defendant von Ribbentrop to be absent from tomorrow's session, as there are many matters that I have to discuss with him, so that I may have my material ready, and I request your permission.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Horn, your suggestion as I understand it, is that the defendant Ribbentrop should be absent from tomorrow morning's sitting in order that you may consult with him in reference with the preparation of his defense. Is that right?
DR. HORN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has no objection to that course being taken privided that you make some arrangement whereby another defense counsel may be present in court in your absence from court if any questions arise. The Tribunal does not wish that you use your absence from court as an objection to something which may have arisen in your absence, you understand that, don't you?
DR. HORN: Yes, Mr. President, and I give you my assurance that I will not use an objection of that nature and shall ask one of my colleagues to act in my behalf.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has no objection to your taking that course of action, but of course you realize that the trial cannot be held up by any delay which might be caused in the future by the fact that you were not present.
DR. HORN: Mr. President, the purpose of my request is such that it will help me to avoid future delays.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I quite understand that. I was only saying that in allowing you to do this, which is perfectly reasonable, the Tribunal is merely indicating they will not grant future delays which might occur.
DR. HORN: I understand that and I wish to tank you.
BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:
quotes a speech of yours delivered at Essen on the 11th of March 1933, including the following -- and I refresh your recollection by calling it to your attention:
"I am told that I must employ the police. Certainly I shall employ the police, and quite ruthlessly, whenever the German people are hurt, but I refuse the motion that the police are protective troops for Jewish stores. No, the police protect whoever comes into Germany legitimately, but it does not exist for the purpose of protecting usurers."
Did you say that? that or that in substance? the speech. Before I answer, I would like to ask whether you have quite finished with the other document that was submitted to me previously. I gave no explanation and will ask my Counsel to have me questioned later on in regard to that document. you called a meeting on the 12th of November and ordered all officials concerned to be present, and that the Fuehrer had inisted on Goebbels being present.
AAll the leaders of the economical "resorts" or departments. Goebbels?
A Those present were, as fas as I recall, for reporting purposes: The Chief of the Secret Police, the Minister of Economy, the Minister of Finance, the Minister of the Interior -
Q Will you please name them by name so we won't have any mistake about who was who at that time.
A I can quote only from memory. Present were, to report all events: The Leader of the Secret Police for Berlin, Heydrich, Minister of the Interior, Dr.Frick; Dr.Goebbels you have mentioned already; the Minister of Economy, Funk; Finance Minister,Count Schwerin Kresick; from the Eastern Province, Fischboeck for the Ostmark. although there may be a few others who were there too. was also present, was he not ? which are in evidence as US Exhibit 261, being document 1816-PS, have you not, in your interrogation ? misunderstanding aobut the translations.
You opened the meeting with this statement, as I read it: "Gentlemen" -- I think perhaps you had better identify this meeting. This is the meeting held on the 12th day of November 1938 at the office of the Reichsministry forAir. That is correct, is it not ?
Q You opened the meeting: "Gentlemen, today's meeting is of a decisive natuere. I have received a letter written on the Fuehrer's orders by the Stableiter of the Fuehrer's Deputy Bormann, requesting that the Jewish question be now, once for all, coordinated and solved one way or another". Is that correct ?
Q Further down, I find this:
"Because, gentlemen, I have had enough of those demonstrations. They don't harm the Jews, but me, who is the last authority for coordinating the Germaneconomy. If today a Jewish shop is destroyed, if goods are thrown into the street, the insurance company will pay for the damages which the Jew does not even have, and furthermore, goods of the consumer, goods belonging to the people, are destroyed. If, in the future, demonstrations which are necessary occur, then I pray that they be directed so as not to hurt us". Am I correct ?
A "And I wish to have these things directed in such a way that we will not be harming ourselves. If a Jewish store is evacuated and fired, the insurance will cover the damage and the products which I need will be destroyed, but in a case like that I might as well burn the row materials as they come in".
Q That's right. You read any part of it that you want to as we go along, in addition to what I read. "I am not going to tolerate a situation in which the insurance companies are the ones to suffer. Under the authority vested in me, I shall issue a decree and I am, of course, requesting the support of the competent government agencies so that everything shall be procassed through the right channels and the insurance companies will not be the ones who suffer. "It may be so that these insurance companies may have insurance in foreign countries. If that is the case, foreign bills of exchange would be available, which I would not want to lose. That shall have to be checkes. For that reason, I have asked Mr.Hilgard of the insurance companies to attend, since he is best qualified to tell us to what extent the insurance companies are protected against damage by having taken out insurance with other companies.
I would not want to miss tis under any circumstances". Is that correct ?
Q "I should not want to leave any doubt, gentlemen, as to the aim of today's meeting. We have not come together merely to talk again, but to make decisions, and I implere the competend agencies to take all measures for the elimination of the Jew from German economy and to submit them to me as far as is necessary."
A That is correct. Q I then skip a considerable portion, unless there is more that you wish to put in, and come to this statement:
" The Trustee of the State will estimate the value of the property and decide what amount the Jew shall receive. Naturally, this amount is to be seht as low as possible. The representative of the State shall then turn the establishment over to the Aryan proprietor, that is, the property shall be sold according to its real value.
" There begin the difficulties. It is easily understood that strong attempts will be made to get all these stores to Party members and to let them have some kind of compensation. I have witnessed terrible things in the past; little chauffeurs of Gauleiters have profited so much by these transactions that they have new about half a million. You gentlemen know it. Is that correct?" And they assented. A Yes, I said that. Q Do you care to read anything further in connection with that? A Perhaps only the next sentence:
"These is, if any individual was attempting to profit by Jewish possessions -- is that what you meant? A By the aryanization. Q I will quote another portion:
" In other words, an ordinary business transaction is to be sought, one merchant selling, the other one buying a business. If there are Party members among the contenders, they are to be preferred, that is, if they have the same qualifications. First shall come the one who has had the most damage; secondly, select should be according to ranks of Party membership."
I skip a line or two:
" This Party member should have a chance to buy the store for as cheap a price as possible.
In such a case, the State will not receive the full price, but only the amount the Jew received." Is that correct? A Just a moment, please, I believe we skipped something. Q Yes, we did. If you want to put it in, you may read it. A No, I might just say briefly, regarding the substance, I sai what you have already said, that if there is any consideration to be given, the Party member is to be preferred, first of all the one who had been hurt previously in that his business concessions had been taken away from him just because he had been a Party member, and then follows the paragraph which you read an which is correct as it was read. Q Now, you then take up at considerable length the method by which you shall aryanize Jewish stores, is that right? A Yes. Q And then you take up the aryanization of Jewish factories. A Yes. Q You take up the smaller factories first. A yes. Q Have you found the place where you take up the factories? A Yes, I have found it. Q Quoting:
" As for the smaller and medium ones, two things shall have to be made clear; First, which factories do I not need at all, which are the ones, where production could be suspended. Could they not he put to another use? If not, the factories will be razed immediately.
"Second, in case the factory should be needed, it will be turned over to Aryans in the same manner as the stores." That is correct, is it? A Yes. Q Do you care to say any more on that subject? A No, these should be the basic reasons for the laws. Q Now, I call your attention to the paragraph second from that, starting, "Take now the larger factories," Do you find tha THE PRESIDENT:
Just a minute, Mr. Jackson, the Russian trans-
lation is not coming through. All right, go on. BY MR JACKSON: Q Dealing with the larger factories, and so on, do you not say the solution is very simple, that the factory can he compensated in the same manner as in the sale of stores and factories, that is, at a rate whichwe shall determine, and the trustees shall take over the Jews interest, as well as his shares, which in turn may he sold or transferred to the State, which will then dispose of them to the Reich? A That means any one who has any interest in the factories wil receive reparation, which will be determinded by us, and that is true. Q And the reparation will be turned over to the State trustees. will it not? A True, to the State trustees. The matter was simple to follow, The Jews received credit, and received a crefit slip, and the matter was to be handled through the trustees. Q Well, we will come down to where you deal with the foreign Jews, do you recall that? A Yes. Q At that point a representative of the foreign office claimed a right to participate on behalf of the Foreign Minister, is that right? A Yes. Q Well, now, we will pass down to the point of the conversation between yourself and Heydrich. A Just a moment, please. Part of the minutes, I may have them. Yes, I found the place where Heydrich is mentioned for the first time. Q You inquired how many synagogues were actually burned, and Heydrich replied," Altogether there werde 101 synagogues destroy by fire, 76 synagogues demolished, and 7500 stores ruined in the Reich. " Have I Quoted that correctly? A Yes. Q Well, then Mr. Goebbels interposed, " I am of the opinion that it is our chance to dissolving the synagogues, and then you have a discussion about the divvelving the synagogues, did you n* A Through Dr. Goebbels, yes, and the explanation of Dr. Goebbels that is to say.
Q Then Dr. Goebbels raised the question of Jews travelling on railway trains? A Yes. Q And let me see if I quote the dialogue between you and Dr. Goebbels correctly on that subject. That Dr. Goebbels said, "Furthermore, I advocate that Jews be eliminated from all positions in public life in which they may prove to be provocation It is still possible today that a Jew shares a compartment in a sleeping car with a German; therefore, we nee a decree by the Reich Ministry for Communications stating that separate compartments for Jews shall be available. In cases where compartments a filled up, Jews can not claim a seat. They shall be given separa compartments only after all Germans have secured seats. They shall not mix with the Germans, and if there is no more room, they shall have to stand in the corridor. " Is that right? A Yes, that is correct. Q "Goring: In that case I think it would make more sense to give them separate compartments. Goebbels: Not if the train is over-crowded. Goering: Just a moment. There will be only one Jewish coach. If that is filled up the other Jews will have to stay at home. Goebbels: Suppose though there won't be many Jews going on an express train to Munich. Suppose there willbe two Jews in a train, and the other compartments would be over-crowded thesetwo Jews would then have a compartment all by themselves therefore, Jews may claim a seat only after all Germans have secured a seat. Goering: I would gibe the Jews one coach, or one compartment, and should a case like you mentioned arise, and the train be over-crowded, believe me, we won't need a law. We will kick him out, and he will have to sit alone in the toilet allthe way." Is that correct? A Yes.I had become a little vervous when Goebbels had had important matters that were brought forward in certain particulars and in this connection I gave out no decrees, or no laws. Of cou today, it is in their right very pleasant for the prosecution to present it, but I wish to state that it was a very lively sessioin which Goebbels made demand which were as I say in a radical scope, and in a radical criminal scope, and in accordance with my demeanor I expressed myself.
Q Then Goebbels would be radical at this stage when he said that Jews should stand in the corridors, and you said that they would have to sit in the toilet. That is the way you say it? A No, that is not so. It is only pictured that way. I said that they should have a special compartment, and when Goebbels still was not satisfied, and made a further explanation in detail I finally told him, " I do not need to require for some one to sit in the toilet, but that some one might as well sit in the toilet, and that these utterances had no worldly significance." Q Let's go down to where Goebbels brings up the subject of the German.
Forests.
A Just a moment, please, Yes. It became a state where Goebbels wished a decree which would prevent Jews to go to German Recreational Centres, and I answered to that, "Established some of their own for them," and then he said, "It would have to be considered whether we should turn a few German resorts over to them, to some of their own, but not the finest and the best, and we can not say that for the Jews for their recreation, also to put resorts at their disposal," and it was to be considered, if possible, to prohibit Jews from entering German Forests, because many Jews were taking walks in the Grunewald in Berlin, and that was not a Provocation. Then several others interposed, and I rather drastically answered, "Then it would be better to put a certain part of the forest at the disposal of the Jews, because you want them out of the rest of the forest, "and I made the remark which seems to be of interest at this point.
Q Let's have that remark. Is it not correct, you did state, "We will give the Jews a certain part of the forest, and the Alpers shall take care of it with the forest animals that look damm much like Jews - - the Elk has such a crooked nose, get them also to become acclimated." Is that what you said"? whole feeling of the men at this meeting, and Goebbels again said he considered this demeanor provoking, and if I may say so, it was provoking to me, and that he wished to leave the economic matters on the side, and rather bring in those secondary matters.
Q Now, you come to the point where you ask Mr. Hilgard from the Insurance Company to come in. Do you find that?
Q Then you made a statement to Mr. Hilgard when he appeared." The following is our case. Because of the justified anger of the people against the Jews, the Reich has suffered a certain amount of damage. Windows were broken, goods were damaged, and people hurt; synagogues burned, and soforth. I suppose that Jews, many of them are also insured against damage committed by public disorder. Hilgard: Yes. Goering if that is so the following situation arises. The people in their justified anger meant to harm the -
Jews, but these German insurance companies are to compensate the Jews for the damage.
This situation is simple enough. I only have to issue a decree to that effect, that damage resulting from these risks shall not have to be paid by the insurance company." Is that what you said? you that at least as to plate glass insurance, the majority of the victims who were the owners of the buildings were Aryans, and that the Jews had usually been the renter, is that right?
A Yes, those are the particulars.
Q And Hilgard said: "May I draw your attention to the following facts: Glass for the shop windows is not being manufactured by the Bohemian but by the Belgian glass industry. In my estimation the approximate money value to which these damages amount is six million. That includes the broken glass, glass which we shall have to replace mainly to Aryans because They have insurance policies."
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Justice Jackson, before you pass from that page, in the third paragraph, just for the sake of accuracy, it appears that the name "Mr. Hilgard" is wrongly placed, does it not, because he both seems to put the question and answer it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I think that is -
THE PRESIDENT: Probably the defendant Goering put the question. It is the third paragraph on my page.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It take it that the minutes came in that way; that when Hilgard appeared Goering addressed him as "Mr. Hilgard".
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I see.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But it is correct as your Honor suggests.
THE WITNESS: I wish to point out that preceding this matter, if this glass damage, as Goebbels said, is involved, the Jews must take care of the damage and I said, "It is not possible, we have no raw material, it is all foreign glass. That will require foreign currency and this is a very important problem." Then come the discussions just mentioned.
BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:
Q Yes, and Hilgard pointed out that - - "Incidentally the amount of damage equals about half of a whole year's production of the Belgian glass industry. We believe that half a year will be necessary for the manufacturers to deliver the glass."
Do you recall that? you about a store on Unter-den-Linden that was a subject of attack. Do you find that?
A He said, "the largest cases which we have is the case Markgraf Unter-den Linden." Is that the case you mean?