Q And what was his attitude when he got this information?
AHe was furious when he received that report, because he rejected the entire action as such.
QAnd what did he do about it?
AHe got in touch with the Fuehrer immediately, in order to demand that this action be stopped immediately.
QWhich task did you have within the framework of the Four-Year Plan?
AI was Chief of the Office of the Four-Year Plan.
QWhich jobs did you have?
ATo head the office, supervise the work.
QHow did the Four-Year Plan come about? When was that, and how did it start?
AThe Four-Year Plan was proclaimed in October of 1936, but the history goes back to the nutritional crisis of 1935. In the fall of 1935 the Reichsmarshal received the order -
THE PRESIDENT:Witness, try not to go quite so fast. It is very difficult to get the translation.
THE WITNESS:Yes, sir.
A (Continuing) In the fall of 1935, the Reichsmarshal received the order from the Fuehrer to assure nutrition for the German people since, because of the bad harvest of 1934 and 1935, that was in danger. We were short about two million tons of bread grain and several hundred thousand tons of fat, which had to be procured some way or another.
The Reichsmarshal solved this problem satisfactorily, and that caused the Fuehrer to ask him for suggestions as to how the entire German economy could be reorganized. These proposals were worked out at the first of the year 1936, and during the summer were presented to the Fuehrer.
On the basis of these proposals, the Fuehrer had the idea of the Four-Year Plan, which he proclaimed on the occasion of Party Day in 1936. On the 18th of October, 1936, the Fuehrer issued a decree which appointed the Reichsmarshal Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan.
QWhat were the purposes connected with the Four-Year Plan?
AAs I said before, to reform and reorganize the German economy. The main task was to increase German export as much as possible, and to supplement exports so as to increase the production of agriculture.
QWas the Four-Year Plan a means of rearmament?
AOf course, it also served for the reestablishment or the rebuilding of the German Wehrmacht, the Army.
QDid the Four-Year Plan have anything to do with manpower?
AYes. Within the Four-Year Plan a Plenipotentiary for Manpower was appointed. He was the former President of the Reichsamt, President Syrup.
QWhen was he appointed?
AThat was at the beginning of the Four-Year Plan, in the fall of 1936.
QWhat were his tasks in particular?
AHe had to regulate the Arbeitseinsatz, so that the confusion which existed in the labor market could be ended.
QHow long did Syrup remain in office?
ASyrup left in the spring of 1942, for reasons of illness.
QWho was his successor?
AHis successor was Gauleiter Sauckel.
Q who appointed Sauckel?
ASauckel was appointed by the Fuehrer.
QAnd what was his job?
AHis main job as Plenipotentiary for the Arbeitseinsatz, manpower, was that he had the job to regulate manpower problems. He was formally under the Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan, but he received his directives immediately from the Fuehrer.
QIn what manner did you work for that?
AFrom the beginning, 1942, I had no more influence so far as manpower was concerned, since Sauckel received his directives from the Fuehrer and executed them independently.
QDidn't you have any more negotiations with Sauckel?
ANo, There had been no negotiations, so far as I remember, since he received his directives immediately from the Fuehrer.
QWho disposed of the manpower? Who distributed it?
AThe labor offices, and they were under Sauckel.
Q What was the relationship between the Reichsmarshal and Himmler?
AIt was not a very good one. Frequently there were tensions. There was no confidence between the two.
DR. STAHMER:I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Do any other defendants counsel wish to ask any questions?
(No response)
Do the prosecution wish to ask any questions?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:
QIn your testimony you made some references to a conference between Goering and Thaelmann.
AYes, I did.
QWill you tell us when that occurred?
AThat must have been in the summer of 1933.
QIn the summer of 1933? Was that before or after the Reichstag fire?
AThat was after the Reichstag fire.
QAnd Thaelmann was accused in the Reichstag fire and acquitted by the court, was he not?
AI cannot remember that very well.
QDo you remember it at all? Do you remember that he was accused?
AI cannot remember that very well, whether he was accused. That may be.
QDo you know where he died?
ANo, I don't know.
QDo you know that he was interned in Buchenwald after the Reichstag fire and remained there until he died in 1944? Did you know that?
AYes, I remember that he was a victim of an air attack.
QAnd where was he when this air attack overtook him?
AWhere Thaelmann was? I did not quite understand the question.
QWhere was he when he was a victim of an air attack?
AAs much as I have heard, he was allegedly in the concentration camp of Buchenwald.
QAnd how long had he been there?
AThat I don't known I have no knowledge of that.
Q Were you present at the conversation between Thaelmann and Goering?
AYes.
QWhat did he complain about then in the concentration camp?
AAbout treatment during interrogations.
QThat was the only complaint he made?
AYes, so far as I can remember. The Reichsmarshal asked him whether he had good food, and they were discussing everything, treatment and food.
Q And Thaelmann foundno fault with the concentration camps except treatment during interrogation.
AYes, as far as I remember, that was the main complaint.
QWere the Communists regarded by the Nazis as enemies of the country?
AYes.
QAnd concentration camps, then, were built then to house Communists, among others, were they not?
AYes.
QAnd Jews?
AAs far as they were known as enemies of the State.
QWere Jews also regarded as enemies of the state?
AGenerally not; only after they had been recognized as such.
QRecognized as such -- what, Jews?
ANo, if a Jew was recognized as an enemy of the State he was treated as an enemy of the State.
AWell, his attitude, his active participation in actions
QWhat was the test as to whether he was an enemy of the State? hostile to the State.
QSuch as what? What actions?
AThat I cannot say in detail now. I was not chief of the Gestapo, and I do not knew the details.
QWere you not with Goering ashis secretary during the time he was chief of the Gestapo?
AIn April, 1933, I became State Secretary of the Prussian State Ministry.
QAnd didn't you have to do with concentration camps under the Secret Police as such?
ANo, I had nothing to do with that.
QWho handled that for Goering?
AThat was the Ministerialdirektor, Diehls.
QDid you know that in setting up the Secret State Police Goering used SS men?
AI cannot remember that any more.
Q You were a member of the SS, were you not?
AYes.
QWhat was your office in the SS?
AI never held any office in the SS. I was just a member of the SS.
QWere you not Obergruppenfuehrer?
AYes, I was an SS Obergruppenfuehrer.
QNow, as to these "wild" concentration camps, you were asked who set those wild concentration camps us, and I don't think you answered. Will you tell us about who set up the wild concentration camps?
AI remember two comps. In the case of one, I know it was one Gruppenfuehrer Heines, in Breslau.
QGruppenfuehrer of what?
A SAGruppenfuehrer Heines, in Breslau.
QWho was the other?
AThat I don't know precisely. I believe it was Karpfenstein, but I cannot be sure of that
QWho was he?
AKarpfenstein was Gauleiter in Stettin.
QAnd the Gauleiter was a Party official?
AYes, he was a Party official.
QAnd the concentration camps were designed to take care of not only enemies of the State but enemies of the Party, were they not?
AYes.
QAnd in his absence the State Secretary of the State Ministry was to act as chief of the State Secret Police?
ANo, that was Diehls.
QWas that not the law, whatever was done about it? Did you not knew that that was the law under which the Secret State Police was set up, Section 1, Paragraph 2?
AI cannot remember what law any more. I do not know the details any more.
QDo you know the law of November 30, 1933 -- you don't know the law under which you were operating?
A I do not remember that law now. I would have to see it again.
QNow, what was wrong with these concentration camps that they had to be closed out?
AThese wild concentration camps had been established without the approval of the Prussian Prime Minister and therefore he prohibited them immediately.
QThat is the only reason, that they were set up without his authority?
AI believe, yes.
QAnd he had them stopped immediately?
AImmediately stopped, yes.
QGoering did not tolerate concentration camps that were not under his control and the Fuehrer backed him up in it, is that right?
AYes.
QNow, from time to time complaints came to you about the treatment of people in concentration camps, all during the time you were with Goering, did there not?
AThose -- yes, there were frequent complaints; that is true.
QWhat did they complain of?
AThere was naturally -
QTell the Tribunal what the complaints were that you had to deal with.
AWell, mostly they were relatives of the people who had been brought to concentration camps and they asked for their release; or made complaints because they thought they had reasons that these people had been brought to the concentration camp unjustifiably.
QThat is, that they were innocent people, innocent of any offense?
AThe relatives asserted that.
QDid you do anything to get them released from concentration camps?
A The Reichsmarshal had ordered that all complaints had to be con-
sidered and investigated, and it was immediately done.
QAnd did you find that many of these people were innocent, or did you find that they were guilty?
AIf there was a case among them were somebody had been brought into a concentration camp and he was innocent, he was released immediately.
QAnd to whom was the communication given, that he had been found innocent and was to be released from the concentration camp?
AThat was sent to the Secret State Police, Cestapo.
QWhat at the Secret State Police? Who was the man you communicated with?
AWhoever was competent in these matters. In detail, I do not know. The chief, as far as I remember, was first Heydrich and then Kaltenbrunner and then Mueller.
QGoering was on good terms with all of those, was he not?
AYes.
QWell-acquainted with all of those men?
AWell-acquainted, of course.
QNow, when you say that Goering obtained the release of people from concentration camps, are you talking about just one or two cases or did he obtain the release of a good many people?
AThroughout the years, of course; there were several cases -- a number of cases.
QWhat do you mean by "several"?
AWell, I cannot tell the number now. At any rate, there was quite a number of cases where people had been released.
QDid you find any where the people were guilty when you investigated?
AIf they could not be released, then they were guilty.
QWho decided that?
AThat, as far as I know, was decided by the chief of the Secret State Police.
QWell, then, what did you do in requesting their release? Did you advise the Secret Police that you disagreed with their conclusion that the man was guilty, or did Goering simply order the man released or request his release?
A No, they were told what reason there was that the man should be re-
leased.
QDo you know of any instance in which Goering requested the release of a person from a concentration camp whore it was not granted?
AI cannot say that now. I have to think it over -- think about it.
QYou can't recall any today, can you, in which Goering's word requesting a release was not honored?
AAt this moment I cannot remember any particular case.
QHow many people were put in concentration camps as a result of the Roehm revolt?
AThat I cannot say either.
QHow many people were killed as a result of it?
AI cannot say that from memory any more. As far as I know, these figures were published at the time.
QWell, would it be a couple of hundred people that were killed for it?
AI would not like to state a figure, because I may be wrong.
QWell, it was a very large number of people, wasn't it?
ANo, I am sure it was not a very large number. The number was published at that time. One could investigate that and find out.
QWell, why did the Reichsmarshal want Hitler to stop punishing the people who had been a party to the Roehm revolt?
AI did not quite understand the question.
QI understood your testimony to be that the Reichsmarshal went to Hitler at some time and wanted this campaign against people who were in the Roehm revolt stopped. And I want to know why he wanted it stopped?
ASo as to prevent the suffering of innocent people, so that only the absolutely guilty should be caught and punished It was clear that during that action one or the other would like to take personal revenge and do away with his personal enemy, and in order to stop that, this action should be stopped immediately and only regular courts pass upon the matter.
Q Who was in charge of the selection of the people who were shot or otherwise killed as a result of the Roehm revolt?
AThe Fuehrer personally ordered it.
QAnd the Reichsmarshal had sufficient influence to stop that immediately when he complained?
AAt that time, yes, the Reichsmarshal had absolutely that influence.
QIn connection with this Four Year Plan, you say that it was its function to regulate the confusion in the labor market?
AYes.
QNow, you represented the Reichsmarshal in many meetings, did you not?
AYes.
QAnd was not one of your functions to get prisoners of war to work in the armament industry and other industries that needed labor?
ANo.
QYou never had anything to do with that?
AThe job potential for the Four Year Plan demanded, of course, prisoners of war for Arbeitseinsatz.
QYou attended many meetings when that was discussed, did you not?
AI could not recall that from memory.
QDid you report to the Reichsmarshal what happened at those meetings?
AIf questions of a general nature were discussed, always a report was made and presented to the Reichsmarshal.
QYou were a member of the Central Planning Board, were you not?
AYes.
QAnd you were representing on that Board the Reichsmarshal?
ANo. I did not represent the Reichsmarshal. It was a group of three men -- Speer, the Field Marshal, and myself. Central Planning was created in the spring of 1942.
QWho appointed you?
AThe three of us were appointed to the Central Planning Board.
QWho appointed you?
AAs much as I remember, it was Goering.
QAnd you reported to hi, did you not, what occurred from time to time?
A The Central Planning Board was nothing else than an institution to distribute raw materials.
We met every three months in order to establish the contingents for the forthcoming quarter year. The Four Year Plan, together with the Ministry of Economy, took care of that, and later the Central Planning Board.
QNow, do you want us to understand that the Central Planning Board only met every three months?
AYes, about. Only in very rare cases it was called again, especially if there were urgent problems to be solved. I remember one case where agriculture did not get enough nitrogen and therewas danger that if the quota of nitrogen was too small, agricultural production would suffer. We then asked for a discussion, which took place in the Central Planning Board.
QWould you testify that Sauckel did not report to the Central Planning Board at a meeting at which you were present that out of all the labor that came to Germany--only 200,000 came voluntarily--out of the millions who came only 200.000 came voluntarily?
AI can not remember that.
QDo you say that the Central Planning Board never discussed labor questions?
ANo, in the Central Planning Board, only the demands for labor were also taken into consideration, and the institutions which got the raw materials demanded also the workers which they needed, and the figures were given to us and were forwarded to the Plenipotentiary for the Arbeitseinsatz Front.
QWhat about prisoners of war?
AIn that the Central Planning Board was not interested at all, because the Central Plan ning Board only got general figures of workers. For instance, a branch of an industry was short so-and-so many thousand workers, and that was put with the demands for raw materials.
QWhat about concentration camp labor?
AThe distribution of labor was done by thelabor offices. Central Planning had nothing to do with that.
QAre you familiar with a letter dated 9 March 1944, reciting that 36,000 concentration camp prisoners were now being used and wanting an increase to 90,000?
A I do not know about these demands.
QDo you know about the use of Russian prisoners of war in manning antiaircraft guns?
ANo.
QAfter Goering closed the wild concentration camps, as you call them, did you know that the number of concentration camps increased very greatly in Germany?
AThat I do not know. What happened after they were turned over to Himmler is beyond my knowledge. It may be that a large number of concentration camps was established then.
QHow do you come to know about Goering's relations with Himmler? What he told you?
ABecause I could observe that continuously. Goering once has spoken about it, and I could observe that relations were in no way good ones.
QDo you know about the appointment of Kaltenbrunner as head of the Austrian State Police after the Anschluss?
ANo.
QDo you know who obtained that appointment for Kaltenbrunner?
ANo, I have no idea.
QNow, you say that Goering and you were in Munich on the night or nights of the anti-Jewish riots in Germany?
AYes.
QWas Goebbels there also?
ANo.
QGo ahead; do you want to say something else?
AWe went on 9 November from Munich to Berlin, and Goebbels could not be there then.
QWhy could he not be there?
ABecause the Reichsmarshal, with his people, in his train, went to Berlin.
QI mean, did you know that Goebbels was in Munich before these uprisings?
AYes, that I found out later--that Goebbels was in Munich. All National Socialist leaders were in Munich because 9 November was a day when everybody met.
QAnd Goebbels spoke in Munich, did he not? On the Jewish question that night?
A That I do not know. I do not know that speech.
QGoering was there to attend the meeting of the National Socialist leaders, was he not?
AYes, on 9 November the entire leadership of the National Socialist Party met in Munich. That was a general meeting every year.
QAnd Goering attended regularly?
AOf course he did.
QAnd you did?
AI did also, yes.
QNow, Hess attended?
AAs I said, all National Socialist leaders, if it was at all possible to participate, always participated on this day. Nobody ever was missing except if he was ill or had any special duties to perform.
QWhat of the defendants in the dock attended those meetings? Ribbentrop, of course?
ARibbentrop, surely.
QKeitel?
AI assume so. I do not know. I have never seen Kaltenbrunner because Kaltenbrunner get into the public service only during the last years, and during the last years, these meetings did not take place quite in the same fashion as before.
QRosenberg, of course, was there?
AOf course, as I said before.
QAnd Frick?
ASurely, certainly Frank and Frick. Not during the last years, I don't think so. Before that he certainly participated.
QWhich was that, during the last years?
AAs much as I knew, Streicher did not participate during the last years, but I do not know for sure.
QHe was participating along in November 1938 when these Jewish uprisings were, was he not?
AI believe so, because at that time Streicher was in Nurnberg.
QHe was very active, was he not?
AI did not understand the question quite correctly.
Q He was very active in the anti-Jewish matters, was he not?
AYes, that was generally known.
QAnd did you see Funk at those meetings?
AI believe that Funk was frequently at these meetings.
QWhat was the subject considered at this meeting of 9 November, the night of the Jewish uprising?
AI do not knew that anything was talked about that, because there was always a fixed program on that day, and I do not know anything about that, and I do not think the Reichsmarshal knew anything about that.
QWho was the adjutant who informed him on his arrival the next morning that something had happened during the night?
AI can not say that anymore because the adjutant changed. I only knew that an adjutant came and made the report.
Q What did he say that happened?
AHe reported that during the night excesses against the Jews had taken place and that these excesses were continuing; that windows were broken; merchandise thrown into the streets; and so on, and Goering was infuriated.
QWhat was he infuriated about?
AAbout all these excesses.
QYou mean that he was taking the part of the Jews?
AAbout the entire action.
QYou mean that he was taking the part of the Jews?
AGoering always had a different attitude about the Jewish question.
QYou just tell us what it was; you go as far as you want; tell us what his attitude was.
AHis attitude was always a moderate one toward the Jews.
QSuch as fining them a billion Reichsmarks right after the fire; right after these outrages? You know that he did that, don't you?
AYes. That had been demanded by the Fuehrer.
QYou know that the Fuehrer is dead, don't you? Do you know that for a fact?
AYes, I know he is dead.
QThat is generally understood, is it not, among all of you that the Fuehrer is dead?
AYes, yes.
QSo the Fuehrer ordered the Reichsmarshal to levy a billionReichsmark fine? Who ordered the confiscation of the insurance.
AYes.
QWho ordered the confiscation of the insurance of the Jews a few days after this assault?
AThat I don't know. I don't know the details any more.
QDon't you remember that that was Goering's order?
AI do not recall it. I do not recall it now.
QWhy did Goering go to Hitler to get this stopped? Why did he not go to the head of the police, which is supposed to prevent crime?
A Of course he went to the highest chief so that an authorative order could be given that the excesses should stop immediately.
QDid he have any idea who had started them?
AIt was talked about, the fact that Goebbels allegedly had caused these excesses.
QDid he know that the Gestapo and SS also participated?
AI don't know. As much as I know the SS did not participate.
QDid the Gestapo?
ANo; I don't know anything about that.
QSo he went to Hitler to complain about Goebbels inciting these riots,; is that the fact?
AYes, that is correct.
QSo thathe knew the next morning that these riots had been incited by members of the government against the Jews?
AYes.
QYou were interrogated at Obersalzberg, the interrogation center, on the 4th of October of last year by Dr. Kempner of our staff, were you not?
AYes.
QAnd you stated in the beginning of your interrogation that you would not give any testimony against your former superior, Reichsmarshal Goering, and that you regarded Goering as the last big man of the rennaissance; the last great example of a man from the rennaissance period; that he had given you the biggest job of your life and it would be unfaithful and unloyal to give any testimony against him; is that what you said?
AYes, yes; that is just about what I said.
QAnd that is still your answer?
AYes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Do any other members of the prosecution wish to examine this witness? BY GENERAL RUDENKO:
QPerhaps you can remember, Mr. Witness, about the conference of political leaders in the occupied countries and territories which took place on the 6th of August, 1942, under the presidency of defendant Goering.
AI can not remember what conference that should have been.
QPerhaps you can recall, as a result of this conference on the 6th of August, that you directed to all the ministers the minutes of this meeting, in which in the appendix to the minutes it was mentioned how much food stuffs and other raw materials should be furnished to Germany?
AOffhand I can not remember the whole thing.
QI present a document to you which is signed by you and which serves asproof of evidence of this meeting.
AYes, I remember this.
QYou remember that you sent out this document, don't you?
AYes.
QOn the basis of the document it is clear that certain figures were settled as to how much should be sent to Germany from France, 1,200,000 tons of food stuffs; from Belgium; from the Netherlands; from Norway; from Russia, 3,000 000 tons of grain had to be sent to Germany; and so forth. Don't you consider that such shipments are really pillaging of the occupied countries?
AIt was, quite understood that the occupied territories had to help with feed, and in all the occupied territories quotas were established which they could fill, that is to say, if they were not in a position to fill these quotas they could demand changes.
QYou were saying something about pillaging, I think?
ANo, I have not said pillaging. It was understood that the territories had to help also with respect to food.
QThat the occupied countries had to participate?
AYes.
QDid these occupied countries ask Germany to come and rule over them?
AI did not quite get that question.
Q That is quite evident. Here, I want to ask you another ques-
tion in connection with this. You don't recognize that this was pillaging, but don't you recall that Goering himself -
ANo, that could not have been.
QGoering himself at the same meeting, during this meeting which you recall new, said in his address that he is going to pillage aggressively the occupied territories; you don't remember his expression about pillaging aggressively?
ANo, that expression I do not know.
QNo, you don't remember. Perhaps you can recall that at the same meeting, addressing those leaders of the occupied countries, that he told them that, "You are sent there not to work for thewelfare of the people you are in charge of, but you are sent there in order to pump out from thatcountry everything that is possible." Do you remember that statement by the Defendant Goering?
ANo, I can not remember that statement.
QYou cannot remember?
ANo.
QAnd you don't recall any lengthy correspondence between Goering and Rosenberg in which Rosenberg insisted on the fact that all functions relative to the economic exploitation of the occupied territories of the Soviet Union should be taken away from the economic military organs and should be handed over to the ministry headed by Rosenberg?
ANo, I do not recall that letter.
QYou don't know. And in connection with this you don't remember that this correspondence finally didn't settle the question; still didn't settle the question?
AI don't know about that correspondence; at least I have not seen it.
QYou don't know anything, do you? In 1944 don't you recall that -
DR. STAHMER:I would like to point out one thing: The interrogation is incomplete and hard to understand; we do not understand the questions in part ourselves.
GENERAL RUDENKO:Evidently I think that it is not up to me; it is not my fault if the witness does not get all my questions.
BY GENERAL RUDENKO:
Don't you recall that in 1944, after the Red Army had driven the German troops from the Ukraine, Goering wrote to Rosenberg in settling the question relative to the economic exploitation of the Ukraine, stating it should be postponed until a more opportune time, and Goering mentioned the second seizure of the Ukraine and other Soviet territories. Is that what he had in mind?
AThat is supposed to nave happened in 1934?
QIn 1944.
ANo, I can not remember that.
QI shall not argue about it.
GENERAL RUDENKO:Evidently, Mr. President, you consider it necessary to adjourn now. I have a few more questions, but I consider it would be convenient to resume after the adjournment.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours).
Official transcript of the International Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, the French Re public, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics against Hermann Wilhelm Goering et al, Defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 12 March 1946, 1400-1700, Lord Justice Lawrence presiding.
THE PRESIDENT:The Court will adjourn at 4:30 today. BY GENERAL RUDENKO:
QWitness, I intend to give you a document which consists of a letter from the secretary in charge of the foreign affairs dealing with occupied countries, which is Document USSR 74. I want you to recollect whether you have ever seen this document and whether you have ever received the letter contained in that document.
As you see, this document begins with the words:
"Honorable State Secretary, Dear Party Comrade."
The letter deals with the Nazification and the application of economic measures.
AI am taking notice of this document. I am taking it for granted that I have received this document.
QYes, you have received this; it is quite obvious. It is quite clear that the letter dealt with the question of having a special meeting under your chairmanship. Thus, is my conclusion correct that you were a very close assistant of defendant Goering on the question of the application of the Nazi economic measures and economic leadership?
AYes, at the conference mentioned.
QDo you affirm that defendant Goering at plenipotentiary of the Four Year Plan was at the head of both the civilian and the military organs which dealt with the economic exploitation of those occupied territories which Germany had and that in these economic measures you were his closest assistant. Do you affirm or deny this?
AThis conference which is mentioned in this document never took place. The problem of collaboration which arose of the economic activity of the occupied countries was met, and we never had this conference.