I also an for human rights, but if a Frenchman says 'You fellows will all be hanged and the chief of the factory will be beheaded first' and if then the chief says 'I am going to hit him', then he is in a mess. He is not protected but the poor fellow who said that to him is protected." Did you report that to the meeting?
AThat may be.
QWhat did you suggest?
AI know from memory that such cases have had occurred, that foreign workers threatened their German foreman and in the factory, and if that man fought against him then something was done against him, and I didn't think that was correct.
QNow, you provided your own remedy. Didn't you in the next line say: "I have told my engineers' I am going to punish you if you don't hit such a man. The more you do in this respect, the more I shall praise you. I shall see to it that nothing happens to you.' This is not yet sufficiently known. I cannot talk with all factory leaders. I should like to see the man who stays my arm because I can settle accounts with anybody who stays my arm." Did you find that?
AI have seen it just now, yes. I cannot remember the words in detail but my point is that it was an impossibility that a prisoner or foreign worker could say to his German foreman "We will out your threat."
QWell, do you mean to say that if a prisoner of war attempted or threatened to out his threat, that German officers would stand up for him as against the employer? You don't mean that, do you?
A (No answer).
QWell, we will go on: "If the little factory leader" -- I am still quoting from you -- "does that, he is put into a concentration camp..." Do you want to find that?
AYes, I see it.
Q "...and runs the risk of losing prisoners of war." Now, I am still quoting you and I want you to find the entry, "In one case, two Russian officers took off with an airplane but crashed. I ordered that these two men be hanged at once. They were hanged or shot yesterday. I left that to the SS. I expressed the wish to have them hanged in the factory for the others to see."
Did you find that?
AI found it, and I can only say I have never made anybody hang them nor can I give the order. I said I consider it quite impossible that I said that. I had nothing to do with this question. I do not know of any case where two Russian officers fled with the plane.
QIs there anything else you would like to say with reference to that entry?
ANo, I have nothing to say. I do not know anything about it and I don't believe it has ever been said.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:That is all that I have at the present time. BY MR. ROBERTS:
QWitness, I have some questions on behalf of the British Delegation. My first point is this: You said on Friday that beginning in 1935; an air-force was built up in Germany for defensive purposes. Do you remember that?
AYes, 1935.
QAnd do you say that it regained on a defensive basis up until December 1939?
AYes.
QI want you to listen to three pieces of evidence--speeches made by your chief, the Defendant Goering. I am quoting from the shorthand notes of the 8th of January, in the afternoon, on page 2306. In May of 1935, Goering said: "I intend to create a luftwaffe which, if the hour should strike, shall burst upon the foe like a course of revenge. The enemy must have the feeling of being lost already before even having fought." Does that sound like a defensive airforce?
ANo, that does not sound like it, but one has to separate the words from the deeds.
QI will come to the deedsin a moment.
THE PRESIDENT:If there is any more of this laughter, the court will have to be cleared.
BY MR. ROBERTS:
QOn the 8th of July 1938, Goering, addressing a number of German aircraft manufacturers, said that "War with Czechoslovakia was imminent; that the German airforce is already superior to the English airforce. If Germany wins the war, she will be the greatest power in the world, dominating the world market, and Germany will be a rich nation. To this goal risks must be taken." Does that sound like a defensive German airforce? Does it?
ANo, that certainly does not sound like it, but later I would like to say something in answer to that.
Q Please limit yourself, if you can, in the interest of time, in answering any question, which is very short.
Now may I read you one further piece of evidence, the speech made by Goering on 14 October, 1938, that is, less than a month after the Munich Pact.
"Hitler has instructed me to organize a gigantic armament program, which would make insignificant all creative achievements.
I have ordered a building as rapidly as possible of an air force five times as large."
Does that sound like a speech for defensive purposes?
AThis air force would have taken many years to build.
QI state to you such fact on that point was grossly incorrect.
I now want to come to my second point. You were present at the conference of the Service Leaders in the Chancellery on the 23 May 1939?
AWhat was the date please, if I may ask?
QI would like you to see the document, which is L-79. You did see it on Friday, I think.
AOn the 27 May, wasn't it?
QYes, that is right. I just want to remind you to ask who else was present.
There were the Fuehrer, Goering, Raeder, von Brauchitsch, Keitel, yourself, Halder, General Bodenschatz, Warlimont--was Warlimont deputy of Jodl?
AI cannot say for whom he was there.
QVery well--and others; I don't mention the names. Now, Mr. Witness, those names were leaders of the German armed forces?
AMay I say, so far as I can remember Field Marshall Goering was not present.
I cannot remember.
QHe is down there as being present. You think he was not there?
AYes. I cannot remember any more. I have my recollection that I was sent there to represent him at the last moment.
QWhatever it is about Goering, if he was not there those others were mostly leaders of the Germany army force, is that right?
A Yes. It was the Commander in Chief of the Army and the Commander in Chief of the Navy, and the OKW, yes.
QWould you describe them form your knowledge of then as men of honor?
AYes.
QIs it one of the qualities of men of honor that he keeps his word?
AYes.
QYou knew, of course, did you not, that Germany had pledged her word to respect the neutrality of Belgium and the Netherlands, and Luxembourg?
AI assume so. I did not know the agreement, but I assume so.
QDid not you know that less than a month before that meeting, namely, 28 April, Hitler in the Reichstag gave an assurance of his respect for the neutrality of a large number of countries, European countries, including the three I have mentioned?
Did you not know that as a matter of history?
AI assume that, yes.
QWe have seen the film, you know, in the court, of that very course, that the Defendant Goering presided as President of the Reichstag that day that assurance was given.
AI have not seen the film. I do not know the film.
QYes. It is a German newsreel. Do you remember that at that conference Hitler said these words, which are well known to the Tribunal:
"The Dutch and the Belgian air bases must be occupied by the armed forces.
Hitler's notions of neutrality must be ignored.
An effort must be made to deal the enemy a significant or final decisive blow right at the start.
Considerations of right and wrong, or treaties do not enter into the matter."
Do you remember those words being said?
AI cannot remember exactly what the words were. I know that that dealt with the question of the Polish Corridor, and of Danzig, where Hitler explained what to do with the property we cone into, when we come into it, and what he intends to do, but as to what he said in detail I do not remember.
QWas any protest made by any of these honorable men at the breach of Germany's pledge of her word?
ADuring this meeting it was impossible for anyone present to speak at all.
Hitler sat behind his desk, and in front he made the speech, and after the speech he walked away.
The discussion did not take place, and was not being admitted by him.
QAnd was it impossible for the honorable men to protect his honor, Mr. Witness?
AI cannot exactly remember the words that Hitler said, such as it is shown here.
QCan you give the Tribunal your opinion of it?
AIn this meeting I was not under the impression he had said anything at all which was against the obligations which we had taken upon ourselves.
That I cannot remember.
QWill you now say that those minutes are wrong?
ANo, I cannot say that. I can only say I have no recollection of any detail as to the words.
Whether the minutes are correct I do not know.
As much as I know they have been edited later by one of the adjutants present.
QBecause we know that is what exactly Germany did twelve months after, to break their pledge of word to the Netherlands and Luxembourg, and brought miser and death to millions.
You know that now, don't you?
AThat I know, yes, but as soldiers we had nothing to do with the political question.
We were not asked about them.
QDo you call the honoring of-
DR. RUDOLPH DIX:I speak not for the Defendant Schacht, but for the entire Defense.
I ask the Tribunal and say that the witness may be asked a fact, and not for moral judgment.
THE PRESIDENT: He is being asked about facts.
DR. DIX:Sir?
THE PRESIDENT:I said he was being asked about facts. BY MR. ROBERTS:
AYou have just said that you know now--we know that twelve months later Germany violated the neutrality of Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg.
ABut we do not know for what reason that happened, and whatever the Government of the country has taken up was not a job of the soldiers to judge that.
QWas not it a job of the soldier to object if he was asked to break his country's word.
AIf he breaks this word, in his letters where he is a soldier he has not anything to say whatever. I agree and say that on foreign territory where the soldier could not overlook, and about which a soldier does not know anything, he cannot be held responsible for such a question.
QYou can only speak of your own knowledge. Are you saying that you do not know that your country was pledged to observe the neutrality of these three small countries?
A That I have read in the Reichstag the speech, but I did not make known how the other side had reacted to that promise at the time known to me.
It could be quite possible that the other side to use this guarantee, did not want this guarantee at all for a protection. The soldier can not see that clearly. Only the political leadership could know about that.
QWell, we perhaps will have to ask that of the soldiers in the high command, who are now in the Dock, when they get in the witness box. But I put it to you that it must have been common knowledge in Germany that Hitler was giving guarantees and assurances to all these smaller countries?
AHitler has proposed and offered to make many things. He offered for all countries limitation of armaments. He offered not to use any bombing planes, but his proposals in these cases, they were not accepted, therefore, any political leadership had to know what they should demand from their soldiers, and get response from their soldiers. The soldiers of the line have only to judge and to obey.
QAnswer my question. That was not an answer to my question. I take the facts now Mr. Witness from the documents, from your own German documents. I want just your knowledge and your idea of honor. Did you not think it grossly dishonorable to give the pledge on 28 April, and to make a secret resolution to break it on the 23 of May?
AYou are right, if the situation has not changed in conditions, the conditions have not changed in any way, and that is my judgment.
QYou must have your own code of honor, even though you are in the service.
THE PRESIDENT:I don't think so. BY MRE. ROBERTS:
Very well, I will not acquire an answer to that. Very well. THE WITNESS; I do not even understand his question
QYou know, of course, that the neutrality anyway was violated?
AYes, but according to our knowledge, or our opinion it was violated twice.
QDo you know that on the 12th and 13th of March 1940, Jodl was putting in his diary, "The Fuehrer is still looking for excuse to give to the world for invasion of Norway." Do you know that?
A I do not know of that diary and that entry.
QYou took part actually in the invasion of Norway, did you not?
AA few days after the beginning of the invasion I was leading the air force there for a short time.
QYou had actually a command in Norway?
AYes.
DR. HERMANN JAHREISS: Dr. Jahrreiss, for the defendant Jodl. I consider it necessary to make a clarification, which may be made from the misinterpretation or mistranslation. I have just heard about the entry by Jodl in his diary, and a re-translation from the German as coming from the Fuehrer, "Is still looking for an excuse," and in the German text it shows "A reason for justification." I also believe that justification is in the English translation, and that it should not be translated by outrage pretext or excuse. That is an entirely different thing.
MR. ROBERTS: Whatever it is, why that reads as the translation of his witness. Would you agree that according to the entry in the diary, the Fuehrer was still looking for it, whether it was a reason or an excuse. Nov I only want to ask you one more question on this side of the case.
QYou know that Belgrade was bombed in I think April 1941?
AI have heard about that from the Array report at the time.
QWithout any declaration of war, or any warning to the civilian population at all, you heard that?
AThat I do not know, no.
QHave not you discussed it with Goering?
AAbout the attack on Belgrade? No, I can not remember.
QDid not he even express himself in regard, shall we say, a large bombing to a large capital without even one hour warning to the civilian population?
AThat to my knowledge I can not remember of any such conversation.
QThat is murder, isn't it?
A (No answer)
QYou would rather not answer that question?
AI can not answer that yes or no, because I do not know the conditions which lead to the attack. I do not know whether the war was declared. I do not know whether the warning took place.
Neither do I know whether Belgrade was a fortress.
Neither do I know what part was attacked in Belgrade. I know of so many bombing attacks of which it could be said the same thing, that could be said.
QThe question, Mr. Witness, that unless we had the use of the document in front of us, it was Hitler's order that Belgrade was to be suddenly destroyed by waves of bombers, without any ultimatum, or any diplomatic movement, or negotiations at all; would I put that question if I had not known of the document. Let me turn to something else.
AMay I say I thought of this the first time today by your words of this document.
QI want to put to you now on the incident with regard to the Camp Stalag Luft 3 at Sagan. Do you know about what I am talking?
AYes, I know about that now.
QDo you know on 24 and 25 March 1944, about eight air force officers, British, Dominian, and other escaped from that Stalag Luft 3 camp?
AI know about the case from the British camp in which I was kept, where the entire case was displayed on the wall,
QI may say, we cannot but help know it in a moment. Did you know that officers, eight or sixty, were shot?
AYes.
QIn various parts of Germany -- only the occupied country extending from Danzig to Saarbruecken; you heard of that?
AI have heard that about fifty were killed. I do not know where.
QHave you heard that quite unusual the bodies were never seen again, but that urns said to contain their ashes were brought back to the camp, you heard of that?
AThat could be seen from the speech of Mr. Eden, who was in the Lower House, and I found that out in the camp whore I was,
QYou heard that, although these officers were reported by your Government as having been shot while offering resistance, or trying to escape, yet, not one was wounded, and all sixty were shot dead.
AThose I only heard of by public announcement in Germany, that these officers while they were trying to resist, or trying to escape, had been shot. We did not believe it in that form, and about this point there was much dis cussion among ourselves without knowing any of their facts.
We were afraid that murder had been committed.
QYou were afraid that murder had been committed. It does appear likely, doesn't it?
AWe gained this impression after we heard all the details.
QIt is quite clear that if that was murder the order for that murder would have to come from a high level, isn't it?
ASurely, certainly. Further, more details I have heard from General Westhoff about these cases, while I was in captivity together with him in England.
QNow, I want to ask you, first of all, about the prisoner of war organization.
Was the prisoner of war organization a department of the OKW?
AIn my opinion, yes.
QWhich was called KGW, Kriegsgefangenen Wesen?
AI cannot say any more about it, because I don't know how it was.
I only knew that there was a chief of the Kriegsgefangenen Wesen with the OKW.
QWas the chief of the Kriegsgefangenen Wesenat that time General Major von Graevenitz?
AVon Graevenitz, yes.
QThis was an air force camp? Stalag Luft 3 was an air force camp?
AYes. It had such a name that I was convinced that all prisoners were under the OKW.
That was my attitude, my opinion. I cannot say more about it because I did not know much about that organization.
QWas the directorate for supervising the air force camps, or the inspectorate, rather, called Inspectorate No. 17?
AThere was an inspectorate, an inspection, which for this question was installed according to the name.
What they had to do and what tasks they had, I cannot say.
Whether it was just for examination or anything else, I would not know.
QWas the head of that General Major Grosch?
A Grosch?
QGrosch.
AI cannot say. It is possible. I know the name, but I do not know whether he held that position.
QAnd the second in command, Oberst Waelde?
AIt is not known to me.
QYou were No. 2 in the air force at the Air Ministry in March 1944, were you not?
AThere were more number 2's at that time. I was in the same rank as the chief of staff, the chief of the personnel office, and the chief of technical armament, which were independent of ours and were working beside me, but according to the rank I was the second highest officer in the air force.
QWas there a conference in Berlin on the morning of Saturday, the 25th of March, about this escape?
AI cannot remember.
QDid not Goering speak to you about that conference?
AI have no recollection; I cannot remember that.
QDid Goering never tell you that there was a conference between Hitler, Himmler, himself and Keitel on that Saturday morning?
ANo. I do not know anything about that. I could not remember anything.
QAt which the order for the murder of these recaptured prisoners of war was given?
ANo, I know absolutely nothing about that. According to the descriptions which I have received later, it was entirely different.
About this I received information from General Westhoff and also from General Bodenschatz.
QGeneral Westhoff we are going to see here as a witness. He has made a statement about the matter saying
AI beg you to excuse me. I could not hear just now.
QGeneral Westhoff-
A Yes.
Q --has made a statement-
AYes.
Q --and we are going to see him as a witness.
AYes.
QSo perhaps I had better not put his statement to you, because he is going to give evidence.
Perhaps that would be fairer from the point of view of the Defense.
But are you suggesting that these officers, if they were murdered, to use yourwords, having escaped from an air force camp, that action could have been taken without the knowledge of Goering?
AI consider it absolutely possible in the great confusion which existed in highest places at that time.
QHigh confusion in March 1944?
ADuring the entire time already there was terrible confusion.
QBut it is quite clear-
AHitler mixed into all questions, and gave his orders over the heads of the Wehrmacht or by himself.
QBut did you never discuss this matter with Goering at all?
ANo. I cannot remember that I ever spoke to Goering about these questions.
QDon't you think this is a matter which reflects shame on the armed forces of Germany?
AYes, that is a great shame.
QYet Goering never spoke to you about it at all? Did you ever speak to Keitel?
AMay I say that during that time I have met Goering practically at no time.
QDid you over speak to Keitel about it?
ANo, never. I saw Keitel even more seldom than Goering.
QWasn't there a General Foster or Foerster at the Air Ministry?
AYes, there was such a gentleman.
Q General Foerster?
AYes.
QWas he Director of Operations?
ANo. He was, according to the German name, chief of the Luftwehr, and as such he had to deal with personnel replacements in connection with the General Staff and the Reichsmarshal, but during wartime he was in charge of the civil aviation, and regarding civil aviation he worked together with me, but during the war-
QI was going to ask you, did he ever mention this shooting to you?
AI have been asked about that once before, but much as I may try I cannot remember. It is not impossible that in the course of a conversation he may have told me that officers had been killed. If, and in what sense, he may have told me, I do not remember. I have not received an official report through him. It would not have been correct.
QIf Foerster told you, did you ever report it to Goering?
AI cannot remember the conversation with Foerster. Therefore, I do not believe that I have talked to him about it. He did not give me a report which I could have given to Goering--passed or to Goering--but this report would have gone directly from him or through other channels much quicker to Goering.
QDid you take any steps to prevent this shooting being carried out?
AWhen I heard about it for the first time, I could not get clear picture, but even if I had had a clear picture of it then from the words of Westhoff it is clear to me that it would have been much too late.
QWhy too late?
ABecause, first, Westhoff knew about it first of all when he found out, and he was told already that the order had been execution But I may point out that General Westhoff testified to that and will testify to that.
QVery well, you never went to Goering at all on the matter as you say?
AI don't know anything about that.
QNow I am going to deal with three short points further. With regard to the use of labor for the armament industry, Mr. Justice Jackson has asked you questions on that. Was labor from concentration camps used?
AYes.
QWould you just look at 1584-PS: that is shorthand note 1357, 12th of December, in the afternoon.
(A document is handed to the witness).
Is that a teletype from Goering to Himmler, dated the 14th of Februar 1944?
There are various code numbers; then, to Reichsfuehrer SS; that was Himmler, Reichsminister Himmler.
Who actually sent that teletype? It is signed by Goering, but he wouldn't be dealing with questions of labor, would he; or would he?
AI could not say, I could not say who actually sent it.
QThat was a subject with which you dealt, was it not, the position of labor for air armament?
AOnly as long as I had to do with air armament I have sent the demands for labor to the respective officers, but this telegram did not come from my office.
QIf it didn't come from your office, whose office did it come from?
AThere are a few things here. First -
QFrom whose office did it come?
AI cannot say that offhand.
QVery well.
AI don't know.
QSecond sentence: At the same time I ask you to put at my disposal as great a number of concentration camp convicts as possible for air armament, as this kind of manpower proved to be very useful according to previous experiments. You had frequently used concentration camp labor, had you?
A During the last time, yes. This is of the 15th. May I ask about the month of the telegram?
QYes, I told you witness, 14 of February, 1944. It is on the top.
AYes, I couldn't read it.
QNo, I quite understand. And did Himmler respond by providing you with ninety thousand further concentration camp prisoners? I refer to 1584 PS Number 3, dated 9 March, 1944. It is to the "Most honored Reichsmarshal" from Himmler. It says:
"At the present time 36,000 prisoners are employed for the purpose of the Air Force. Increase to a total number of ninety thousand prisoners is contemplated."
Then he refers in the last paragraph:-- "The movement of manufacturing plants of the aviation industry to subterranean locations requires a further employment of about one hundred thousand prisoners."
Now, those were concentration camp internees, witness.
(The witness was handed a document)
AYes, I see that from that letter.
QYou said you were almost innocent of the conditions reigning in concentration camps.
ANo, I don't know about that.
QYou have not seen the films when the camps were captured?
ANo.
QThe grim contrast -- just wait a moment -- the grim contrast between the plump and well-fed guards and civilians and the skeletons of the internees?
AI have not seen the film but I have seen photographs in England.
QDid you close your eyes deliberately to what was going on in Germany?
ANo, there was no possibility for us to see that.
QYou, in your position, could not know what was going on?
AIt was absolutely impossible.
QNow then, I just want to deal very shortly with a matter upon which Mr. Justice Jackson touched but he did not read the letter. That is the question of the experiments for the purpose of Air Force research. I am anxious to refer to as few documents as possible but I can give the reference.
Do you know that on the 15 of May, 1941, and the reference is shorthand note 1848, 1602-PS, that Dr. Rascher wrote to Himmler?
AI did not knew about that. I think I have told that recently during the interrogations.
QHe had very dangerous experiments for which no human would volunteer; monkeys were not suitable and so he asked for human subjects and Himmler at once provided, said he would be glad to provide human subjects for the experiment. Now that was in 1941. Did you know that was taking place?
ANo. I did not know anything about that.
QNow, Rascher was -
AI did not knew Rascher personally.
QHe was a doctor on the staff of the Air Force.
THE PRESIDENT:But, Mr. Roberts, this is not a letter to this witness, is it?
MR. ROBERTS:My Lord, I am leading up. The next letter is a letter signed by this witness. That was preliminary. Perhaps I had better come to the letter which he signed now. I am much obliged. BY MR. ROBERTS:
QI want to put to you now 343 PS and I also want to put to you, if the officer in charge of the documents would be so good, I want to put to you 687 PS (the witness was handed a document)
THE PRESIDENT:He has already been cross examined upon this letter, has he not?
MR. ROBERTS:I didn't Hunk the letter was read or was dealt with sufficiently. I believe you Lordship thinks it was.
THE PRESIDENT:The letter was put to him. I do not know whether it was actually read.
MR. ROBERTS:I shall be guided by the Court entirely. I know the matter was touched upon. I felt perhaps the letter should be read but I may be quite wrong.
THE PRESIDENT:I am told it was not read but the two letters were put to him.
MR. ROBERTS:I agree.
If your Lordship would be good enough to bear with me for a very few minutes I can perhaps deal with the matters I think should be dealt with.
BY MR. ROBERTS:
QYou will see that on the 20th of may, 1942 -- this is your letter to "Wolffy", isn't it, that is Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff, and that is signed by you isn't it?
AYes, I have signed it. That is the letter which, as I said this morning, was presented to me by the Medical Inspection and form which it can be seen that we wanted to withdraw form that whole affair but it just had a polite form.
QThe point of the letter is, if I may summarize it, that you saY:
"In reference to your telegram of the 12 of May, our Sanitary Inspector" -- that is probably not very well translated.
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Roberts, if I remember right, when these letters were put to the witness he said he had not read them; that he signed then without reading them.
MR. ROBERTS:Well, my Lord, perhaps I had better leave the matter if your Lordship thinks I am going over ground which has been trodden too often. BY MR. ROBERTS:
QAre you asking this Tribunal to believe that you signed these two letters to Wolff, who was liaison officer, was he not, between -- who was Wolff?
ANo, Wolff was no liaison officer. He was the adjutant of Himmler and according to this he had sent a telegram to us, apparently directly to the Sanitation Inspector and now this man answers through me, I could not say for what reason, but because it did not seem practical that he should answer directly.
I have said in the interrogations that I have signed these letters; that these letters, however, did not come from my office, were not dictated in my office but that they were written on my stationery.
That was generally done as an answer of the Sanitaetsinspektion. I had nothing to do with our experiments with the Luftwaffe, with altitude, pressure chambers or undercooling or sanitation inspection, or anything as to experiments of the SS.
QDid you know that these pressure chamber experiments were being carried out with human bodies, human souls, provided by Dachau?
AWith whom it was done, that can be seen from the letter which the Sanitaetsinspektor presented to me. We made these experiments with our own officers in the Luftwaffe, who volunteered for it and we considered it as our affair that we were doing the experiments only with our own people on a voluntary basis. Therefore, we did not want the SS to make any experiments because the results which came from them did not interest us. The experimentshad already been made with our own men a long time ago. We did not need that at all. The SS was trying to meddle in a subject which they had nothing to do with and we did not understand why the SS wanted to do it.
QDid not Himmler write you a letter -- the reference is shorthand note 1852 -- in November, 1942 (that is document 1617-PS) in which he says:
"Dear Milch: Experiments have been carried out, both high pressure and cold water experiments --" and that he, Himmler, provided asocial persons and criminals from concentration camps? Do you remember that letter?
AThis letter was shown to me and I have no recollection of this letter. I do not know why Himmler wrote to me at all. These letters went from my office, without my seeing them, to the respective office, that is Sanitaetsinspektion. From there the answer came via my office but I was not in a position to say anything about it because I did not know what it was all about nor could I judge from the medical point of view what they were doing.