M. DUBOST: The Defense used certain terms in putting a question to the French witness, certain words that are translatable literally by "for the major part."
This had to do with the character of the French deportees.
"Were they for the most part common criminals?"
That was the question. The witness understood, as I did:
"Did you say that they were criminals?" and not that the convoys were for the most part composed of criminals.
His reply was "Normal," and he said, "I so stated."
The Tribunal will allow me to ask the witness if he can state what proportion of common criminals there were then; what proportions of patriots there were among the deportees; whether he himself was a common criminal, or patriot, or whether in a general way the criminals in another way were criminals or patriots?
AThe proportion of common criminals in the French groups was extremely small.
The common criminal came in one convoy coming from Fort Barreaux.
I cannot indicate the exact figure, but on the whole of the internees a few hundred; that is all.
Moreover, in other convoys there arrived in the proportion of two to three per thousand, where they were introduced in our convoys.
There were, therefore, so few common law criminals in our transports.
THE PRESIDENT:The witness can retire.
M.Dubost, are you proposing or asking to call other witnesses on concentration camps because, as I have already pointed out to you, the evidence, with the exception of Dr. Babel's recent cross examination, has practically now been cross-examined, and it is supported by other film evidence.
We are instructed by Article 18 of the Charter to conduct the trial in as expeditious a way as possible, and I will point out to you, as ordered under 24-E under the Charter, you have the opportunity of calling rebutting evidence, if it were necessary, and, therefore, if the evidence which has been so fully gone into as to the condition in concentration camps-Is what I say not coming through to you?
M. DUBOST: I probably do not understand correctly, because the witness that I would like the Tribunal to hear is going to bring some testimony on a specific point which has been held in abeyance for several weeks.
The Tribunal will remember that at the beginning our American colleague--the problem arose of knowing whether Kaltenbrunner had gone to Mauthausen.
I am going to bring a witness who is going to prove to the Tribunal that Kaltenbrunner had gone at that time.
This witness took the pictures, and the Tribunal may wish to hear him and we shall show the pictures.
(FRANCOIS BOIX took the stand.)
BY THE PRESIDENT:
QWhat is your name?
AFrancois Boix.
QAre you French?
AI am a Spanish refugee.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me. I swear to speak without hate nor fear, to say the truth, all the truth, only the truth. (The witness repeated the oath)
THE PRESIDENT:Raise your right hand and say, "I swear".
THE WITNESS:I swear.
THE PRESIDENT:You may sit down.
M.Dubost, will you spell the name.
M. DUBOST: B-O-I-X. BY M. DUBOST:
QYou were born 14 August 1920?
AYes.
QIn what place?
AIn Barcelona.
QYou are a photographic reporter?
AI am.
QAnd you were interned in the camp of Mauthausen?
AYes.
QSince when?
ASince the 27th of January 1941.
QYou delivered to the inquirers a certain number of photographies which are going to be projected on the screen and you will state under oath under what circumstances and where these pictures were taken?
AI am ready to do so.
QHow did you obtain these photographs.
AAs a result of my profession I went to the camp at Mauthausen and I worked in the identity service of the camp. The service was that of photography, where the SS were certain of licking the whole world and they took pictures of everything taking place in the camp to send to the High Command.
QWhat is this picture before you?
AThat is the view of the quarry, that is, the general aspect of the quarry.
QIs this where the internees were working?
AThe majority of the intennees.
QWhere is the stairway?
AIn the rear.
QHow many steps?
AAt that time the stairway had about 160 steps. It was then rebuilt and there were 186.
QWe can proceed with the next picture.
AThis is a courtyard of the quarry during a visit of Reichsfuehrer Himmler, Kaltenbrunner, Fritz Kornacz, and a few other leaders whose names are unknown to me. I took that picture from seventeen meters from the top. There were 2,000 war prisoners working in there each day.
QWe proceed with the next picture. What is this picture?
AThis was in 1941, in April. My Spanish comrades, Spanish refugees in France who were pushing the lorries.
QAnd this picture was taken by whom?
ABy Paul Ricken, a professor from Essen, who was assistant leader of the SS.
QWe may proceed with the next picture.
AThis was a masquerade with an Austrian who had escaped. The one who had escaped worked in the garage and he took a box where it was possible for him to hide. He got outside the camp and then he was recaptured. Then they put him on a wheelbarrow which they used to carry the bodies to the crematorium. There were some signs in German which said, "All birds come home to roost." Then he was paraded in front of the 10,000 deportees and there was the band of the Gypsies who at that time were playing the tune of "J 'attendrai", and then he continued to swing after he was hanged, and at that moment the Gypsy band played the "Beer Barrel Polka".
A (Referring to new slide) This is the parade. On the right and the left you can see the deportees. On the left are the Spaniards.
The fellow who is in front with the beret is a common law criminal from Berlin by the name of Schulz, who was used for this sort of spectacle.
In the rear you can see the man who is about to be hanged.
QNext picture. Who took this picture?
AThese were taken by SS Oberscharfuehrer Fritz Kornacz. He was jailed by American forces in Holland in 1944. This is a Russian who was forced to climb on the barbed wire to make believe that he was seeking to escape, then they shot him in the head.
QThe next picture.
AHere you can see two Dutch Jews. That is the quarantine barracks in the rear. On the very day of their arrival they were frequently forced to hurl themselves against the barbed wire because they realized that there would be no escape.
QThese pictures were taken by whom?
AAt this time it was Paul Ricken, a professor from Essen, assistant SS leader.
(Referring to new slide) These are Dutch Jews. You can see the red star that they were wearing. That was supposedly an attempt to escape.
QIn reality what was it?
AThe SS sent them to pick up stones near the barbed wire, and the guards were all around the camps, and they would shoot among them, because they received a premium for every man whom they brought down.
Q (Referring to new slide) What is that picture?
AThat is a Russian Jew. That was in 1942, at the time the Russian camp, the so-called Russian camp, was built, which later became the sanitary camp. He was hanged with the string which he used to hold up his trousers.
QWas it suicide?
ASupposedly.
QWhat is it?
AIt was a man pushed to desperation because of the beatings and the hard labor to which he was subjected and who could see no way out.
QWho took that picture?
AFritz Kornacz was the man who took the picture. He was assistant SS leader.
Q (Referring to new slide) What is this picture?
AThis is a Jew also. I don't knew the nationality. He was in the so-called quarantine block, reserved for the Jews. He was put in a barrel full of water, and then he was beaten nearly to the point of death. Then he was given ten minutes to hang himself. He utilized his own belt to do that. Failing to do so, he knew full well what would await him.
QWho took that picture?
A Paul Ricken again, assistant SS leader.
Q (Referring to new slide) And what is this?
AThere you see the Viennese police visiting the quarry. This was in the month of June or July 1941. You can see two of my Spanish comrades there.
QWhat is happening?
AThey are showing to the policemen the manner in which they had to lift the stones because they had no other means to lift those stones.
QDid you know any policemen among these who visited there?
ANo, because they came only once. We only had time to have a look at them.
(Referring to new slide) That is in September 1944. No, I am sorry, 1943. It was the birthday of an SS leader. He is surrounded by the whole staff of Mauthausen camp. I can give you practically all the names of those who are there on the picture.
(Referring to new slide) That is Ziehreiss, also for his birthday, taken on the same day. Paul Ricken of Essen is also there, another SS assistant leader, adjutant to the former. I am sorry. The adjutant belonged to the Wehrmacht, and when he came into the camp he put on the SS uniform.
Q (Referring to new slide) Who is that?
AThat is the same visit of the police officials in June or July 1941. This is the door to the kitchen. This is a deportee of the disciplinary company. He carried stones as heavy as 80 kilos until he was exhausted.
Very few men ever emerged from the disciplinary company.
(Referring to new slide) That is for the visit of Himmler in April 1941 at the home of the leaders at Camp Mauthausen. There is the governor of Linz, Heilgruber next to him to the left, Sturmbannfuehrer Ziehreiss, who was the commanding officer of Mauthausen.
(Referring to new slide) This is in the quarry. In the rear to the left you can see a group of workers there. The fellow who is pointing is Ziehreiss. Next to him is Himmler, and to the left of him, the man on the left, Kaltenbrunner. He was wearing one of the insignia of the Party. This is in the quarry.
QThis was taken by whom?
A In the quarry. This was at the time of Paul Ricken, sometime around April or May 1941.
At that time this man frequently came to the camp to see how similar camps could be organized in Germany and in the occupied countries.
QYou are quite certain that is Kaltenbrunner?
AI affirm it.
QAnd this picture was taken at the camp?
AI so affirm.
QYou were taken to Mauthausen as a prisoner of war?
AWhat?
QYou were a prisoner of war?
AI was a prisoner of war.
QYou had fought as a volunteer in the French Army?
AI was a volunteer, as were most of the Spanish refugees in the French Army, in different places, either in Commando groups or in the Foreign Legion or in the labor companies for the Army. I was in the area of Vosges with the French Army. We were in retreat down to Belfort where I was taken prisoner during the night of the 20th to the 21st of June 1940. I was put together with a few other Spanish friends, and we were transferred to Muelhausen. We were all former Spanish Republicans. We were reputed to be anti-Fascist, and we were put with the Communists. Then we were considered along with them as sub-human.
We were for six months considered as prisoners of war, and at that time we realized that M. Sorano Sonier, foreign minister of Spain, had an interview with Hitler to deal with the problem of Spanish deportees. We heard that our own fate had been discussed by these people. They had specifically inquired about what disposition should be made of the Spanish prisoners. These Spaniards were Republicans. They belonged to the Republican Army.
QSo although you were a prisoner of war you were sent to a camp under the control of the Army. Was it under the control of the Army?
AWe were in Muelhausen as prisoners of war. Then we were to work in a commando like all the other Frenchmen. Then we were transferred to Mauthausen. We saw that there were no soldiers of the Wehrmacht, and they were SS men guarding us.
Then we understood that we were in an extermination camp.
QHow many of you were there?
AThere were several hundred.
QIn all, how many were there of you Spaniards?
AAbout 8,000.
QHow many were there when you left?
AAbout 1600 left.
QI have no more questions to ask.
THE PRESIDENT:Do you want to ask any questions?
GEN. RUDENKO:I shall have some questions. If the President will permit me I shall propound them in tomorrow's session.
THE PRESIDENT:We will adjourn now.
(Whereupon at 1700 hours the hearing of the Tribunal adjourned).
Official transcript of the International Military Tribunal in the matter of:
The United States of America, the French Re public, the United Kingdom of Great Bri tain and Northern Ireland, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, against Hermann Wilhelm Goering, et al, Defen dants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 29 January 1946, 1000-1245, Lord Justice Lawrence presiding.
COURT OFFICER:May it please the Court, I desire now to say that the defendant Kaltenbrunner will be absent from this morning's session on account of illness.
M. DUBOST:In my capacity as representative of the French prosecution, I wish to ask the Tribunal to consider this request. The witnesses that were interrogated yesterday are to be cross-examined by the defense. It takes 30 hours to return to Paris. We would like to know whether we are to keep them here, and, if the defense really has the intention of cross questioning them, we should like to proceed with that as quickly as possible in order to insure their return to France.
THE PRESIDENT:In view of what you said yesterday, M. Dubost, I said on behalf of the Tribunal that Dr. Babel might have the opportunity of cross examining one of your witnesses within the next two days. Is Dr. Babel ready to cross examine that witness now?
DR. BABEL:No. Mr. President, I have not yet received a copy of his testimony and consequently have not been in a position to prepare my cross examination. It was a relatively short time from yesterday to today. Therefore, I cannot make a definite statement today. If I had an opportunity during the course of the day to read the statement of his testimony -
THEPRESIDENT (interposing): Well, that witness must stay until tomorrow afternoon, M. Dubost, but the other witnesses can go.
M.Dubost, will you see, if you can, that a copy of the shorthand notes is furnished to Dr. Babel as soon as possible, the shorthand notes of that witness' evidence.
M. DUBOST:Yes, Mr. President.
FRANCOIS BOIX returned to the stand.
M. DUBOST: Last evening we projected sic pictures which were brought to us by the witness who is now before you and on which he offered his comments.
This witness specifically stated under what conditions the photograph representing Kaltenbrunner in the quarry of Mauthausen had been taken. We place these photographs under No. 332 as a French document.
Will you allow me to formulate one more question to the witness and I shall be through with him. BY M. DUBOST:
QWith respect to the essential point in this statement, do you recognize anyone among the visitors at the camp of Mauthausen?
AMr. Speer.
QWhen did you see him?
AHe was in the camp of Kuschin in 1943. It was a construction camp near Mauthausen. I was in the identity service of the camp. In the course of those visits, the leaders took a whole picture of this visit and I developed that picture, and on the film I recognize Speer with other leaders. He was dressed in a light suit.
QYou saw that on the pictures that you developed?
AYes, on the pictures that I did develop, and because afterward you had to write the names and the dates because there were many SS who wanted to have copies of such pictures.
THE PRESIDENT:I think the witness was going a little bit too fast. I think he had better repeat that. BY M. DUBOST:
QWill you please repeat that you recognized Speer on pictures that you developed.
AI recognized Speer on 36 pictures what were taken by Paul Ricken in 1943 during his visit at the camp of Kuschin and in the quarry of Mauthausen. He always looked extremely pleased on those pictures. There were even pictures where he shook hands to congratulate one of the assistant Nazi leaders of the camps.
QOne last question. Was there any service of chaplains in your camp?
How did the interned die who wanted the assistance of religion as they passed away?
Were there any chaplains in your camp?
AYes, there were several. Of those that I can speak of, there were some German Catholics.
QDid the administration of the camp officially grant to the internees the right to practice their religion?
ANo, it was absolutely forbidden, even to live.
QWere there any Catholic chaplains or were there any Protestant pastors?
AMost of them were Protestants. I don't know much about this.
QHow were priests and pastors treated?
AThere was no difference between them and ourselves. They were fed as we were. They were, at times, sent to the gas chamber, at times sent to work, sometimes plunged in freezing water. The Germans knew that they were not people who could perform the labor that could be exacted from other camp inmates, and that is the way they treated the intellectuals of all countries.
QThey were not allowed to exercise their ministry?
ANo, not at all.
QDid the men who died have the assistance of a chaplain before they died, on being executed?
ANo, they did not. At times, rather than being assisted by anyone in respect to religious matters, they would rather be beaten with bludgeons by the SS. I can mention the case of a few officers and political kommissars and prisoners of war.
M. DUBOST:I have no further questions to ask of the witness. BY GENERAL RUDENKO:
QWitness, will you be so kind as to tell us what you know about the extermination of Soviet prisoners,
AI am glad to be interrogated on this subject in detail. I know so many things that I could scarcely speak of them.
QI would like to have you tell us specifically and briefly what you know about it.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness' evidence isn't coming through to some of the defense counsel.
Is it coming through to any of the defense counsel? I understand it is coming just to some and not to others. BY GENER AL RUDENKO:
QThen I would like to ask you, Witness, to tell us briefly in principal what you know about the extermination of Soviet war prisoners in the camp where you were.
AThe arrival of the first prisoners of war took place in 1941, in November. They had announced the arrival of 2,000 Russian prisoners of war. They took the same precautions as in the case of the Republican Spanish prisoners of war. They put machine guns everywhere.
As soon as the Russian prisoners of war entered the camp, they said that they were in frightful condition. They were human rags. They were placed in the barracks, 1,600 in each barracks. They were 7 meters wide by 104 meters long. They had no clothing. They could only keep one pair of drawers and two shirts. It should be emphasized that this was in November and it was 10 degrees below zero in Mauthausen.
Upon their arrival, there were a hundred or more who died in walking from the station to the camp of Mauthausen.
The same system was applied to them as was applied to the Spanish prisoners of war. They applied the same methods to them. They left them somewhat lone, but without anything to eat. At the end of four weeks they were already exhausted, and then the elimination procedure was applied to them. They were sent to labor under the worst conditions. They were struck and beaten and humiliated. At the end of three months, out of 2,000 Russian PW's, there were only 30 survivors. Of these 30 pictures were taken for a photographic document. I am prepared to show those pictures if they are accepted.
QYou do have this picture?
A M.Dubost knows about that, yes. M. Dubost has it.
QThank you.
What do you know about executions of Jugoslavs and Poles?
AThe Poles came to the camp in 1939, from the moment of the defeat of Poland. They received the same treatment as we did. At that time there were only German common criminals in there.
Then the work of the extermination was begun.
There were tens of thousands of Poles who died under frightful conditions.
It should be emphasized that the Jugoslavs started coming in convoys. They were dressed in civilian clothes. They wore steel helmets and 165 came in the first lot. After that they came in small groups of 20 to 30, and 60, and even women came then. Among the four women that were once shot, it was the first time that any internees had spat upon the face of the camp fuehrer before dying. They suffered more than any nationality. Their position was comparable to that of the Russians, Until the very end they were massacred by every imaginable means. They did as many things to them as they did to the Russians.
QDo I understand correctly that the concentration camp was really an extermination camp?
AIt was Mauthausen Concentration Camp, Third Echelon, that is to say, the last echelon. That is, it was a camp from which no one was to come out.
GENERAL RUDENKO:I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does Counsel for Great Britain desire to cross examine?
COLONEL PHILLIMORE:No questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Counsel for the United States?
MR. DODD:No questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Do any counsel for the Defendants wish to cross examine: BY DR. BABEL (Counsel for SS, SD):
QWitness, how were you identified in the camp?
AThe number? What, if you please? What kind of a brand?
QThe prisoners had insignia of various colors, of red, green, yellow, and so forth. What did you wear?
AEverybody wore insignia. Some wore stars; some wore triangles. There was also a letter which indicated the nationality. The Jews -
QWhat color were you characterized by?
AI had a blue one with an R, blue with an R in it.
QWere you a Kapo?
AI was an interpreter at first. Then I was in the identity service.
QWhat were your tasks and duties there?
AAt first, as interpreter, there were practically no Spaniards who could speak German and my work was to translate the barbarities which the SS caused me to say all the time. Then my work was that of a photographer, charged with developing the pictures which maintained the full story of what happened in the camp.
QWhat was the policy with regard to visitors? Did visitors go only to the inner camp or did they also go to the places of work?
AThe visitors went everywhere in the camp. Therefore, it was impossible for them not to know what was going on there. Only when there were magistrates or other such visitors from Poland, Austria, Slovakia, and all of that, then they allowed them to visit only the better parts of the camp. They would look for the cooks and they would look for the criminal inmates who were fat and healthy locking and they would show them to the visitors, saying that all inmates were the same.
QWere the prisoners forbidden to communicate to the outer world anything regarding the conditions in the camp?
AIt was so completely forbidden that if anyone was caught at it, it was not merely a question of being put to death, but of being tortured and reprisal being exercised on members of his nationality.
QWhat did you observe about the behaviour of the Kapos? How did they behave toward their fellow prisoners?
AAt times they were really worthy of being SS themselves. To be a Kapo, you had to be a pure Aryan. That means that they had a martial bearing. Therefore, they considered that they had the right to treat us like animals. The SS gave them carte blanche to do what they willed with us. Thus it was that at liberation the prisoners and deportees executed all the Kapos on whom they could lay their hands. Before that, the majority of the Kapos and the common criminals asked to enlist voluntarily in the SS and they left with the SS because they knew what was awaiting them. In spite of that we looked for them everywhere and executed them on the spot.
QYou said they had to behave like animals. I deduce from that that you knew of that.
AYou could see that by the way they behaved. It was preferable to die like a man rather than to live like a beast, and they preferred to live like beasts and they behaved as such.
QI didn't receive the translation of that reply. Would you please repeat your answer. I didn't understand.
AYou would be blind in order not to see what went on. I know what they were doing. There were many among us who had the possibility of becoming Kapos because we were specialists in some of the trades in the camp. They would prefer to be beaten, if necessary, and executed, rather than to become a Kapo.
DR. BABEL:Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT:Does any other member of the defendants' counsel wish to ask questions of the witness?
M.Dubost, do you wish to ask any questions?
M. DUBOST:I have no further questions, Mr. President.
GENERAL RUDENKO: The witness informed us that he has a photographic document at his disposal showing 30 Russian war prisoners who were the only survivors from several thousand Russian war prisoners who were interned in this camp; I would like to ask you, Mr. President, to present this photographic document to the witness to that he can confirm before the Tribunal that this is really a document about this group of Soviet war prisoners.
THE PRESIDENT:Certainly you may show the photograph to the witness if you have it. You may put the photograph to the witness if it is available.
GENERAL RUDENKO:Yes. BY GENERAL RUDENKO:
QWitness, can you show this picture?
AWhat was it please? To whom? BY THE PRESIDENT:
QIs this the photograph? (Indicating)
AYes, that is these 30. I can assure you that these 30 survivors were still living in 1941. Since then, in view of the conditions of the camp, it is very difficult to state whether any of them are still alive.
QWould you please state the date when this photograph was taken?
AIt was at the end of winter, 1941-42. In those days, it was still 8 degrees below zero. You can see on the picture the countenance of the prisoners because of the cold.
THE PRESIDENT:Has this book been put in evidence yet?
M. DUBOST:This book has been submitted as evidence. It is RF-321.
THEPRESIDENT: 321. Have the defendants got copies of it?
M. DUBOST:They have received a copy of that text in German, your Honor. I am not certain whether the German text has the pictures as well. No, the pictures are not in the German version.
THE PRESIDENT:Well then, let this photograph be marked. It had better be marked with a French exhibit number, I think. What will it be?
M. DUBOST:We shall give it number 333, RF-333.
THE PRESIDENT:Let it be marked in that way, and then hand it to Dr. Babel.
GENERAL RUDENKO: Thank you, sir.
(The document above referred to was handed to Dr. Babel).
THE PRESIDENT:I think it should be handed about to the other defendants' counsel in case they wish to ask any question about it.
Mr. Dubost, I suppose that an approved copy of this book, including the photographs, has been deposited in the defendants' information center.
M. DUBOST:The whole book, except for the pictures.
THE PRESIDENT:Why not the pictures?
M. DUBOST:We didn't feel that we were to place them. In our expose we did not discuss the photographs.
THE RESIDENT:The German counsel ought to have the same documents as are submitted to the Tribunal in evidence. The photographs have been submitted to the Tribunal; therefore, they should have been submitted in the information center.
M. DUBOST:It was deposited, the French text including the pictures, and in addition a certain number of texts in German which did not include the pictures because that translation was prepared for the use of the defense. But there are French copies of the book that have been placed in the document center with the pictures.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well.
M. DUBOST:We have here four copies, which We shall place before you, of the picture which was shown yesterday, which shows Kaltenbrunner and Himmler in the quarry of Mauthausen, on the basis of the testimony given by M. Boix. One of thesepictures will also be delivered to the defense, that is, to the lawyer of the defendant Kaltenbrunner.
THE PRESIDENT:Now, the photograph has been handed around to the defendants' counsel. Do any members of the defendants' counsel wish to ask any questions of the witness upon this photograph?
The witness can then retire.
THE WITNESS:I would like to say something more. I would like to note that there are a few cases where Soviet officers were massacred because they were prisoners of war. The Russian gentleman ought to listen to me on that.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
QWhat is it you wish to say about the massacre of the Soviet prisoners of war?
AThere was a transport in 1943. They were Russian officers or political kommissars. On the day of their arrival in the camp they were massacred by every imaginable means. But it seems that from the higher spheres an order had come saying that something special had to be done, so they put them in the best block that there was in the camp.
They gave them new clothing, Russian prisoners' clothing; they gave them cigarettes; they were put in beds with sheets; they were given everything they wanted to eat.
Dr. Krissbach listened to them.
Then they were taken down to the quarry, They carried heavy stones and at that time Paul Sicken was there and was taking pictures of this incident. He undoubtedly took about 48 pictures. These pictures were developed by me and they were sent, with the negatives. It is too bad I couldn't keep the negatives of that as I did of the others. They were sent to Berlin for these questions.
When it was all over, the Russians were then asked to give up their clothing and they were sent to the gas chamber. The comedy was ended. Everybody could see on the pictures that the Russian prisoners of war and political kommissars were well treated, that they were in good condition. That is one thing that should be noted because I think it is necessary.
And another thing. There was a barrack called number twenty. In that barrack inside of the camp, and in spite of the electrified barbed wire around the camp, there was an additional wall with new electrified barbed wire around it, and in that barrack prisoners of war -- Russian, a few Frenchmen, some Jugoslavs, perhaps a few Englishmen - no one could enter that barrack except the two fuehrers who were of the SD, that is, the commandant of the inner camp and of the outer camp. They were dressed like we were; like common-law prisoners. You could not tell their nationality from their dress. We had to run as we took the pictures, and they put a number on them. The number started with three thousand and some. Number eleven in blue. That started in about three thousand. Then it went up to four thousand. In the pictures at that time Herman Schimann, who was taking those pictures in Dasaltz --it was somewhere north of Berlin, I don't remember where he came from -- he had the order to develop them himself. But since all the SS in the inner service in the camp only had orders to kill prisoners -- there were always two prisoners to do that. They needed me to develop their films, so that they would not be disturbed, so I did the enlargements. I always made two copies.