He thought that if the Ruhr area would be flooded, he would have food supplies to draw on.
DR. FLAESHSNER: Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Does Counsel for the Prosecution wish to cross-examine? I am sorry, Dr. Kunoscok, did you have something to say?
DR. KUBOSCHOK: (Counsel for the Defendant von Papen) The Defendant Kaltenbrunner has asked me as one of the Defense Counsel who is closest to him to state that he had discussed with his attorneys a number of questions which he would like to put to Seyss-Inquart. I tried, to reach Dr. Kaufmann; and at present, in the course of this afternoon, I do not think it will be possible for us to reach him. The Defendant Kaltenbrunner asked for permission to have these questions asked of Seyss-Inquart tomorrow.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will expect some explanation from Dr. Kaufmann as to why he is not here to cross-examine. He must have known that the time was about to arrive for him to cross-examine. But the Tribunal will assent to the suggestion that these questions may be put at a later date, tomorrow, if possible.
DR. KUBOSCHOK: Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, do Counsel for the Prosecution wish to cross examine? BY M. DEBENEST:
Q. Defendant, you have studied law, and you have even told us that you obtained the diploma of doctor of law from the Viennese faculty in 1917?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You were a lawyer from 1929 to 1938, on the 12th of February, at which date you became Minister for Home Affairs?
A. Beginning with the year 1921.
Q. I see; 1921. Very well, if you wish. Was not the majority of the people who would come to see you made up of Jews?
A. Not in a large measure. But there were some among them.
Q. Yes. Nevertheless, you told us yesterday that you had been an anti-semite since world War I.
A. My clients know that quite well. The office was known as such.
Q. Yes. But you did not object to accepting money of Jews.
A. It did not prevent the Jews from asking for my aid, either.
Q. Very well. You belonged to the Catholic religion, did you not?
A. How do you mean that?
Q. I am asking you whether you were a Catholic.
A. I was a member; that is, I belonged to the Catholic Church.
Q. Yes. And were you not equally a member of an association of Catholic fraternities while you were a student?
A. Never did I belong to any student organization or fraternity, either Catholic, or any other.
Q. Very well. You were appointed Reich Commissar for Holland by a decree of Hitler dated the 18th of May 1940; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You directives, when they reached the Netherlands, as you stated yesterday, were to maintain Dutch supremacy, and the independence of the Netherlands, and to establish an economic liaison between Holland and Germany; you added that these directives were never modified afterwards by the Fuehrer is that exact?
A I didn't quite understand one word, and that was the word referring to the economic liaison. directives to carry out. First, to maintain the Dutch independence, and secondly to establish an economic liaison between Holland and Germany, is that right? close economic relationship between Holland and Germany was to be brought about by economic progress in the long run, not to mention war necessities. of giving Holland a preferred political decree to the Dutch people, is that right?
A Well, I would not put it that way. It was my intention to further National Socialist politics, not to decree it, but to foster and further it.
Q Yes, I see. And was it also your intention not to introduce but to impose it?
Q Well, I am going to have shown to you a document, No. 997-PS. This document has already been submitted by the Prosecution under No. USA-708, and yesterday by the Defense. Will you kindly turn to page 7 and 8 of the German text? It is page 7 of the French text, at the paragraph "Measures." Page 7 of the French text. This document, as you will note, is a report which you yourself made.
Q "In this state of things, it was necessary to do away, to eliminate the influence of Winkelmann, which was done in the following manner. The general secretaries were informed that they would only receive orders from the Reich Secretary. The position of General Secretaries was kept by the same people, who were obliged to consider that it was almost impossible to find Dutch people to replace them, and who would be willing to take over the administration. In the Parties of the Reich, there were hardly people qualified to do this, but it seemed necessary, form a political point of view, that a certain number of measures in the National Economic Measures be political measures as well, and that they be made known to the Dutch nation with the signature of the General Secretary of this country."
to keep the General Secretaries, it is only because you needed them in order to impose and force certain measures upon the Dutch nation? Is that right?
A Yes, but how are you connecting politics with this? This is a matter of administration.
Q Not so far as I know. It seems as if we see two questions here, the economic question and the political question. question is mentioned, not political. And there is a difference, you know.
"But it seemed necessary, from a political point of view . . ."
Is that "political" or "police" which we see here?
A Just a moment, please. Yes, that's correct. But you don't mean politics in a sense of party politics, but rather, in a treatment of the Dutch persons where they were to turn to National Socialism. That's a matter of complete inducement. policy? at all, but that was part of my task. National Socialists? existence of the German people, and this battle was led by the people of the National Socialist party. But we were not interested in the carrying through of the 25 points of a Party policy, but rather, the carrying through of our fight for existence and that, I think, is what is concerned here. helped by 4 General Commissaires,who were Wimmer in Administration, Fischbueck in Finance and Economy, Rauter for Public Security, and Schmidt for Special Cases. The General Commissaire for Public Security , Rauter, was directly subordinate to you, wasn't he?
A The 4 General Commissaires were immediately subordinate to me. Rauter, in so far as he was the General Commissaire for the Security system, not in that he was the chief of the German police.
and to do that, you set up the two assemblies which existed there, and by the same decree, you limited and restricted the powers of the State Counsellor to the jurisdictional field. that way. of the Netherlands, and to do this, you issued a decree on 24 August 1940 which enabled you to appoint the President of the Dutch Bank. effect, yes.
Q Very well. When you arrived inHolland, Mr. Tripp was the President of the Dutch Bank and also General Secretary for the Treasury?
Q Very well. You had him replaced, and for what reason?
A Mr. Tripp, in the carrying through of the closing and currency limitations, did not want to cooperate. I put it to him that he could resign if he did not follow my measures or did not want to cooperate with me.
Q And with whom did you replace him?
A Mr. Rost von Tonningen.
Q How long did you know Mr. Rost von Tonningen?
A I do not believe I knew him. I knew him by name -- he seemed to have a capacity to have done the same function in Vienna for the League of Nations.
Q Since when did you know his name? but I do not know the exact date. you?
Q Was not Mr. Rost van Tonningen a member of the Dutch National Socialist Party?
Q Was it for this reason that you appointed him? represented our views. a few moments ago, 997-PS, page 5 of the German text and page 5 of the French text. This is what you say about Mr. Rose van Tonningen:
"Corresponds perfectly to all the ideological requirements, adjusted to the Germanic idea and to National Socialism, speaks very well and is extremely energetic. He does not find his strength in himself but needs the support of other people." Tonningen had any particular qualifications as far as finance goes. their capacities but, rather, their political position. I did not say that Mr. Messer was a well known or renowned engineer and so forth. I described only their political opinions and attitudes.
Q Thank you. Therefore, you set up in the Netherlands a civil government, a German civil government. functionaries who had those functions which ordinarily ministers would have. Some functions, however, had been delegated to the general commissars and secretaries, but these secretaries did not represent the ministry or government.
I mentioned yesterday that I took over the government. they not? they were not what you could call the supreme dignitaries of the states. These gentlemen were in England. government in order to carry on the duties of a government in the place of the government? England had I do not know. I assumed that they remained in order to direct administration in a technical way. In a complete occupation of a country, the occupying power must determine just how the government is to be carried on. in an occupied country was in conformity with international conventions?
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, I object to this question. In my opinion, it is a question which should be resolved by the High Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks the question may be asked. The defendant has already given his views of international law in his examination in chief. BY M. DEBENEST:
A May I please have the question repeated? an occupied country is in conformity with international convention?
Q And why? for the administration of this country, and, therefore, a responsible leadership had to be established in this country by Germany.
Q Very well. You, yourself, by the way, created the GeneralSecretariat, and more particularly, a secretariat for Information and Arts?
Q Yes, that is it.
Q And whom did you put at the head of this Secretariat?
A I believe first Professor Kudewagen. He was a member of the Dutch National Socialist Party. most part, of members of this party? dividually. was there as a counselor?
A The Dutch SS?
Q Yes, that is he. He was a consultant for national education and national development. for what?
A Yes, but I did not know him. I consider it possible, but I did not know him. I do not believe that he was there as an SS man in that capacity, but I believe that he was there for some special reason. the provincial assemblies; why?
A I can not say the dissolution of the administration. It was only certain representatives whom I eliminated. Not only did I keep the administration itself, but I increased their functions.
Q You even eliminated all the mayors of the most important districts? the authority of the occupying country. The Buergomaster of Amsterdam did not prevent the general strike but, rather, he fostered it. or at least a certain number of them?
A The mayors whom I eliminated were those who through an active, hostile demeanor, became unbearable to me.
On the whole, their political attitude was of complete indifference to me. Up to the year 1945 I kept this gentleman whose name I did not get as mayor, even though he was a very bitter enemy of National Socialism and a bitter enemy of us Germans.
Q Very well. Through whom did you replace all these mayors? took place with the agreement of Mr. Fredericks, the General Secretary for the Interior, who wasput at my disposal by the Dutch authorities. There were National Socialists; there were those who were not National Socialists. For instance, the brother of the Provincial Commissar of the Dutch people was a convinced and determined enemy of National Socialism and of Germany, and he was made mayor of one of theDutch cities.
Q But you are not exactly answering my question. I am asking you to tell me by whom you replaced all the mayors whom you eliminated.
Q Who--Who replaced than? Who replaced them? Were they members of the NSB? political men, and in part they were members of political trends which were absolutely against National Socialism and against Germany. In time there were more and more NSB people, for non-NSB people did not put themselves at our disposal any longer, and that was thegreatest success of the Dutch resistance movement--that they give us complete political resistance and they carried on work of significance in this direction. which led you to put a great number of NSB people in all important positions?
A No, that thought would be too daring for me. The Dutch resistance movement only induced the population not to work with the occupying power at all, so that outside of the NSB people there was no one who wanted to work with us.
THE PRESIDENT: Would that be a convenient time to break off?
(A recesswas taken until 1400 hours) (The Tribunal reconvened at 1400 hours, 11 June 1946) BY M. DEBENEST:
Q. Defendant, you installed, in the larger towns and in the provinces of the low countries, agents who were directly subordinated to you and to whom you gave full powers. Were those agents not members of the NSDAP ?
A. Will you please tell me what you mean by "agents" ? I had German representatives in the provinces and in the larger cities. Do you mean the German or the Dutch ones?
Q. No; I meant to speak of the Beauftragte.
A. They were Germans, and I assume that all were members of the NSDAP. I don't know for certain, but it is quite possible and I believe that was the ease.
Q. Well then, in order to refresh your memory, will you plea, so take document 997-PS, which I caused to be handed you this morning ? I refer to page 9, in the French or German text.
M. DEBENEST: I would like to tell the Tribunal that I gave them an incorrect reference this morning. The document was submitted not under the number USA 708, but RF 122. BY M. DEBENEST:
Q. At the top of page 9 it states:
"The delegates are working, with very essential administrative and independent powers, for the provinces. The creation of these posts was a target because it was, first of all, necessary to examine the situation. It has now been admitted that it was less a question of administrative officers than of men who had had political experience. Thereafter, Reichsleiter Bormann, on Hess'staff, was requested, as were others, for men, most of whom would come from the Party, some of whom were already on their way, who could be installed in their functions in the provinces with very short delay".
A. Yes. I find myself confirmed that they were not all from the Party.
Q. Very well, but I also notice that these men were specially selected.
A. Yes, as politically experienced men. That is, I did not want any administrative bureaucrats, but men who were experienced in public political life, and not Party political life.
Q. Very well. On what basis did you organise the municipal councils and the regional councils?
THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, it seems to the Tribunal -I don't know whether we are right -- that it would be better if you would pause after the sentence rather than after each word.
M. DEBENEST: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Will you please tell me what you mean by municipal and provincial councils ? According to our concept, by the word "council" I understand a body, but I did not establish any bodies, I appointed individual men to direct the administration. BY M. DEBENEST:
Q. In the communes, in the Netherlands, there were municipal councils. Whether, in the provinces, you call them municipal councils, there is a provincial council which you might call, if you like, "provincial council".
A Thank you. I understand. The provincial and community represen-
tatives which existed previously I dissolved in 1941. Then in the regulations issued by me I provided for such councils but never actually appointed such councils because the Netherlands population did not cooperate and, as a result, these community councils would have been artificial bodies. This provision of my regulations did not go into effect.
Q But upon what basis did this regulation establish this organization?
A May I ask to have the question repeated?
Q On what basis did this regulation lay down this reorganization?
A I can not recall any certain basis. I assume that it was established by law, if it was provided for at all.
Q Very well. I will put the question in a different manner and perhaps you will be able to answer it. Did you introduce, by means of your regulations, the Fuehrer principle?
A Yes. I called it the "one man responsibility", and I am of the opinion that in these times a "one man responsibility" is always the correct thing.
Q That was, in fact, the system which was equally applied in Germany?
A That is true. Perhaps it wasnot exactly the same, but under the circumstances, I consider that correct. I repeat what I said yesterdays: We were mistaken. We committed the error of considering the order of the occupational forces better than that found in the occupied territory. cance, did it not?
A I certainly thought it did; especially in these territorial districts I had to have a man who was responsible to me for theadministration and not an anonymous majority of a representative body. 1524, the last paragraph. You will see the importance which was attached to that in theReich. It is a note of the Minister of the Interior, dated the 6th of September, 1941. It reads as follows: "Particular importance must be accorded to the security regulations by the introduction of the Fuehrer Principle in themunicipal government of the Netherlands."
A Yes. The Ministry of the Interior was interested in this. I should only like to point out that the Reichsminister of the Interior exerted no influence and, in the second place, these larger powers, in the year 1941, were given at least eighty per cent to mayors who belonged to the democratic party and were therefore my political opponents.
MR. PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, haven't you established, by the questions that you have put to this defendant, that he did alter, to a considerable extent, the form of government in the Netherlands, and that he introduced a different form of government. Isn't that all that you really require for the argument which, no doubt, you intend to present? The details of it don't very much matter, do they?
M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, I simply wish to demonstrate that, contrary to what the defendant said, he had sought to impose the National Socialist system upon the people of the Netherlands.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, to a large extent, I think he had admitted that. He said just now that he introduced what he called, "one man responsibility", which is another phrase for the Fuehrer principle, and that he had dissolved various organizations of the Netherlands government. All I am suggesting to you is that, having got those general admissions, it isn't necessary to go into details about the exact amount that the government of the Netherlands was interfered with or the exact way in which it was replaced, Isn't it really all stated in a document drawn up by the defendant, namely, the document you have been putting, 997 FS?
M. DEBENEST: More or less, Mr. President, but not entirely.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the only question is whether the details are really very important for the Tribunal.
M. DEBENEST: I thought that those details might have a certain importance, since the governors of the Reich itself attached importance to it, and that, in fact, the whole was part of a plan which had been definitely laid down.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal is inclined to think that you have got all that is necessary for the argument which you are indicating that you would present. If there are any particular details that you think important to us, no doubt you can bring them out.
M. DEBENEST: Quite so, Mr. President.
BY M. DEBENEST:
Q To what end had you centralized the police system?
A May I ask to have the question repeated? directorate?
A I will repeat my testimony of yesterday. The Netherlands police was under three or four different agencies. The Ministry of the Interior, the Justice Ministry, I believe the Army Ministry, and so forth. In the interest of a coordinated police administration, I thought it necessary to coordinate these various police bodies into one and to place it under the Justice Ministry. a National Socialist? Netherlands in the power of the NSDAP and, thereafter, the NSDAP would adapt the internal organization of Netherlands to that of the Reich? In other words, to do something similar to what you had done in Austria.?
Q I repeat. The end which you had in view in the Netherlands, was it not to place the administration of that country in the hands of the NSDAP and, therefore, the NSDAP would adapt the internal organization of the Netherlands in conformity with that of the Reich?
A I do not believe that one can say that. In particular, the policy of the NSB was not that of the NSDAP. The NSB was different in many respects. In the second place, if I had wanted to do that, I would have been able to make Mr. Messer prime minister; that would, have been simpler. The simple explanation is that I used the example of the Reicch in order to set up an administration in the Netherlands, at least in part, which made possible my task of keeping order and guarding security. Yesterday I asserted only that I forced no Dutch citizen to become a National Socialist. I did not deny that a certain coordination was undertaken, from the mistakes which I have repeatedly admitted.
Q Did you use the NSB as an administrative organization? rely only on them. All others sabotaged my orders. of the Court of Leuwarden. Would you tell us the real causes of the cancelation of their appointment. This court had said in public judgment, that those Dutch citizens who were condemned by Dutch courts and sent to prison would be transferred to German concentration camps, mistreated, and executed; as a result, the court was no longer in a position to condemn a Dutch citizen. Dutch citizens were not sent from Netherlands prisons to German concentration camps to be executed there. Amsterdam judges, and through the General Secretary for Justice I had the cou* in Leuwarden requested to continue passing sentence. The court in Leuwarden did not do so. Thereupon, I dismissed this court.
Q Well then, I am holding the document "Verdict of the Court of Appeal of Leuwarden" and there is no question of Dutch prisoners being sent to concentration camps or being tortured or otherwise put to death. All that is mentioned is that the magistrates of that court do not wish to impose a penalt which would result in the condemned people being sent to concentration camps. The document has already been submitted under No. RF-931.
I shall read the judgment concerning the appeal:
"Considering that the Court wishes to take into account the fact that for some time past various terms of imprisonment have been imposed by the Dutch judges upon the people contrary to the intentions of the legislation, and the penalties of the judges have been executed in a manner which aggravates those penalties to such on extent that it is impossible for the judge to foresee or even to suppose the penalty to be inflicted -
THE PRESIDENT: The translation isn't coming through.
THE WITNESS: I am not getting the translation. This document exists in German translation. I believe my defense counsel has it.
M. DEBENEST: I believe so, too.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you got a German copy of it?
M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, I have a German copy, but we cannot find it.
THE PRESIDENT: Why don't you put it to the defendant?
M. DEBENEST: I would if I had it, but it cannot be found at present.
THE PRESIDENT: Why not summarize the document to the witness, do it in that way? You can give the effect of the judgment.
M. DEBENEST: Perhaps it would be better, Mr. President. BY M. DEBENEST: pronounce a penalty which would cover preventive detention.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you hear the question?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. President, but why do they not want to pass sentence? I had the German translation here in my hands, and I took my expression of the matter from this translation because I did not recall this judgment. I read it here, and I remember that it stated there that these Dutch prisoners were coming to German concentration camps, were being tortured and executed.
THE PRESIDENT: It doesn't appear to say anything about that in the judgment before us. There is nothing about that in the judgment, is there?
M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, it is the defendant who said that, that the judges did not wish to pronounce any such judgments in order that people would not be sent to the camps to be executed or tortured. There is no question of that in the judgment. The only thing that is mentioned is that the tribunal did not want to inflice any penalty which would result in the people being sent away to concentration camps. I do not see that there is anything in this judgment that is derogatory to the defendant or his person.
THE WITNESS: Now I have the German text. It reads:
"The court wants to acknowledge the fact that for some time judges have imposed penalties and that Dutch criminals of the masculine sex, contrary to legal prescription and contrary to the intention of the legislator and the judge, have been executed and are being executed in the camp in a manner which........" and so forth.
Those are the concentration camps which the court meant. That is the circumstance, that prisoners were sent from Dutch prisons to German camps.
THE PRESIDENT: Go, M. Debenest. BY M. DEBENEST: exerted influence on the appointment of teachers, particularly in the very numerous private schools in the Netherlands. Two-thirds of the Netherlands schools were private. I felt it necessary because in these schools there was definitely anti-German tendency which was taught to the students. The Netherlands Education ministry had supervision of these matters. public education.
A I don't believe so. I ordered, or I was willing to have ordered, that clergymen should not be heads of schools. As for clergymen who were teachers, I was quite willing to have their pay reduced by one-third. They were able to continue to teach with two-thirds of their income, and from the money which was saved, I employed 2,000 new, young teachers. teachers' seminar?
A. No. I believe you mean courses which were given in Avigor for those who volunteered for them.
Q. No. What I mean is those teachers who were compelled to go for the course in Germany before their appointment.
A. I do not recall the case. That might be those who were to teach German in the Netherlands schools. In that case, it is possible that I demanded that they first spend a certain time in Germany in order to be employed.
Q. You did, as a matter of fact, make the study of the German language obligatory in many cases?
A. In the 7th and 8th classes, which I introduced. But at the same time, I also had instruction in the Dutch language increased, in order to prove that I did not want to Germanize the Dutch, but only wanted to give them an opportunity to study the German language.
Q. But they already had that opportunity. German was taught simultaneously along with English and French. You imposed the teaching of the German language at the expense of the other two foreign languages.
A. I spoke of the elementary schools in which the introduction of German had not yet been made. It is possibility that in the secondary schools, instruction in German was increased at the expense of instruction in English and French.
Q. Did you not order the closing down of several universities? And why did you do so?
A. I recall only the closing of the Leyden University. When, on the basis of my instructions, Jewish professors of the faculty were dismissed, the students of the University of Leyden went on strike for a long period of time, I thereupon closed the course of study. I do not recall having closed any other universities. The Catholic University in Neumegen and the Calvanistic university in Amsterdam, as far as I can recall, closed of their own accord.
Q. And the high polytechnic school at Delhoft, did you not order that to be closed?
A. Yes. That was a temporary measure. It was reopened, as far as I recall.
Q. How about the high polytechnic school at Tilburg?
A. I do not remember that.
Q. It was in 1943.
A. I do not remember. It is quite possible that for some reason or other it was closed. It was probably that its continuation endangered the interest of the occupation forces, or seemed to me to endanger the interest of the occupation forces.
THE PRESIDENT: It is not necessary to investigate this in detail, is it? If the defendant said that he closed one school without giving an adequate reason why, isn't that sufficient for you to develop your argument?
M. DEBENEST: Certainly, Mr. President. BY M. DEBENEST:
Q. In this school, or rather in this university, at Leyden, you attempted later on to turn it into a national socialist university?
A. If you consider the appointment of two or three professors out of about 100 professors or 50 professors as such, I should have to say yes. I cannot recall any other measures. Once an idea was presented to me to establish a university in Leyden at which German and Dutch students could study, and that study there would be recognized in Germany. This did not come about.
Q. Anyway, you admit that you had the intention of creating this school?
A. "Intention" is a little too strong. These ideas were discussed. There was another idea in the Netherlands. In the German Wehrmacht we had a number of university students who had not been able to continue their studies for understandable reasons. It was considered at that time for these university students in the Wehrmacht to hold courses at Leyden, which would be a sort of continuation of their studies.
Q. I have here a document, F-803, which I submit under the number RF-152; This letter is rather a report from the Ministry of National Education of the Netherlands. It is on Page 23 of the French version and Page 15 of the German version.
A. Page 16?
Q. Yes, 16.
THE PRESIDENT: Why don't you go on, Mr. Debenest?
M. DEBENEST: I am allowing the defendant to find the place. BY M. DEBENEST:
Q. Have you found it on Page 16?
A. Yes.
Q. I shall read the passage to you.
"Attempts were made to make the University of Leyden a national socialist university by appointing national socialist professors. However, these attempts failed as a result of the firm attitude taken by the professors and by the students. The professors over --"
THE PRESIDENT: (Interposing) Is that on Page 15?
M. DEBENEST: That is on Page 23 of the French text, in the last paragraph
THE PRESIDENT: What is it?
M. DEBENEST: It is F-803.
THE PRESIDENT: I did not ask what document it was. I asked what is the nature of the document.
M. DEBENEST: I indicated to the Tribunal that it was a report of the Minister for Public Education in the Netherlands.
THE PRESIDENT: Was he appointed by the defendant, or appointed before the war?
M. DEBENEST: It is the present ministry of education. I would point out to the Tribunal that I am obliged to go into a certain amount of detail, because when the French prosecution presented its case, we did not have all the documents at our disposal, and the Dutch government asked us to develop their case in the measure in which we would find it possible. I might add that today I am producing documents which are emanating from the Dutch government.
THE PRESIDENT: That is Page 23?
M. DEBENEST: Page 23 of the French text, six lines from the bottom of the page in the last paragraph.