Q In his what?
AApartment.
QIn his apartment. And id he have all of his files in his apartment or somewhere near at hand?
AHe had no files whatever in his apartment. They remained in the office, in that part of the Reichstag government building which was still being used and in which one could still work.
QWere any files taken out of that filing part of your Reichstag government when you left Vienna, or before you left Vienna?
AI do not know that. I know that an order existed both for the state administration as well as the party that files be destroyed when the enemy approached. Whether that was actually done or what in fact would happen with the files I don't knew
QWho got that order?
APlease, would you be good enough to repeat your question?
QI want to know to whom that order was directed, if you know, the order to destroy the files.
AThe order as far as the party channels were concerned went to the deputy gauleiter and as far as the state administration is concerned to the government president.
QDid you also receive an order to start moving your files to places of security some time in the spring or late winter of 1945?
AI have no recollection of such an order.
QDo yon knew that some 250 folders of your files weremoved to a salt mine ourside of Vienna? Do you know anything about that?
ANo. I hear that for the first time.
QYou know there is such a mine near Vienna, you have lived there quite a whole, I gather.
ANo. It isn't -- if I may be permitted to put this matter tight, it is near Salzburg, and we were never living there. I know that this mine exists.
QHow far is it from Vienna?
AApproximately 350 kilometers.
QYou don't know anything about any files being taken there. You are sure about that, are you?
A I am absolutely certain that I don't know anything of that.
QI have just one other question to ask. I suppose you knew the defendant pretty well. He is a littler older than you but you had worked for him for some time. Isn't that so?
AYes.
QWhy didn't you join the Army instead of the SS when you wanted to do something for your country?
AWhen I became a soldier I was -- the Waffen SS was considered the elite unit and I would rather serve in such an elite unit than the general armed forces.
QWas it the fact that you had been in the general SS since 1939?
ANo. That had nothing to do with it. Numerous members of the general SS went to the Army.
QDid you talk this matter ever with your superior, von Schirach, before you joined the army in 1939 and the Waffen SS later on?
ANo. And perhaps I may remind you that I did not join von Schirach until October '40, whereas, I joined the Waffen SS on the 26th of June, 1940.
QYes, but you are a young man and I suppose you were in touch with the youth organization when you joined the SS. Isn't that a fact? Weren't you a part of the youth organization in '39?
ANo. I was not taken over by the youth leaders offices until April 1944 when I became "bannfuehrer". Before that I had no contact.
QWell, I don't think you understand me. It isn't too important, but how old were you in 1939? You were 24, approximately, weren't you?
AYes.
QAnd weren't you then in some way affiliated with the Hitler Youth or the youth organization in Germany, either as a member or having something to do with it?
ANo. Neither as a member nor in any other way. Of course I knew youth leaders, yes.
QYou were quite a speech-maker for the Party, weren't you, during your lifetime?
AIn Corinthia, during the years of April '38 until May 1940, I spoke before several meetings.
Q About how many would you say you spoke before in that period of two years?
ADuring that time I spoke in about 80 meetings.
QAnd an average of about what, 2,000 or 3,000 persons per meeting?
AI also spoke in very small villages. I would say that the average figure would be about 200.
MR. DODD:That is all I have.
THE PRESIDENT:Do you want to re-examine?
DR. THOMA:Counsel for Rosenberg.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. THOMA:
QWhat were the subjects you talked about in these meetings?
AWe were given our subject by the Reich propaganda ministry. They were always such that every speaker would have the possibility to speak about general matters. For instance, the subject might have been "With the Fuehrer to Final Victory" or "Why Welfare for the Nation" or "Why Winter Work."
Such subjects were the ones we got.
QDid you spread Rosenberg's Mythology of the 20th Century?
ANo.
QDid you speak about such subjects?
ANo. Because of my education I wouldn't be in position to do so.
QHave you ever read this Mythology?
AI haven't read it.
QDid you speak before youngsters during these meetings; did you speak before youngsters?
ABefore youth in particular, no, I didn't speak.
DR. THOMA: Thank you.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I do not wish to put any more questions to the witness. BY MR. BIDDLE:
QWitness, did Schirach have any authority to intervene in case of Jews being deported from Vienna?
AHe had no authority to do so but he did it.
QHow many times did he intervene?
AI recollect no case where we received an application where von Schirach did not intervene.
QI asked how many times he intervened.
AI am afraid I cannot give you any figures without being inaccurate. It is very difficult.
QDid he intervene many times, or few?
ANo. Often.
QDid you see the order to the police not to protect aviators? You said it was in writing, didn't you?
AYes.
QWho signed it?
AThe order was signed by Bormann.
QAnd was it distributed to the police in Vienna?
AIf I have understood you rightly, then this was the order, that gauleiters might not act on behalf of Jews.
Q This was the order about not protecting aviators who had crashed.
You said you saw that order, didn't you?
AI did see the order, yes. I do not remember however, who it came from and to whom it was addressed. As far as our office was concerned it was merely sent to us for our information. As far as we were concerned we hadn't any steps we should have to take.
QDon't you know whether or not the police had a copy of it.
APlease, will you be good enough to repeat the question?
QDo you know whether or not the police in Vienna had copies of the order?
AThat I don't know.
QDid you ever know Himmler?
AI have seen him.
QDid he give you any instructions?
ANo.
QDid you get any instructions from the SS?
AIn which way do you mean?
QAny instructions from the SS directly when you were in von Schir ach's office?
ANo.
QNot at all?
ANone at all. I cannot recollect any.
QI think you said once that Schirach sent a command to save American aviators from the crowd, did you not? Don't you understand?
AYes, yes, I understand and I did say that, that's right.
QAnd what other efforts did von Schirach make to protect aviators from the crowd? Did he make any other efforts?
AYes.
QDid he issue any orders to the police or take it up with the police?
AIt was the opinion of von Schirach which was known in the circle.
Q I didn't ask you the opinion. Did he issue any orders to the police or talk to the police?
AOf that I have no recollection.
QWell, you would know if he had, would you not?
AIf I had been present when he gave the orders then I should know it, but it is quite possible that he talked when I wasn't there.
QDid you say you had access to the secret files?
AYes.
QWhat was kept in the secret files?
AI didn't understand that question, I am afraid.
QI asked you what was put in the secret files, what sort of papers?
AThere were secret files which came from the Supreme Party Headquarters, secret files which came from the Minister of the Interior; in other words, things were in them which made one wonder why they were called secret. But as far as details of these files are concerned, I cannot, of course, today remember them.
QAnd I suppose any documents, reports, that were marked secret would be put in those secret files, would they not?
AReports of our to superior departments or do you mean coming from the top down to us?
QReports coming in to you.
AThey in that case would have been filed in the secret registries department.
QAnd SS secret reports would go in the secret files, would they not?
ASS secret reports didn't come to us, because we weren't a service department of the SS.
(There were no further questions from Mr. Biddle).
THE PRESIDENT:If you have no questions yourself, Dr. Sauter, then witness may retire.
DR. SAUTER:Very well.
(The witness, Fritz Wieshofer, left the witness-stand).
Now, Mr. President, in Schirach's document book there are a few documents, which up to now have not expressly been presented, but I believe that this isn't necessary, that I should read these documents to you; and with reference to the question of saving time, if I may, I should like to refer to the documents and ask you to take judicial notice of them.
So, for instance, the affidavit of Mrs. Hoepken which has No. 3 in the document book, and which has already been read somewhere else.
There is only one document, Mr. President, as to which I want to give one very brief explanation. In the document book, under No. 118A, there is Colin Ross's farewell letter. It is 118A in Schirach's document book. With reference to this Dr. Colin Ross, when the documents were printed the Prosecutor has said that the body of Dr. Ross had not been discovered. At the first moment that surprised me somwehat and I made inquiries as to what actually had been done with these bodies -- that of Dr. Ross and his wife; and I discovered that in fact on the 30th of April, 1945, the day before the arrival of American troops, Dr. Colin Ross's body and that of his wife were found in the house of Defendant von Schirach, at Urfeld, on Lake Walchen. They had both first of all taken poison and then, to be quite sure, Dr. Ross shot his wife and then himself. German soldiers who were at Urfeld on Lake Walchen at the time then buried the bodies immediately next to the house of the Defendant von Schirach.
In the autumn the American Governor ordered that the bodies were to be transferred to the cemetery, but eventually he rescinded that order and permitted the bodies to remain where they had originally been buried.
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Sauter, can you indicate in what way you will submit this document has any relevance at all? We have read the document. It doesn't appear to have any striking relevance.
DR. SAUTER:Mr. President, we have presented that document because it is to prove or at least speak for it, that the Defendant von Schirach together with this Dr. Colin Ross did continuously work to maintain peace and later on to limit the war. Therefore, it is presented only because of the peace efforts of von Schirach.
THE PRESIDENT:The document doesn't mention von Schirach or in any way indicate that he had worked for peace, so far as I can see.
DR. SAUTER: But it says in the document, "We have done everything in our power to prevent this war and to terminate it."
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Sauter, the word "we" must mean the people who "leave the world by our own will," namely, Dr. Ross and his wife. It doesn't refer to von Schirach.
DR. SAUTER:We don't know that. Why shouldn't it refer to von Schirach?
THE PRESIDENT:Because there is such a thing as grammar. The documents beggin "We leave this world by our own will,"
DR. SAUTER:As to that, Mr. President, may I remind you that htis name, Dr. Colin Ross, has been mentioned very often during this trial in connection with the peace efforts of the Defendant von Schirach and that Dr. Colin Ross, together with his wife, was living in Schirach's apartment when they committed suicide.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, very well, Dr. Sauter, if you wish to draw our attention to it, you may do so.
DR. SAUTER:Yes, certainly, sir.
Mr. President, this letter as such wasn't meant for the public; the latter in its original form was left behind by Dr. Ross, whilst a number of copies want to personal friends, and in that way we actually found this Dr. Colin Ross later. I don't think there is anything else I have to say on it.
THE PRESIDENT:I haven't said anything critical about the letter. If you wish to read some sentences, you may read them; if you don't, we will take judicial notice of it. As I told you, we have already read the letter.
DR. SAUTER.:Yes.
THE PRESIDENT:I am not stopping your reading a sentence of it, if you want to.
DR. SAUTER:I don't suppose that is necessary, Mr. President, if you have taken cognizance of it, and in that case I have nothing else to say, and I can end my case for the Defendant von Schirach.
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Sauter, have you offered in evidence all the documents which are in these books?
DR. SAUTER:Yes.
THE PRESIDENT:Then they will be numbered with the numbers which are in the books.
DR. SAUTER:Yes.
THEPRESIDENT: very well, then we will take judicial notice of them all -
DR. DODD: There is one letter, however, that the Tribunal expressly ruled on the affidavit of Ueberrither.
Defendant von Schirach was told he would have to present Ueberreither if he Were to use this affidavit. He hasn't presented him, and the affidavit is being offered. He expressly asked that he be called here if this affidavit is being submitted.
DR. SAUTER:I am not making any references to Ueberreither's affidavit, and as far as the witness Ueberreither is concerned, I do not wish to call him.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well, Dr. Sauter.
MR. DODD:Then the affidavit is not offered.
THE PRESIDENT:No, it is not.
MR. DODD:That is page 135. Very well, then it will not be admitted.
THE PRESIDENT:And we will adjourn now.
(A recess was taken until 1400. hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 28 May 1945)
MR DODD:Dr. President, during the Presentation of the case involving the defendant Funk, there was a number of documents that we did not submit in evidence at the time; and I asked the Tribunal's consent to do so at a later time. I am prepared to do so now if the Tribunal would care to have me.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes, I think it would be quite convenient now.
MR. DODD:Very well, sir.
The first one is a matter of clarifying the record with respect to it. It is Document 2823-PS. It has already been offered in evidence as USA exhibit 654. But the excerpt, or the extract, which was read will be found on Page 105 of the docment. We cited another page which was in error. Reference to this document, USA. Exhibit 654, will be found on Page 9071 of the record.
We also offered our document E.C.440, which consisted of a statement made by the defendant Funk, and we quoted a sentence from Page 4 of that document. I wish to offer that as USA Exhibit 874.
Then document, 3952-PS was an interrogation of the defendant Funk dated October 19, 1945. We wish to offer that as USA, Exhibit 875.
I might remind the Tribunal that the excerpt quoted from that interrogation had to do with the statement made by Funk that the defendant Hess had notified him of the impending attack on the Soviet Union. That excerpt has been translated int the four languages, and therefore will be reality available to the Tribunal.
Then there is also another interrogation dated the 22nd of October, 1945. We read from Pages 15 and 16 of that interrogation, an it appears in the record on Page 9169 for May 7th, The document is No. 3953-PS; we offer it as USA Exhibit 87 We next referred to Document No. 3894-PS , the interrogation of one Hans Poss We offered it as USA Exhibit No 843 at the time, as appears on Page 9093 of the record for May 6th.
At that time, I stated to the Tribunal that we would submit the whole interrogation in the French, Russian, German, and English. We are now prepared to do that, and do so.
Then we have document 3954-PS. This is an affidavit by one Franz B.Wolf, one of the editors of the Frankfurter Zeitung. Reference to it will be found at Page 9082 of the transcript, where we stated that we would have no more to say about the reason for the retention of the editorial staff of the Frankfurter Zeitung.
That document, 3954-Ps, is also now available to the Tribunal in French, Russian, German, and English; and we offer it as USA Exhibit 877.
Then, Mr President, a motion picture film was shown during this cross examination of the defendant Funk; and the Tribunal inquired as to whether or not we would be prepared to submit affidavits to give the source, and so on. We are now prepared to do so; and we offer first an affidavit by Captain Sam Harris who arranged to have the pictures taken. which becomes USA Exhibit 876. The second affidavit is by the photographer who actually took the picture. We offer that as USA Exhibit 875 Finally, I should also like to clear up one other matter.
On March 25, during the cross examination of the witness Bohle, witness for the defendant Hess, Colonel Amen quoted from the interrogation of von Strumpel, which appears in the record beginning at Page 6482. We have the pertinent portions translated into the operating languages of the Tribunal, and we ask that this interrogation, which bears our document number 3800-PS, be admitted in evidence as USA Exhibit 880.
I believe, Mr President, that clears up all of the documents that we have not offered formally, up to this date.
THE PRESIDENT:Now, counsel for the defendant Sauckel.
DR. SEVATIUS (Counsel for the defendant Sauckel): With the permission of the Tribunal, I now call defendant Sauckel to the witness stand.
THE PRESIDENT:Certainly.
ERNST FRIEDRICH CHRISTOPHSAUCKEL, defendant, took the stand and testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
QWill you state your full name?
AErnst Friedrich Christoph Sauckel.
QWill you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENTYou may sis down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. SERVATIUS:
QMr. Witness, please describe your carrer to the Tribunal.
AI was born as the only child of the postman Friedrich Sauckel at Hassfurt on the Main near Bamberg. I attended elementary school at Schweinfurt and the secondary school.
QHow long were you at the Secondary school?
AI was there for five years Attendance at that school was possible through my mother who was a seamstress, since my father was Very badly paid. Since she was suffering from a heart disease, it became clear to me that I would not be able to study, and I obtained their permission to become a sailor, thus creating my own carrer for myself.
QYou joined the merchant marine, or where did you go?
AFirst of all I went to the Norwegian and Swedish merchant navy, so that, in accordance with sailors' traditions, I would be trained on sailing ships and learn the life of a sailor and the life aboard from the beginning.
QHow old were you at the time?
AAt that time I was fifteen and a Half.
QWhat were you earning?
AAs a cabin boy on a Norwegian sailing ship, I was earning, in addition to free food, five Kronen.
QAnd then during the time you were a sailor, where did you go?
A During my life as a sailor, which labor on was completed on German sailing ships, I sailed all the seas and visited all the continents.
QDid you cone in contact with foreign families?
AThrough the Young Men's Christian Association, I came into contact particularly in Australia and North America and South America with families of these states.
QWhere were you when the first world war statrted?
AOn a German sailing ship during a journey to Australia; when the ship was captured on the high seas, I landed in French captivity.
QHow long did you stay there?
AFive years, until November 1919.
QAnd did you return home then?
AI returned home at that time then, yes.
QAnd then what did you do?
AMy training and my study of navigation which I had to carry out had been completed, but since the savings of my time as a sailor had disappeared during the German inflation, I could no longer go to pass my examinations, and there were few German ships. There were many unemployed German seamen so that I decided that I should work in a factory in my home town of Schweinfurt.
QDid you remain in your home town?
AAt first I remained. I was learning in the ball bearing factory of Fischer the trade of a lathe worker and machinest, to save enough money so that I would later be able to attend an engineers college.
Q where you politically active at that time?
AAfter having despised during my sailors life to be politically directed, loving as I did my sailor's lofe, which I still love today, conditions forced me to define my own attitude to the political problems of the time.
No one in Germany at the time could do otherwise.
Years before I had loft a beautiful country, and I could not return to that country without finding it basically chanced and in an upheaval. There was considerable psychological and material emergency.
Q.Did you join any party?
A.No, I was working in a factory which people in my home town used to describe as "ultra red". I was working in the tool shop, and on my right and on my left there were worker, among others my present father-in-law, Social Democrats, Communists, and Anarchists, and during all of the intervals of work, there were discussions, so that, whether one wanted to or not, one had to become involved in the social troubles of that time.
Q.You are mentioning your father-in-law. Did you marry just then?
A.I married in 1923. I married the daughter of a German worker whom I am still happily married today and have four children.
Q.When did you join the Party?
A.I finally joined the Party in 1923 after I Previously had a loose connection with it.
Q.What was the cause for your doing that?
A.In those days I had read a speech of Hitler's. He had expressed in that speech the thought that the German factory worker, the German laborer, would have to get together with the intellectual workers in Germany, and that the controversies between the proletariat and the middle class would have to be bridged by their getting to know each other. This would create a now people, a now community, and only such a community above the classes, above the proletariat, could overcome the dire needs of those days and the split in the German mation between the parties and the confessions could only be bridged in that manner.
I was so impressed be those words, I was so deeply impressed that this idea of bridging seemingly unbridgeable gaps became the dominant idea of my life. If I may say so, I did that all the more because I was aware of the fact that the German people and the German character was inclined to go to extremes.
I had personally to find the right way. As I have already said, I had hardly been interested in political questions. My good parents, who are no longer alive, had educated me in a strictly Christian sense but also in a very patriotic sense. My life, however, when I went to sea, continued in sailors' quarters. I would lead saltpeter in Chili. I would work on heavy timber jobs in Canada. I would lead coal on the equator, and I sailed around Cape Horn several times. All of this was hard work.
Q.Please, will you come back to the question of the Party?
A.I am at the moment talking about the question of the Party, because we must all somehow give reasons how we did get there. I myself, and that I want to say -
THE PRESIDENT:I stated at the beginning of the defendants' case that we had heard this account from the defendant Goering and that we did not propose to hear it again from twenty defendats'. It seems to me that we are having it inflicted upon us by nearly every one of the defendants.
DR. SERVATIUS:I believe, Mr. President, that we are concerned with getting some sort of an impression of the defendant himself. Seen from various points of view, the facts look different.
THE PRESIDENT:We have had half an hour, almost, of it now.
DR. SERVATIUS:I shall now limit it, Mr. President. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q.The Party was dissolved in 1923, and there was a new foundation in 1925, and you joined it, did you not?
A.Yes.
Q Were you active in the Party or were you just a member?
ABeginning with 1925 I was active in the Party.
QAnd what position did you have?
AI was the manager of the Gau Thuringia.
QDid you do that just to get work and just to earn your living, or what was your reason?
AAs the manager of the Gau Thuringia, I was earning 150 marks. Any other profession would have supplied me with quarters and more money.
QWhen did you meet Hitler?
AI met him briefly in 1925.
QWhen did you become Gauleiter?
AI became Gauleiter in 1927.
QAnd how were you nominated?
AI was appointed by letter.
QDid you have any special instructions which might point at any secret intentions of the Party?
AAt that time we were strictly instructed that the Party would in no way be engaged in any secret goings on, that it would be public.
QWho was your predecessor?
ADr. Dinter.
QWhy was he relieved?
ADr. Dinter was relieved of his duties because he had founded a new religious movement in the Party, or wanted to.
QIn 1929, you became a member of the Thuringian Diet.
AYes.
QWere you elected?
AI was elected, as would be the case in every parliamentary election
QWas there dictatorship already at the time?
ABut that wasn't possible in accordance with the Thuringian constitution by which the country was governed.
QHow was it dissolved?
AThe Parliament was dissolved by a law published by the Reich Government.
Q Then in 1932 you were a member of the County Government of Thuringia.
How did you get into that position?
AIn 1932, in the month of June, there were elections for the Thuringian Parliament, and the National Socialist German Workers Party obtained 26 out of 60 seats.
QWas dictatorship mentioned in that connection?
ANo, parliamentary principles were used to elect a government.
QYou had a majority in the Thuringian Government and you could use your influence.
AThe central parties, by an absolute majority, elected a National Socialist Government.
QWhat happened to the old civil servants? Were they dismissed?
AI myself became the chairman of that government and old officials, without exception, remained in their offices.
QAnd what did that first National Socialist government concern itself with, politically speaking, I mean.
AThe internal political sector only allowed one question at that time, and that was the removal of an unimaginable emergency which is exceeded only today.
DR. SERVATIUS: In this connection, Mr. President, may I submit two government reports. I only wish to draw your attention briefly to two passages. One is the report contained in Document No. 96, which shows the activities of the government fight against the social emergency, and if you will glance through it -- it is important to know what is not contained in it -- there is no mention of the question of war or any such matters, but again and again is mentioned the alleviation of the dire needs of the time and what is important is the work that was being done. In Document No. 97, on page 45 there is a statement of the work which this government was carrying out, the construction of bridges, construction of roads, and so on, and there is in no way mentioned any aggressive intention.
Then, at the same time, I present Document No. 95. That is a book called "Fritz Sauckel's Fighting Speeches." Here, too, the book is remarkable because of that is not contained in it, namely, belligerent preparations for a war, and again here we find that the emergency is being dealt with, which becomes clear from the individual articles. These are speeches made during a number of years, and which all show in what direction the defendant Sauckel was being active.
Again, In 1932, there is a speech mentioning the misery of the time, and it ends with a speech in which once more the concern regarding the removal of social need, and the preservation of peace are again and again referred to.
The Tribunal will no doubt be able to read the articles in my document bock. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
QIn 1932 you became Reichstatthalter of Thuringia. How did you achieve that position?
AReichspresident Reichsmarschall von Hindenburg appointed me Reichsstatthalter of Thuringia.
QWhat were the instructions you received when you took up your offices?
AWhen I started as Reichsstatthalter, I received instructions to form a new Thuringian government since the Reichsstatthalter had wanted to keep out of administrative difficulties of the German county.
QYou needn't tell us these technical difficulties. I am thinking of the political task you received.
AI received the political task of administering Thuringia as Reichsstatthalter within the existing Reich law, to stand for unity within the Reich.
QUnity of the Reich. And did that mean the absorption of others, in particular the official organizations in Thuringia?
ANo. Administrativebodies remained.
QYou held the position of Gauleiter and the position of Governor. What was the aim of that?
ABoth positions and their organizations were strictly separated. On the side of the Governor there were officials and civil servants, and in the other side of the Gauleiter there were employees of the Party. Both positions were kept strictly separate and they were run apart from each other, as would be the case in any other state where members of the party have party positions simultaneously with other positions.
Q So that there was no order that one position would absorb the other?
ANo, I didn't have any such orders. The tasks were entirely different.
QWere you a member of the SA?
THE PRESIDENT: You are going a little bit too quickly, I think, for the interpreters. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
QWere you an SA man?
AI myself was never an SA man. I was an honorary Obergruppenfuehrer in the SA.
QHow did you receive that appointment?
AI can't tell you. I was honored with it.
ANo, the Fuehrer gave me an honorary appointment of SS Obergruppenfuehrer without any function on my part.
QWere you a member of the Reichstag?
AYes, beginning in 1943.
QAs a member of the Reichstag, did you know anything in advance about the beginning of the war? Were you informed?
AForeign political developments and the beginning of thewar were not communicated to me in advance. I merely remember that quite suddenly -and I think this was during the days between the 24th of August and the end of August -- we were called to a meeting of the Reichstag at Berlin. That meeting was cancelled at the time, and later on we were ordered to see the Fuehrer, that is, the Gauleiters and Reichsleiters. A number had already left, however, so that we were not complete. Hitler's speech had only lasted a very short time. He said, roughly, that the meeting of the Reichstag could not take place since developments were still going on, and that he was convinced that there would not be a war. He said that he hoped and believed in a solution, and I understood, as I had to, that he meant by that a solution without the 21 lost parts of Upper Silesia.
He said -- and that I remember very exactly -- that. Danzig would become German and that apart from that, Germany wouldhave railway communicawith several tracks and a Reichsautobahn with a certain amount of territory on the right and left of it.
He told us to go home and prepare the Reich Party Rally, where he would meet us again.
Q Did you have close connections with the Fuehrer?
AI personally, as far as I knew the Fuehrer, worshipped him a lot. I had no personal connections with him either which you can describe as personal. I had a number of discussions with him which dealt with my Gau and in particular, with advancing cultural monuments in Thuringia, Weimar, Eisenach and Meiningen, in which he was very interested; and later on, there were a few more frequent meetings because of my position as General Plenipotentiary for Labor.
QYes, but we shall come to that later. What connections did you have to the Reichsleiters?
AMy connections with Reichsleiters weren't any different than those connections with the Fuehrer. They were of an official and Party character and there weren't any personal close connections in connection with anyone of them.
QWhat about your connections with the Reichsministers; how was that?
AThey were purely official connections and there were few contacts.
QWhat about the armed forces?
AI have not had the honor to be a German soldier because of my imprisonment in the first world war and in this world war, the Fuehrer refused to allow me to do my duty as a soldier.
QWitness, you have held a number of high positions. You know the Reichsministers and Reichleiters. Please, will you explain just why you got aboard that submarine at that time?
AI had repeatedly asked the Fuehrer in writing for permission to report to the armed forces and join them with another rank, an enlisted man. He refused that and, secretly, I arranged to be represented in the Gau and went aboard Captain Sahrmann's submarine with the agreement of the captain because I was an old soldier who was now in a high position as a politician and wanted to show the brave sailors a demonstration of my comrade dealings and for my understanding of their duties. Apart from that, I had ten children for whom I, as their father, had to do something, too.
QI shall now put a number of questions to you which refer to your activities. Were you a member of a trade union?