QDo you want to say by that that there was a court procedure or something like that?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot even say anything about there kind of procedure because I don't know anything about it, but I cannot say of what opinion I was during the time I was with Einsatzkommando 6,and then I was of the opinion that they were normal martial law courts.
QVery well. You told the Tribunal that you were informed by the population when you made your survey of the public opinion -
AYes.
QAbout the killing of Jews.
AYes.
QDidn't you learn then the reaction to these activities of Einsatzkommando 6? The population certainly told you a little more than the bare sentence. "By police measure the Jews were killed." Were you not interested to find out how the public opinion reacted to these killings?
AMr. Prosecutor, it was very difficult for me personally as at that time I did not speak any Russian, and I did not understand it. I tried to learn from various inhabitants, of the town what their attitude was and with this, as I certified this morning, I also heard in Dnjepropetrowsk that the population as such knew about exterminations of Jews, but it wasn't so that everybody told me the same thing but only one or two people who held an official position. That is what I said this morning, for instance, officials of the municipalities, of the Registration Office council, the food supply offices,etc. The population as such spoke very little to me about these things.
QDidn't those people who told you about these facts,didn't they tell you a little more than just saying Jews were killed, finished?
AAs far as I can remember these incidents several people tried to speak in sort of broken German with me and the drift of these conversations was, "Levy kaput; Robinson Kaput."
That is more or less how it happened. But they did not tell me that they disapproved of the shooting or that they had any emotion or any emotional attitude against the German population or the German occupation, or at least I certainly could not establish this fact at that time. I must say though, that they were somehow shocked, I must admit that.
QAll right, if you did not know that, what did you know about the task of the Einsatzkommando? You must have had some idea why this Einsatzkommando was formed. So you told me that you did not know that the main task of the Einsatzkommando was the extermination of people. Will you tell the Tribunal now what you did think was the main task of the Einsatzgruppe?
AAccording to my opinion at the time, and that is what matters here, the main task of Einsatzkommandos was the securing of the frontal area and the rear army territory, the security, in fact.
QIn what form did you think this security task was to be carried out?
AAt the time I was aware of the fact that there were, in every occupied country, Einsatzkommandos as, for instance, in Norway, France, Czechoslovakia and Poland, and I also knew that the task of these Einsatzkommandos was the security and consisted of fighting active enemy forces by the corresponding officials and men in Department IV, or, at least, that they were arrested, and if they could be found they would be shot. That is what I knew at the time, and that is what I assumed.
Q.Did you think that this was a legitimate activity?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, I believed it at the time, for the more reason that I am neither a lawyer myself, nor that I had any knowledge of international law and jurisprudence, and I also did not know what shape the combat between Germany and Russia took.
Q.I do think it is not necessary to be a legal man to know that the population of an occupied country has the right, every citizen of the world has the right for their own lives.
AYes.
QDidn't you find out that these activities of Einsatzkommando 6 violated these rights?
A.Not at the time, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q.So, you were of the opinion that it was completely legitimate to kill these people?
A.That, of course, I can not say either, Mr. Prosecutor, but I am of the opinion that the only person who can judge whether it is legitimate or illegitimate is the kommando chief because he, after all, decides whether the man to be shot is really shot and because he is the only one who has knowledge of the activities of the kommando.
QIt is hard to believe that as the subcommando leader with this outfit, should you not have at least a general knowledge of what was going on in this outfit--did you never hear any of your comrades say that this mass shooting of Jews or for instance of insane has been ruining his nerves, ruining his health--did you never hear such a remark?
AI have heard utterances to this effect on the part of comrades especially members of the Waffen SS said that they would much rather be in the first trenches than here. I asked why, and then they said, "I will not tell you that," this was the gist.
QDid you not guess why, was it so hard for you to understand the situation?
AWell, Mr. Prosecutor, I imagine that for the person who has to carry out an execution, it is very hard to carry it out.
QI do not think that you answered my question. I asked you whether you did not guess from these remarks of your fellow soldiers why they did want to be, rather on the battle field than in this outfit.
INTERPRETER HILDESHEIMER:I would like to say something, Mr. Hochwald. You are listening to the witness without us, and the witness is listening to you without us. You must both wait for the interpretation.
THE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal confirms that.
MR. HOCHWALD:I am sorry, Your Honor. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
QSo you guessed then why the people rather wanted to be on the battlefield than in Einsatzkommando 6, did you not?
AYes, because I assumed that the shooting even of a person who has been convicted is a hard task for these people.
QBut you did know then that people in great numbers were killed by Einsatzkommando 6, did you not?
AI did not learn of any extensive figures, Mr. Prosecutor, as altogether I did not find any total figures.
QAll right, if you turn to Document Book I, the document is on page 86, Your Honors, No. 3340, Prosecution Exhibit 22, page 67 of the German, and I am quoting from page 87 in the middle of the page, second to the last paragraph. It is on page 118 in German--I am sorry. Here it is said that" Einsatzkommando 6 shot in the past weeks 173 political officials, 56 saboteurs and looters, and 149 Jews. And if you turn two paragraphs farther you can read that "During the period from January 10 to 6 February 1942 in Dnjepropetrowsk 17 criminals, 103 communists, 16 partisans, and about 350 Jews were shot. In addition 400 inmates of the Igrin mental hospital and 320 inmates of the Vasilkowska mental hospital were disposed of", which means, of course, that they were also killed. These are great numbers and certainly could not have completely escaped?
AMay I say something to this document, Mr. Prosecutor; first of all, I do not know anything about the content matter and the origin of this document. Secondly, it becomes evident from his document, as you just said yourself, that Einsatzkommando 6 shot in the past weeks 173 political officials, 56 saboteurs and looters, and 149 Jews. The document itself was issued on the 25th of February 1942. I assume, therefore, that it is based on a report of the Einsatzkommando but it is a fact that the Einsatzkommando 6 had already been in Stalino for three months on 25 February, therefore, I do not quite understand how executions in Dnjepropetrowsk could have been carried out by Einsatzkommando 6.
QDid you tell the Tribunal that parts of the commando were scattered around?
AQuite right, Mr. Prosecutor, but Dnjepropetrowsk was after the 15th of November 1941 under German civil administration according to my knowledge, at least. Therefore, from this date on there was a civil administration in Dnjepropetrowsk, and there was a higher SS and police leader and a high commander of the security police and the SD. When these people were installed, I cannot know that, but I do know that the Einsatzkommando 6 on the 12th of November, as I said today, had evacuated Dnjepropetrowsk completely.
QHow do you reconcile then your statement with the document?
AMr. Prosecutor, Dr. Hochwald, I only know, I can only tell you what I know. I cannot tell you anything about this do because I did not make it out, and I do not know who compiled it.
QIs it not ture that the civil administration came about not earlier than in May 1942?
AThat is possible. I cannot judge, but I do know that on the 12th of November the Einsatzkommando 6 had completely evacuated Dnjepropetrowsk. When the commander started his job, I do not know.
QYou made the reports for the commando leader, did you not?
AYes.
QDid you know that the commando leader made reports for the Gruppe?
AYes, I knew that because my reports went through my commando leader to the group. As a noncommissioned officer, I did not hold authority to send a NSD report to the group myself.
QDid you know that in these reports from the commando leader the numbers of executions were given?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor.
QDid you see those reports which were sent from your commander to the Gruppe?
ANo. That was the task of Department IV, Mr. Prosecutor. which turned over their report to the commander and who then passed on the individual reports to the group.
QYou did not know that Department IV made such reports for the commander?
AYes, I did know that they made reports about their activities, but what it said in these reports. I did not know.
QBut Mr. Graf, you have told the Tribunal just a while ago that you knew that people were executed on the basis of the investigations made by Department IV?
AYes Q, Isn't it then true that you.
must have also known that the Department IV, when making these reports reported about these activities, is that right?
AI beg your pardon, I said that I knew that.
QSo you know that Department IV was reporting the executions?
AThat I did know, yes, but I did not know how many and why.
QDid you never ask yourself or somebody else how many people were just killed by Einsatzkommando 6 during the time you were there? Were you never curious to know?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor.
QSo you were not concerned with these questions, were you?
AMr. Prosecutor, I am not - an never was a policeman, Matters connected with police actions were entirely foreign to me. Furthermore, as a noncommissioned officer, I had no authority or right to ask anybody about them.
QAll right, but you also had to evaluate documents, is that right?
AYes, Mr. Prosecutor.
QIf you came into a NKVD building, and you found these documents, didn't you evaluate them; if you got a list of communists, did you not know that you had to hand this list to Department IV so that the people could be shot off--you must have known something about that?
AYes, but may I tell you something? Did you ever see a list made out in Russian?
QNot very often, but I have.
APlease forgive me for putting that question, but you never know whether that is a list of clothing, or whether it is names of towns, or what it is - I certainly didn't know it.
QHow could you then evaluate the document?
AI did not want to cay by that, Mr. Prosecutor, that I evaluated it, that it was my task to secure documents of any kind, and the interpreters who were also there in the commando then had to sift the documents and to pass them on to the competent departments.
QWas that done under your supervision?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor, that was under the order of the commander leader who knew Russian fluently and could read every document.
QThen I am at a loss as to what you had been doing, you couldn't read it, you did not supervise it, so what actually did you do with these documents?
AMay I tell you, Mr. Prosecutor, which were the documents which were of special interest to me. They were not the K NKWD documents. That was the task of Department IV. What was of special interest to me were the documents of the special enterprises. When I arrived at an enterprise at which the offices had not been tidied yet and brought into order, there were a number of documents which c mid interest me for SD reports. With these reports I went to see the Chief and I asked him whether I could have an interpreter and then we sifted the necessary documents together.
QAll right. You came to a factory and there was a list of the higher officials. As the factories, all of them, were state owned in Soviet Russia, it can he presumed that the high officials or the higher employees in this factory were all Bolschevist. Did you hand over, when you got these lists, did you hand over these list to Department IV?
AI know what you mean to get at, Mr. Prosecutor, but I am afraid . I cannot he of any help to you here. I could give you a number of names, names of plant managers, names of former departmental chiefs during the Russian period in municipal and state enterprises who were not only not arrested, but who were re-instated in their former positions. I can say here under oath that the chief mayor of Stalino was registered member of the Communist Party, which meant quite a hit in Russia, because as you know, there were only one and a half to two millions. The task of an SD reporter was not to safeguard people. That was again the task of Department IV. My task was, on the contrary, to intervene that skilled labor and experts were employed, even if they were politically not quite sound.
QAnd how was it with Jews? If your skilled specialists were Jews, what happened to them?
AAgain I cannot oblige you, Mr. Prosecutor. It is a fact that in the territory around Stalino 95% of the craftsmen, that is, also specialists, were Jews, and a mining enterprise one cannot reinstate without craftsmen. Therefore, Wehrmacht agencies, as well as industrial enterprise which interested themselves in this, had to go on employing a number of Jewish specialists.
QAnd how was it with the Jews in Gorlowka, for instance?
AGorlowka, in Gorlowka, there was a subkommando of Einsatzkommando VI, but I can't say anything about it, because I have never been a member of this subkommando in Gorlowka and because the subkommando, chief, who I think was an Obersturmfuehrer or an Untersturmfuehrer, never told me anything about shootings that had taken place there.
QBut you were in Stalino, were you not?
AYes.
QCan you tell the Tribunal how many Jews approximately were in this city?
ANo, I am not in the position to do see because it would be an estimate and that would be arbitrary.
QCan you possibly say a percentage, whether every tenth person was Jewish or every fifteenth person was Jewish, or something like that.
AI can only tell you one thing, Mr. Prosecutor, that through the ceasing of the attack of the German troops in the Dnjepr area and through the extensive radio propoganda on the part of the Red Army which II listened to myself that there were hardly any Jews, or no big number of Jews in the Stalino area. Stalino itself was a town which had only come into existence during the last 20 years, a peasant village of about 1,500 inhabitants, and which grew within a very short time into 250,000 to 300,00 inhabitants.
QDid you know that the Jews of Stalino were killed by Einsatzkommando VI?
ANo.
QHow could that have escaped you?
AI said this morning, Mr. Prosecutor, it was my task to write the SD reports.
QAll right. That I know. However, you have been living in this outfit.
If you would turn to Document Book II-C and I am quoting from page 60. This is Document 3240, Prosecution Exhibit No. 80, on page 65 of the German, under the heading, "page 5 of the original," Your Honors, there it is said in Stalino nearby 500 persons were executed, 369 of them Jews. Would you call that a mass execution, Herr Graf?
A.Yes.
QHow was it possible that such an execution was carried out by your unit and you did not know about it?
ADr. Hochwald, may I draw your attention to the fact that in this document it says, I quote, "As a result of the measures carried out by the Einsatzkommando 6, the localities Gorlowka and Makejewka are now free of Jewish components." These places were the garrisons of two subkommandos, Gorlowka and Makejewka.
QAll right, but read on now the next sentence.
A "A small number who remained in Stalino will be resettled as soon as weather conditions permit. Here a total of 493 persons were executed." It does not become evident from this document in what locality these people were shot.
QHerr Graf, would you read again the last two sentences of this paragraph? Isn't it absolutely clear that these 493 persons were killed in Stalino? Here a total of 493 persons were executed.
AI cannot comment on this document as such but I understand it means the sector of the Einsatzkommando EK 6.
QWill you tell the Tribunal -
AI said that I can't comment on this document as such.
QSo you say that all though you were 1 1/2 years with Einsatzkommando VI you did not know that the main task or that it was one of the tasks of this Einsatzkommando to kill people in great numbers?
ANo, I did not know then, Mr. Prosecutor.
MR.HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I have no further questions.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
QWitness, a compilation has been drawn up of the number of the executions performed by Einsatzkommando VI.
I don't know that I will take the trouble of reading each item, but, if you have gone through the document books, you will see Einsatzkommando VI repeated 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12 - 13 times. Have you found those references in the document books?
AI have in the document books-- anything about this episode.
QWell even if you had returned several days after these episodes occurred, in view of their public nature. it would be rather difficult for you not to know about them, especially in view of the fact that you were charged with writing reports on the morale of the population. Isn't that logical?
AYes, your Honor, but, if I may emphasize to Your Honors, this point, in my opinion, it can only be a matter of individual people and such an episode does not stay in one's memory so much as a larger matter. Of 20 or 30 persons in any case, I did not hear anything about it.
QCertainly you do not mean to convey the idea that a procession of individuals taken to be killed through the streets would not make an impression upon those who saw them passing?
AYes, Your Honor. That would have made a lasting impression on the population and would have had some response possibly, but I do not know anything about this incident and therefore I can say nothing about it.
THE PRESIDENT:Before we adjourn for the day. I would like to ask defense counsel to see to it that their document books are submitted and those who have document books ready for presentation should be in court tomorrow to present them, because after we will have completed the Graf case, we will not immediately take up the cases of Rasch and Strauch, because there is still some medical examination pending in those two cases. They will, however, come immediately after the documents have been presented.
The Tribunal will now be in recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 8 January 1948, at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Otto Ohlendorf, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 8 January, 1948, 0930-1630.
Justice Musmanno, presiding.
THE MARSHAL:The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in this Court.
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Belzer, do you have any more questions to put to the defendant?
DR. BELZER:I have just one more question int the redirect examination, Your Honor.
MATHIAS OTTO GRAF - Resumed REDIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. BELZER:
QWitness, in the cross examination you were charged on various occasions yesterday that you as a non-commissioned officer in the Commando HK 6, that after all you held quite a high rank. Now, II would like you to tell the Tribunal on who had a lower rank then you in the HK 6.
AA number of enlisted men of the Waffen SS, otherwise, nobody.
QIs it not correct that even the driver of the car in which you drove along during the advance in the East had a higher rank than you had?
AYes. He was a Hauptscharfuehrer.
DR. BELZER:I have no further questions in that case. BY THE PRESIDENT:
QWitness, we had asked you yesterday afternoon in how many engagements this Einsatzkommando 6 had participated end we had before us a list - yes, Judge Speight has handed me a list here indicating 13 different reports which tell of executions conducted by Einsatzkommando 6, and I think you have confirmed that there were 13 reports.
AYes, Your Honor.
QIt seems rather extraordinary, don't you think, that with your being a member of this kommando that period of time that you wouldn't know of these executions or most of them.
AYour Honor, as I have said in my direct examination and as I told the prosecution yesterday, when I was cross examined, I did know about executions, but what I did not know was an exact figure, and I didn't know what extensions these executions took because that was not my sphere of activity.
QWell, you know of executions, and it is not expected that you would know the exact number of people that were executed, but you knew also, did you not, that Jews were being executed just because they were Jews?
ANo, Your Honor. During the time of my assignment I did get told know that.
QWell, that is what seems just a little extraordinary, that about person of your intelligence and of your more or less daily association with the men who were engaged in this week, in this activity, that some time or other you wouldn't learn that they were being called upon to shoot and liquidate people merely because they were of a certain race or nationality.
AMay I give an explanation concerning this, Your Honor -- may II make an explanation concerning this?
QYes, certainly.
AEK 6 had sub--commandos at any time.
Q "At any time", is that the translation?
INTERPRENENT: "At everytime."
A who sometimes were 200 kilometers from thee H.Q. of the EK 6, and the existence of which I was never aware. Furthermore, EK 6 advancing passed through the most important industrial territory in Russia and worked there. We, for instance, if in one report, as week saw yesterday, there were locations mentioned, like Wokolowka and Makajewka, those were garrisons of sub-commandos of EK 6, if in fact these are mentioned, these are not small villages, but they are towns with more than 100,000 inhabitants.
I had nothing to do with these sub-commandos and , quite honestly, I did not interest myself in what these men did who mainly consisted of people from the Department IV and that, Your Honor, is the reason I do not have this knowledge which you expect me to have.
Q Just what were your duties with the commando?
AI was departmental expert III, that is, SD reports, and just for the reason that our commando was stationed in industrial territories only which work was confronted with more problems of every kind, more problems then there would have been in an agricultural neighbourhood, the tasks of Department III were many-fold. We had a lot of work. our work was very extensive, and I did not only have to visit the German informers during the day but also in the evenings in order to get my material.
QWere you with the commando in October 1941
AYes, Your Honor.
ANow, we have one report here which says "On 13 October 1941 approximately 10,000 Jews shot in" and then we have the name which Mr. Hildesheimer and I have difficulty in pronouncing.
ADnjepropetrowsk.
Q "that because of an extreme shortage of skilled laborers some Jews had to be kept alive temporarily, up to the date of the report a further 1,000 were shot. Steps are being taken for the extermination of 1,500 inmates of the provincial lunatic asylum." Now, this entire picture is one of such enormity that it seems a little difficulty to comprehend how you would not be aware of it. 10,000 Jews shot, then preparation being made for the liquidation of 1500 inmates of a lunatic asylum which in itself is a rather grotesque procedure at best. And then some were being reserved for your field reporting on industry. How could you now know about this?
AMay I point out to you, Your Honor, that in my direct examination as well as in the cross examination, and as far as I remember, even in my interrogation, I said that I learned of this special action, which it is in this case, it is in fact a special operation on the part of the SS - of the higher S and police leader - and that from the population.
QWell then you did know that Jews were shot because they were Jews
AYour Honor, I wouldn't like to express it as precisely as that. I heard voices within the population, mainly officials of the new Ukrainian agencies, and in accordance with my duty, I reported about these to my commando chief because that was part of my tasks to reported about the atmosphere and the attitude of the population, and Dr. Kroeger, my commando chief told me then that that had been a special operation ordered by the higher SS and police leader and that no single men of his commando had participated in that, and so I had to satisfy myself.
QYou did know then that Jews were executed because they were Jews
AYour Honor, I knew that Jews were shot, but the reason why they were shot, I did not know.
QHow can you explain a German soldier, who is more or less a commando of yours, going out of a day and finding himself engaged in shooting Jews, shooting human beings, and then coming back and not discussing it, especially when he has been engaged in the shooting of great numbers, that would be the most natural thing for this man to come back and make some remark about the terrible task to which he had been committed that day. It doesn't sound reasonable that he wouldn't talk about it.
AThat is true, Your Honor, but may I draw your attention to the fact, especially in this case, that they were not comrades who carried out this police operation. According to my knowledge, the higher SS and police leader with his units at that time was in Dnjeprpropetrowsk and - I am sorry - in Kriwoij-Rog , that was mere than a hundred kilometers from Dnjeprpropetrowsk.
I don't know what kind of men they were. I don't know who they were. I never saw them, and, therefore, I never talked to them, and I certainly could not get any knowledge about this terrible happening. It isn't that these were men of our commando; if that had been the case, in that case I would admit that the men certainly would have been excited about it and would have reacted accordingly in some form or other.
QWell, let's take up Operational Situation Report 94 dated 25 September '41. Were you a member of the commando in August of '41
AYes, Your Honor. In August 1941 I was with that liaison officer AOK 17.
Q.Now, I will read under the heading, "Einsatzkommando 6". "During the period 1 to 13 September 1941 executed 60 person. Group staff was able to liquidate during the last days 4 political officials and informers of the NKWD, 6 associal elements and gypsies, and 55 Jews." Then comes this most appalling statement, "These units shot a total of 44,125 persons in August, mostly Jews." Now. does it accord with -
A.May I ask what document book that is, and what number of document that is because I do not have it in front of me
A.Yes. It is in II-C, page 62, and the number of the document is No. 3146. That is page 62 of the English, of course.
A.I have it, your Honor. In the same document it says under Roman figure I, "Locations: EK 6 is stationed in Kriwoij-Rog, where also the higher SS and police leader has moved." And then on page 15 of the original from which your Honor has been quoting, I assume -
Q.Yes, that is right.
A.When looking through this document, your Honor, I have tried very hard to understand it because, first of all, I cannot imagine that the EK 6 had a group staff, but here it says, "Functionaries of the group staff could execute 6 associal elements, 4 political officials and informers of the NKWD, during these last days and 56 Jews --." According to my personal opinion, when this document was made out in Kiev, a mistake must have been made and the man who made out this report probably mixed it all up because EK 6 did not have a group staff. I could not imagine who that could have been. "Group Staff" is only -- with the group -- and I am not aware of the fact that the group staff was KriwoijRog, I don't know.
At any rate, I did not see it because, as I said, too, Your Honor, because I was not in Kriwoij-Rog in August; and then it says in the next sentence in German of the original, "actions of the higher SS and police leader, in August, altogether 44, 125 persons, mostly Jews, were executed." This sentence I am even more unable to understand. First of all, I do not think that at the time there were more than 30,000 people all in all, in Kriwoij-Rog. Secondly, it was shortly after advance; it was frontal territory; fighting still took place there, even in the vicinity of Kriwoij-Rog there was hardly anybody, or hardly anybody at all in September. I saw it myself, for instance, that we had moved to a village and there were about 15 or 20 people in that village. The others had escaped because they didn't want to be between the tow front lines and be exposed to bomb attacks, and it was only later that the population moved back. I can, therefore, not imagine where the higher SS and police leader should have taken these 44,000 people from. As far as I can see, this is quite impossible. Then I may draw the attention of your Honor to the fact that the sphere of activity of the Higher SS and pllice leader is mostly comprised of a whole territory or country like the Ukraine or at least a number of provinces within the Ukraine. These people could have been shot 2 or 3 or 4 hundred kilometers away from that place where I was at the time, and as far as I can see, your Honor, in the territory while in Kriwoij-Rog, which is iron ore territory, industrial territory, therefore, there were very few Jews. Therefore, I can only repeat that I cannot understand this document, and I do not know how it was compiled.
Q.In quoting from this document we did not intend to assert that it established beyond the peradventure of doubt that the Einsatzkommando 6 had killed 44,125 persons.
A.I understood that, your Honor.
Q.But only to call to your attention that somewhere in your vicinity great numbers of Jews were being liquidated. Now, even if we say it was 200 kilometers away, that is not so distant that knowledge of so appalling an episode would not filter through, especially in a military time when there is constant movement and traffic, and soldiers talk. What we are calling to your attention is the difficulty of grasping how a person of your obvious intelligence could fail to know that there was a widespread operation which called for the extermination of a race. That is what we can't quite grasp.