That is why it is irrelevant to whom the visitors would have
THE PRESIDENT: Well, haven't many of the defendants testified that they were concerned about submitting reports of the morale of the population?
Haven't several of the defendants and hasn't your own defendant testified to that -- your own client?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, now, listen, Dr. Gawlik. Dr. Gawlik, if you reflect on just what happened here, won't you conclude that Mr. Walton help you generally?
Wasn't he sort of confirming what you have been insisting morale in the population?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Mr. Walton in this instance was really helping you, wasn't he?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, that's why I consider this question irrelevant.
THE PRESIDENT: That's right. You should consider it very good.
DR. GAWLIK: That is not the point, Your Honor, in the trial it depends
THE PRESIDENT: Well, now, listen, Dr. Gawlik. Do you regard the which a certain Einsatzkommando is operating important?
Do you regard that important?
DR. GAWLIK: For the work of the Einsatzgruppe, yes, but from a legal
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to exclude then everything that your client said about that?
DR. GAWLIK: No, not at all, Your Honor, not at all.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then, that is one of your defenses, isn't it?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, and Mr. Walton was talking about that very thing,
DR. GAWLIK: That is just why this is irrelevant. It has already been clarified.
I do not see the purpose of the question.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you object to its being corroborated and helping your client a little bit?
DR. GAWLIK: In this case during the questioning of this witness, it is irrelevant.
I consider this question in this particular case concerning
THE PRESIDENT: Was it irrelevant when your client spoke about it?
DR. GAWLIK: Not in this case, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Then, why is it irrelevant now? It is still the same
DR. GAWLIK: I said, Your Honor, this is accumulative proof claimed
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then do we understand you, Dr. Gawlik, that you don't want another word said in this trial which my help your client a little bit more ?
DR. GAWLIK: I do not start from the assumption that questions by the
THE PRESIDENT: No, but if accidentally he helps you, you don't have any quarrel with Mr. Walton, do you, about that?
Dr. GAWLIK: If the Tribunal holds the opinion that the answering
MR. WALTON: In order that I might have Dr. Gawlik feel a little better, I'll repeat my first general question, since we have given an Q. (By Mr. Walton) If the kommando leader or a visitor came to upon yourself to refer him to the man who could help him certainly more quickly than the General could?
perhaps Dr. Gawlik won't object to that form of the question.
THE PRESIDENT: I think upon reconsideration now, he didn't object to the former question.
MR. WALTON: All right, Sir.
A. If a visitor had come, Mr. Walton, in every case I would have informed Herr Ohlendorf who was there what he wanted to discuss and then Herr Ohlendorf could have told me, "I have not time. Take the man to Herr Seibert, to Herr Ulrich," or to any other man. That would have depended on what the man wanted to discuss, but in every case I would have asked Herr Ohlendorf first. I would have told him about this man, even in the danger of being thrown out by Herr Ohlendorf myself. He wouldn't have done that at all, but I would not have assumed the authority and not let him see him on my own authority.
Q. Suppose General Ohlendorf arrived at his headquarters early that morning and he said, "Schubert, you are like St. Peter, standing outside the gates of heaven keeping them safe against the world. I am very busy this morning. I don't want to be disturbed. I have a lot of important things to do." Just about the time General Ohlendorf gets seated at his desk and deep in work, here comes a visitor. He wants to see General Ohlendorf. You question him about the nature of his business and you find out it is not quite as important as he thought it was and furthermore other people could handle the matter beside General Ohlendorf. Would you still go in, in spite of what General Ohelndorf said and disturb him and ask him if he wants to see this visitor or would you refer him to the one he wants to see?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, if I received these definite instructions to stop seeing visitors from seeing Herr Ohlendorf, I would have taken the man to Herr Seibert and said "This man really wants to see the boss, but the Chief has said he does not want to be disturbed and he is busy, would you please deal with the man." That would be the next best thing to do.
there was an unfortunate choice of language by Mr. Wartenberg used in your reference to Mr. Seibert and that you meant to say that Mr. staff.
Now, that is correct, is it not?
A I did not hear I am sorry. -- I think it is all right now.
INTERPRETER: Would you repeat the question, please?
Q (By Mr. Walton) Yes, in your direct testimony yesterday, I which Mr. Wartenberg put in your affidavit; that what you meant to say was that Mr. Seibert was deputy for the Group Staff and not just Deputy of General Ohlendorf.
Did you make that statement yesterday, or words to that effect?
A Yes. Mr. Prosecutors I said that Herr Seibert was the Deputy affidavits while you were at Oberoesel?
D down through the kommando level?
A I don't remember any details, just now, but I did discuss it.
I was asked about it; What were the functions of the various officers?
That is 18 months ago. Now, I don't remember the details.
it appeared on such an affidavit, wouldn't you?
A Of course, Mr. Prosecutor.
MR. WALTON: Page, will you hand this to him?
(By Mr. Walton)
A That is my signature, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q And what date is given on that document?
Q December 1945? You were at Oberoesel at that time?
Q Now, what is that document, Witness?
A May I look at it first?
Q Certainly. Certainly.
Q And that is an affidavit on that subject by yourself?
Q What title did you give the Defendant Seibert? What's on that affidavit as Seibert's title?
A It says here as title of Herr Seibert, "Permanent Deputy."
Q "Permanent Deputy"?
Q So 18 months apart you call Herr Seibert "the permanent deputy of General Ohlendorf" and yesterday you said that you didn't mean to say that, but you meant to say a deputy in the staff.
Now that is twice that you have called him "the permanent deputy."
Why did you change from your affidavit yesterday?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I did not think of this affidavit and this wording "permanent deputy" which I had used before.
I didn't think of because this wording, "permanent deputy" in my opinion can only refer to
Q The way you have got it written up there it means "permanent Deputy," for all questions. You didn't specify that he was permanent deputy for the staff. You didn't specify that he was permanent deputy for economic questions. You just said the all-inclusive term,"personal deputy". Why didn't you make that addition to that paper?
A Mr. Prosecutor, because at the time I did not know that possibly this statement might be misunderstood. If I had known that and if I had had the opportunity to explain it in more detail, I could not have explained it any differently at the time than I could have done yesterday here.
MR. WALTON: Page, will you return the copy? is being prepared for introduction into evidence. In view of the fact that there was no force here that purpose during the holidays, I am forced to be a little late. I trust that I shall offer this into evidence before the close of the cross-examination and certainly before the close of the day. I would like to reserve the right to introduce it formally into evidence at a later time.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you have a copy that you can hand to Dr. Koessl so that he can be informed of its contents?
MR. WALTON: I am sorry, Sir. That will come down with the others. I have only the copy which is my own. I have a copy, but not that I can serve on him.
THE PRESIDENT: Why not let him look at it even now.
Q (By Mr. Walton) Can you remember any orders given by Seibert that resulted in the execution of a person or persons?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I do not know of any such orders.
Q Could he have given such orders unknown to you? done without my knowledge.
Q The possibility exists, though, doesn't it?
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think that's a fair question. He says he doesn't know. He can't say what Seibert could have done. Seibert could have done anything and he could have done nothing.
MR. WALTON: I withdraw the question, Your Honor.
Q (By Mr. Walton) Was it known ahead of time in Group Headquarters that an execution was scheduled for a future time?
A I don't quite understand that question. I don't quite get the sense. May I have it again, please? later or a day later an execution was scheduled to take place at a certain time and on a certain location?
A Whether it was known in the Einsatzgruppe? May I remind you of the example I gave you yesterday? But on the whole, the Einsatzgruppe only heard about executions after they had been carried out and they heard this from the kommando; in this particular case which I mentioned yesterday there were special circumstances and therefore it had been known before.
Q Now, here's the question that I should like you to answer: Was such information of general knowledge to the staff or was this information restricted to only certain ones of the staff? one case I mentioned.
Q Either one. What I had in mind was when advance information about an execution came into Staff Headquarters, I would like to know whether such information was known to everyone in the staff or only to the particular persons in the staff.
A Mr. Prosecutor, this question I cannot answer. I never heard what might have been known. I don't know whether everyone in the staff heard about.
Q Well, I'll amend the question. Was such information known by all the officers in the staff, the SS officers, or was it known only to General Ohlendorf and yourself? except for the example in Simferopol, which I mentioned myself yesterday, I do not know any definite case where the Einsatzgruppe was informed beforehand of an execution. I really cannot say if such a case had occurred who, apart from Herr Ohlendorf, would have heard of it. Unforunately, I am not able to do this.
Q I think you have answered the question. You have in effect said that as a general thing you only know of executions after they happened. However, if anyone would have known of their scheduled time the likelihood is that if General Ohlendorf knew and certainly a very few other people, possibly Ohlendorf himself alone, is that what you mean to say?
A Mr. Prosecutor, theoretically the possibility exists that others apart from Herr Ohlendorf heard about it. For example, it is imaginable that in this case Herr Ohlendorf informed one of the officers on the staff to inspect, but it is merely an assumption, a theoretical assumption. I don't know any definite case except the case I described yesterday.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, do you think this might be a suitable time at which to have a recess?
MR. WALTON: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess fifteen minutes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(recess)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. LUMMERT: Dr. Lummert for the defendant Blume. Your Honor, I ask the defendant Blume be excused from the session this afternoon and tomorrow morning so that he can prepare his documents.
THE PRESIDENT: In accordance with the request of counsel, the defendant Blume will be excused from attendance in Court this afternoon and tomorrow morning.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q Mr. Schubert, when General Ohlendorf ordered you to make the inspection of the execution which you saw in the neighborhood of Simferopol you did not think it was an unusual occasion to receive such an order from him, did you?
A Well, I may correct this first of all. Herr Ohlendorf did not give me the order to carry out inspections of executions as it was translated but he gave me one specific order of one inspection and that I could have thought it funny I don't understand that at all.
MR. WALTON: The translation came through "funny".
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that is used in the sense of strange.
MR. WALTON: Well, my question to him was that when he received this order from General Ohlendorf he didn't think it was a particularly unusual occurrence and I didn't quite understand his answer. If the Tribunal is satisfied
THE PRESIDENT: No, you may put the question again. BY MR. WALTON:
Q Mr. Schubert, did you think that General Ohlendorf's order to you about this execution was an unusual one?
Q Did it occur to you why you were selected to watch this execution?
A That wasn't very difficult for me, Mr. Prosecutor. There wasn't any one else there at that time. All the other people were occupied in carrying out the execution and Herr Ohlendorf had no other choice but to give the order to me. sometimes were the personal representative of General Ohlendorf, weren't you?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I would like to draw a clear distinction here between the purely legalistic term deputy and the fact that anyone whom Herr Ohlendorf sent anywhere is sort of a delegate or representative. One can call it a deputy but it is not the same.
Q I don't know what the German word was but certainly for this one that is true, isn't it?
A I didn't consider myself as such. I got an order from Mr. Ohlen dorf.
I carried out this order but I never was the personal representa
Q Now, witness, I don't wish to argue with you but you remarked that execution as General Ohlendorf's representative.
Now my next question
A I am sorry, but I cannot agree with you. I am of a different opinion.
I was not the representative of Ohlendorf the way you under stand it.
I was sent out to carry an order and I did so and I cannot explain it any other way.
Furthermore, and I would like to mention That's why I got it and otherwise I wouldn't have gotten this order.
Q We will return to this question in a minute. Did you ever carry out any orders given to you by Seibert?
business of the group?
A I don't know what you mean - general business of the group. I can't quite comprehend it.
Do you mean the orderly room?
Q No. Did these orders ever affect these orders of Seibert ever affect the group as a whole?
A Certainly not the entire group. They could have only affected happened every day in the staff?
A I don't know any such orders.
Q Did any of Seibert's orders ever concern security questions?
office, or what?
Q I mean the security -- Well, either one. Answer them both. Did they ever concern security measures of the office?
A There were no such orders. I don't know of any such orders.
Einsatzgruppe D?
A I don't know of any such orders either.
Q Did they ever concern security questions of the group staff?
A I think that question was put once before. I cannot imagine anything by this and I don't know any such orders.
I don't know
Q The answer then is you don't know of any such orders. Did they ever concern executive measures to be taken?
different times?
Q All right. Now then let's turn to Document Book I, page 108 in the English text, 141 in the German text.
It is your affidavit again, Document NO-3055 and is Prosecution Exhibit 28.
Will you indicate of General Ohlendorf to be his official witness at this execution.
Is that right?
That's paragraph 4, Your Honors.
A Mr. Prosecutor, I didn't leave Simferopol for this occasion. It says here I went into the Gypsy quarter of the city - that is within the city. headquarters for there? Kommando 11-B on the way to the Gypsy quarter?
A No. I had no order to do so. from your own office, is that correct? your headquarters? thing you saw was that German personnel were engaged in loading these people on trucks, is that correct? ing at this place. That is what I had to inspect. There was a roll call and then in certain intervals they were transported away from there by trucks. I was to supervise this incident.
Q Did you get there in time?
A May I say something more. It was translated "supervise". My whole struggle is to make that clear. I apologize, but it should be: "to look at". I was to look at it. loading site what was the first thing you saw - what was the first thing that caught your eye. Now you have answered that question and I accept your amendment that the first thing you saw was the roll call being taken, that is correct, is it not?
ed there, that is the first thing I saw. Then there were some trucks there. There were guards and I also saw how people were loaded on trucks and how the trucks left.
Q Were you there when the first truck was loaded with these people?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, did I understand you to say that he said there was a roll call.
MR. WALTON: Your Honor, I suppose we must check back with the court stenographer.
THE PRESIDENT: Well in his enumeration now of the things which he saw the roll call was not mentioned. BY MR. WALTON:
Q I will ask the question again. Was there a roll call taken of these people gathered at this loading site before they climbed on the trucks?
A I said that these people's names were read off. Well, that's a roll call. I don't know whether you call it such but it was a control which was carried out. it in the negative - were you there when the first truck was loaded? Did I understand you to say you were not?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I knew that some transports had already left this place and what I saw was not the beginning of it. I came in the middle of it.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, do you know who made up the list which was being read?
A I cannot say, Your Honor, I don't know. BY MR. WALTON:
Q Now, Mr. Schubert, about how many German personnel were engaged in loading these people on these trucks? too high but approximately 20.
Q Was Dr. Braune there when you got there?
A No, I didn't see Dr. Braune on that day at all, When I returned from this order to the Group Staff I saw Dr. Braune again because Kommando 11-B was in the same building with us. yesterday in your direct examination who was in charge of this operation?
of Kommando 11-B. SS Hauptsturmfuehrers were present. What were their names if you know?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I am not sure whether I wouldn't give a wrong name. I thought that one of these captains was Captain Gabel, commanding officer of the Police Company, but it is possible that I am wrong and that it might have been his successor, the name of whom I don't recall. I don't remember this fact so exactly that I could take it upon my conscience to say Gabel or someone else. Perhaps both of them were there but I cannot say with certainty. Hauptsturmfuehrer? of Kommando 10-A which had been in Simferopol from the beginning and later was subordinated to Kommando 11-B but unfortunately I cannot give you the name of this man. I don't remember. present at the loading site when you got there?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor -was present during the loading phase while you were there? lieutenant of the police and there was another SS-first lieutenant and I think those were the two officers who were present at that place.
Q Now, Mr. Schubert, was there an officer in charge of these enlisted men who were loading these people on the truck? there, at that moment, in any case they were under command of the 1st lieutenant of the Police Company.
of the Police Company?
people to the execution site?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot tell you exactly. I didn't see all the trucks at Once.
But I recall the fact that the Army furnished us g hundred people in the trucks and get them away from the loading site?
Approximately hour long, how much time did it take?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot tell you this from my own knowledge. I wasn't there during the entire time of the transportation.
I was left this place.
These vehicles were sent off in intervals. I can not say how long a time the entire loading process took.
I can merely truck?
A I cannot even answer that question. I merely saw trucks that left the place and I can't say whether a truck that had returned was carrying a load.
I can't really say.
the truck toke off from the time it was empty until it was filled?
A I have no possibility of estimating. You can do it quickly Or you can do it slowly.
I don't know how long it takes until you have read go.
It all depends how the these things are carried out.
Q Were these Gypsy transported in open trucks or closed trucks?
Q How many guards were on each truck besides the driver?
there was an assistant driver. This was customary in the Army and
Q Was he armed?
Q What arms did he carry?
A Certainly that varied. He might have carried a pistol, he might
Q Did these Gypsies enter these trucks Willingly?
A I don't think that they went there gladly in any case.
Q I don't mean that - did these guards have to force them up the up the ramp and into the truck?
their own power, in that right?
THE PRESIDENT: Did the Gypsies know at that time what was going to happen?
A I don't think so, Your Honor, at that point they didn't.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, when you remarked that they didn't do it gladly
A No, Your Honor, their fate was not quite certain. It was uncertain and I meant to express this uncertainty.
They knew some change was to BY MR. WALTON: Witness, how long did you personally remain at this loading site in the Gypsy quarter?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
A. In any case I was not there longer than twenty minutes.
It was sufficient for me to stay there a short time
Q. Now, Mr. Schubert, you said when you first left
A. I drove, Mr. Prosecutor, but I needed five minutes
Q. Oh, a five-minute drive in an automobile?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Well then, you probably have answered my next question.
I presume you went in your own car from the loading site.
You had your own transportation between these two Places, did you not?
A. I had a car of the office. One was assigned to me for that occasion.
I used it.
Q. Now, did your take the same route that the trucks execution site?
A. I cannot tell you definitely because I didn't road.
There was no other possibility.
Q. Do you know whether or not these people created Execution site?
A. I know nothing about that, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. On the arrival of the trucks at the execution site, who placed these people in the anti-tank ditch?
A. Those were members of this execution kommando who had been ordered to carry out the execution.
They were mem formation, SD, or state police men of Einsatzgruppe D.
Q. What was the rank of the man in charge of the execution kommando?
A. That was Sturmbannfuehrer Schulz.
Q. And it was at his command that these people Were placed in the anti-tank ditch, is that right?
A. Well, he certainly didn't order it again and again in every case, out he distributed the men under his command for definite jobs and these officers and men then carried out those jobs.
Q. Now, this execution squad, I believe you state in your affidavit, were armed with automatic weapons and rifles, is that right?
A. They were armed with rifles and partly With machine pistols, yes. I don't know whether I said in the affidavit - yes, yes, so it says here.
Q. Now, was each truckload of these gypsies executed on arrival?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I myself saw only one such transport out I may assume that every preceding and further transport took place in the same way as the one that I Saw.
Q. Did you, on arrival at the execution site, get out of your car, walk over to the anti-tank ditch and look in it?
A. Later, out first of all I stopped at the road and saw something different which took place there, namely the way they were unloaded and the way the valuables were registered.
Q. We will come back to the valuables in just a moment. You stated that you saw these people unloaded. Was there any disorder among the truckload of people when they were ordered to get out of the truck at the execution site?
A. No.